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dfletcher
06-20-2010, 5:04 PM
I've read the roster is being challenged and wonder if it has been brought up that the roster actually keeps out guns that have new safety features specified in the roster itself.

Let's say Colt came out today with a 1911 with a mag disconnect safety and an LCI - let's say it was, other than those two items, identical to their Series 80 1911 already on the roster. Am I correct concluding that gun, unless submitted to CA DOJ for testing, would not be available in CA?

Whether Colt would or would not isn't the point, the gun - with features specified on the roster - would not be allowed for sale in CA. Doesn't this supposedly run contrary to the roster's stated reason of public safety?

Librarian
06-20-2010, 5:19 PM
Correct conclusion - unless submitted and placed on the Roster, could not be sold here to the hoi polloi.

The entire Roster is contrary to the idea of safety.

N6ATF
06-20-2010, 5:45 PM
"The Roster of Death; Criminals Can Have Any Gun They Want, YOU CAN'T! Now, DIE!"

IrishPirate
06-20-2010, 5:48 PM
The entire Roster is contrary to the idea of safety.

So true!!!

it is infact, a way for the PRK to make money on guns, while at the same time, trying to get rid of guns. It is nothing but feel good garbage proposed by bafoons who don't know the difference between a barrel shroud and a barn door.

Librarian
06-20-2010, 6:35 PM
As I said (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127) some time ago....

Is the Roster even about safety?

No. The original intent was to put ‘Ring of Fire’ gun manufacturers out of business. Unfortunately for that intent, the guns – Davis, Lorcin, Bryco etc. – passed the tests.

It is also intended to establish the legislature’s ability to classify some guns as ‘bad’, and others as ‘less bad’. In this they have succeeded.

hoffmang
06-20-2010, 8:32 PM
What ring of fire?

http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_&_Associates/Home_files/shapeimage_2.png

Oh.. This one... (http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_&_Associates/Jason_Davis.html)

-Gene

dennab
06-20-2010, 9:15 PM
After living in CA for 18 years and recently relo'ing to AZ, I look back on those days of "roster" guns, waiting periods and AR-15 flow charts with fond memories. Not. I have found freedom and an embrace of our basic rights only 6 hours to the east.

383green
06-20-2010, 9:18 PM
That's nice. In the mean time, us Californians have decided to fight this injustice rather than giving up and then gloating about it.

KylaGWolf
06-20-2010, 11:19 PM
A perfect example of the stupid roster is the Springfield XDM 40. The XDM has a safety whereas the XD does not. You can buy the XD in California but not the XDM. Which is stupid beyond compare. The only reason a new gun doesn't make the roster is the gun company refuses to pay the extortion fee the state wants for the right to sell the gun in this state.

tonelar
07-09-2010, 12:37 PM
Can someone link me to the legal challenge? My search-fu just brings up threads like this one.

OleCuss
07-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Can someone link me to the legal challenge? My search-fu just brings up threads like this one.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid

Librarian
07-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Can someone link me to the legal challenge? My search-fu just brings up threads like this one.

On the Calguns Foundation Wiki: Pena v Cid (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid)

(Thanks, OleCuss - you must type faster than I do!)

OleCuss
07-09-2010, 12:45 PM
Not often I beat the fabled Librarian! Seriously - you're the best at this kind of stuff.

OleCuss
07-09-2010, 1:00 PM
Pena looks to be good litigation. I'd not give up on getting rid of the current iteration of the roster.

It is, however, possible that there will be another form of roster even after Pena succeeds.

BlindRacer
07-09-2010, 1:03 PM
Do we know yet when Pena is going to move forward? It says on the wiki that's it's waiting for McDonald and Nordyke. So I guess my question would be when is Nordyke moving forward? And then how long after Nordyke would Pena start up again?

yellowfin
07-09-2010, 1:11 PM
I hope Pena gets going quickly enough so the legal team can do a Doolittle raid over here sometime in the unambiguously near future.

Maestro Pistolero
07-09-2010, 1:14 PM
I am stunned at the hubris of the State to decide that that a magazine disconnect, that most agencies and officers reject as unsafe for defensive use, is somehow a reasonable feature to foist upon the gun-owning citizens.

pnkssbtz
07-09-2010, 1:16 PM
On the Calguns Foundation Wiki: Pena v Cid (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid)

(Thanks, OleCuss - you must type faster than I do!)
So, now that we have Heller and McDonald, how is Pena v. Cid going to move forward?

OleCuss
07-09-2010, 1:37 PM
I think we have to have the Nordyke decision - and remember that while SCOTUS is done with it, even McDonald is not done (it was remanded and the lower court has not disposed of it as of yet). So we may have to have the lower Court decide McDonald as directed by SCOTUS and then Nordyke be decided. Then Pena goes back to motions and arguments. I'd guess that we've got 6-9 months or more - but IANAL so I could be way off.

Sinixstar
07-09-2010, 1:38 PM
I am stunned at the hubris of the State to decide that that a magazine disconnect, that most agencies and officers reject as unsafe for defensive use, is somehow a reasonable feature to foist upon the gun-owning citizens.

I don't - not at all.

Under CA's interpretation of the law features that made guns "unsafe for defensive use" were not only reasonable - but arguably the goal since defensive purposes are not considered relevant to the state's interest...

tonelar
07-09-2010, 1:56 PM
thanks for the links guys / i remain hopeful - gotta put more $$$ into CGF as soon as I can afford to

RRangel
07-09-2010, 3:39 PM
This is California. I have not seen one single gun regulation ultimately defeated in my entire residence here. If it does not make it one year, it makes it the next. I have wasted countless hours making phone calls, letters, and faxes only to have bill after bill pass. I'm done wasting my time, it's pointless. That roster is here to stay. Best to abandon ship at this point.

Ever heard of Dick Heller or Otis McDonald? A better question is do you live in a cave with no contact from the outside world?

383green
07-09-2010, 3:42 PM
Ever heard of Dick Heller or Otis McDonald? A better question is do you live in a cave with no contact from the outside world?


More locally, Harrott comes to mind. The Nordykes, too.

curtisfong
07-09-2010, 4:21 PM
Best to abandon ship at this point.


Bye.

Malthusian
07-09-2010, 4:43 PM
There to too many loopholes and time and time again I see an off roster custom made, or collectible etc posted for sale. Profiteers who have a friend who is an LEO, a parent out of State or friend in the Military. They buy for a quick sale and us collectors are extorted for our money. The perpetrators are legally free to walk away, money in hand

I read a post of Mr. Wiese dated 2005. The jest of which the roster would soon be struck down.

Five years later. The roster is stronger then ever

I'm speechless

sd_shooter
07-09-2010, 4:59 PM
This is California. I have not seen one single gun regulation ultimately defeated in my entire residence here. If it does not make it one year, it makes it the next. I have wasted countless hours making phone calls, letters, and faxes only to have bill after bill pass. I'm done wasting my time, it's pointless. That roster is here to stay. Best to abandon ship at this point.

After seeing AB962 get shoved down our throats, I'm somewhat on the "glass is half empty" side as well. Everyone is so busy celebrating the McDonald victory they forget there are multiple new restrictions on the way.

Now, I'm not ready to abandon ship yet but I'm definitely worn out.

RomanDad
07-09-2010, 5:40 PM
The roster is seriously becoming a pain in my ***.

Malthusian
07-09-2010, 5:44 PM
While there are some "loopholes" as it were, OLL's, mag repair kits to fix your legally owned mags, PPT being exempt from the roster, ect, the meat of the laws still remain. You could still be arrested with your OLL. More is coming down the pipe as we speak. Long gun registration, going to pass. I can call and fax till my phone line spontaneously combusts, and it's still going to pass. Heller and McDonald, great leaps forward, but I see no change in any California gun laws as of yet. When I see one gun regulation actually overturned, then I may feel inclined to fire up the phone, fax, and pen again, but till then, forget it. These legislators have nothing to fear. We can't vote them out. They have absolutely no motivation to do anything but ignore us, and do everything in their power to make it as difficult as possible to do anything hunting or shooting related.

PRK seceded from the US a long time ago. I do not see the latest SCOTUS decision changing anything in the PRK one iota, not one.

OleCuss
07-09-2010, 5:51 PM
I'm not so sure that long gun registration is going to pass. I think the odds favor that happening but the fact that it is taking as long as it has would tend to suggest that it is in some trouble.

The other thing to remember is that Ahnold is not a total idiot. It is actually quite possible he would veto long gun registration - but I wouldn't bet much on that.

Seriously, though? Long gun registration is coming up at a very bad time for the Democrats. It really won't be very popular and their odds of getting re-elected are better if they don't pass such legislation. I rather expect the legislation to get put off until after the November election and then they'll try to push it forward. If it should pass then depending on the timing you might actually get Jerry Brown vetoing it (I really think Whitman would sign it).

Somewhat speculative. . .

hoffmang
07-09-2010, 7:51 PM
Nordyke is not done. It sits en-banc waiting for a new opinion now that McDonald is done. As soon as we get that opinion in Nordyke, we'll be moving Peña forward.

We may not win all stages of Peña, but we'll win that war. That one is one of the easiest cases we'll ever bring.

-Gene

M. D. Van Norman
07-09-2010, 8:53 PM
Everyone is so busy celebrating the McDonald victory they forget there are multiple new restrictions on the way.

But after McDonald, why won’t we be able to get injunctions against future unconstitutional legislation? This is what the ACLU and other civil-rights groups have done successfully for decades. Remember Prop. 187?

hoffmang
07-09-2010, 9:00 PM
But after McDonald, why won't we be able to get injunctions against unconstitutional legislation? This is what the ACLU and other civil-rights groups have done successfully for decades. Remember Prop. 187?

Correct. We can't get preliminary injunctions against novel laws like the Roster the first time, hence Peña will be ruled on a Motion for Summary Judgment. However, if the state re-enacts a very similar law after we win Peña, then we can file a preliminary injunction that takes weeks instead of months to be dispositive.

-Gene

Librarian
07-09-2010, 10:53 PM
But till then, I have better things to do with my time.

To a large extent, you're right.

In California, gun owners, as voters, are out-numbered by those who do not care about the issue or who are anti-gun. Our politicians are primarily elected by that larger group. Our ability to influence those politicians in voting for/against bills with phone calls and other communications is pretty limited.

So, the traditional, good-citizen kinds of involvement are pretty much foreclosed; you do have better things to do with your time.

What might be those better things you could be doing?

Take a neighbor shooting. Nothing does more individual good than showing that gun owners are 'regular people', and countering the persistent waves of mis-information about guns with a direct, safe, fun experience. There's a way to change a few of the 'do not care' voters to our side.

Stay informed. Calguns is a pretty good source of information; if we don't always have good news, we do well at squashing the negative rumors.

Send money to CGF; since the voter/politician route is clogged, changing approaches seems better - and CGF is starting to work through the Federal courts, to change laws where our politicians won't.

But don't write it all off.

Malthusian
07-10-2010, 5:55 AM
To a large extent, you're right.Take a neighbor shooting. Nothing does more individual good than showing that gun owners are 'regular people', and countering the persistent waves of mis-information about guns with a direct, safe, fun experience. There's a way to change a few of the 'do not care' voters to our side.

+1
Education. Its the best we can do. I contribute, I vote.