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View Full Version : Carrying a Sig DA/SA cocked and unlocked? Bad Idea?


Ultimate
06-21-2010, 1:23 PM
So I was thinking because of another thread, the Sigs have two internal safeties. A hammer block that keeps the hammer from striking the pin should the sear fail if the trigger is not pressed, and a firing pin block that is basically a secondary fail safe should the hammer block fail.

So assuming you know the fundamentals of drawing a firearm and do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire is it a super bad idea to carry a DA/SA Sig cocked and unlocked?

Is the main issue with this then the possibility of your holster activating the trigger?

What ideas do you guys have in regards to it?

Does it need to be locked like on a 1911?

etc etc

Blood Ocean
06-21-2010, 1:27 PM
Master Say:
If danger is great and must carry cocked, negligent discharge is least of worry.

Mr. Beretta
06-21-2010, 2:17 PM
Accident waiting to happen! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Black Majik
06-21-2010, 2:26 PM
Absolutely. The safeties on the SIG are to prevent the gun to fire if it was dropped. You still have to pull the trigger for the gun to fire. So, lets say you carry a cocked SIG, with a well designed holster blocking the triggerguard. All it takes is the trigger to snag lightly on something for the gun to fire.

What about a 1911 as you mentioned? Even if the 1911 was cocked and unlocked, if the trigger snagged it wouldn't fire because the grip safety was not depressed.

As such, I've been taught to have the strongside thumb push on the back of the hammer upon reholstering for two reasons 1) to prevent the hammer to fire in DA should the trigger snag on anything 2) know when the trigger is snagging because the hammer will lift.

Bad idea all around.

orangeusa
06-21-2010, 2:38 PM
Learn to embrace the first DA shot!!

PolishMike
06-21-2010, 2:45 PM
what's wrong with da first shot? That's the point in a da/sa gun

Grumpyoldretiredcop
06-21-2010, 3:19 PM
Assuming we're talking about a DA/SA Sig, very bad idea. The additional time required to pull through the initial DA trigger travel is negligible.

Crazed_SS
06-21-2010, 3:24 PM
Bad idea..

Get a 1911 or USP if you want to carry with the hammer cocked.

One of the nice things about the USP is you can carry it cocked w/ the safety on like a 1911, or DA/SA with safety off like a Sig, or DA/SA with safety on like a Beretta

Notblake
06-21-2010, 4:34 PM
If you want to carry a gun SA style carry a SA gun, if you want to carry a gun DA style carry a DA gun, it is really as simple as that. I might suggest a CZ75 or CZSP01 or P01 if you want to carry a gun cocked and locked. The decrease in trigger weight and trigger pull distance in SA mode means that safties really are crucial.

On the topic of holstering a firearm, I like to put my thumb on the top of the slide when re-holstering, this prevents the holster from squeezing the gun out of battery if the slide snags just a little bit.

On some guns just 1/16" will make that gun NOT go bang when you draw it and really need it.


-Blake

bjl333
06-21-2010, 4:58 PM
Learn to embrace the first DA shot!!

what's wrong with da first shot? That's the point in a da/sa gun

Assuming we're talking about a DA/SA Sig, very bad idea. The additional time required to pull through the initial DA trigger travel is negligible.

Bad idea..

Get a 1911 or USP if you want to carry with the hammer cocked.

One of the nice things about the USP is you can carry it cocked w/ the safety on like a 1911, or DA/SA with safety off like a Sig, or DA/SA with safety on like a Beretta

If you want to carry a gun SA style carry a SA gun, if you want to carry a gun DA style carry a DA gun, it is really as simple as that. I might suggest a CZ75 or CZSP01 or P01 if you want to carry a gun cocked and locked. The decrease in trigger weight and trigger pull distance in SA mode means that safties really are crucial.

On the topic of holstering a firearm, I like to put my thumb on the top of the slide when re-holstering, this prevents the holster from squeezing the gun out of battery if the slide snags just a little bit.

On some guns just 1/16" will make that gun NOT go bang when you draw it and really need it.


-Blake



I think the Jury voted !!!

l8apex
06-21-2010, 5:24 PM
I would strongly recommend against it. Learning the DA shot takes time, but it will help your shooting overall tremendously. You could also send your sig to bill grey to help smooth out that first shot.

Ultimate
06-21-2010, 6:02 PM
Looks like jury has indeed voted lol. I don't have a problem with the DA shot I was just wondering what the safety ramifications from it would be.

Looks like snagging the trigger is the biggest concern so far.

Sheepdog1968
06-21-2010, 6:03 PM
I personally wouldn't do it myself. If u dislike the DA pull (I do and I've got about 14,000 rounds down the tube of my Sigs), you can get single action only Sigs that have a 1911 safety so you can carry it cocked and locked. I'm fairly certain you can get the SA-DA Sig converted to a SAO.

remyjoeboxer
06-21-2010, 8:10 PM
ya what evryone else said..negative

1911su16b870
06-21-2010, 8:52 PM
Most P series Sigs are designed to be carried hammer down and DA pull for the first shot. The only exception is the P250 series which is DAO every shot. So I would also say run the gun the way it was designed. If you need cocked and locked, go with a 1911 or a HK USP that has been armorer modified to remove the decocking feature of the lever. You don't want to use the USP in the same way as a 1911 with thumb on the safety unless an armorer has removed the decocking feature.

lehn20
06-21-2010, 11:29 PM
dont be stupid!

orangeusa
06-21-2010, 11:39 PM
You sound like my Dad!

MossbergMan
06-22-2010, 10:24 AM
Go the Front Sight's website and read about the guy who holster his cocked Sig DA/SA pistol. ND coming out of the holster resulting in a wound that went from his thigh to his ankle. It was their first range shooting of a student. If it's still up, you'll understand my next statement.

Don't be a dumbass - embrace the DA or get a different gun. I understand you may be new, but I/we must reinforce the seriousness of this kind of action. DON'T DO IT.

esskay
06-22-2010, 10:35 AM
Looks like jury has indeed voted lol. I don't have a problem with the DA shot I was just wondering what the safety ramifications from it would be.

Looks like snagging the trigger is the biggest concern so far.

Note that striker fired handguns which do not have either a traditional safety (like the 1911) or DA/SA have trigger safeties -- the Sig does not and is not designed to be carried with the hammer cocked. Notice the nub on the Glock and XD triggers, the articulated trigger on the M&P. Even so, there are still reports of NDs with these kind of guns when someone reholsters carelessly (e.g. catching a shirt tail, etc).

ZombieKiller
06-22-2010, 11:11 AM
Go for it. Let us know how it turns out.

Cobrafreak
06-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Think of it this way. If an accident out of the blue happened what will the prosecutor say in court? That the plaintiff had a malfunction OR, that the plaintiff did not activate the safety and thus did not do all he could do to ensure safe handling of said firearm? Use every system a gun has to protect yourself from legal entanglements.

map
06-22-2010, 12:45 PM
IMO, bad idea.

UserM4
06-22-2010, 3:17 PM
What's the SA pull weight on a SIG?

If it's >5 lbs, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's <5 lbs, I'd stick to DA. There's a reason why smart people don't put match triggers on their duty weapon.

elberettas
06-22-2010, 3:23 PM
I would strongly recommend against it. Learning the DA shot takes time, but it will help your shooting overall tremendously. You could also send your sig to bill grey to help smooth out that first shot.

I think you mean Bruce Gray, which I highly recommend as well.

lehn20
06-23-2010, 8:07 AM
You have NO clue what you are talking and should get back in your lane.
The gun is not designed to be carried like that, regardless of trigger pull!!.

Some HKs has the option of being carried both ways, not the sigs.


What's the SA pull weight on a SIG?

If it's >5 lbs, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's <5 lbs, I'd stick to DA. There's a reason why smart people don't put match triggers on their duty weapon.

MossbergMan
06-23-2010, 8:38 AM
Bruce Gray can help the DA trigger as can replacing the trigger system with the Sig DAK trigger system.
Anyone (new or experienced) on my range gets one holstering of a cocked and unlocked firearm , second offense they are off my range, it is that dangerous.
So I have to side with lehn20 here and agree, userM4 you are giving UNSAFE advice if you are advocating holstering a Sig pistol with a conventional DA/SA trigger cocked just because it's SA trigger pull is greater than 5 lbs. You sir are not a professional I wish to associate with. Call me cautious, call me a wuss. but in 20 years of training civilians, LE and security personnel from all over the world with zero injuries (minor owies -bandaids- don't count) I think I can speak with some authority on this subject.

UserM4
06-23-2010, 9:10 AM
You have NO clue what you are talking and should get back in your lane.
The gun is not designed to be carried like that, regardless of trigger pull!!.

Some HKs has the option of being carried both ways, not the sigs.

I could be wrong but I thought SIGs had a firing pin block that engages whether the hammer is cocked or decocked. And if it did have a firing pin safety, then I figured that with a relatively heavy SA pull and a good holster, it's not "dangerous" as long as you keep your finger off the trigger. Like I said, I could be wrong and I do apologize if I'm giving bad advice. I used to think Glocks were unsafe but hey, you learn about all the safeties built into them and the only thing unsafe about them is negligent discharges. :p

drunktank
06-23-2010, 9:43 AM
If something were to get snagged in the trigger well and pull the trigger back, I don't think it would matter how many safeties your Glock, Sig, etc. would have. Seems sort of like a moot point to me. Training would seem to be the most effective asset. Obviously a good holster helps too.

orangeusa
06-23-2010, 10:16 AM
To the above post - if decocker is down/on safe (Sig/Beretta/Ruger style), a trigger pull will not do anything. Hence my question.

Okay - now that everyone agrees. I have a question. Poorly worded, but I'm doing my best. Assume gun is decocked (HAMMER DOWN), round in chamber, and decocker control still down - in safe. Now holster.

Question after holstering :

1. Keep decocker on?

or

2. Take off safety?

I kept it decocked since I know how my 92 safety/decocker works and I felt more comfortable with that. But some guns - a few Berettas, Ruger centerfires, USP, Sigs have the decocker only (no safety - i.e. control pops back up). Assume CZ is similiar. There are others, but I am having a senior moment here...

Just curious what your opinions are. I'm noob to holster, and had NO problems releasing safety after draw, but just curious. Some guys really like the decocker only option.

Black Majik
06-23-2010, 10:25 AM
orangeusa,

Everyone is different in their preferences, but I take mine off safe if it has a safety/decocker.

DA/SA, safety off. Only time I use a manual safety is for SAO guns.

orangeusa
06-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Oh, man - nice avatar!! I still like your Les Baer tho.. :)

Thanks - kinda what I thought, but only had seen threads where guys argue back and forth...

POLICESTATE
06-23-2010, 10:37 AM
It doesn't matter what the manufacturer is, a SA/DA pistol that has a hammer drop safety (like the Beretta 92) or a decocker (like a Sig P228) is NOT designed to be carried cocked period. The intent is to draw, fire DA, then fire subsequent shots SA. Or even draw, cock and fire SA if you want.

There are a few SA/DA pistols that feature a safety that does not drop the hammer, I can't think of any off the top of my head, I want to say the Browning BDA does this? Can't remember for sure, been a long time since I've looked at one of those. In any case, I wouldn't carry one of those cocked and locked either, I would go draw -> DA shot -> SA shots.

The only pistol I would carry cocked and locked are SA pistols designed that way e.g. the 1911.

TurboChrisB
06-23-2010, 11:06 AM
I was in AmmoBros two weeks ago and I noticed one of the guys behind the counter had his sidearm (didn't try to identify it) holstered cocked...I could see the hammer back....pretty un professional in my book....loved the store tho.

Cyc Wid It
06-23-2010, 2:19 PM
I was in AmmoBros two weeks ago and I noticed one of the guys behind the counter had his sidearm (didn't try to identify it) holstered cocked...I could see the hammer back....pretty un professional in my book....loved the store tho.

Hopefully 1911 or some other single action. I don't see the point of carrying a 1911 in something besides condition 1.

drunktank
06-23-2010, 3:23 PM
From what I've seen at Ammo Bros, they carry condition 1.

OrangeUSA, sorry I should have been more clear. I was more referring to glocks/striker fired having one in the chamber and cocked vs. say, a Sig P226 in similar fashion. Point being both are ready to go but have no external safety.

If something were to get snagged in the trigger well and pull the trigger back, I don't think it would matter how many safeties your Glock, Sig, etc. would have. Seems sort of like a moot point to me. Training would seem to be the most effective asset. Obviously a good holster helps too.

tacticalcity
06-23-2010, 3:28 PM
H&Ks (V1 and a few other trigger packs) and 1911s can be carried cocked and locked, which is the ideal way to carry them. They have a safety designed to be used this way. I am sure other guns are designed to carried this way and I am just not aware of them. Sigs do not have a safety to prevent an ND and should NEVER be carried this way.

I do know someone who shot themselves in the leg doing what you suggest. Lots of money, time and effort to get him back on his feet and he will never be 100%. He is lucky he is not dead. A few inches in the wrong direction and he would have bled out.

The H&K USP v1 is an excellent option for carrying cocked and locked if you are not a fan of 1911s. Though I can't imagine why you would not be a fan of the 1911. I sold my H&K USPC .40S&W a few months back to raise funds to go to a wedding back East. Miss it, but I love my Glock so its not a huge loss.

bsg
06-23-2010, 5:37 PM
not a good idea.

peterabbits
06-23-2010, 8:54 PM
i have a SAO sig P220 carry - it doesn't have the grip safety but it does have the manual thumb safety. and i LOVE this gun, way more than my DA/SA P220. don't have a CCW yet so i haven't carried, but as it is an SAO i had planned on carrying cocked and locked when i do finally get the permit. given the above comments about sig's not having manual safeties etc, just confirming that because it is an SAO and does have the manual thumb safety this is an appropriate way to carry it? as opposed to needing to rack a round into the chamber or manually cock the hammer if heaven forbid circumstances dictate?

obviously as i go through the CCW process i will be taking a class that i can only assume would address this issue, but i'll take advantage of this thread to pose the question to the collective brain trust that is calguns.

thanks!

esskay
06-23-2010, 9:38 PM
i have a SAO sig P220 carry - it doesn't have the grip safety but it does have the manual thumb safety. and i LOVE this gun, way more than my DA/SA P220. don't have a CCW yet so i haven't carried, but as it is an SAO i had planned on carrying cocked and locked when i do finally get the permit. given the above comments about sig's not having manual safeties etc, just confirming that because it is an SAO and does have the manual thumb safety this is an appropriate way to carry it? as opposed to needing to rack a round into the chamber or manually cock the hammer if heaven forbid circumstances dictate?

obviously as i go through the CCW process i will be taking a class that i can only assume would address this issue, but i'll take advantage of this thread to pose the question to the collective brain trust that is calguns.

thanks!

Yeah, the manual of arms for your 220 SAO will be similar to a 1911 -- carry it cocked and locked or chamber empty. People were generalizing about Sigs, there are just a few models like yours (or certain X5s) which are single action.

BigDogatPlay
06-23-2010, 10:26 PM
If the Sig is either regular DA or DAK, then there really is no reason to carry the piece cocked.

If you want to carry a Sig in condition one, then I'd recommend one of the SAO models.

You might want to consider the short reset trigger modification. While it doesn't necessarily shorten the DA pull, it makes the SA pull remarkably short and crisp. If the factory does the work, the pistol will almost certainly come back smoother than when you sent it. I highly recommend it.

f-ponce
08-07-2010, 9:04 PM
I was in AmmoBros two weeks ago and I noticed one of the guys behind the counter had his sidearm (didn't try to identify it) holstered cocked...I could see the hammer back....pretty un professional in my book....loved the store tho.

To clarify a bit. The only guns carried at our Cerritos location are Glocks, M&Ps, and 1911s.
All 1911s are carried condition 1, "cocked and locked." It might look "unprofessional" and even scary, but it is the preferred mode of readiness of the 1911 platform. Jason carries the 1911, he has over twenty years of service to our country in the Marine Corps.

Glad you liked the store, come and visit soon.

Francisco
Ammo Bros Cerritos

faterikcartman
08-07-2010, 10:58 PM
Man, my whole attraction to these guns is the DA/SA operation. I always have the first shot on DA so no accidental discharges. If you train with it enough I think you become very used to it. If you don't like it, send it in to Sig to have converted to DAK.