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Jonathan Doe
06-19-2010, 6:15 AM
Recently, I had been working on cases involving SKS rifles. Some SKS rifles were sent to my office for an assault weapon determination. I do not know and care how and what circumstances the rifle was taken. I am sure there were reasons for it.

The rifles were in different configuration. Some had pistol grip and folding stock, some had 30 round detachable magazines which make them assault weapons. Some had original stock with fixed "10" round magazine. The problem was that the "10" round fixed magazine took 11 rounds. The rifle functioned well with 11 rounds in the magazine.

The letter of the law in strict sense, it is an assault weapon because it takes more than 10 rounds. I wrote the report and described it is not an assault weapon, because there was no visible intent or modification to make it to hold 11 rounds. It may be just worn out parts or other issues that cause the magazine to hold 11 rounds.

That was just ME looking at the cases. It may not the same case if someone else working at other agencies. Those of you who have SKS rifles should double check your rifles and make sure your rifle hold only 10 rounds.

On the same note, I saw many OLL AR rifles with regunlar magazine releases. I also saw several Mac-10 type firearms with folded receivers in assault rifle configuration. If you have those firearms, watch out, because you will never know when you are coming in contact with an LEO out there.

Cobrafreak
06-19-2010, 6:18 AM
10 rounds, check.

GM4spd
06-19-2010, 6:22 AM
I would think it applies to a LOT of rifles that have homemade "10" round mags
especially when they are fitted into 20/30 rd mag bodies. Pete

railroader
06-19-2010, 6:36 AM
The problem was that the "10" round fixed magazine took 11 rounds.

That seems to be an issue with many sks rifles. I have personally owned a few that were that way. Mark

PhantomII
06-19-2010, 6:43 AM
Mine will not take an 11th round even part way into the magazine and the 10th round is a tight fit.

P.S. topgun7, I took my new girl out last weekend. What a sweetheart she is. Thanks for introducing us.

Mail Clerk
06-19-2010, 7:21 AM
Recently, I had been working on cases involving SKS rifles. Some SKS rifles were sent to my office for an assault weapon determination. I do not know and care how and what circumstances the rifle was taken. I am sure there were reasons for it.

The rifles were in different configuration. Some had pistol grip and folding stock, some had 30 round detachable magazines which make them assault weapons. Some had original stock with fixed "10" round magazine. The problem was that the "10" round fixed magazine took 11 rounds. The rifle functioned well with 11 rounds in the magazine.

The letter of the law in strict sense, it is an assault weapon because it takes more than 10 rounds. I wrote the report and described it is not an assault weapon, because there was no visible intent or modification to make it to hold 11 rounds. It may be just worn out parts or other issues that cause the magazine to hold 11 rounds.

That was just ME looking at the cases. It may not the same case if someone else working at other agencies. Those of you who have SKS rifles should double check your rifles and make sure your rifle hold only 10 rounds.

On the same note, I saw many OLL AR rifles with regunlar magazine releases. I also saw several Mac-10 type firearms with folded receivers in assault rifle configuration. If you have those firearms, watch out, because you will never know when you are coming in contact with an LEO out there.

topgun7,

It looks like your talking about cases were these SKS's were involved with gangs. The average shooter won't even try to make it an assault rifle because it won't take ammo beyond it's magazine capacity. Just because it takes 1 round more shouldn't make any reason to calssify it as an assault rifle.
OK I'm talking about politics and it doesn't belong in this section. I hope your not hinting about another assault rifle law coming down the pipe!

Mail Clerk

Rob454
06-19-2010, 7:52 AM
I believe there is a memo from the DOJ about the 11th round on a SKS. SKS with detachable magazine = assault rifle. In my SKS I can almost fit a 11th round. If I hold down on the 11th and release the bolt it will take it. otherwise in a regular stripper clip load no i can't load the 11th round.

IMO if someone builds a OLL rifle and they are in violation of the laws that's their problem for being stupid. Most likely its a simple case of who cares Ill never get caught. The information is out there. If you choose to ignore it that's your fault and if a cop finds it then they have every right to take you to jail. But there are configurations that allow for detachable mag so make sure we are talking about pistol grip type of builds not monster man type of builds.

ddimick
06-19-2010, 7:53 AM
topgun7,

It looks like your talking about cases were these SKS's were involved with gangs. The average shooter won't even try to make it an assault rifle because it won't take ammo beyond it's magazine capacity. Just because it takes 1 round more shouldn't make any reason to calssify it as an assault rifle.
OK I'm talking about politics and it doesn't belong in this section. I hope your not hinting about another assault rifle law coming down the pipe!

Mail Clerk

I think you should read the post in it's entirety again. There are a few key points:

1) He doesn't know or care where these guns came from (emphasis mine). This is important. If a LEO takes your rifle and asks for an expert opinion on whether it's an AW, whether you are a gangbanger or not isn't part of the decision process.

2) Despite the 11th round his opinion was that it was not an AW because there was no intent to modify it into an AW. But there are other people besides him tasked with identifying AWs and they may or may not feel the same way.

Thanks for these posts, topgun7.

CSACANNONEER
06-19-2010, 8:12 AM
Thanks for the reminder.

I am curious if any of the OEM 10 round mags which you have found to accept 11 rounds will work with 1 in the chamber and 11 in the magazine. Or, do they only accept the 11th round while the bolt is open? My thoughts (and I in no way profess to being an "expert" here) are that the magazine is only capable of holding the number of rounds it can hold when the bolt is closed.

On the Macs, when you say "with folded receivers" are you refering to homebuilt receivers or just folded instead of welded receivers.

NoahH
06-19-2010, 8:48 AM
I REALLY hope McDonald helps us get rid of some of these laws so some guys life isn't ruined because his 50 year old SKS holds 11 rounds instead of 10.

AK4me
06-19-2010, 9:08 AM
I have an sks that Ive had for over a year now, never fired by me and I just checked it......if it held 11rds what should I do with it

Hoologan
06-19-2010, 9:09 AM
^+1 What's the best way to modify these to accept only 10?

Jonathan Doe
06-19-2010, 9:25 AM
Thanks for the reminder.

I am curious if any of the OEM 10 round mags which you have found to accept 11 rounds will work with 1 in the chamber and 11 in the magazine. Or, do they only accept the 11th round while the bolt is open? My thoughts (and I in no way profess to being an "expert" here) are that the magazine is only capable of holding the number of rounds it can hold when the bolt is closed.

The one I examined yesterday took 1 in the chamber and 11 in magazine. And, it closed the bolt without any problem.

On the Macs, when you say "with folded receivers" are you refering to homebuilt receivers or just folded instead of welded receivers.

The receiver had a "Cobray" logo with no other markings/ serial number. Apparently, it was folded and welded to the magazine housing.


My response in bold.

CSACANNONEER
06-19-2010, 9:54 AM
My response in bold.

Thanks! I haven't seen a SKS that would hold 11 +1 before. This is very good info for everyone to check there OEM mags and, if there is a possible problem, get them fixed.

The Mac thing sounds interesting. I don't know enough about them to know if Cobray ever offered "flats" or, how it got out without a SN.

Jonathan Doe
06-19-2010, 11:00 AM
I think you should read the post in it's entirety again. There are a few key points:

1) He doesn't know or care where these guns came from (emphasis mine). This is important. If a LEO takes your rifle and asks for an expert opinion on whether it's an AW, whether you are a gangbanger or not isn't part of the decision process.

2) Despite the 11th round his opinion was that it was not an AW because there was no intent to modify it into an AW. But there are other people besides him tasked with identifying AWs and they may or may not feel the same way.

Thanks for these posts, topgun7.

ddimick,

You said exactly how I would answer. I try not to hear the circumstances of the confiscation of the firearms from the detectives, so I can have an unbiased opinion.

SJgunguy24
06-19-2010, 11:08 AM
Most cops don't care where the gun came from and who they took it from here in California, it's illegal your going down. Technicallity or not.

Topgun 7 cares about us and doesn't want to see any of us get popped.

Anytime he, or Ron Solo, Unit74, or any of the long time LEO calgunners give advice, follow it.

Jonathan Doe
06-19-2010, 12:05 PM
We all enjoy shooting sports. I hope it stays the same. Unfortunately, the law does not recognize the ignorance as an excuse. We, as sportsmen, should do our best to keep the shooting sports stay alive. Go out there and vote. With 50,000 + members, I think we can influence politics a little bit, at least.

Until then, law is the law, and we will have to follow whether we like it or not.

Mac
06-19-2010, 12:10 PM
11th round? something does not smell right? Just how hard are they trying to force the 11th round in on a 50 year old fixed mag spring? Just wondering is there even enough room in the fixed mag with 10 rounds and the spring fully depressed.

smle-man
06-19-2010, 1:06 PM
It doesn't matter how hard you have to shove the 11th round in, if it goes there is a problem. I imagine the firearm doesn't even have to function with 11 rounds in the magazine; if they fit that is all a strict interpetation of the law requires.

Mac
06-19-2010, 1:36 PM
Yeah SMLE I know. ALL the SKS's I have ever owned would only take 10. Just can not see how there would be enough space for 11. But using my google-fu apparently it happens on some rare occasion. Which is weird because the spring is pretty well bottomed out holding 10. there must be some wide tolerances between manufacturers/countries on the same specs.

Jonathan Doe
06-19-2010, 2:33 PM
My Russian SKS held only 10, but the SKS I examined for the case was from China, (marked CGA SKS). Took 11 in the mag and one in the chamber.

smle-man
06-19-2010, 6:11 PM
Yeah SMLE I know. ALL the SKS's I have ever owned would only take 10. Just can not see how there would be enough space for 11. But using my google-fu apparently it happens on some rare occasion. Which is weird because the spring is pretty well bottomed out holding 10. there must be some wide tolerances between manufacturers/countries on the same specs.

Yes indeed there are. From a military user standpoint having a magazine that can theoretically take 11 rounds means that loading the standard 10 rounds is much easier due to having less spring pressure as the rounds compress the spring as they are stripped from the clip into the magazine.

SVT-40
06-19-2010, 9:34 PM
Obviously SKS rifles were intended to have a only ten round capability. There is really no "spring" per say in the magazine well. The mag is limited in capacity by how far the follower is allowed to be depressed into the magazine by the arm which the follower is attached to and the spring acts upon. If the arm is bent or flexed due to heavy use or modification it may allow the mag to hold an extra (eleventh) round.

A remedy would be to bend the arm back up or weld a small piece of metal to the bottom of the follower to prevent it from being depresses enough to hold the extra round.

telcolineman
06-19-2010, 9:37 PM
Thanks for the heads up, I will tell my buddies to check their SKS's

virulosity
06-19-2010, 9:41 PM
Anyone with a hammer can make more than 10 rounds fit in almost any gun. Anyone with a hammer can make a fixed magazine "unfixed". A hammer is probably used as a weapon more often than an SKS. Despite this, whether or not the interpretation of the law is reasonable or not depends on each case and the prosecuting attorney (i think). Use your best judgement.

Mac
06-20-2010, 3:35 PM
Obviously SKS rifles were intended to have a only ten round capability. There is really no "spring" per say in the magazine well. The mag is limited in capacity by how far the follower is allowed to be depressed into the magazine by the arm which the follower is attached to and the spring acts upon. If the arm is bent or flexed due to heavy use or modification it may allow the mag to hold an extra (eleventh) round.

A remedy would be to bend the arm back up or weld a small piece of metal to the bottom of the follower to prevent it from being depresses enough to hold the extra round.

yeah follower, my bad. So looking at mine it has the bend

in the follower - right. Yugo M59. I can not see this bend being flexed straight to the point of taking 11 from use by stripper clip loading. Unless it was Futzed with or very very worn/weakened. think I will mod mine ot hold only 8. this is getting ridiculous.

tuolumnejim
06-20-2010, 4:01 PM
Thanks! I haven't seen a SKS that would hold 11 +1 before. This is very good info for everyone to check there OEM mags and, if there is a possible problem, get them fixed.

The Mac thing sounds interesting. I don't know enough about them to know if Cobray ever offered "flats" or, how it got out without a SN.

Oh yes, there's stacks of them out there, even some on GB. Flats link (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx)

Roscoe
06-20-2010, 4:08 PM
I have a 1951 Russian (unmodified) that only takes 10 rds.... does anyone know if there are specific models that seem to ahve the 11th round issue?

Jonathan Doe
06-20-2010, 4:43 PM
I have a 1951 Russian (unmodified) that only takes 10 rds.... does anyone know if there are specific models that seem to ahve the 11th round issue?

I think Chinese one are more prone to the extra round, from my experience.

bohoki
06-20-2010, 7:15 PM
ive not seen an sks with a 10 rounder that i cannot make hold 11 or even 12

just undoo the latch and hold the bottom with your hand and it can feed more

i call it the hillbilly hicap

Mac
06-20-2010, 7:57 PM
The Norinco military SKS rifles I have had in the past take 10 - period. Unless you used a block of wood and a hammer to drive an 11th in. Drill press maybe.

topgun7 refers to the Chinese model as CGA marked.

There seems to be some mystery as to the origins of these CGA marked rifles. Being that they are not from a govt. arsenal.

that said this bodes ill for A LOT of SKS owners that might have a run in with some unscrupulous
official that wants to FORCE an 11th round to pin an AW rap.

If it thumbs in (what I am assuming) then that is another issue.
There must be some clarification from DOJ on this?? Anyone?

Jonathan Doe
06-23-2010, 8:01 PM
Many SKS rifles I examined took 11th round with little effort, and functioned fine. That is the issue.