PDA

View Full Version : military penetrator 5.56 rounds


chaseface
06-24-2010, 10:46 AM
What do you guys think about these rounds and the price at cheaper than dirt? 1000 rounds loose packed for $519.78. here is the link http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223C-5.html . They look like some pretty awesome rounds.

Lucky7
06-24-2010, 10:50 AM
I think you should save some money and buy from these guys.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

addiction
06-24-2010, 10:54 AM
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/725.php


damn, beat me to it....

Uriah02
06-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Wow... never been to palmettostate that is awesome!

chaseface
06-24-2010, 10:59 AM
I think you should save some money and buy from these guys.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

thanks for the heads up. While they are out of the 1000 rd bulk package, still buying the 300 rd packages are significantly cheaper per round. Guess cheaper than dirt is really that cheap after all haha

chaseface
06-24-2010, 11:12 AM
So has anyone used these rounds? are they as badda** as people say?

Vtec44
06-24-2010, 11:38 AM
Guess cheaper than dirt is really that cheap after all haha

Their dirt is gold plated.

IEShooter
06-24-2010, 11:45 AM
So has anyone used these rounds? are they as badda** as people say?

Bad***? I really don't know. What have you heard and what is it that you want them to do? I'm sure they'll poke holes in paper targets and probably your steel targets too.

chaseface
06-24-2010, 11:48 AM
I've heard they will cut through 3/8" steel like butter

problemchild
06-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Steel core.....Baaaaaaaaaaa

Try the Tungsten core Israeli ammo. Now thats what Im talking about.

dwa
06-24-2010, 11:58 AM
I've heard they will cut through 3/8" steel like butter

those are your stand m855 "green tip" there is nothing special about them, they have a steel core. all the penetrator talk is taking a description and marketing it, most milsurp rounds have a penetrator.

Sarkoon
06-24-2010, 12:18 PM
those are your stand m855 "green tip" there is nothing special about them, they have a steel core. all the penetrator talk is taking a description and marketing it, most milsurp rounds have a penetrator.

Well, M855 does indeed penetrate objects that M193 does not:

http://www.sarkoon.com/stuff/SteelPlate.jpg

Beemerguy
06-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Well, M855 does indeed penetrate objects that M193 does not:

http://www.sarkoon.com/stuff/SteelPlate.jpg

Yikes. Do you know at what distance that was at?

I was going to shoot some new 1/2" steel spinners with XM193. Now I'm not so sure.

Sarkoon
06-24-2010, 12:40 PM
Yikes. Do you know at what distance that was at?

I was going to shoot some new 1/2" steel spinners with XM193. Now I'm not so sure.

This test was done at very close range - approximately 15 yards away using a 14.5" barrel.

Beemerguy
06-24-2010, 12:49 PM
Okay cool thanks, I'll put a few rounds at 'em and see how they hold up at 100+.

Trigger Finger
06-24-2010, 12:59 PM
Before I retired from the surveillance detail I was working we used M-4 carbines and used the M855 ammo exclusively. Our purpose was to penetrate the bad guys body armor and vehicle. Very good rounds for this purpose. I never had to buy any but Palmetto's price seems pretty good.

dwa
06-24-2010, 1:03 PM
Well, M855 does indeed penetrate objects that M193 does not:

http://www.sarkoon.com/stuff/SteelPlate.jpg

i never said it didnt they are different rounds. just that's there's nothing special about it, now m955 yes there is. my point was that m855 is not super duper mall ninja bad ***, its just the norm.

AlliedArmory
06-24-2010, 2:01 PM
They always seemed to cycle fine in all of my different AR setups. I have a stash of these for a SHTF situation, but that is about all I have them for.

Reductio
06-24-2010, 2:08 PM
Don't forget that cheaper than dirt screws you over with shipping. Palmetto is 12$ flat for each 1000 rounds, and ships fast on top of it.

Omega13device
06-24-2010, 2:20 PM
For plinking I would stick to FMJ rounds because a lot of ranges won't let you shoot steel core, sometimes due to the fire hazard and sometimes because they don't want holes in their steel targets. People tend to think M855 is the "cool guy" round but frankly I would skip it. I have a case of it sitting here that I can't shoot at my range for the above reasons. I like the PMC 55gr at Palmetto.

For self-defense you're probably better off with 55gr soft points or open-tip match rounds (69 or 77 gr) since you're about 100 times more likely to encounter someone who is not wearing rifle plates. Unless you're on SWAT. Some of the newer plates will stop M855 anyway.

E. Fudd
06-24-2010, 2:46 PM
M855 has an anemic rep for stopping power, according to the likes of Paul Howe. Tends to ice pick vs. tumble and break-up. often require multiple hits AND head shots to take town the BGs. Even the older M193 55 gr. FMJ is better, except in dense jungle brush. 75/77 gr. is supposed to be better than both of the older loads on the BG's.

chaseface
06-24-2010, 2:47 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys. I think i'll pick some up for when I want to break heavy duty things out in the desert, and stick to the fmj for local fun.

faterikcartman
06-24-2010, 3:10 PM
So has anyone used these rounds? are they as badda** as people say?

Somewhere out there is a discussion/explanation of how these are 2nds or 3rds and are not first quality rounds made to NATO specs. One of the visual giveaways, from what I remember, is lack of the tar around the base of the bullet which seals it against water.

That said, I've shot this ammo from different years with no problems.

dwa
06-24-2010, 7:08 PM
For plinking I would stick to FMJ rounds because a lot of ranges won't let you shoot steel core, sometimes due to the fire hazard and sometimes because they don't want holes in their steel targets. People tend to think M855 is the "cool guy" round but frankly I would skip it. I have a case of it sitting here that I can't shoot at my range for the above reasons. I like the PMC 55gr at Palmetto.

For self-defense you're probably better off with 55gr soft points or open-tip match rounds (69 or 77 gr) since you're about 100 times more likely to encounter someone who is not wearing rifle plates. Unless you're on SWAT. Some of the newer plates will stop M855 anyway.

most fmj is steel core.

OneApart
06-24-2010, 7:15 PM
There is a lot of hype floating around the M855 round. In the run of the mill self defensive situation, I really doubt it will matter whether your shooting standard FMJ, or "Steel Core" rounds.

If your FMJ's don't penetrate, grab the SKS.

I routinely penetrate 1/4", even 1/2" steel plate with your standard $6/box WOLF FMJ.

The DRis
06-24-2010, 7:30 PM
The M855 has re steel core to move the lead back in the round. Therefore changing the BC of the bullet. The reason they did this was so they could still "penetrate" a steel helmet at 600 yards. By changing the BC it's keeps the speed and the energy.

As for the never ending "I read this expert that says this and this expert that says that" couch mall ninja crap. A bullet is a bullet. Yes obviously a .308 does more damage because of muzzle energy and mass, but do you want to try getting shot with it to prove it "doesn't take a guy down". Gimme a break.

RAAK_FJ
06-24-2010, 8:51 PM
I think you should save some money and buy from these guys.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

Ditto, great place

docsmileyface
06-24-2010, 8:58 PM
M855 has crappy neck length, it'll go through a person before it starts to yaw.

Cody
06-24-2010, 9:07 PM
Scroll down to the 2nd post where I compare different .223 rounds (including lake City) and penetration against a 2" thick steel plate at 150 yards.

Penetration Tests (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=290815)

-Cody

GearHead
06-25-2010, 12:15 AM
Not as good as the Twin Cities armor piercing .30-06 I have sitting in my closet :P

Also, it's a good rule to avoid cheaper than dirt. They are notorious for price gouging and being general a-holes.

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 7:49 AM
M855 has an anemic rep for stopping power, according to the likes of Paul Howe. Tends to ice pick vs. tumble and break-up. often require multiple hits AND head shots to take town the BGs. Even the older M193 55 gr. FMJ is better, except in dense jungle brush. 75/77 gr. is supposed to be better than both of the older loads on the BG's.

+1 agreed.

I am glad I read the whole thread and found this or I would have looked like idiot posting the same as you with noting it.

M855 is a round you keep on the side, not what you use. I have 100 in a box collecting dust. I will never ever see the day I need them. These are offensive rounds made to help you penetrate soft armored targets. There is no advantage to M855 in the real world and in fact over penetration is most likely going to keep your target drop dropping.

You want M1955 ball or 55gr .223 FMJ for plinking and training. This is your go to for everything non-combat and non-hunting.

As long as you have a 5.56 NATO chamber you need to keep a supply of 77gr ammo on hand for hunting, zeroing your optic and defense. It will cost you a lot...but its worth it. Having atleast 300 rds of Black Hills JHP on hand is way more important and practical then steel core stuff. This is your "I win" ammo.

Zero your rifle with the 77gr, then shoot with the 55gr noting how far off the 55gr is from your 77gr stuff. If you dont know how to zero, read up on it before doing it....it can be expensive using high end ammo to zero.

dwa
06-25-2010, 8:30 AM
+1 agreed.

I am glad I read the whole thread and found this or I would have looked like idiot posting the same as you with noting it.

M855 is a round you keep on the side, not what you use. I have 100 in a box collecting dust. I will never ever see the day I need them. These are offensive rounds made to help you penetrate soft armored targets. There is no advantage to M855 in the real world and in fact over penetration is most likely going to keep your target drop dropping.
what the hell makes these "offensive rounds" if you dont knwo what your talking about to start coining terms. Can you cite any evidence of M855 overpenetration?
You want M1955 ball or 55gr .223 FMJ for plinking and training. This is your go to for everything non-combat and non-hunting.
this is an M1955 http://www.mooremilitaria.com/M-55%20Flak%20Vest.JPG you are probably trying to talk about M193
As long as you have a 5.56 NATO chamber you need to keep a supply of 77gr ammo on hand for hunting, zeroing your optic and defense. It will cost you a lot...but its worth it. Having atleast 300 rds of Black Hills JHP on hand is way more important and practical then steel core stuff. This is your "I win" ammo.
Im not even sure where to start, but he doesnt have to do anything, why is he zeroing to a round he is by your advice only going to fire to zero?
Zero your rifle with the 77gr, then shoot with the 55gr noting how far off the 55gr is from your 77gr stuff. If you dont know how to zero, read up on it before doing it....it can be expensive using high end ammo to zero.

what is this pile of drivel your spitting out as advice?

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 8:59 AM
Plain and simple.
steel core ammo is used to punch holes in threats that are behind cover of some kind. I am sorry the word offensive is offensive to you. I am also sorry my old FUD ways tell me the only time I will use this type of ammo is against body armor, targets in vehicals ...and I will be on the offensive at this point.

You are correct I was talking about M193, fruedian slip, I guess. Give me a break, it was early and I only had 1 red bull and 1 cup of joe at this point.

I am a firm believer in zeroing your firearm to the ammo you are going to be using when it counts. There will be minor changes in ammo esp when going from a 77gr to a 55gr round. If you can show me data indicating there is no POI change between various ammo, I would like to read it. This goes against everything I know, but I have been wrong in the past about a lot of things.

I use Black Hills Sierra 77gr Match hollowpoints. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=819452 (edit--I guess this is called mk262 mod0/1, I really dont know but I looked up 5.56 ammo on wiki to see )I have cut critters in half, dropped large hogs, east coast whitetail (not these west coast dog sized deer). This is my go to ammo when it counts and its my "I win" ammo of choice. As with any ammo its more about shot placement and I can count on knowing where this is going before i pull the trigger.

I am sure there is a lot of new ammo I am unaware of, I tend to stick with what I know works.


edit from wiki, and I didnt know this. I was using this ammo on advise from a friend and had no idea or didnt remember why he told me to use it. I just know he was right.
Mk 262
The Mk 262 is a match quality round manufactured by Black Hills Ammunition made originally for the Special Purpose Rifle (SPR). It uses a 77-grain (5.0 g) bullet that is more effective at longer ranges than the standard issue M855 round.

Two versions of the round have been procured to date. Initial production runs, designated Mark 262 Mod 0, lacked a cannelure. Subsequent production, designated Mk 262 Mod 1, added a cannelure to the bullet for effective crimping.

According to US DoD sources, the Mk 262 round is capable of making kills at 700 meters. Ballistics tests found that the round caused "consistent initial yaw in soft tissue" at 300+ meters. Apparently it is superior to the standard M855 round when fired from an M4 or M16 rifle. It evidently possesses superior stopping power, and can allow for engagements to be extended to up to 700 meters. It appears that this round can drastically improve the performance of any AR15 platform weapon chambered to .223/5.56mm. Superior accuracy, wounding capacity, stopping power and range power has made this the preferred round of many Special Forces operators, and highly desirable as a replacement for the older, Belgian made, 5.56x45mm M855 NATO round

jdberger
06-25-2010, 9:11 AM
What do you guys think about these rounds and the price at cheaper than dirt? 1000 rounds loose packed for $519.78. here is the link http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223C-5.html . They look like some pretty awesome rounds.

Cheaper Than Dirt isn't....

They're also too lazy to deal with Californians. People have repeatedly reached out to them to explain California laws with regards to certain products that they sell (AR parts, etc) and they still refuse to sell to CA residents (this also applies to Sportsmans Supply).

It's their business and I won't tell them how to run it, but what I can do is take my money to a CA friendly retailer and encourage people to do the same.

If they decide to re-evaluate their policies, I'd be happy to do the same.

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 9:23 AM
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=392200

as a low cost alternative to BH 77gr match. I have never used it but found this when looking around.

read the reviews, put a dash of salt of them, since this is the internets, but for $20.00 a box its worth a try.

Barbarossa
06-25-2010, 9:27 AM
I've had great luck and pricing with these guys: (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-m855-62gr-penetrator-ammo) $2.22/Rd @ 1,000 pieces.

They are out of the prvi that I like.

Omega13device
06-25-2010, 9:34 AM
I've had great luck and pricing with these guys: (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-m855-62gr-penetrator-ammo) $2.22/Rd @ 1,000 pieces.

They are out of the prvi that I like.
LOL you did your math backwards boss.

dwa
06-25-2010, 10:24 AM
Plain and simple.
steel core ammo is used to punch holes in threats that are behind cover of some kind. steel core is also where you find more economic choices many a time. there is no reason not to shoot steel core or to only shoot steel core, for paper they all work the same.
I am sorry the word offensive is offensive to you.your trying to create terminology to seem credible I am also sorry my old FUD ways tell me the only time I will use this type of ammo is against body armor, targets in vehicals ...and I will be on the offensive at this point.sure you will...but what if you in a static position and a zombie wearing soft armour in a vehicle comes up to you, then your "defending" so that scenario would kinda ruin your new terminology. so are the shoes that you would be wearing then your offensive of defensive shoes?
You are correct I was talking about M193, fruedian slip, I guess. Give me a break, it was early and I only had 1 red bull and 1 cup of joe at this point.
still goes to your attempt at credibility
I am a firm believer in zeroing your firearm to the ammo you are going to be using when it counts. There will be minor changes in ammo esp when going from a 77gr to a 55gr round. If you can show me data indicating there is no POI change between various ammo, I would like to read it. This goes against everything I know, but I have been wrong in the past about a lot of things.

I use Black Hills Sierra 77gr Match hollowpoints. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=819452 (edit--I guess this is called mk262 mod0/1, I really dont know but I looked up 5.56 ammo on wiki to see )I have cut critters in half, dropped large hogs, east coast whitetail (not these west coast dog sized deer). This is my go to ammo when it counts and its my "I win" ammo of choice. As with any ammo its more about shot placement and I can count on knowing where this is going before i pull the trigger.
so that's your favorite ammo, that's a good recommendation and it actually exists.
I am sure there is a lot of new ammo I am unaware of, I tend to stick with what I know works.


edit from wiki, and I didnt know this. I was using this ammo on advise from a friend and had no idea or didnt remember why he told me to use it. I just know he was right.
Mk 262
The Mk 262 is a match quality round manufactured by Black Hills Ammunition made originally for the Special Purpose Rifle (SPR). It uses a 77-grain (5.0 g) bullet that is more effective at longer ranges than the standard issue M855 round.

Two versions of the round have been procured to date. Initial production runs, designated Mark 262 Mod 0, lacked a cannelure. Subsequent production, designated Mk 262 Mod 1, added a cannelure to the bullet for effective crimping.

According to US DoD sources, the Mk 262 round is capable of making kills at 700 meters. Ballistics tests found that the round caused "consistent initial yaw in soft tissue" at 300+ meters. Apparently it is superior to the standard M855 round when fired from an M4 or M16 rifle. It evidently possesses superior stopping power, and can allow for engagements to be extended to up to 700 meters. It appears that this round can drastically improve the performance of any AR15 platform weapon chambered to .223/5.56mm. Superior accuracy, wounding capacity, stopping power and range power has made this the preferred round of many Special Forces operators, and highly desirable as a replacement for the older, Belgian made, 5.56x45mm M855 NATO round

You never addressed what barrel twist was being used

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 11:02 AM
You never addressed what barrel twist was being used

Ok, I am in over my head here....What do you think the difference between 1/7 and 1/9 is. How does that effect it overall.

I know there is a major difference, but like I said, I only know what works for me and what I was advised to use. I know heavy projectiles work better in shorter spins, which is why a .22lr works good in a 1/12 but suffers accuracy in 1/9.

Without getting all super-tech with me can you give me hard core examples where 1/7 with 77gr is bad, or 1/9 with 77gr is bad?

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 11:19 AM
most fmj is steel core.

WTF are you talking about? That's one of the boldest and most incorrect statements I've seen on this forum.

Not as good as the Twin Cities armor piercing .30-06 I have sitting in my closet :P

Also, it's a good rule to avoid cheaper than dirt. They are notorious for price gouging and being general a-holes.

Agree with you about CTD! But, your little AP stash isn't "all that". Some of us are sitting on thousands of rounds or AP 50BMG:43:. I am kicking myself for not buying more 30cal AP bullets about 7 years ago, when they were cheap though.

Plain and simple.
steel core ammo is used to punch holes in threats that are behind cover of some kind.

Plain and simple, that's not always the primary reason that steel core are used in bullets. Balance and even cost of manufacturing can also play major roles. BTW, some bullets are made with mild steel cores and some are made with steel cores which are designed to penetrate. If the primary reason for the steel core in all steel cored bullets was to penetrate, why would some cores be made of mild steel?

I've had great luck and pricing with these guys: (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-m855-62gr-penetrator-ammo) $2.22/Rd @ 1,000 pieces.

They are out of the prvi that I like.

Hell, I'll sell you as many as you want for half their price of $2.22/round.:43: Really, I can get them to you for $1.11/round shipped. Just let me know how many you want.

Barbarossa
06-25-2010, 11:23 AM
LOL you did your math backwards boss.

Haha!

Dammit It's been a long week... :p

cmace22
06-25-2010, 11:48 AM
Good info here (http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/)

"Despite this, there is growing concern over M855's performance based on recent field experience and testing. Partially because of the complex construction of M855/SS109 rounds their terminal performance often varies from lot to lot. As much as 6 and 7" of penetration have been observed before bullet yaw with some M855. While FBI standards do not specify fragmentation or yaw distance when evaluating rounds, given the importance of fragmentation in 5.56 bullets we are inclined to discourage use of M855 as a defensive round in light of the terminal performance and yaw consistency problems it continues to demonstrate"

IsaacGlass
06-25-2010, 12:16 PM
What do you guys think about these rounds and the price at cheaper than dirt? 1000 rounds loose packed for $519.78. here is the link http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223C-5.html . They look like some pretty awesome rounds.

Cheaper than dirt wont shipped to SSF.

chaseface
06-25-2010, 12:18 PM
Cheaper than dirt wont shipped to SSF.

I don't live in South San Francisco City, I just live a little south of San Francisco. They do ship to the town where I live. Thanks for the heads up tho

dwa
06-25-2010, 3:14 PM
WTF are you talking about? That's one of the boldest and most incorrect statements I've seen on this forum.




most milsurp is steel core and fmj along with the analogous rounds of civilian manufacture, I dont have stats but im confident enough to stand by those rounds having a large enough share of the market to support my statement. I'm more that willing to accept information to the contrary with citations of course.

Mac
06-25-2010, 5:36 PM
I use Black Hills Sierra 77gr Match hollowpoints. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=819452 (edit--I guess this is called mk262 mod0/1, I really dont know but I looked up 5.56 ammo on wiki to see )I have cut critters in half, dropped large hogs, east coast whitetail (not these west coast dog sized deer). This is my go to ammo when it counts and its my "I win" ammo of choice. As with any ammo its more about shot placement and I can count on knowing where this is going before i pull the trigger.
]

sorta off topic but....
We have some Big Mule Deer out here though. :D
Including the Rocky Mountain Mule Deer.

randy
06-26-2010, 12:06 AM
most fmj is steel core.

Where did you hear that?

With all this talk about what round goes through what and bullet weight for this and that. Just get a 308 and call it a night.

thayne
06-26-2010, 12:32 AM
Where did you hear that?

Most FMJ are lead core. Unless they say otherwise they are lead.

randy
06-26-2010, 12:39 AM
I agree they are lead it is dwa that has been smoking some strange herb.

Buying ss109 or whatever it's called today is spending a bunch of money on stuff that has restricted use, at least at the local ranges where I shoot.

Piru NO
Angeles NO
A place to shoot NO

I think there was a fire started in the San Diego by guys shooting steel core ammo. I know there was one started in Piru from it more than once. Shoot it in the desert and you're responsible for a fire. FMJ will spark on steel and rocks but nothing like ss109.