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jaytee
06-24-2010, 3:07 PM
Any one better than the other?

Donk310
06-24-2010, 3:12 PM
I have both. Its hard to say, they are on par with each other. My ten year old favors the LMT for some reason though. I think he just likes iron sights. The emblem looks cooler on the DD though.

Ronco
06-24-2010, 3:14 PM
Any one better than the other?

This from LMT Website:

LMT is a provider of many items to US Special Ops Command, US Army, US Navy, US Air Force, US Marine Corps and other government agencies.

I don't know how much DD does with the Military. Someone will probably know. DD does make nice stuff though!

Good luck with your quest.

45R
06-24-2010, 3:16 PM
Both are good to go!

cmace22
06-24-2010, 3:18 PM
Any one better than the other?


Depends on what you mean by better.

If you mean:

Military contracts
Proven combat performance
Longer production history
Considered top tier manufacturer
Millions of rounds by end users down range


Then I would choose LMT!

Donk310
06-24-2010, 3:20 PM
This from LMT Website:

LMT is a provider of many items to US Special Ops Command, US Army, US Navy, US Air Force, US Marine Corps and other government agencies.

I don't know how much DD does with the Military. Someone will probably know. DD does make nice stuff though!

Good luck with your quest.

The Air Force has rifles?

Noobert
06-24-2010, 3:21 PM
LMT

jaytee
06-24-2010, 3:36 PM
To narrow it down - DD say they use a cold hammer forging process and from what I can tell LMT doesn't. Is this such a big deal?
Actually for me, it's not, but they're similarly priced and, well, why not?
I'm too new to this to know all the ins and outs - obvious problem and one which I was warned about, the dreaded BRD.

BONECUTTER
06-24-2010, 3:41 PM
The Air Force has rifles?

:cool: Try reading a book every once in a while....

Isaiah4Autumn
06-24-2010, 3:48 PM
DD is new in the rifle business but their rails are contracted to the us government as well as the UK. I believe DD uses traditional gas system and lmt uses the piston system; I think? Fwiw I own a DD rifle and its fantastic. It has a cold hammer forged barrel and I've read they supposed to improve accuracy...again don't quote me on it. Call riflegear; they carry both and I'm sure would be more then willing to answer any questions.

Josh3239
06-24-2010, 3:50 PM
Daniel Defense does hold some military contracts and is considered a top tier manufacturer. They CHF their barrels and all of their bolts are M16 bolts. I'd personally prefer a Daneil Defense, but you really can't make a wrong choice on this.

Isaiah, LMT does make DI and "gas piston" rifles.

Donk, the Air Force was the first to buy AR style rifles IIRC.

tomd1584
06-24-2010, 4:10 PM
Daniel Defense does hold some military contracts and is considered a top tier manufacturer. They CHF their barrels and all of their bolts are M16 bolts. I'd personally prefer a Daneil Defense, but you really can't make a wrong choice on this.

Isaiah, LMT does make DI and "gas piston" rifles.

Donk, the Air Force was the first to buy AR style rifles IIRC.


this. both LMT and DD are top tier mfg's.

Donk310
06-24-2010, 4:14 PM
:cool: Try reading a book every once in a while....

Which one?

ZX-10R
06-24-2010, 4:16 PM
I just got a Daniel Defense and I must admit it is pretty well made in every possible way. I am very happy with it. It also looks good with my American Defense Recon X scope mount and Nikko 3X-10x scope. Great combo IMO. My WASR 10/63 is my home defense gun.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader3.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader2.jpg

NorCalDustin
06-24-2010, 4:36 PM
I also have a Daniel Defense M4 and I have to say It's very impressive.

Droppin Deuces
06-24-2010, 4:40 PM
The Air Force has rifles?

Air Force Para Rescue. Some of the deadliest EMTs on the planet.

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 4:45 PM
Both have military contracts for a variety of their items. Both are excellent. Both sell very well (got their products for sale in my online store) and I have yet to have a complaint with either companies products.

Complete rifle? I would tend to lean towards LMT as they have provided complete rifles to the military and various government agencies and thus there is a little bit of prestige there. Right now Daniel Defense has been providing rails and accessories to armed forces, but not complete rifles. I am sure that will change in the near future. You can't really go wrong with either.

On a side note, the ONLY collapsable stock I run is the LMT Sopmod. I'll happily pay three times the cost of the CTR or Vltor stock for it, because it offers such a complete package of features I want from a stock. This after running a CTR and VLTOR side by side with one. I sold those off and replaced them with LMT Sopmods. So yeah, LMT does make great stuff...but so does Daniel Defense.

So basically I am no help at all since I like them both! ;-)

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 4:59 PM
The Air Force has rifles?

I assume you're kidding. But in case you are not, Delta Force, Seals, SF, Rangers and so forth rarely go on a mission without an Air Force Combat Controller, especially in places like Afghanistan where they need access to a wide varitey of aerial assets at a moments notice. These guys have the same type of training as the other special operations shooters, but have the added skillet of an air traffic controller. They really ramped up their mission profiles from the 1990s and on in order to avoid friendly fire incidents as a result of communications failures between ground troops and the aircraft supporting them. Read Kill Bin Laden, about Delta Force attempting to capture/kill Bin Laden, or just about any book about special operations in Afganistan or Iraq and hear all about Combat Controllers and the role they play.

Pararescue also deploys with every special operations unit under the sun, and does more than just search and rescue (the mission they are most known for). The first publicized account is the invasion of Panama, when they deployed with the Seals. There is a pretty famous account of a Pararescueman treating a wounded seal, taking a round (several rounds I think), and continuing to treat the wounded rather than stopping to treat his own very serious wounds. Think he won the silver star for that one.

Air Force special operations also perform their own classified missions as Special Tactics Teams consisting of a mixture of Combat Controls, Pararescue and Combat Weathermen (most known sneak behind enemy lines like sniper teams before an attack to confirm weather will be favorable for the current asset in the plan).

In addition to special operations their are a wide variety of front line units. Examples include Secuity Police, Security Forces, EOD, Combat Engineers, and the my personal favorite (because it is what I did) Aerial Mobility Ports all of which are armed and receive specialized training including but not limited to Air Base Ground Defense and SERE.

So yes, the Air Force has rifles.

Droppin Deuces
06-24-2010, 5:05 PM
Ah, forgot FAC. Donk310, if you want a book that talks a little about what they do and how important their role is, read a book called Kill Bin Laden, by "Dalton Fury."

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 5:12 PM
There is a book about the Seal that fell out of a helicopter on an Al Qaeda mountain top, and the rescue attempt that followed. Two helicopters worth of Seals and Combat Controllers died in the rescue attempt, but the shear number of Al Qaeda they took with them was staggering. Turned out their LZ was the entrance to a cave network filled them. Weather and elevation made it an impossible battle to win, especially with on two helicopters worth of troops, and no possibility of getting reinforcements. The details are fuzzy since I read it 2 years ago, but the Combat Controller was already assigned to the Seal Team on a mission to hunt down Al Al Qaeda in the valley.

Until the 1990s their very existence was classified, but they have been around since the Vietnam Era, and performing the same type of missions. So they were on many of the famous missions we attribute to being strictly the work of different services. For example, their role in the failed Delta raid on Iran wasn't discussed until recently, when a Delta guy wrote a detailed book about that operation and gave them a lot of praise. Since the 1990s its next to impossible to find a book about a special operations mission that doesn't say they played a role.

While most Air Force career fields are strictly a supporting role the Air Force does have their elite warriors every bit as skilled and as deadly as the other branches of service. The fact that my support role got me a little closer to the action than most Air Force enlisted guys get made me proud. But it was nothing like the role our special operations guys perform. Those guys are true warriors.

Ok, I'll get back on topic now.

Cyc Wid It
06-24-2010, 5:17 PM
Combat Weathermen = crazy.

sevensix2x51
06-24-2010, 5:20 PM
<snip>
Combat Weathermen
<snip>

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object/509/96/n2208718402_25009.jpg

sorry, i couldnt help it...

Droppin Deuces
06-24-2010, 5:21 PM
There is a book about the Seal that fell out of a helicopter on an Al Qaeda mountain top, and the rescue attempt that followed. Two helicopters worth of Seals and Combat Controllers died in the rescue attempt, but the shear number of Al Qaeda they took with them was staggering. Turned out their LZ was the entrance to a cave network filled them. Weather and elevation made it an impossible battle to win, especially with on two helicopters worth of troops, and no possibility of getting reinforcements. The details are fuzzy since I read it 2 years ago, but the Combat Controller was already assigned to the Seal Team on a mission to hunt down Al Al Qaeda in the valley.

...

Lone Survivor? Sounds familiar. If so, I think the story was a little different, but we could be talking about different books altogether.

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 5:24 PM
Roberts Ridge by Malcolm MacPherson, named after the Seal that fell out of the chopper.

Jawbreaker by Gary Berntsen and Ralph Pezzullo and Kill Bin Laden by Dalton Fury mention their role in the attempt to capture Bin Laden. The better read was Kill Bin Laden by Dalton Fury, and gives a much better account of the action. I couldn't put that one down.

The Guts to Try by Col. James H. Kyle, USAF (Ret.) talks about their role in the failed attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran.

There is one more I could not find in my Audible Library that talks in detail about their role in Panama and their symbiotic relationship with Delta Force, and other Special Operations Teams, it barely mentions their role in vietnam because that was before the authors time and the secretive nature of their career fields means he simply may not know.

I could list a really long list of the various units I had the opportunity to deploy with in the breif time I was asigned to the 438th AMPF (there is next to nothing written about us at least not by name), but my role was nothing special especially compared to guys like the Combat Combat Controllers, Pararescue and Combat Weathermen. The things I later found out the units I was deployed with were doing on those missions by reading books about it 10+ years later was pretty damn cool. You hit a chapter and they mention the country, and timeframe, and some specific event you remember witnessing and you realize "Wait a minute? I was there! I remember this guy or that guy! I remember that happening. So that's why we were there!". It's pretty cool. The man power required to get these teams in theater and support them while they are there is impressive all in itself. Boring, but impressive. A lot goes into it. Nobody has Global Reach and Global Power like the United States Armed Forces.

Droppin Deuces
06-24-2010, 5:29 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking the stories are intertwined. Lone Survivor is about Marcus Luttrel. The guy the SEALs were initially looking for. But I could still be wrong :)

ZX-10R
06-24-2010, 5:42 PM
Wow I remember that story and did a Wiki...Great kill ratios. I would have offed the goatherders in that vote.

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 5:45 PM
Combat Weathermen = crazy.

I agree. When I first learned about them I thought I was being lied to. Their role sounds too crazy to be true, but they are real.

Spitfire75
06-24-2010, 5:53 PM
I've never fired a Daniel Defense rifle, but I've handled a few. They are very nice...high quality stuff. Their rails seem pretty great. That being said, here's my LMT. The lower is a Stag, but the upper is where the action is. She shoots great and never gives me any trouble.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/ocsk8brdr/Calguns/Stag-AR.jpg

makav3li
06-24-2010, 5:53 PM
my dd barrel sparkles in the sun while my lmt does not

tacticalcity
06-24-2010, 6:01 PM
As for the USAF rifles, my entire unit were isued GAU-5A/As. Very cool little rifle. Had both semi and full auto. Not burst, full auto. So trigger control was key.

They looked exactly like this...
http://98.196.65.94/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/USAF_1988-1-560x412.jpg

Here is some spefic details on them incase anybody cares: http://98.196.65.94/retroblackrifle/ModGde/CrbGde/USAFGdeCrb.html

I promise to get back on topic now. Just had to defend the honor of my beloved USAF!

Donk310
06-24-2010, 7:34 PM
Ah, forgot FAC. Donk310, if you want a book that talks a little about what they do and how important their role is, read a book called Kill Bin Laden, by "Dalton Fury."

Im just messin', I am very familiar with them. I've worked side by side with them. ... Me being on the "Devil Dog" team of course. (Can I get an OORAH!)
That sounds like a very good book. I am going to look for it.

patriot_man
06-25-2010, 1:31 AM
LMT for me. I haven't had enough experience with DD products except for their RIS II to really make a decision.

Droppin Deuces
06-25-2010, 9:34 AM
Bamboozled!:mad:

Im just messin', I am very familiar with them. I've worked side by side with them. ... Me being on the "Devil Dog" team of course. (Can I get an OORAH!)
That sounds like a very good book. I am going to look for it.

shark92651
06-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Some friends and I put my RifleGear (DD) mid-length upper through it's paces last weekend. Shoots great, cycles as smooth as grease through a goose!

Here is my good friend Jose giving it a try.

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k1dude
06-25-2010, 10:05 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking the stories are intertwined. Lone Survivor is about Marcus Luttrel. The guy the SEALs were initially looking for. But I could still be wrong :)

Luttrel's team was sent out to snipe an Al Qaeda leader in a small village. The helicopter sent out to rescue them took an RPG right up the rear door the rescue team was planning to exit from.

technique
06-25-2010, 10:48 AM
I shoot and own both.


I have put nearly 20k through the LMT without so much as a intentionally induced malfunction or one that can be contributed to ammo related issues.

Most of those fired were fire thousands at a time within a 2-3 day period, running the gun several hours a day in various weather conditions including very hot weather, snow, rain...so on.

I can say, I have no regrets with owning the LMT and it is my favorite non NFA AR. I really like it.


I also love my DD. It's an 11.5in. CHF work horse...runs like a sewing machine.
I haven't had it that long and have only put 2-3k through it. It appears to be an excellent investment thus far.



You can't go wrong either way IMO however, DD's specs place it slightly higher on the scale than LMT.

NorCalSJ
06-25-2010, 11:08 AM
OK, after reading this thread I now believe the Air Force has rifles but do they give them bullets????

Droppin Deuces
06-25-2010, 11:43 AM
Luttrel's team was sent out to snipe an Al Qaeda leader in a small village.


Right, but once he lost the rest of his team, the mission changed a little.

k1dude
06-25-2010, 11:51 AM
Right, but once he lost the rest of his team, the mission changed a little.

Sorry, I added a small blurb at the end of my last post to clarify.

IsaacGlass
06-25-2010, 1:23 PM
I just got a Daniel Defense and I must admit it is pretty well made in every possible way. I am very happy with it. It also looks good with my American Defense Recon X scope mount and Nikko 3X-10x scope. Great combo IMO. My WASR 10/63 is my home defense gun.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader3.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/Vader/Vader2.jpg

Where's the rifle? All I see is a very large scope :D

cowboyup
06-25-2010, 5:18 PM
Any one better than the other?

I think they are both gtg.

I found this....from about a year a ago...from a Georgia news post?

http://savannahnow.com/node/759878


Daniel Defense, a promising new Bryan County manufacturer only two months past its grand opening, laid off some 30 employees last week and furloughed most of its remaining 100 employees this week.

But owner Marty Daniel said he is confident the company, which makes and markets a tactical-style rifle and a line of special forces weapons accessories, will bounce back.

"We'll come out on the other side of this," Daniel said. "The furlough is just for this week. We may have to furlough again. Our sales are way down so we're having to pull our production down to match our sales. We're doing what we have to do to manage cash and make sure that we're a solid company."

Daniel started Daniel Defense out of another company he owns, Pooler-based Daniel Overhead Door and Fireplace, in the late 1990s. He had taken up hobby shooting and sought accessories for an M16-style weapon, only to find those he sought weren't available and nobody was interested in making them.

Daniel Defense subsequently won contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense, making an accessory upgrade for the M4 rifle, and with the United Kingdom Ministry of Defense, making a similar upgrade.

Daniel Defense began making its own M4 rifle in January, about the same time it was migrating from Garden City to its current 37,000-square-foot plant in Bryan County's Interstate Centre industrial park.

There was a strong market for guns earlier this year, and Daniel Defense couldn't keep up with the number of guns being ordered. But that strong demand caused other, larger gun manufacturing companies to flood the distribution and dealership pipeline with their products, Daniel said. And gun sales are historically slow in June and July, he explained.

"We've hit a big drop in sales, and as any manufacturer is forced to do in this situation, we had to lay some people off."

"Just last week, we laid off 26 employees on the production side, and we eliminated three positions on the management side," Daniel said. "It would be our hope that we can hire all of them back. I'm confident that we can hire some of them back."

Daniel said he postponed the layoffs as long as he could: "Layoffs, in my mind, they're very personal. These people's families are involved, and their income, and their way of life. It's not like just turning a machine off. It has real complications to those people and their families."

About 70 workers were furloughed this week.

"I've got some key people here working. I've got some equipment working," Daniel said. "We build (gun) barrels for our weapons as well as building barrels for other manufacturers. Our barrels are still selling very well. So I've got that equipment up running 24 hours a day."

The company still has its government defense contracts. "But unfortunately they are both between orders right now," said Charles Duggan Jr., Daniel Defense vice president for corporate affairs. Three Daniel Defense officials are heading to the United Kingdom this week seeking new orders, he added.

And the company is offering two new versions of its rifle, hoping to capture more of the market for special-forces-style weapons. While its primary M4 rifle sells for some $1,600, Daniel Defense has begun offering the same gun with fewer accessories. "We introduced a new rifle with a $1,200 retail, which will open up a much larger market because of the price point to us," Daniel said.

F.J. "Josh" Fenn, Bryan County Industrial Development Authority executive director, said he's confident Daniel Defense will recover.

"The national economy is affecting everybody. I think Daniel Defense will turn around," said Fenn. "I hate what's going on, but I don't think it's going to be permanent. I think they're going to be back and stronger than ever before."

X-NewYawker
06-25-2010, 5:20 PM
The Air Force has rifles?

Yes. They have one '03 Springfield they all share.

gamma105
06-25-2010, 5:29 PM
I have the midlength DD, no problems so far with the cheap wolf ammo I've been using. Compared with my friend's LMT, the DD felt lighter. I never weighed both, it was only a personal perception.

Endless
06-25-2010, 5:50 PM
Easy, Daniel Defense.

D Day Dog
06-25-2010, 5:52 PM
The Airforce doesn't need rifles. They have plenty of bombs, missles, and cannons to use on ground pounding brainless, highschool diploma only, rifleman. :D

Linus
06-25-2010, 6:06 PM
Easy, Daniel Defense.

NO, even easier;

Whatever IS cheapest.:D