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View Full Version : Scope Dilemma (for Saiga 7.62X39mm)


omgwtfbbq
06-17-2010, 11:18 PM
So I've been shopping for a scope lately for my Saiga lately with hopes of doing some larger range shooting and possibly taking it out for deer or pig later this year. The problem I have run into is that I've found two scopes at reasonably the same price, but differing in quality, and features.

The first of the two is a Bushnell Banner 4-12x40mm Adjustable Objective scope:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=473558

The second is a Simmons Whitetail Classic 6.5-20X50mm Adjustable Objective scope:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=746570

The real issue comes down to the question: Is there such a thing as "too much scope" for your gun? I mean the Simmons is probably going to be a great deal better in terms of quality and it's a stellar deal at 110 bucks, but with the limitations of the gun being as the are, is really going to be put to good use? I've tried to rationalize it and say that then if I get a .308 (which I'm working on) I can use the Simmons for it too....

I guess my question is whether or not the deal on the Simmons is too good to pass up, even though I may not need all that magnification and size?

69Mach1
06-17-2010, 11:21 PM
The scope rail you're going to use puts any scope a bit high on the Saigas. Adding a 50mm obj. is going to make it worse. A good 3-9x 40mm will work fine.

SJgunguy24
06-17-2010, 11:28 PM
Too much scope IMO. DDeer and Hogs are gonna be what, 200-250 yard tops? I'll say your average shots will be inside of 150 yards, depends on your method of hunting.
IMO anything more then a 4X on an AK is a waste. It's lighter, you'll pick up the target faster, quicker follow up shot, and if you couple that with a red dot, that makes for a nice point shooting type of gun for suprises, like a pissed off sow defending her pups.

omgwtfbbq
06-17-2010, 11:35 PM
Yeah I had kinda figured these would be the answers. I believe I have been blinded by megalomania on this one.

I guess I'll ask a follow up, I've heard mixed reviews in regards to Bushnell's Banner 3-9X40mm scopes. I heard some of them have issues with the reticles canting, and would they be suitable for use on a Saiga?

SJgunguy24
06-17-2010, 11:46 PM
Yeah I had kinda figured these would be the answers. I believe I have been blinded by megalomania on this one.

I guess I'll ask a follow up, I've heard mixed reviews in regards to Bushnell's Banner 3-9X40mm scopes. I heard some of them have issues with the reticles canting, and would they be suitable for use on a Saiga?

Figure out your mounting options first. Then work out the optics.

omgwtfbbq
06-18-2010, 9:47 AM
I already bought a UTG throw-lever scope mount that secures to the pedestal mount on the side of the receiver. The decision of where to mount it has already been made.

I also have a quad rail RAS, where I currently mount my red dot, in a scout configuration, but I don't like this configuration for magnified optics.

supermario
06-18-2010, 1:58 PM
Burris makes sum really good low power quality scopes at good prices! Also if ur gonna use a scope, I would get a better quality low profile ak side mount and not one with a throw lever! I would even use some blue loctite on the mount to make sure it don't come loose!

gun toting monkeyboy
06-18-2010, 3:02 PM
I have one of the side mounts on my saiga. And I had to add a cheek pad to be able to use any scope on it with a decent cheek weld. You may want to look ad adding one of those. As for the scope, look at any of the fixed or variable scopes out there in the $40-100 range. You aren't going to get sniper-like accuracy. Don't go overboard. I have had pretty good success with Tascos, Bushnell, and especially Simmons. Also look online at places like Midway and Brownells. And look at Cabela's for some of their store brand scopes. Yes, most of these are made in China. But most also have warranties of several years to the entire life of the scope. If you have problems, you send it back to them and usually just get another scope.

-Mb

FiveSeven
06-18-2010, 3:24 PM
If you are using factory stock then you need to get mount as low as possible then using the super low scope rings, also using scope with small front objective so it can sit pretty close to the mount.
..... Basically, you need to get the scope close to the rear sight height, the lower the better otherwise you will need to raise your head to look trough the scope and have no cheek rest.

This is the rail I use, it's probably the most expensive out there but also the lowest possible.... Kalinka optics has them with rings or without. If I had to buy again I'd get without rings. They're to high for the scope I want to use.
Currently I'm trying to mount the scope lower then what you see here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Guns/ab28.jpg

MrPlink
06-18-2010, 3:35 PM
FiveSeven,
How low is that mount exactly? How much room is there between the bottom of the mount and the top of the receiver cover?

FiveSeven
06-18-2010, 3:47 PM
It's very low, there's a slight curve on the opposite side so it almost looks as it overlaps the dust cover. I believe there's a quarter of an inch between the mount and dust cover.

Here's another pic.
With this mount, you can see the iron sight by looking through the middle of the scope rail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Guns/ab16.jpg

MrPlink
06-18-2010, 3:56 PM
Thanks for the pic FiveSeven. The side mount I have is the same height. I'm not sure of the make, it has a throw lever, and an extra side rail.

FiveSeven
06-18-2010, 4:38 PM
It's UTG, for the price I think it can't be beat. Excellent mount.

Here's the pic of the two mounts side by side.
Molot mount does offer limited use of irons and is made of different metal (some sort of alloy). In height they pretty close. UTG sits just a fraction higher.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Guns/Image7i99.jpg

MrPlink
06-18-2010, 7:57 PM
Thanks for the pix! I like how on the side it sits closer to the receiver.
And sorry if I'm thread jacking!

CSACANNONEER
06-18-2010, 8:05 PM
For 200 yards, why would you want a scope for deer or pig? Learn to use your iron sights and you will be a far better hunter than the ones who think that optic make a difference that close. Now, it you were varmit hunting, I'd tell you to get a different rifle with optics. But, you are shooting at rather large targets at a relatively close range so, there is no reason to use optics. I've taken a few dozen deer and only had two which were shot at over 100 yards. The first was shot with a muzzleloader and the second was shot with a .22lr. Both were one shot, instant kills between 125 and 150 yards. EVERY time I've taken a deer with a centerfire rifle, it's been at 75 yards or less. Learn to hunt instead of just taking longshots.

bigbob76
06-18-2010, 8:09 PM
Too much scope IMO.
IMO anything more then a 4X on an AK is a waste. It's lighter, you'll pick up the target faster, quicker follow up shot, and if you couple that with a red dot, that makes for a nice point shooting type of gun for suprises, like a pissed off sow defending her pups.

Personally, I consider an AK/Saiga a 100 yard rifle. I won't be surprised if I get different opinions on this but that's what I think.

FiveSeven
06-18-2010, 8:26 PM
Personally, I consider an AK/Saiga a 100 yard rifle. I won't be surprised if I get different opinions on this but that's what I think.

You're right you shouldn't be surprised.
Two things come to mind when I read your post. You don't own one OR you can't shoot good. AK was intended to hit a man size target at 300 meters and does so with irons sights.
Look at this guy shooting low grade AK @ 230 yards standing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMmhSWRu3Q&feature=channel

With a better AK/Saiga, good ammo and a scope it's an easy 200 + yard rifle.
I've shot at 100 yards (Saiga) and get 1.5" group. Not a target rifle but better than what some people think.

CSACANNONEER
06-18-2010, 8:51 PM
You're right you shouldn't be surprised.
Two things come to mind when I read your post. You don't own one OR you can't shoot good. AK was intended to hit a man size target at 300 meters and does so with irons sights.
Look at this guy shooting low grade AK @ 230 yards standing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMmhSWRu3Q&feature=channel

With a better AK/Saiga, good ammo and a scope it's an easy 200 + yard rifle.
I've shot at 100 yards (Saiga) and get 1.5" group. Not a target rifle but better than what some people think.

AFAIK, Bob does not own ONE Saiga. I have a feeling he may own several though.

Also, there is a big difference between hitting a man sized target at 300 yards and feeling comfortable hunting at 300 yards. If you can not hit a 10" plate EVERY TIME at a given distance, you should not consider hunting big game with that gun at that distance. Your post leads me to believe that you are either not a hunter or not an ethical hunter.

FiveSeven
06-18-2010, 9:44 PM
I was mainly talking accuracy wise and that is how his post came across.
Most people would not shoot at a deer at 300 yards even with a "1,000 yard" rifle.
That is not what I was talking about and yes I can hit 10" plate every time @ 200 yards with every shot. Done so without scope and with scope it feels like there's' no challenge to it whatsoever.

BTW, I hunt wild pig/hog only. Not a deer hunter. but even with pig I won't shoot one past 70 yards and that's not because I can't shoot further.

Rob454
06-18-2010, 9:54 PM
You dont need a scope for 200 yards. And I rarely shot a deer at 200 yards. My average deer shot has been less than 100 yards. Same with boar. i got a deer at 250 yards a few years back. But 95% of my shots have been less than 100 yards.
Should be able to do that easy with irons. i think most scopes look like crap on AKs. the low mount ones look ok but the high mount ones look like crap IMO
Depending on WHERE you go hunting at you may or may notbe in a california condor zone so make sure to know. You will NEED to have solid copper bullets and NO lead ammo. Thats if you are hunting ANY big game and even coyotes.
a 3x9x40 will get you the 200 yards you want easy and wont break the bank either.

bigbob76
06-18-2010, 10:16 PM
You're right you shouldn't be surprised.
Two things come to mind when I read your post. You don't own one OR you can't shoot good. AK was intended to hit a man size target at 300 meters and does so with irons sights.
Look at this guy shooting low grade AK @ 230 yards standing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMmhSWRu3Q&feature=channel

With a better AK/Saiga, good ammo and a scope it's an easy 200 + yard rifle.
I've shot at 100 yards (Saiga) and get 1.5" group. Not a target rifle but better than what some people think.

Hi Five Seven and welcome to calguns. Hopefully you have a lot of information to share with us here. Some courtesy and a little less aggressive approach may make your contribution even better.

FiveSeven
06-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Sorry about that, your right...........my apology and sorry for taking this a bit off topic.
Just heard that statement so many times it kind a got to me.

As to scope or not...... If you can attach a good scope with quick release then why not? If anything it make shooting accurately a little bit more comfortable. Yes iron sight should work fine but scopes are made for a reason.

SJgunguy24
06-19-2010, 1:33 AM
Personally, I consider an AK/Saiga a 100 yard rifle. I won't be surprised if I get different opinions on this but that's what I think.

I can get large pizza accuracy out to 500 yards and then some. The day before we had clays set at the bottom of the hill that I'm sitting on and they were laser ranged at 505IIRC. I'm up, back, and to the left, of where the clays were set up in this pic. That was using Svetlana (Highly modified Saiga 7.62, and not in a bad way modified) With HK sights and no optics.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/026-1.jpg








I've tried those side rails and I find they sit too high and tend to get caught on stuff as your making your way through brush. Also if you look really clost, the side rails don't sit in line with the bore. I like these rails, they sit low, mount solid, in line and snag free.
http://www.texasweaponsystems.com/id1.html

omgwtfbbq
06-19-2010, 11:06 AM
I've tried those side rails and I find they sit too high and tend to get caught on stuff as your making your way through brush. Also if you look really clost, the side rails don't sit in line with the bore. I like these rails, they sit low, mount solid, in line and snag free.
http://www.texasweaponsystems.com/id1.html


I like these style rails too, and I would love to buy one, *but* by the end of the year I will be doing a full conversion on my rifle including an ACE skeleton stock which requires the removal of the tang, as I'm sure you know. 130 bucks is a decent price, but not decent enough to throw out there and then end up not using it after six or so months. Unless you know of a way to still use one with an ACE. If you do that would be pretty neat. haha.

I suppose I should clarify how I got to where I am with wanting a scope. Yes I want to hunt with it, primarily pig and deer. Yes I'm aware that shots taken on these animals don't normally exceed 200yds especially in California. however The normal role of this weapon is a range rifle. I like the option of target shooting further than 200 yds. I can already shoot roughly a 14" sqaure target at 200yds with my red dot. I have also shot at 300yds with my red dot and can score about 50% on about the same size sized target. I know the rifle can shoot further than the nay sayers believe. I want my rifle to shoot farther than they believe. haha.

SJgunguy24
06-19-2010, 12:02 PM
Unless you know of a way to still use one with an ACE. If you do that would be pretty neat. haha.


1 question, did you plan to use a weld on plate or the bolt on receiver block? I can make that happen, I would need a couple of days to design it but I know for a fact I can do that.

bigbob76
06-19-2010, 6:01 PM
Just so you don't think I don't like AKs or Saigas because of my 100 yard opinion this is what I prefer for anything over 100 yards. And yes I think you could safely say I have a few AKs and Saigas.

I've been wanting to do something different for fun and had a bunch of extra parts so I just got started without a plan. I posted some pics a while back when I was moving the fire control group. If I did it all again I would do some things differently but I am getting a smile on my face as I look at this rifle. It was the long barreled Saiga .308 originally. I had this used U.S. made walnut furniture, pistol grip etc. I actually had the matching walnut grip and broke it by being impatient. I was trimming it to fit around some extra rivets in the reinforcement plate I added.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010003-37.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010002-38.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010004-34.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010005-29.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010006-29.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj29/bigbob76/P1010008-17.jpg

omgwtfbbq
06-19-2010, 11:10 PM
1 question, did you plan to use a weld on plate or the bolt on receiver block? I can make that happen, I would need a couple of days to design it but I know for a fact I can do that.

Well I'm no welder so I was leaning towards a bolt on reciever block. Something like the one below:

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-internal-stock-adapter-p-581.html?zenid=41c43ca89babda25af0539b86940b20f