PDA

View Full Version : Is a "special weapons permit" holder exempt from the roster?


CHS
06-18-2010, 2:30 PM
I've got a customer who holds a special weapons permit (I.E., he gets machineguns and suppressors, etc).

Is a special weapons permit holder exempt from the safe handgun roster?

IGOTDIRT4U
06-18-2010, 2:43 PM
bdsmchs, if you don't get a clear answer here post the question on CalCCW.com. I know someone there that has the answer.

ke6guj
06-18-2010, 2:51 PM
I don't see an exemption in the PC for them regarding the roster.

I did see that they are exempt from the 10-day wait for all firearms though.

Quiet
06-18-2010, 3:44 PM
Does not appear to be exempt.


Penal Code 12125
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of any prototype pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12130 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is prohibited by this chapter, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm to the roster of pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 12131.
(2) The importation or lending of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by employees or authorized agents determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section.
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) The sale or purchase of any pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, if the pistol, revolver, or other firearm is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(c) Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to each handgun and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and other provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision, but the penalty to be imposed shall be determined as set forth in Section 654.

djleisure
06-18-2010, 3:44 PM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone in CA could legally own machine guns, but NOT, say, the FDE or two-tone version of an otherwise rostered handgun. Good stuff right there...

creekside
06-18-2010, 4:18 PM
>> Is a special weapons permit holder exempt from the safe handgun roster?

Is there an exemption either in the special weapons permit law itself or the safe handgun roster law which applies to a special weapons permit holder?

After a careful read I do see what I think is an applicable exception. PC 12125 specifies the penalty for firearms transfers not on the roster and lists the exceptions. Further exceptions including the private party exception are in PC 12132.

12132. This chapter [DA ROSTER] shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. [private party transfer]
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072. [huh? say what?]

Going forth to PC 12072 (d):

(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Translating to English I believe this makes 12132 read as follows:

[A firearms transfer through a dealer which is in any way exempted anywhere in PC 12078, is also exempt from the roster.]

Reading 12078 in great detail, we find 12078 (r):

(r) The waiting period described in Section 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of a firearm to the holder of a special weapons permit issued by the Department of Justice issued pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, or 12305. On the date that the application to purchase is completed, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the same as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077.

I am not an attorney. However it appears to me that a handgun purchase under 12078(r) by a special weapons permit holder could be argued to exempt them from the roster.

12078. (a) (1) The waiting periods described in Sections 12071 and 12072 shall not apply to the deliveries, transfers, or sales of firearms made to persons properly identified as full-time paid peace officers as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, provided that the peace officers are authorized by their employer to carry firearms while in the performance of their duties. Proper identification is defined as verifiable written certification from the head of the agency ...

If 12078(a) exempts peace officers from the roster, so does 12078(r) exempt special weapons permit holders from the roster. Just my arrogant opinion, completely uninformed by anything other than an amateur reading of the text.

hoffmang
06-18-2010, 8:11 PM
I see no roster exemption for Machine Gun/AW permit holders to the roster of handguns.

-Gene

CHS
06-18-2010, 11:11 PM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone in CA could legally own machine guns, but NOT, say, the FDE or two-tone version of an otherwise rostered handgun. Good stuff right there...

Yeah, I'm not surprised in the least by this either.

"Welcome to California, here's your machine gun. Oh that?.... That's an ambidextrous Glock, you can't have one."

CSDGuy
06-18-2010, 11:30 PM
A special weapons permit holder isn't exempt from the roster, but they're possibly exempt from the "30 day" handgun purchase rule, but likely not exempt from the 10 day wait, just like C&R + COE people. IIRC, the permit serves as an exemption to the HSC though.

ke6guj
06-19-2010, 12:01 AM
A special weapons permit holder isn't exempt from the roster,correct, no exemption found.

but they're possibly exempt from the "30 day" handgun purchase rule,yup.

12072(a)(9)(A) No person shall make an application to purchase more than one pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person within any 30-day period.
(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to any of the following:
(vii) Any person who may, pursuant to Section 12078, claim an exemption from the waiting period set forth in subdivision (c) of this section.

since they have a 12078(r) exemption to the waiting period, the 30-day rule doesn't apply either.




but likely not exempt from the 10 day wait, just like C&R + COE people.they are exempt from the 10-day wait.

12078(r) The waiting period described in Section 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of a firearm to the holder of a special weapons permit issued by the Department of Justice issued pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, or 12305. On the date that the application to purchase is completed, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the same as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077.

and it appears that special and dangerous are synomomous in this case.

12077. (a) The Department of Justice shall prescribe the form of the register and the record of electronic transfer pursuant to Section 12074.
(b)(1) For handguns, information contained in the register or record of electronic transfer shall be the date and time of sale, make of firearm, peace officer exemption status pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 and the agency name, dealer waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (n) of Section 12078, dangerous weapons permit holder waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (r) of Section 12078,





IIRC, the permit serves as an exemption to the HSC though.
correct.

]12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:
(12) Persons who are the holders of a special weapons permit issued by the department pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, or 12305.

And if they are exempt from the HSC, they are also exempt from the safe handling demo as well.

12071(b)(8)(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.

CalNRA
06-19-2010, 12:11 AM
Yeah, I'm not surprised in the least by this either.

"Welcome to California, here's your machine gun. Oh that?.... That's an ambidextrous Glock, you can't have one."

:rofl:

I can just see it now.

"Want to trade: MG for 4th gen Glock."

leelaw
06-19-2010, 12:56 AM
No, they are not exempt from the roster, but they can walk out the door with it.

creekside
06-19-2010, 8:41 AM
Since several experienced people have said the opposite of what I've said, and I trust their judgment more than my own on these matters, could I ask for someone to explain what 12132 (b) means, since I appear to have misunderstood it?

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Thanks.

FatalKitty
06-19-2010, 8:53 AM
Since several experienced people have said the opposite of what I've said, and I trust their judgment more than my own on these matters, could I ask for someone to explain what 12132 (b) means, since I appear to have misunderstood it?

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Thanks.

your logic is that because they are exempt from the 10 day wait they are also exempt from all other restrictions?

there is sufficient code regarding exemption from the roster for other folks (LEO), if special weapons permit holders were also exempt, they would be listed there

creekside
06-19-2010, 9:18 AM
your logic is that because they are exempt from the 10 day wait they are also exempt from all other restrictions?

there is sufficient code regarding exemption from the roster for other folks (LEO), if special weapons permit holders were also exempt, they would be listed there

I am talking just about the roster. The LEO exception is 12125(b)(4) which only applies to sworn members of the agencies listed in that code.

Now I am honestly puzzled as to what 12132(b) means . . . what I think I'm not understanding is the term "any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078."

Since it doesn't mean what I thought it meant, what <b>does</b> it mean? Does this mean off-roster trades between dealers? Or some other purpose?

I can imagine situations in which a special weapons permit holder might have a legitimate need for a number of off-roster handguns, i.e. a Federal contract.

ke6guj
06-19-2010, 3:17 PM
let me see if I can translate this:

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 [requirement that a dealer be used to do a PPT] pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.ok, that is saying that the roster does not apply to a transfer that doesn't have to be PPT due to an 12078 exemption that states that that transfer doesn't have to be PPT'ed, but that can be FTF'ed instead.

Exemptions include transfers between husband/wife, intrafamily transfers, infrequent loans to friends, operation of law transfers,



This was a wierd exemption to the PPT requirement I found,

12078(g)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale or transfer of a firearm, other than a handgun, at auctions or similar events conducted by nonprofit mutual or public benefit corporations organized pursuant to the Corporations Code. As used in this paragraph, the term "infrequent" shall not be construed to prohibit different local chapters of the same nonprofit corporation from conducting auctions or similar events, provided the individual local chapter conducts the auctions or similar events infrequently. It is the intent of the Legislature that different local chapters, representing different localities, be entitled to invoke the exemption created by this paragraph, notwithstanding the frequency with which other chapters of the same nonprofit corporation may conduct auctions or similar events.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the transfer of a firearm other than a handgun, if the firearm is donated for an auction or similar event described in paragraph (1) and the firearm is delivered to the nonprofit corporation immediately preceding, or contemporaneous with, the auction or similar event.
(3) The waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072 shall not apply to a dealer who delivers a firearm other than a handgun, at an auction or similar event described in paragraph (1), as authorized by subparagraph (C) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12071. Within two business days of completion of the application to purchase, the dealer shall forward by prepaid mail to the Department of Justice a report of the same as is indicated in subdivision (c) of Section 12077. If the electronic or telephonic transfer of applicant information is used, within two business days of completion of the application to purchase, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the same as is indicated in subdivision (c) of Section 12077. what exactly is a "nonprofit mutual or public benefit corporations organized pursuant to the Corporations Code". Anybody have any examples of one? Looks like someone who falls under that can just FTF long guns to the buyer/recipient and if a dealer is involved, can just hand over the long gun to the buyer/recipient and then just has to file the DROS within 2 days. Interesting.

edit:
reading this, http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/corp/pdf/articles/corp_artsnp.pdf ,

A corporation organized primarily or exclusively for charitable purposes and which plans to obtain state tax
exempt status under California Revenue and Taxation Code section 23701(d) and/or federal tax exempt
status under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3) or organized to act as a civic league or a social
welfare organization and which plans to obtain state tax exempt status under California Revenue and
Taxation Code section 23701(f) and/or federal tax exempt status under Internal Revenue Code section
501(c)(4) is a nonprofit Public Benefit corporation.

would this mean that long gun transfers that happen at an auction like at a "Friends of the NRA" event be exempt from PPT requirement? Not sure if the Friends of the NRA are a 501(c)3, but the NRA foundation they work under is.

edit2: yes, it appears that the FNRA is a 501(c)3, so it appear that that PPT exemption might apply, and that any long guns held on the books of an FFL that are being auctioned off or sold are also exempt from the need to be 10-day waited after the auction. The buyer should be able to take the long gun home after giving his info to the FFL so that the FFL can file the DROS.