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View Full Version : OK so how true and in the gray is this?


masterbush
06-24-2010, 2:57 PM
Not trying to oust Canman but if this is legal where do I find my FFL willing to accept and do the transfer? Also according to appendix B it says all panther arms and for Armalite it shows AR-10 all???

This always seems the point of the discussion and the same discussion I've had with my FFL and some other people who deal with this stuff.

It's definitely not a category 1 or category 3 issue...right. Is it a category 2 banned firearm? Let's look at some of the wording in Category 2.

(Straight from the DOJ AW Guide)

"AK and AR-15 Series Weapons (Kasler v. Lockyer)
This California Supreme Court decision took effect on August 16, 2000. Under this decision, any firearm of
minor variation of the AK or AR-15 type (i.e., series weapon), regardless of the manufacturer, is a Category 2
(Kasler v. Lockyer) assault weapon under the original Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989.
All AK and AR-15 series weapons had to be possessed before August 16, 2000 and must have been
registered on or before January 23, 2001. The Department of Justice is required to identify these series
weapons and includes in this publication a listing of identified AK and AR-15 series weapons."

Is this a "minor variation?" No it's a totally different series of weapon...it's an AR-10 series. If it is a "variation" it's a major one!

"Caliber has no bearing on a weapon’s status as a series weapon and should be disregarded when making an
identification. For example, upper receiver conversion kits are available to convert almost any AR series
weapon into .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 7.62 X 39 mm, 9 mm, 10 mm, or .223 caliber."

Okay so caliber has no bearing on AR-series weapons because "upper receiver conversion kits" are available in almost any caliber. It's not an upper conversion....It's an entirely different lower and upper....mags don't interchange...very little actually interchanges. NO WHERE does the AW-Guide mention "AR-10" series weapons at all under category 2.

DOJ hasn't come out and condoned the sale of DPMS .308 lowers, but I have'nt seen them condone the sale of bullet buttons yet either.

So....yes it looks like DPMS AR-15 series (.223 and all the caliber conversions associated with .223 lowers) are banned by name in Category 2, but this is a DPMS AR-10 series rifle in .308.

Canman

CSACANNONEER
06-24-2010, 3:01 PM
Transfer what? Almost every FFL in Ca will transfer AR/AK type firearms. There are still a few living in denial but, most have finally seen the light. So, where do you live? I'm sure we can point you towards a local FFL.

Dr Rockso
06-24-2010, 3:02 PM
Where do you live? Most OLL-experienced FFLs would have no problem transferring a off-list DPMS AR-10.

thedrickel
06-24-2010, 3:03 PM
He's talking about a DPMS .308 lower, if I'm not mistaken. If it says "Panther" on it, regardless of whether it's an AR-15 or AR-10 pattern lower, I would stay away. Read the last line of the canman quote.

Dr Rockso
06-24-2010, 3:13 PM
He's talking about a DPMS .308 lower, if I'm not mistaken. If it says "Panther" on it, regardless of whether it's an AR-15 or AR-10 pattern lower, I would stay away. Read the last line of the canman quote.

Ah, I get it...it says 'DPMS: Panther (all)'...I'd steer clear. Funny, though, since there are other AR-10s on the list in Appendix B of the flow chart, yet the DOJ guide refers to them inclusively as AR-15 style.

shark92651
06-24-2010, 3:14 PM
CanMan is the one selling the rifle, so I don't think that is the argument he is trying to make. His point is that it is not an "AR-15 series" weapon, which it is not, and therefore it should be OK to purchase it. I think he is confusing Cat 1 and Cat 2, however, since "the list" contains the Cat 1 AWs. Series 2 designation is pretty much moot since the Harrott decision. Still, if it says "DPMS Panther" on it I would stay away.

eighteenninetytwo
06-24-2010, 3:20 PM
I bought a DPMS M4 but simply sent the seller an RRA lower to change it out as part of the deal. Nil problemo.

masterbush
06-24-2010, 3:26 PM
I have OLL, just wondering about the DPMS panther lowers. Just found it odd that you could be buying a (Highly)potential AW in these forums. Even if you look at the list for the AK AR15 it still lists AR-10 which is no minor variation, so when they say DPMS Panther All does it just apply to the AR15 or to the LR 308 as well?

Finally why doesnt DPMS just get rid of the name Panther???? Who calls then that anyways?

thayne
06-24-2010, 3:34 PM
"AK and AR-15 Series Weapons (Kasler v. Lockyer)
This California Supreme Court decision took effect on August 16, 2000. Under this decision, any firearm of
minor variation of the AK or AR-15 type (i.e., series weapon), regardless of the manufacturer, is a Category 2
(Kasler v. Lockyer) assault weapon under the original Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989.
All AK and AR-15 series weapons had to be possessed before August 16, 2000 and must have been
registered on or before January 23, 2001. The Department of Justice is required to identify these series
weapons and includes in this publication a listing of identified AK and AR-15 series weapons."

DOJ needs to update their web site. This is no longer valid after Kasler v. Lockyer. Only thos listed by make and model are banned.

CSACANNONEER
06-24-2010, 3:39 PM
DOJ needs to update their web site. This is no longer valid after Kasler v. Lockyer. Only thos listed by make and model are banned.

They are planning to do it in two weeks.

Either that or, they will never do it since, it is still part of the written law. We all know that it is not valid anymore but, it's still exactly how the law reads.

masterbush
06-24-2010, 3:45 PM
OK well is Panther the model or is it LR-308?

I just dont get how Armalite, DPMS, Colt, and KAC dont join forces and take the state to court for allowing dirrect copies of their work to be sold and curbing they're profits when they are no different.

If anything good has come of this stuff I guess would be that we have fine companies stepping up in quality and ingenuity.

shark92651
06-24-2010, 3:54 PM
They are planning to do it in two weeks.

Either that or, they will never do it since, it is still part of the written law. We all know that it is not valid anymore but, it's still exactly how the law reads.

I think they are waiting for us to update the OLL FAQ first.

ar15barrels
06-24-2010, 7:36 PM
They are planning to do it in two weeks.

http://www.neiltendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/total-recall-two-weeks-490.jpg

mycrstuff
06-24-2010, 7:46 PM
You guys joke about the "2 week rule" but you forget in 2000 the DOJ literally came up with a new definition of what was an assault weapon every two weeks. I used to go on the DOJ web site a lot in 2000 and every time I went on they changed what was and what wasn't considered an assault weapon. None of their definitions were even close to what was written in the legislation.