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View Full Version : Self-Defense Flashlights -- Weapon or Not?


Stealth
06-21-2010, 12:07 PM
I went to the Sleep Train Pavillion in Concord last night for a concert. On the web it says "No weapons allowed". Before entering they do a pat-down to insure this.

Legally I think this is okay as I think they can set these kind of rules. My friends and I parked a mile away to avoid the congestion of post-concert traffic and walked in and out of the venue. At night when walking back it is dark along Kirker Pass road with no street lights and you are hugging a thick tree lined area next to the sidewalk.

I left behind my folder knife in my vehicle and I debated bringing with me my self-defense light (Surefire Defender). However looking at the flashlight it has these "teeth" surrounding the front. Knowing they would do a pat down and because the flashlight looks "evil" I decided to leave it behind. However walking back at night, I wish I had it to help light the way in a few dark spots.

This got me to thinking, is this kind of flashlight a weapon? I was glancing the penal code and I couldn't see anything useful.

Glock22Fan
06-21-2010, 12:13 PM
A large Maglite is effective, and less controversial.

I doubt that there is a definitive answer to your question. I think it would depend upon what the LEO thinks, whether the D.A. agrees and whether the D.A. can convice a jury.

My guess is that depending upon your appearance and demeanor, most cops would let it go - but IANAL and that is a guess.

Billy Jack
06-21-2010, 12:25 PM
This Brave routinely carries a Mini Mag or a Stream Lite after dark or in unfamiliar venue. Old Native saying: 'Better to carry light, then curse darkness'. A little illumination can go a long way and both these lights, in a bind, can be effective 'in close' weapons and they do not require a permit.

Billy Jack
'The Force is strong with this one'


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

garrett916
06-21-2010, 12:29 PM
i carry a surefire defender all the time because thier is no regulations or laws on them and they are really usefull. I am in the security industry so i know that it just depends on the security at the facility you were in. You were in a private place and they set thier rules. It doesnt have to be law for them to enforce. At most concerts and clubs they wont allow you to carry anything in that could be used as a weapon at all

stix213
06-21-2010, 12:32 PM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000056BME.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

6 D cell maglite would make a good weapon. I know a guy who used to carry one as a security guard cause his company wouldn't let him carry anything else.

BKinzey
06-21-2010, 12:32 PM
Depends on what you do with it. Get in a fight and leave an impression of those teeth on someone's forehead I think that would certainly be enough to be charged.

For practical reasons I think you made the correct choice. Depending on who was doing the searching you could have been faced with the choice with leaving it at the gate, never to see it again, or returning to your vehicle to leave it there. There is the possibility you could be charged for something.

If someone were to ask what those teeth are for how would you answer?

I can't point to PC and I doubt "Teeth on a flashlight" is specifically mentioned but it probably is more generally covered.

I also don't think at an event like that they need to have a specific law to refuse entry. I'm thinking in the same vein as if you carried a brick up to the gate.

bigcalidave
06-21-2010, 12:33 PM
Damn! You made it to that Maiden concert didn't you! Arrgh I'm so mad I missed it!

BKinzey
06-21-2010, 12:36 PM
You aren't getting in with a D cell maglight either:rolleyes:

ScorpioVI
06-21-2010, 12:37 PM
I have several flashlights that I alternate use with (including the Surefire 6P). I don't consider any of them to be "self-defense flashlights". They're flashlights that might happen to come in handy in a self-defense, should the need arise, either as a fist-load, or to temporarily blind an opponent with. But I don't carry flashlights for the express purpose of "self-defense". It just happens to be a tool that can be improvised towards that purpose, and I can do that with a pen, and my car keys.

None of my flashlights have a crenelated bezel though. I think you're just looking to get your *** in a crack carrying a light with a crenelated bezel. Far easier to explain to the judge, "your honor, I was just taking a walk in the dark with my Surefire 6P..." than to have to explain why a Surefire Defender has a wicked-looking head on it and why it's called a "Defender".

adrenalinemedic
06-21-2010, 2:10 PM
than to have to explain why a Surefire Defender has a wicked-looking head on it and why it's called a "Defender".

I gotta take the opposite side on this, and actually feel you make my point for me.

Its a Surefire Defender. Not Surefire Attacker, Surefire Aggressor, Surefire Destroyer, or Surefire Forehead Cheese Grater.

The name and the marketing only work in your favor. Consider the difference between compensators, muzzle brakes, and flash hiders and how the DOJ looks at them...you getting hemmed up basically comes down to what the manufacturer markets it as.

I'm not a lawyer, but I carry my Defender LED constantly at night, and always in non-permissive environments such as airports.

BoxesOfLiberty
06-21-2010, 2:13 PM
This got me to thinking, is this kind of flashlight a weapon? I was glancing the penal code and I couldn't see anything useful.

I think the practical answer is yes it is a weapon. Can you think of another reason to carry this type of light as opposed to something like a Surefire 6P or Streamlight Stinger? Carrying one and claiming that it is just a flashlight is similar to carrying a kubo and claiming it is just a keychain.

As to legality, I think these fall into the treacherous gray area known as "officer's discretion". A police officer could reaonably argue that these meet the definition of metal knuckles as described in PC 12020.

PC 12020(c)(7): As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.

But that same arguments (aside from the projections or studs) could be applied to a mini maglight (or a roll of nickels for that matter), if you hit someone with one of those.

ke6guj
06-21-2010, 2:14 PM
If someone were to ask what those teeth are for how would you answer?
.they are there so that I can see if I left the light on when I set it down. I've done that before, left a light on and set it face down. wasted a brand new set of 123's doing that. With the notches in the bezel, I can see if the light is on when it is on the desk.

Decoligny
06-21-2010, 2:22 PM
i carry a surefire defender all the time because thier is no regulations or laws on them and they are really usefull. I am in the security industry so i know that it just depends on the security at the facility you were in. You were in a private place and they set thier rules. It doesnt have to be law for them to enforce. At most concerts and clubs they wont allow you to carry anything in that could be used as a weapon at all

If they are open to the public, then they better allow me in with my cane. If not then they better be willing to either provide me with a wheelchair, or risk an ADA lawsuit. Especially if I flash them my VA Card which says my disability is "Service Connected" on it.

I also always carry a mini maglite which can be useful in "dark places".

squishyhead
06-21-2010, 2:24 PM
I've carried my 6P defender through airport security dozens of times in my backpack and never been stopped once.

NorCalDustin
06-21-2010, 2:37 PM
Honestly any flashlight that's metal can easily and quickly be turned into a very deadly weapon.

I keep a 4Sevens light with me at all times. The two main mode I have set as Max Light Output and Strobe. I keep it set to strobe as the default of the two main modes. This strobe mode will blind your ***** and you will want to leave.

Also keep in mind that just about any very bright flashlight turns you into a hard target if you shine that in someones face and is a deterrent. An attacker will prefer a soft target, that flashlight turns the dynamic.

Keep a good light with you at all times.

Just my $0.02

Window_Seat
06-21-2010, 2:51 PM
http://www.bigskyballoons.com/images/Shop_lights_lg.jpg
:cool:
This would be alright, wouldn't it?

Erik.

wash
06-21-2010, 2:51 PM
I took my Surefire Pen (2) through security at SCOTUS.

Any security that tries to take it away or deny entry could probably be hit with a pretty good first amendment lawsuit.

I just think it's far less likely to cause problems but still hefty and pointy which some people think is good.

Carrying a pen and a cheapo flashlight (AAA battery?) might be the best way to get through security intact.

garrett916
06-21-2010, 2:58 PM
If they are open to the public, then they better allow me in with my cane. If not then they better be willing to either provide me with a wheelchair, or risk an ADA lawsuit. Especially if I flash them my VA Card which says my disability is "Service Connected" on it.

I also always carry a mini maglite which can be useful in "dark places".

obviosly if you need some sort of device for health reasons such as a cane they wouldnt do that but if they said no pens or shoes with pointy front or what ever they want they can do that

Window_Seat
06-21-2010, 3:12 PM
If you are concerned about getting your "tactical" flashlight taken away, could one convert one of those cheapo "evereadys" into something that puts out 2500 lumens and has a strobe function? You'd be paying for it, I imagine.

Erik.

GearHead
06-21-2010, 3:29 PM
I routinely fly with my SureFire E2D LED in my carryon. No issues yet.

Untamed1972
06-21-2010, 3:32 PM
If you carried the big maglite with the intention of using it as a weapon and made the mistake of telling a LEO that's why you are carrying it you could find yourself looking at a "posession of a baton/billy club" charge.

So make sure you grill it into your head that you're carrying it so you can see in the dark.

VictorFranko
06-21-2010, 3:36 PM
I carry my Surefire LX2 Lumamax 24-7.
"NO, IT IS NOT A WEAPON, IT IS ONLY A FLASHLIGHT"
This is a public forum, anything you say here can and will be used against you at a later date.

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/7eAdXOta-9x-OveT151GRB4-hKiaToUaX4Dd7tDmJ0qPB7rmjKP5eGdRaJpLdCnq6EfOcS44R4 FzWBTiW5IKrWyA0a5TC8UK5vlzOp1_mB0HBt--CoszmGm1Plg5PYIfuZqTMHTGCNnWxvP_m_-tOC2P7tmk9IQ

SJgunguy24
06-21-2010, 4:07 PM
I think the practical answer is yes it is a weapon. Can you think of another reason to carry this type of light as opposed to something like a Surefire 6P or Streamlight Stinger? Carrying one and claiming that it is just a flashlight is similar to carrying a kubo and claiming it is just a keychain.

As to legality, I think these fall into the treacherous gray area known as "officer's discretion". A police officer could reaonably argue that these meet the definition of metal knuckles as described in PC 12020.

But that same arguments (aside from the projections or studs) could be applied to a mini maglight (or a roll of nickels for that matter), if you hit someone with one of those.


The key word in this part of the law is worn you do not wear a flashlight. Now I do think that a DA can use your use of the flashlight as a weapon against you. Your lawyer will need to sell your case to the jury if your charged.

If you carry a roll of coins with you, well thats a pretty tough sell IMO. It's pretty obvious your looking for trouble unless your parking in a metered area or going to do laundry. A flashlight in your pocket, knowing you have to walk to your car at night by yourself on an unlit roadway is going to be an easier sell.
Just my .02, and I do carry a flashlight everywhere I go.


PC 12020(c)(7): As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.

Bishop
06-21-2010, 4:44 PM
Most weapons are only weapons if you express intent to use them as weapons. If a cop asks you why you have a giant mag-lite in your driver-side door pocket, and you say "To bash skulls." or "In case of carjackers." He can charge you for having a bludgeoning weapon. Likewise, if a cop notices you carrying a pocket knife, and gets you to admit that hypothetically, you could possibly use it as a weapon in a self defense scenario, your tool is now a weapon, and he could charge you for carrying a weapon. The specifics of the charges pertain to weapons as opposed to the specific item or infraction, like carrying a folding knife, or having a flashlight within reach, at least that's how my dad (30 years in LASD) explained it to me. That's why you can get arrested for carrying a spark plug or a roll of nickels if the cop can get you to say you carry it for more "punch."

So just make sure that your flashlight is ONLY for looking in dark places, and your knife is ONLY for opening boxes.

But your stated intent may be overshadowed if your product is specifically marketed as a self-defense tool. You might be able to say you just saw it and bought it because it looked cool and had no idea about the self defense applications, but that really depends on how "offensive" the item looks.

Same thing with those self defense pens. Say you use it to dissuade a drunk who sues for damages, saying he had a little too much to drink and was just messing around, but you escalated the force alarmingly and disproportionately. Not only that, after you poked him with it, he has nerve damage, neck pain, headaches, night terrors, and cancer. Do you think the jury is going to look favorably on the fact that you went out to a bar, and brought along your $100 Surefire Ultra Defense Attack Pen? (Remember, we live in California...)

On a completely unrelated note, I carry a PDA stylus, that is a PDA stylus, and not a kubaton. It's pen-shaped, has a pocket clip, and has grip indents on it exactly like a kubaton, but it's a stylus. It has no manufacturer markings on it, it's not labeled "HYPER DEFENSE PEN IIIA," and it doesn't unscrew to conceal a hidden blade (those are very illegal btw). I suppose it could technically be used as a kubaton, but so could any number of objects.

If a cop asks me about it, I'll tell him the truth; "It's a PDA stylus, I don't even know what a 'cooby tawn' is. What? Yeah, it's got a big tip for a stylus, and to tell the truth, it kind of sucks as a stylus, but my wife/girlfriend got it for my birthday, and she was really excited about it, and she makes sure I put it in my pocket every day so I can think about her when I use it. What? It's a weapon? Oh, no, officer, it's just a piece of plastic I use for touch screen electronics. Besides, I could never use it as a weapon, I'm a pacifist."

Shotgun Man
06-21-2010, 5:08 PM
Depends on what you do with it. Get in a fight and leave an impression of those teeth on someone's forehead I think that would certainly be enough to be charged.

For practical reasons I think you made the correct choice. Depending on who was doing the searching you could have been faced with the choice with leaving it at the gate, never to see it again, or returning to your vehicle to leave it there. There is the possibility you could be charged for something.

If someone were to ask what those teeth are for how would you answer?

I can't point to PC and I doubt "Teeth on a flashlight" is specifically mentioned but it probably is more generally covered.

I also don't think at an event like that they need to have a specific law to refuse entry. I'm thinking in the same vein as if you carried a brick up to the gate.

The crenelated bezel is useful to show your light is turned on when placed bezel down on a flat surface.

ke6guj
06-21-2010, 5:13 PM
The crenelated bezel is useful to show your light is turned on when placed bezel down on a flat surface.yup, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4491405&postcount=12

gunsmith
06-21-2010, 6:10 PM
I've both used my surefire as a weapon ( 9p ) & brought it with me to secure facillities(SP) like the fed building.
besides using it as impact/kubotan it can temporarily blind if used at night.

Librarian
06-21-2010, 6:26 PM
I went to the Sleep Train Pavillion in Concord last night for a concert. On the web it says "No weapons allowed". Before entering they do a pat-down to insure this.

Legally I think this is okay as I think they can set these kind of rules. My friends and I parked a mile away to avoid the congestion of post-concert traffic and walked in and out of the venue. At night when walking back it is dark along Kirker Pass road with no street lights and you are hugging a thick tree lined area next to the sidewalk.

I left behind my folder knife in my vehicle and I debated bringing with me my self-defense light (Surefire Defender). However looking at the flashlight it has these "teeth" surrounding the front. Knowing they would do a pat down and because the flashlight looks "evil" I decided to leave it behind. However walking back at night, I wish I had it to help light the way in a few dark spots.

This got me to thinking, is this kind of flashlight a weapon? I was glancing the penal code and I couldn't see anything useful.

I work security there - so long as you were not waving it around 'to the terror of the populace', flashlight with teeth is OK. I took the striking bezel off my M20 because it's my everyday pocket carry.

STP has some dumb rules, but not that one, yet.

(Wasn't at Friday's show, though, had another engagement)

packnrat
06-21-2010, 7:08 PM
why would someone not have a flashlight close at hand?? my house does not have lighting on when i am away so walking to or from the house it can be very dark, i need to see the stepping stones and the steps..plus find the door lock for the keys.

sure most homes have better lighting..but sometimes the lights do burn out.
a mini mag light fits in the purse or pocket real good. and is not scary looking. but i do like my led 4D mag lights.

great for search and rescue work. finding that deer/bear you shot and tracked...and your way back to the truck.

---but note it is not a very good thing to track a wounded bear at night---


.

USAFTS
06-21-2010, 7:28 PM
If you carried the big maglite with the intention of using it as a weapon and made the mistake of telling a LEO that's why you are carrying it you could find yourself looking at a "posession of a baton/billy club" charge.

So make sure you grill it into your head that you're carrying it so you can see in the dark.

I ran this question by a LEO friend of mine and he says that it will probably depend upon where you are and the circumstances. The primary purpose and design of a flashlight is illumination. I was advised that if I used my light as an impact weapon in a legitimate defensive situation, I would likely be OK legally...BUT to always carry extra bulbs. If the light works when LE arrives, it is a flashlight. If the light does not work... it is a baton/billy club. The circumstances will ultimately determine if there will be charges.

As far as the venue is concerned, they can say no to bringing in just about anything. You may or may not agree with it, but their rules are required for entry and you basically agreed to their rules upon purchase of the ticket.

Sniper3142
06-21-2010, 7:30 PM
Most weapons are only weapons if you express intent to use them as weapons. If a cop asks you why you have a giant mag-lite in your driver-side door pocket, and you say "To bash skulls." or "In case of carjackers." He can charge you for having a bludgeoning weapon. Likewise, if a cop notices you carrying a pocket knife, and gets you to admit that hypothetically, you could possibly use it as a weapon in a self defense scenario, your tool is now a weapon, and he could charge you for carrying a weapon.

+1 to This

ANYTHING can be considered a weapon (the pen really is mightier than the sword... in a CQB situation). ;)

I EDC a light and sometimes its a Surefire E2DL while others its a Nitecore D10 or a Fenix LD10. 2 of them have a crenellated bezel (the Surefires is called a Strike Bezel) but I use them as illumination tools.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Decoligny
06-21-2010, 8:07 PM
why would someone not have a flashlight close at hand?? my house does not have lighting on when i am away so walking to or from the house it can be very dark, i need to see the stepping stones and the steps..plus find the door lock for the keys.

sure most homes have better lighting..but sometimes the lights do burn out.
a mini mag light fits in the purse or pocket real good. and is not scary looking. but i do like my led 4D mag lights.

great for search and rescue work. finding that deer/bear you shot and tracked...and your way back to the truck.

---but note it is not a very good thing to track a wounded bear at night---


.

I went through more than 24 hours of absolute darkness, no electricity, no moon, no sun, no stars, only my mini maglite. This was in the Philippines when Mt Pinatubo erupted. Ash cloud blacked out everything like being blindfolded in a coffin under 6 feet of earth dark.

I go NOWHERE without a flashlight.

BKinzey
06-21-2010, 8:20 PM
they are there so that I can see if I left the light on when I set it down. I've done that before, left a light on and set it face down. wasted a brand new set of 123's doing that. With the notches in the bezel, I can see if the light is on when it is on the desk.

The crenelated bezel is useful to show your light is turned on when placed bezel down on a flat surface.


Well, good luck with that. Here's 2 statements off of Surefire's web site:

tactical-level light plus a crenellated Strike Bezelģ and a scalloped tailcap that provide two sets of aluminum "teeth" that serve as a last line of defense.

Strike Bezelģ provides personal defense option

You may be able to pass it as an added feature but I'd seriously doubt you'd be able to sell it as it's primary purpose.

TempleKnight
06-21-2010, 8:31 PM
+1 to carrying a flashlight. I have one in each of my vehicles, in my range bag and I carry an E2E with me.

It really never occured to me that security/LEOs might consider a light an offensive weapon. Has anyone ever heard of robbery/mugging perpetrated with a Surefire 6P sized light?

BigDogatPlay
06-21-2010, 9:42 PM
Flashlight is a must, at all times. I keep a Streamlight SL-20 in my truck, and have a small cheapie LED to back that up in the center console. When out and about, a Sure Fire 6P has been a companion for many years. I don't travel anyplace without one of them.

Cobrafreak
06-21-2010, 9:50 PM
A self defense cane. They can't take it away from you. There is a "fighting cane" which has the bottom of the hook that you hold a sharp point. Very effective if you train with it.

GoodEyeSniper
06-21-2010, 9:54 PM
that flashlight clearly has a flash hider. It still needs a BB to be legal.

swhatb
06-21-2010, 10:43 PM
Mini Mag 'The Force is strong with this one' :p

This Brave routinely carries a Mini Mag or a Stream Lite after dark or in unfamiliar venue. Old Native saying: 'Better to carry light, then curse darkness'. A little illumination can go a long way and both these lights, in a bind, can be effective 'in close' weapons and they do not require a permit.

Billy Jack
'The Force is strong with this one'


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

N6ATF
06-21-2010, 11:03 PM
The 3C cell MagLite is more lightsaber hilt sized, IMO.

postal
06-21-2010, 11:37 PM
I have the "civilian" 6P light.

I'm "aware" of the "defender".

I probably should carry my regular 6p, and pepper spray, and long blade folding knife anywhere I go.

While in my work van with over a thousand pounds of tools and equipment in it... there is a machete within arms reach.

Also, a cheapo LED metal flashlight, a claw hammer, prybar, crowbar, LONG screwdriver, several pens... and my business cards....

I also have a small pair of twig cutters.

The machete actually is a part of the regular tools of my trade.... and the twig cutters reinforce the the fact. Yes I do have to "trim your bush" sometimes.... to get to your Air Conditioner.

None of this stuff is out of place in a Ford E350 full size work van with 2 ladders on top and 1500 pounds of tools and supplies in it.

Flashlight, claw hammer and machete just seem to fit in the van very well within arms reach of the drivers seat.

Very soon I expect to qualify for a valid ccw permit though. As I do work in really nasty parts of town... and I do have this E350 with $15K worth of tools in it..... including that cheapo machete....

Obviously, you cant outfit your "prius" like this... but the full size work van with all kinds of tools can be arranged conveniently.

Stealth
06-22-2010, 9:07 AM
Yah I am gonna get a regular looking flashlight for the future. So if I am at a place that is sensitive to such things I can remove any potential doubt.

So many good practical uses for a tactical or self-defense flashlight, hard to not have one avaliable.

Bugei
06-22-2010, 9:44 AM
Just about anything works as a weapon. Keys. A pen. Two lug nuts and 12' of paracord. I'm reading this thread and musing about carrying a standard chemical lightstick. Should be strong enough for limited use as a kubotan, and one end is usually thinnner (the end with the hole for hanging.)

But I'm also reminded that I don't go places anymore where I'm searched with intent to render me harmless. I haven't had to fly anywhere in the last five years or so and don't intend to unless TSA changes its ways. I don't go to concerts like the OP because you just become part of a target-rich environment for the bad guys, with the law holding your arms as the bad guys do what bad guys do to you.

The world has changed and our laws have changed in exactly the wrong way. I'm not playing anymore. If you go this way and avoid gun-free zones, you'll miss out on many of the things we used to take for granted as being part of a full and rich life. But survival situations have never included those things.

Stealth
06-22-2010, 10:02 AM
Yah I agree with everyone's opinion that any item can be used as a weapon. I took some martial arts where they taught how any item can be used as an improvised weapon.

The key is preception. If people see car keys they think its something to start your engine of your car. They don't first think "hey I could puncture an attacker with these and defend myself".

Corbin Dallas
06-22-2010, 10:03 AM
I think the practical answer is yes it is a weapon. Can you think of another reason to carry this type of light as opposed to something like a Surefire 6P or Streamlight Stinger? Carrying one and claiming that it is just a flashlight is similar to carrying a kubo and claiming it is just a keychain.

As to legality, I think these fall into the treacherous gray area known as "officer's discretion". A police officer could reaonably argue that these meet the definition of metal knuckles as described in PC 12020.

PC 12020(c)(7): As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.



But that same arguments (aside from the projections or studs) could be applied to a mini maglight (or a roll of nickels for that matter), if you hit someone with one of those.


When I read PC12020(c)(7) I think of this...

Sub the plastic fork for a metal one and you are in violation of PC12020(c)(7)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2985439377_e40043e831.jpg

N6ATF
06-22-2010, 10:06 AM
I might get a titanium spork at some point, but not for use as a weapon. LOL

YubaRiver
06-22-2010, 10:22 AM
Only in CA would this be a debate.


My wife once was choked by a roadie at a Greatful Dead concert using
a mini mag light. Apparently we were leaving the concert by an incorrect
route. Before I could think to react, she knee'd him in the nuts. We took
off while he yelled "assault".

Glad that Graham guy that put on those shows died. I blame him and Dick
Cheney.

A minimag is not much of a weapon. A sharp pencil, now there is a weapon.;)

Decoligny
06-22-2010, 11:39 AM
I might get a titanium spork at some point, but not for use as a weapon. LOL

I prefer the Titanium ChopSticks, the ends are sandblasted to allow for greater food grippig ability.

You never know when you might get a craving for Sweet and Sour Pork!

http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/72/71622/tia.gif

Decoligny
06-22-2010, 11:43 AM
Just about anything works as a weapon. Keys. A pen. Two lug nuts and 12' of paracord. I'm reading this thread and musing about carrying a standard chemical lightstick. Should be strong enough for limited use as a kubotan, and one end is usually thinnner (the end with the hole for hanging.)

But I'm also reminded that I don't go places anymore where I'm searched with intent to render me harmless. I haven't had to fly anywhere in the last five years or so and don't intend to unless TSA changes its ways. I don't go to concerts like the OP because you just become part of a target-rich environment for the bad guys, with the law holding your arms as the bad guys do what bad guys do to you.

The world has changed and our laws have changed in exactly the wrong way. I'm not playing anymore. If you go this way and avoid gun-free zones, you'll miss out on many of the things we used to take for granted as being part of a full and rich life. But survival situations have never included those things.

I have carried my cane and my flashlight on aircraft, and in both Federal and County Courts.

N6ATF
06-22-2010, 12:14 PM
I prefer the Titanium ChopSticks, the ends are sandblasted to allow for greater food grippig ability.

You never know when you might get a craving for Sweet and Sour Pork!

http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/72/71622/tia.gif

Ooh, thanks, wishlisted.

akoba
08-09-2010, 7:06 PM
i use my tigerlight :D http://www.tigerlight.net/selfdefense_files/SeriesIIILOiweb.jpg

misterjake
08-09-2010, 7:13 PM
I tell them it has an edged bezel in case my car is submerged in water, I can quickly break the window and help my family escape safely. :)

curtisfong
08-09-2010, 7:20 PM
Never, ever, tell anybody that something you are carrying is a weapon.

Only cops are allowed to call things they carry "weapons".

pullnshoot25
08-09-2010, 7:56 PM
You guys are looking way too far into this.

For starters, I am not aware of venues searching people heading into an arena. Since that is not the case, simply put your knife into the inside of your waistband and relax. Other viable options are over the crotch or under the armpit. Be creative.

Secondly, I have yet to meet someone that considers a flashlight a weapon, especially a small EDC one. There are no restrictions on flashlights, there are no codes to support it and I don't think that most security guards are savvy enough to know the difference.

If you are paranoid about even that, there is a flashlight with retractable blades/sharp scallops in the bezel, such as this one. (http://www.phoebus.com/spike.html)

For the TLDR version: Following stupid policies is stupid, do don't do it.

rips31
08-09-2010, 10:25 PM
If someone were to ask what those teeth are for how would you answer?

i tell people that if i dropped the flashlight, the teeth keep the lens from directly contacting the ground, at least on the initial impact.

i carry my nitecore defender infinity everywhere. just took it through sfo/lax airports (carry-on) this past weekend. it's gone with me up to the statue of liberty, empire state building, us capitol building, various state/federal buildings, and various domestic and international airports (all carry-on). haven't had anyone say anything about it, other than how cool it was and where they could get one.

Maestro Pistolero
08-09-2010, 11:37 PM
I use it to crack nuts. :43:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDdgbBmN627uKMJrXuZlNzlOs5vWJ_f Tp1LZO7BdWqZBu40Fk&t=1&usg=__QU3KzOa95p8HvJfWZd8Qkwcn7mo=

Seriously, I have flown more than a dozen times with my Surefire LED Defender in my carry on. It's a flashlight, now everyone shut the hell up about it.

radioman
08-09-2010, 11:43 PM
I gotta take the opposite side on this, and actually feel you make my point for me.

Its a Surefire Defender. Not Surefire Attacker, Surefire Aggressor, Surefire Destroyer, or Surefire Forehead Cheese Grater.

The name and the marketing only work in your favor. Consider the difference between compensators, muzzle brakes, and flash hiders and how the DOJ looks at them...you getting hemmed up basically comes down to what the manufacturer markets it as.

I'm not a lawyer, but I carry my Defender LED constantly at night, and always in non-permissive environments such as airports.

kind of like the colt peace maker. and yes, the word club comes to mind, get something in the way a flashlight you can't beat someones head in with.

colossians323
08-10-2010, 3:45 AM
I debated bringing with me my self-defense light (Surefire Defender). However looking at the flashlight it has these "teeth" surrounding the front. Knowing they would do a pat down and because the flashlight looks "evil" I decided to leave it behind. However walking back at night, I wish I had it to help light the way in a few dark spots.




I take mine in carry on luggage all the time to and from LA:). Haven't had them take it out once and ask me about it:eek:

VictorFranko
08-10-2010, 5:01 AM
I carry my Surefire LX2 Lumamax 24-7.

Stealth
08-10-2010, 8:07 AM
For starters, I am not aware of venues searching people heading into an arena. Since that is not the case, simply put your knife into the inside of your waistband and relax. Other viable options are over the crotch or under the armpit. Be creative.

Seen it alot lately. Maybe I just pick concerts or events with high security.

From the areas they checked they would find the knife in the armpit (you have to hold your arms up and they do a glide/pat down from armpit to waist then they circle the waist.

Seems like they were checking more for Concealed firearms than knives. They checked the obvious places for a holster.

I agree with you, one could be creative and get in something.

ZombieTactics
08-10-2010, 8:29 AM
A few thoughts:
The staff at SleepTrain amphitheater isn't exactly "diligent" in their search methods. My wife and I go to a lot of shows there, and we routinely pack so much "hardware" it's silly.

ARCO arena is another story. Metal detectors make a difference. My wife has MS and I have arthritis. She has an aluminum cane, I have a Cold Steel walking stick. We both carry Fenix LD20 flashlights. I have a SOG Fusion Micro on my keychain which has never been noticed ... comes off the chain and clipped on a pocket the second we are inside. She has one of those Cold Steel hairbrush things.

Yes, we're a little silly that way. :rolleyes: Having been assaulted a couple of times makes you a little crazy. :TFH:

Steyr_223
08-10-2010, 8:46 AM
You had your car keys right?

http://bojukaselfdefense.blogspot.com/

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LnusoRUw6kw/SOtqcsKP0II/AAAAAAAAABM/pmsgw-hT1G8/s400/self-defense-keys.jpg

How To Use Your Keys For Self Defense!
Iíve written in previous articles about having your keys in your hands before you leave a building to go to your car, or before you exit the car. This will prevent you from having to having to dig around in your pockets or purse to find them when you need them. Remember, professional criminals are waiting for these types of distractions to make their move. In this article I will discuss another great reason for having your keys in your hands: using your keys as a weapon for self defense.

In order to effectively use your keys for self defense requires them to be in your hand and to be held in such a way that you can deliver strikes to vulnerable parts of your attackerís anatomy. There is a right way and a wrong way to hold your keys for this purpose.

THE WRONG WAY TO HOLD YOUR KEYS
Letís go over the wrong way to hold your keys first so we can clear up some misconceptions. Iíve seen martial arts and self defense instructors teaching this method for decades and it needs to come to an end. The method most often taught is to place individual keys between each of your fingers turning your ring of keys into pseudo brass knuckles. The concept in itself is not bad: youíve added range to your fist, and the keys should rip, tear and puncture the flesh of your would-be assailant. In fact, you will probably effectively do all these things and more. Once your strike hits bone, muscle or heavy clothing the keys are going to twist and turn between your fingers causing a blooding and painful mess of your hand. You may have slowed down your attacker but youíve also created open wounds filled with your blood and his. Youíve greatly increased your chances of contracting blood-borne pathogens (diseases) from your assailant. In addition, your keys may damage nerves or break the bones in your fingers as the keys compress together. What might have seemed like a good idea at first glance now proves to be painfully wrong.

THE RIGHT WAY TO HOLD YOUR KEYS
So, how do you effectively hold your keys for self defense while minimizing the risk of personal injury? First, go through your keys and select the one you deem to be the longest and strongest key you have. Now, hold that key firmly between your thumb and curled index finger. The key should be extended past your fist like an extension of your thumb. You can hold the remaining keys in your fist (see the picture below if you arenít sure what I mean). Holding your keys in this manner will give you an effective poking and thrusting tool. Quite often, your largest key is also the key you use to open your car door so you will be that much more prepared to enter your vehicle without delay.

KNOWING WHERE TO STRIKE
Now that you are armed with your handy self defense weapon (one that you can carry anywhere without a concealed weapons permit or license) you need to know what areas of the body are vulnerable to attack. You need to shut down the assault as quickly as possible and create an opportunity to escape. Strikes to the meaty areas of the body like the chest, stomach, arms and legs will cause minimal pain and damage. If these are the only areas exposed to you, use strikes to these areas only to create a reaction that will expose more vulnerable targets.

Your primary targets should be the eyes or the throat. These areas are soft and filled with nerves. We are born with automatic responses to protect our eyes, throat and face in general. Even if your attacker is wearing glasses, a strike to this area will cause a reaction and may create the opportunity you need to RUN!!!

In the event that you are grabbed from behind you may be able to attack the back or your attackers hands and cause him to let go. The back of the hand is covered in nerves. Use your key to strike these nerves or press hard and grind back of his hands with the end of your key.

The fact is, if your strike someone in the eyes you are going to cause damage, you may even blind the person. Ask yourself what damage your assailant may have caused you if you didnít fight back? Does he care about your well being? If he gets you into the truck of his car, do you really think heís going to let you go unharmed? You need to make the decision for yourself right now that your life is the most precious thing your have. FIGHT FOR IT!!!

Wherryj
08-10-2010, 9:09 AM
A large Maglite is effective, and less controversial.

I doubt that there is a definitive answer to your question. I think it would depend upon what the LEO thinks, whether the D.A. agrees and whether the D.A. can convice a jury.

My guess is that depending upon your appearance and demeanor, most cops would let it go - but IANAL and that is a guess.

The Mag would be harder to carry around without appearing to be a weapon. That and the Surfire's output may be enough to momentarily give you the advantage in a nighttime situation. Mag doesn't make a light bright enough.

It's a good question whether they'd consider it a "weapon", but perhaps going with one of the lights that doesn't have the "teeth" might be a better idea.

Those don't appear capable of doing any real damage, but I can see where a rent-a-cop might get scared, and after all, "If you scare me, your rights mean nothing."

Perhaps one of the new Fenix lights would suffice?

inbox485
08-10-2010, 1:57 PM
I carry a flashlight like that on planes and into courthouses. I can't see a concert venue having an issue with it.

curtisfong
08-10-2010, 2:15 PM
Its a Surefire Defender. Not Surefire Attacker, Surefire Aggressor, Surefire Destroyer, or Surefire Forehead Cheese Grater.

The name and the marketing only work in your favor.

IMO, you're wrong. The name clearly can make it a "weapon". Anything you carry is a weapon if you say it is a weapon, or carry it with the intent to use it as a weapon.

Unless you are a cop, of course.

Which brings us to this:


It's a good question whether they'd consider it a "weapon"

"They" consider it a weapon if you consider it a weapon.

Big Jake
08-10-2010, 4:51 PM
I have a mag light that holds six d size batteries. I don't know about the legal definitions, however, this thing could crack a skull easily!

diginit
08-10-2010, 6:52 PM
All you people are assuming your assailant won't have a GUN!
You know the definition of assume? A machette, flashlight, Or even chop sticks won't help you unless you are attacked by a law abiding citizen.

Wherryj
08-11-2010, 9:36 AM
I might get a titanium spork at some point, but not for use as a weapon. LOL

The spork was a genius invention, at least for the comedic value.

Wherryj
08-11-2010, 9:38 AM
I carry a flashlight like that on planes and into courthouses. I can't see a concert venue having an issue with it.

...although if one compares airport and courthouse screener's acumen to that of a concert venue, even the airport screeners might be considered relative geniuses.

corrupt
08-11-2010, 12:24 PM
You're forgetting that flashlights would probably not be allowed in a concert anyway.

Stealth
08-11-2010, 1:00 PM
You had your car keys right?

Yah I study martial arts and we have improvised weapon days. Car Keys are very useful. Good link. Ty for posting.

Funny thou - they wouldn't take our car keys. They don't look dangerous. :/

Stealth
08-11-2010, 1:05 PM
You're forgetting that flashlights would probably not be allowed in a concert anyway.

I am sure weed isn't either....but funny how you can smell it there...

:/

Stealth
08-11-2010, 1:07 PM
All you people are assuming your assailant won't have a GUN!
You know the definition of assume? A machette, flashlight, Or even chop sticks won't help you unless you are attacked by a law abiding citizen.

True. We haven't forgotten about this. But until we can get CCW, we have to use what we can legally.

Although with concerts I doubt they would even let someone with a CCW carry inside. CCW seems good but I think ultimately private buisness/public places will just restrict CCW from being allowed on their grounds/buildings/events/what not.

Librarian
08-11-2010, 8:21 PM
...although if one compares airport and courthouse screener's acumen to that of a concert venue, even the airport screeners might be considered relative geniuses.
Hey, I resemble that remark - as I noted at the beginning of the thread, I do security at Sleep Train Pavilion in Concord.
You're forgetting that flashlights would probably not be allowed in a concert anyway.
The big MagLites, no, probably not. Anything pocket size, nobody is going to care.
Although with concerts I doubt they would even let someone with a CCW carry inside.
That's exactly the policy at Sleep Train in Concord. No appeal, no storage, you can have the purchase price for your ticket(s) refunded.

corrupt
08-12-2010, 3:34 AM
I dunno, maybe you haven't been to some of the concerts I've been to. They can be super anal about anything that might disturb the performers or the show, like a flashlight. Some specifically ban them (and do full pat-downs and searches of bags). I don't want to have to walk alllll the way back to the car or hide a $80 flashlight in some bushes, so I personally don't bring 'em.

Librarian
08-12-2010, 8:04 AM
Searches of bags are routine, but pat-downs are really rare - they slow down entry something awful in Concord; we always double the gate staff for those, and still it takes forever.

Mostly the artists specify cameras as things they don't want. That got a whole bunch harder when phones combined with cameras :eek: - no really good theory supports banning phones from coming in.

We have had at least one performer who didn't want bottles; all the soft drinks and such that folks brought had to be poured into cups at the gate.