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View Full Version : Handgun ammo, should I do it?????


1911Operator
06-17-2010, 7:43 PM
Hey guys, so im thinking of starting my own ammo company. its going to be small but I am planning on pumping out about 80k-100k rounds a month in the beginning. I will have my FFL 06 and be licensed and insured before I start. Im trying to get a location going in NOR-CAL for now, so probably be based up here in Redwood city or near San Francisco. I wanted to ask you (the consumers) what fair prices would be? At first I will only be doing 45ACP and I am thinking of pricing it around $14/$15 a box? I would only make a small profit but im not really in it to make the money. I just love shooting like everyone on this forum. I miss the days when it was only $12 a box of ammo and everyone could afford to shot. Now, the prices are so high and with the new FEB 2011 law coming, the prices will be going higher since the only place you can buy ammo is at a gun store or you will be forced to reload yourself. Many people my age (25yrs), and like me, live in apartments and do not have the option to start reloading. So, what do you guys think? If business picks up and funds allow me to, I would like to be making 40S&W and 9mm since they are the most commonly and popular used rounds. I have no idea what prices I would sell the 40S&W & 9mm at but I would sacrafice a lower profit just to see people having a good time and enjoying the sport.:D My goal is to beat any prices from the big companies!

wu_dot_com
06-17-2010, 8:14 PM
for one, 9mm operation is not going to be worth it. the margin of the 9mm is so low that it barely breaks even with cost. try 375, .44, 5.7mm, 50AE, 50 cal, etc. the margin will be much higher and you will actually make a small amount of profit to keep the business going. .45 will give you more margin over .40. i remember doing the calculation that comparing to avg cost of .45 from the show, a 2k investment (1 die, fully auto press, powder, primer, bullet, and misc) would take reloading 30K rounds match the pay back, and thats not counting the cost for brass.

hope this gives you an idea.

rips31
06-17-2010, 8:21 PM
you'd have to do it for the love and hope business picks up to break even. best bet would be a niche market, like elite ammo did, tho. but since you're local, i'd patronize you. :)

NotEnoughGuns
06-17-2010, 8:23 PM
I reload myself, 9mm FMJ is hardly worth reloading. If you want to start out you'd be better off reloading higher priced ammo. IMO you'd probably be better off working at wal-mart.

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 8:24 PM
making enough to keep me from going under is good enough. like I said, im not in it to make the money. just want enough to pay for the work area rent, and utilities. but im trying to see what you guys think about the prices. I already have my plans all writen out and ready to go.

sd joe
06-17-2010, 8:28 PM
Reloading is not only about cost, but for accuracy as well.

GM_77
06-17-2010, 8:28 PM
If it pays for itself and any ammo you end up using I'd say do it. I've always wished this hobby I have would pay for itself.

As far as prices go here is a good place to check out the cost (http://gun-deals.com/ammo) of ammunition from retail stores.

NotEnoughGuns
06-17-2010, 8:29 PM
making enough to keep me from going under is good enough. like I said, im not in it to make the money. just want enough to pay for the work area rent, and utilities. but im trying to see what you guys think about the prices. I already have my plans all writen out and ready to go.

Not really. But if you must go for it then do it. California is a horrible place to try to manufacture a product. Maybe move to a friendlier place and sell to us deprived commiefornians.

GSG222
06-17-2010, 8:32 PM
That would be a serious business decision. I have a friend who wanted to do the same thing years ago and eneded up giving me his loading device for free. There were way too many things related to the business that he was willing to tackle. I also hate the high ammo cost (that's part of the reason I reload my 45ACP), but I would think there are legitimate reasons behind it and the profit margin is not as high as one would think. Also, do you have a market to consume your products fast enough to sustain your cash flow? If you do, and if you do have the passion - go for it. I will buy:D

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 8:36 PM
Reloading is not only about cost, but for accuracy as well.

I just made my first 200 rounds the other day. accuracy was amazing. I was afraid at first so I shot one round at a time. my friend tried them too. the shot 3 rounds into a hole the size of a quarter! I was really impressed by it. I took the target out to 25 yards and here is what I came out with:

7 rounds were in a 6.25" grouping and 1 flyer. It was my first shot and I know it because it hit to the right.

I was shooting my full size SA 1911 and about 1.5 secs between shots. I was really happy with the ammo I made, its my first time and it came out better then I was hoping for :D

NotEnoughGuns
06-17-2010, 8:40 PM
I understand your enthusiasm but Kalifornia is probably the worst state to try to start a business let alone one related to shooting.

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 8:43 PM
That would be a serious business decision. I have a friend who wanted to do the same thing years ago and eneded up giving me his loading device for free. There were way too many things related to the business that he was willing to tackle. I also hate the high ammo cost (that's part of the reason I reload my 45ACP), but I would think there are legitimate reasons behind it and the profit margin is not as high as one would think. Also, do you have a market to consume your products fast enough to sustain your cash flow? If you do, and if you do have the passion - go for it. I will buy:D
yeah i know..... lots and lots of work until you start! getting my FFL 06 and being insured would allow me to sell on gun broker. I can also have a website too. I know I would go nuts if I saw 1k rounds of 45ACP for $300. prob buy a few thousand since its ammo, i would end up shooting it eventurally.

paul0660
06-17-2010, 8:44 PM
100k rounds at 15 per box is 30000 per month. Assuming you can sell all that, what is your gross profit (30000 less materials) and net profit (gross profit less all other overhead?)

sk8804
06-17-2010, 8:45 PM
For acp thats a good price. For .40, which I shoot, fmj would be good at $13-15 a box of 50. I buy federal fmj from wally world currently for that price. For hollows it could range from $20-30 a box of 50, since i currently use Fed. HST from wal-mart at $22 a box of 50 and Winchester Ranger T for around $30 a box of 50. Good luck.

NotEnoughGuns
06-17-2010, 8:46 PM
100k rounds at 15 per box is 30000 per month. Assuming you can sell all that, what is your gross profit (30000 less materials) and net profit (gross profit less all other overhead?)

probably -$10000

ElkHunterSL
06-17-2010, 8:47 PM
What type of equipment will you be using to be able to make 100K rounds per month? That's alot of loading.

NotEnoughGuns
06-17-2010, 8:47 PM
probably -$10000

ETA: Overhead at my small shop is over $30K/month

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 8:50 PM
100k rounds at 15 per box is 30000 per month. Assuming you can sell all that, what is your gross profit (30000 less materials) and net profit (gross profit less all other overhead?)
yes i have done the numbers. its a lot of money, but-

for every 1k rounds
bullets-$130
brass-$70 (if I can find the large amounts)
primers-$30
powder-$20
so I would make about $50 on 1k rounds. but then i would have to pay:

rent-$1,500/$2,000 a month
utilities-$500?
equipment-$5k?
maintnance-$500?
license and insurange?????????

making that many rounds would take up all of my free time. If I can walk away with about $1k I would be happy, but then again, thats saying that I sell all of my stock and never run out of supplies. its a dangerous business so I would have to stay ontop of things!

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 8:52 PM
What type of equipment will you be using to be able to make 100K rounds per month? That's alot of loading.

maybe a hand loader? hahahhahahaha

paul0660
06-17-2010, 8:57 PM
It is getting late, but you seem to suggest $5000 per month gross profit. Don't forget to add insurance to your rent and utilities.

And don't forget you have to make product on credit then sell it, so also apply the interest on that dough.

"All your free time" better be a whole lot. Good luck!

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 9:05 PM
It is getting late, but you seem to suggest $5000 per month gross profit. Don't forget to add insurance to your rent and utilities.

And don't forget you have to make product on credit then sell it, so also apply the interest on that dough.

"All your free time" better be a whole lot. Good luck!

lol It would be impossible to know until i start doing it. I gotta call the VA and see how much they are goin to give me for a business load :D wish me luck with that hahahhaa

tiko
06-17-2010, 9:14 PM
I live near Sacramento and see lots of .45 reloads sold in local gun stores, price around $36/100.

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 9:24 PM
I live near Sacramento and see lots of .45 reloads sold in local gun stores, price around $36/100.

that $18 for 50 rds. not bad but im going for $14 or $15 for 50rds.:43:

joelogic
06-17-2010, 9:27 PM
Dont forget excise tax.

I just made my first 200 rounds the other day.

And you want people to buy your stuff? Just giving you a hard time.

Go to your city planning office and tell them you want to manufacture ammunition, see what they say.

But based on your numbers you would have to sell 70k rounds a month to break even. To even load that amount you would need $17,500 in components/a month plus your other seed money. To do a 100k rounds a month you would need a camdex. How many reloads does miwall sell a month? I would say 90% of their business is new ammo. How many rounds does Load X sell? Probably not many but he charges a buck a round, at least for 6.8 he does.

Not trying to rain on your parade, if you have the money roll the dice.

joelogic
06-17-2010, 9:29 PM
that $18 for 50 rds. not bad but im going for $14 or $15 for 50rds.:43:

They go for that price for a reason. You couldnt run a business making $10 a 100 rounds. Just rent out your press to people. Let them roll their own ammo.

mrlightning559
06-17-2010, 9:47 PM
I think its a good idea thats how all the others started maybe you could look into making your own bullets and save there, I saw an article the other day about it maybe you should partner up with someone in a venture like this I have an ATV and motorcycle dealer here in central california that sell reloads out of that exsisting business split your rent and keep a little money dont think your gonna do it to keep the sport alive and just break even thats crazy talk you gotta get yo paypa

PM720
06-17-2010, 9:47 PM
Don't forget liability insurance too which might be pricey for an ammo company.

Scott

bjl333
06-17-2010, 9:49 PM
maybe a hand loader? hahahhahahaha



Hey !! I'll go in as a partner with you ... I've got an old Rockchucker in the garage somewhere !!!! LOL ...

All kidding aside .. Did you figuer how to load if the microstamping is enforced ?!?!? That'll leave you out of the market you want to help the most ... Cali !!

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 10:10 PM
Hey !! I'll go in as a partner with you ... I've got an old Rockchucker in the garage somewhere !!!! LOL ...

All kidding aside .. Did you figuer how to load if the microstamping is enforced ?!?!? That'll leave you out of the market you want to help the most ... Cali !!
i thought micro stamping was where the firing pin stamped the primer as it striked it. ???

incredablehefey
06-17-2010, 10:17 PM
thats what i thought too, so what does micro stamping have to do with reloading?

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 10:22 PM
thats what i thought too, so what does micro stamping have to do with reloading?
either way, if rounds are micro stamped, there are still billions and billions of rounds still out in the market. i dont think microstamping rounds will ever take effect. but, making people get their firing pins have a micro stamp...possibly, but it would take a long time for either one to take effect!

bjl333
06-17-2010, 10:23 PM
i thought micro stamping was where the firing pin stamped the primer as it striked it. ???



Sorry guys, i thought they wanted a serial number on the actual bullet. That was my understanding ... But I got the info just talking to gunshop people.
My bad !!

Oldnoob
06-17-2010, 10:23 PM
Yes go for it. More people making ammo = less of cost for me to get them.

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Sorry guys, i thought they wanted a serial number on the actual bullet. That was my understanding ... But I got the info just talking to gunshop people.
My bad !!
no prob, thats was my understanding until I saw a wiki article talking about it. :p

punisheryayarea
06-17-2010, 10:28 PM
for one, 9mm operation is not going to be worth it. the margin of the 9mm is so low that it barely breaks even with cost. try 375, .44, 5.7mm, 50AE, 50 cal, etc. the margin will be much higher and you will actually make a small amount of profit to keep the business going. .45 will give you more margin over .40. i remember doing the calculation that comparing to avg cost of .45 from the show, a 2k investment (1 die, fully auto press, powder, primer, bullet, and misc) would take reloading 30K rounds match the pay back, and thats not counting the cost for brass.

hope this gives you an idea.

911 Go For It!!!!!!!! If they pass the test ill buy your 45's, But if you ever get to make some 44mag, 44spl, 5.7x28 I'll take it too.......

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 10:31 PM
911 Go For It!!!!!!!! If they pass the test ill buy your 45's, But if you ever get to make some 44mag, 44spl, 5.7x28 I'll take it too.......

cool! thanks for the support! nice to hear theres ppl out there whilling to pay less for awesome ammo! the 200 rounds i made the other day were in my opinion, better the factory. I use TMJ rounds so easy clean up, no lead exposure.:D

thevic
06-17-2010, 10:36 PM
buy a taco truck and selllllllll!!! sell tacos too, theyre awesome

1911Operator
06-17-2010, 10:42 PM
buy a taco truck and selllllllll!!! sell tacos too, theyre awesome

:dots::rofl2: buy one taco get free 50 rounds of 45ACP hollow points. eat and feel safe at the same time! hahahahhaha

thevic
06-17-2010, 10:44 PM
lol bunch of open carry guys walking away with a dry box under one arm and tacos in both hands

cannon
06-18-2010, 5:37 AM
Good luck, I hope you pull it off.

joedogboy
06-18-2010, 8:54 AM
They go for that price for a reason. You couldnt run a business making $10 a 100 rounds. Just rent out your press to people. Let them roll their own ammo.

This seems like a much more interesting business model - particularly if you are more concerned with having a reloading setup that pays for itself, rather than actually seeking to run a profitable enough business that you can make it your full time job.


Since many people may want to reload (especially after the ammo restrictions come into effect), but may not have an appropriate space for a reloading bench (live in an apartment, dorm room, etc.), it would make sense for them to pool their resources to rent a space for reloading.
There are also economies of scale in ordering components. Want to buy 1,000 primers or 1 pound of powder through the mail? You pay the same hazmat fee as if you purchased 100,000 primers or 50 pounds of powder.
Another issue is the efficient utilization of your reloading equipment. If you spend a few hours reloading, one evening a week, then the equipment sits idle the rest of the week.
Of course, there are considerations. You'd probably want each machine to be set up for a specific loading in a specific caliber - so members wouldn't need to fuss around with setting the machinery (with all the complications that this could entail).

If you were reloading your own ammo at a club, and not selling it to others, would you even need a license?
While you would still want insurance to cover the space and equipment, you would not have the same product liability as if you sold the ammo.

bsg
06-18-2010, 9:03 AM
it sounds like you have passion for the deed going on in your corner. good luck with this project....

wsmc27
06-18-2010, 9:10 AM
:dots::rofl2: buy one taco get free 50 rounds of 45ACP hollow points. eat and feel safe at the same time! hahahahhaha

NICE! :chef: <---The 1911Operator cookin' up yo .45 n' tacos soon!

I like your enthusiasm and wish you the best.


:thumbsup:

j1133s
06-18-2010, 9:25 AM
Do you think you can do semi-custom loads? Where I supply the bullets and brass and pay the same $12/box and order in 500rnd increments. If you can produce quality, I may be able to get you a lot of business (I know many people, like me, who quit reloading but miss the good ammo.)

Also, I may be able to get you a place to help you start off, PM me once you're more committed.

We should go shooting sometime, Redwood City isn't far from where I live.

wu_dot_com
06-18-2010, 9:29 AM
one thing you also have to consider is the BS business safety regulations. since you are handling hazardous MATL (gun powder), i think its require for you to register w/ the local police depo in case there is a fire emergency.

j1133s
06-18-2010, 9:35 AM
I think its a good idea thats how all the others started maybe you could look into making your own bullets and save there, I saw an article the other day about it maybe you should partner up with someone in a venture like this I have an ATV and motorcycle dealer here in central california that sell reloads out of that exsisting business split your rent and keep a little money dont think your gonna do it to keep the sport alive and just break even thats crazy talk you gotta get yo paypa

Casting your own bullets is really dirty business I hear and can mess up your health as well. Lead bullets aren't all that expensive from what I remember, and there are sellers shipping via USPS priority mail w/o the weight cost.

Partnering up w/ an existing business that's not fully utilizing its space is a good idea to save money in the beginning. Just make sure rental agreement is clear and you are a separate renter. This way you don't get issues if the first business stops paying rent or utilities.

Chk Chk Boom
06-18-2010, 9:38 AM
.380 ACP, if you can get the brass THIS is where the money's at :)

Beemerguy
06-18-2010, 9:38 AM
Drop me a line if you ever start selling .50 AE. I have a helluva time finding it.

ElkHunterSL
06-18-2010, 9:45 AM
Here's and Idea....A storefront where customers can come in and after a 20 minute lesson can pay to reload themselves. Much like Build A Bear or those Pottery Stores.

Hmmmm.....

DTOM CA!
06-18-2010, 9:50 AM
I own my own small business (manufacturing) in CA and the State makes it tough. Really do your homework and over estimate for everything. If you can survive the first 3 years in business you will be okay. Check all the City,State and Fed. regulations to make sure you have everything covered.
On a side note make bullets that are harder to find and cost more like .45, .357 and .44 magnum. .308 , 5.7 and 30-30 are good choices as well. Good luck and talk to people that are already selling reloads. I always wanted a "real" silver bullet.

Legasat
06-18-2010, 11:43 AM
If it's really what you want to do, you should do it.

For me:

1. Making ammo in CA
2. High volume commodity business
3. Low margin business
4. High liability business

These would be negatives.

Lancear15
06-18-2010, 1:22 PM
If it's really what you want to do, you should do it.

For me:

1. Making ammo in CA
2. High volume commodity business
3. Low margin business
4. High liability business

These would be negatives.

Yup, even one of these makes it hard to be successful. But, all of them together... forget it.

Table Rock Arms
06-18-2010, 3:59 PM
yes i have done the numbers. its a lot of money, but-

for every 1k rounds
bullets-$130
brass-$70 (if I can find the large amounts)
primers-$30
powder-$20
so I would make about $50 on 1k rounds. but then i would have to pay:

rent-$1,500/$2,000 a month
utilities-$500?
equipment-$5k?
maintnance-$500?
license and insurange?????????

making that many rounds would take up all of my free time. If I can walk away with about $1k I would be happy, but then again, thats saying that I sell all of my stock and never run out of supplies. its a dangerous business so I would have to stay ontop of things!

I am working on getting my 07 FFL right now and I have been doing some research. Not sure where you got your numbers, but with an 06 FFL you will be getting bullets, powder, and primers for less than that. As for brass, I have no idea what you would be getting .45 brass for new, but if you can get it for $70 per 1000 then you will be able to make money. There are a few things to consider. One is that California is the worst possible place to do such a thing. You will also have to pay 11% of the total sale price in federal excise tax. you will have to register with the state department under ITAR and pay $2250 per year. Sounds like you can get insurance for a couple hundred dollars a month. And if your gonna be cranking out 100k rounds a month on 5k worth of equipment, your gonna have the biggest right arm anyone has ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, I think you can do it. It has been done before, but you are gonna have to get cheaper rent than you are predicting if your gonna make it work.

smle-man
06-18-2010, 5:12 PM
Hey guys, so im thinking of starting my own ammo company. its going to be small but I am planning on pumping out about 80k-100k rounds a month in the beginning. I will have my FFL 06 and be licensed and insured before I start. Im trying to get a location going in NOR-CAL for now, so probably be based up here in Redwood city or near San Francisco. I wanted to ask you (the consumers) what fair prices would be? At first I will only be doing 45ACP and I am thinking of pricing it around $14/$15 a box? I would only make a small profit but im not really in it to make the money. I just love shooting like everyone on this forum. I miss the days when it was only $12 a box of ammo and everyone could afford to shot. Now, the prices are so high and with the new FEB 2011 law coming, the prices will be going higher since the only place you can buy ammo is at a gun store or you will be forced to reload yourself. Many people my age (25yrs), and like me, live in apartments and do not have the option to start reloading. So, what do you guys think? If business picks up and funds allow me to, I would like to be making 40S&W and 9mm since they are the most commonly and popular used rounds. I have no idea what prices I would sell the 40S&W & 9mm at but I would sacrafice a lower profit just to see people having a good time and enjoying the sport.:D My goal is to beat any prices from the big companies!

A fair price is what you can make money at. Starting in the ammo business isn't the way to make money especially in CA. Best have mega amounts of capital backing.

XDRoX
06-18-2010, 5:32 PM
I would consider 380 and 10mm as start up calibers.

Sionadi
06-18-2010, 6:04 PM
Start reloading .380 ASAP. My girlfriend is chewing me out to get her some but cant find any.

Im sure there are many people in the same situation for .380.

Curtis
06-18-2010, 7:15 PM
1911 - You should go for it! Although starting a business isn't for everyone, it can be done. As for ammo manufacturing, there are a dozen in California that I can recall of the top of my head, so even an ammo business can be done. The best way to start is when you have a steady source of income.

I too have been working on a business plan for an ammo business. I have my FFL and I'm working on the city permits at the moment. I've run the numbers and found what many have posted before: 9mm has no margin, the more specialized the higher the profit.

I've looked at loaders of all ranges. With a Dillon you can load about 1,000 rounds an hour. With an automated Dillon system, you can load up to 1,500 rounds an hour. With an Ammo Load Worldwide system you can load between 3,000 and 6,000 rounds per hour.

As for funding, starting small takes less money, but also takes longer to grow. I have a funding idea, but it still needs more work on the plan before announcing it. For the larger machines, the cost of the equipment is small when compared to the cost of the components.

I wish you the best of luck. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I have started up several business. I can also pass on info on the ammo business.....but I was help by other on Calguns that know more than I know.

Curtis

Mssr. Eleganté
06-18-2010, 8:31 PM
..so I would make about $50 on 1k rounds...

Federal excise tax on ammunition would take $33 of that $50. So you'd only get $17 per 1000 rounds. Then your $30,000 per year in other expenses (rent, licensing, etc...) would eat up another $25 per 1000 rounds if you were only making 1.2 million rounds per year. So that would leave you $8 in the hole for every 1000 rounds you made. You could break even by raising the price of your ammo by 40˘ per box, but then people would start calling you a gouger. :p

Hella Copter
06-18-2010, 8:44 PM
I can just imagine illegal immigrants working in a sweatshop making ammo 12 hours a day.

Now I'm tempted to start my own business.

Left Coast Conservative
06-18-2010, 9:54 PM
I am planning on pumping out about 80k-100k rounds a month in the beginning.

Let me repeat my tag line: this business model is complete B.S.

Let me explain. Per the above quote, the minimum production is 80k rounds/month. Assuming a 30 day month, and minimum production, this results in a production rate of one round of ammunition every 32.4 seconds, 24 hours per day, seven days per week.

That production rate requires two things: first, automated ammunition production equipment, and, two, employees: at least two, because to run 24/7 you need three shifts, so counting the OP, there are two additional employees needed to feed and maintain the production equipment, assuming an eight hour shift, and assuming that the OP is taking an 8 hour shift himself.

None of the above accounts for purchasing and handling material during production, not does anything above account for marketing, sales, and delivery of finished product. And it does not account for the OP assertion that this entire thing is going to be a "spare time" effort.

None of the above addresses mundane business aspects like zoning ordinances about running a production business in a residential area (strongly implied in the OP), nor do they address the legality of handling nearly 100 lbs of powder (8.5 grains in each of 80k rounds) in anything other than an industrial area, nor the cost of employees in terms of taxes, workers compensation insurance, Cal OSHA compliance (lead and flamable materials handling), and taxes of business profits.

This entire post smacks of someone who has never even attempted to run a business, and I reaffirm that I believe (IMHO) that the numbers are B.S.

I am quite willing to be convinced that I am wrong, because I would love to buy 1k of .45 ACP at $15 per 50, but I do not think that the OP can supply the required production.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-18-2010, 11:00 PM
blah, blah, math, blah, blah...

Dude, stop harshing his buzz. :coolgleamA:

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 10:52 PM
Based on the information you provide, absolutely not. You just started handloading. You have no experience. You have no idea what you are doing.

You have no business experience or management knowledge. This is epic failure all over the place. Run a search here for "freakshow" and see what lack of business knowledge will do to you and your business. Words cannot express the ruin I'm going through right now because I didn't know how to run a business and learned the hard way. Don't let it happen to you. I don't wish my life on my worst enemy.

Read my thread on starting an ammo business in the Ammo & Reloading forum here. Sure I have critics but I've been in the ammo making business for over three years and have a bit of insight that few Calgunners have. I share it in the thread.

Now to critique.

Your costs are way to high and your goal is way to low. You start a business to make profit, not to make people happy. You make customers happy and it allows you to make profit, but friends aren't the reason you started the business. Profit is.

You will not make 80,000 rounds a month. Get real.

From the get go you have passion, which is admirable and I respect that. I've been there. You have no plan. I mean real solid and realistic plan. Business is not a soup kitchen, it's a for-profit enterprise; I can't stress that enough.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to run my business from home and have ultra low overhead. If I sell 3,000 rounds a month, I break even. I would have no problem selling .45 ammo for $300 per K and making money on it. You OTOH, won't. I doubt in your city you'd be approved for the FFL or local business license, etc for your apartment. You'd have to rent a place. That means you have more expenses to cover which takes more money to fund components and then try to sell it a few months after having learned to load your own ammo and now you're loading for others. Sorry, less than 20% of the forum members who say they will buy from you will actually buy from you and even less knowing you're new at loading which increases their risk and makes them more reluctant to buy from you.

My suggestion is to spend a few years learning to load ammo. Simply slapping stuff together isn't handloading. Learn the how and the why and the results of what you're doing. Then if your business knowledge is up to par and you have financing taken care of, venture into your own business. Ammunition manufacturing is simply not a business you rush into. It takes time. Be patient.

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 10:53 PM
Dude, stop harshing his buzz. :coolgleamA:
No, he actually gave good feedback. I agree with LCC's post. This situation with the OP is a terrible idea to get started loading ammunition for a business in every way possible. It's not about "harshing his buzz" it's about preventing the epic mistake of a young 20 something man wanting to venture into business.

1911Operator
06-26-2010, 11:01 PM
Based on the information you provide, absolutely not. You just started handloading. You have no experience. You have no idea what you are doing.

You have no business experience or management knowledge. This is epic failure all over the place. Run a search here for "freakshow" and see what lack of business knowledge will do to you and your business. Words cannot express the ruin I'm going through right now because I didn't know how to run a business and learned the hard way. Don't let it happen to you. I don't wish my life on my worst enemy.

Read my thread on starting an ammo business in the Ammo & Reloading forum here. Sure I have critics but I've been in the ammo making business for over three years and have a bit of insight that few Calgunners have. I share it in the thread.

Now to critique.

Your costs are way to high and your goal is way to low. You start a business to make profit, not to make people happy. You make customers happy and it allows you to make profit, but friends aren't the reason you started the business. Profit is.

You will not make 80,000 rounds a month. Get real.

From the get go you have passion, which is admirable and I respect that. I've been there. You have no plan. I mean real solid and realistic plan. Business is not a soup kitchen, it's a for-profit enterprise; I can't stress that enough.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to run my business from home and have ultra low overhead. If I sell 3,000 rounds a month, I break even. I would have no problem selling .45 ammo for $300 per K and making money on it. You OTOH, won't. I doubt in your city you'd be approved for the FFL or local business license, etc for your apartment. You'd have to rent a place. That means you have more expenses to cover which takes more money to fund components and then try to sell it a few months after having learned to load your own ammo and now you're loading for others. Sorry, less than 20% of the forum members who say they will buy from you will actually buy from you and even less knowing you're new at loading which increases their risk and makes them more reluctant to buy from you.

My suggestion is to spend a few years learning to load ammo. Simply slapping stuff together isn't handloading. Learn the how and the why and the results of what you're doing. Then if your business knowledge is up to par and you have financing taken care of, venture into your own business. Ammunition manufacturing is simply not a business you rush into. It takes time. Be patient.

thanks for the advice. but let me tell you I DONT get greedy, and Im not trying to expand any time soon. I will sell over the internet and im sure with about a $30k business loan ill do just fine. I just got my FFL 06 application and I am going to submit it next week! ill keep everyone updated on the progress.

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 11:05 PM
If you're going forward with this, good luck. I feel you are going to have hard lessons in the future.

SJgunguy24
06-26-2010, 11:11 PM
If you're going forward with this, good luck. I feel you are going to have hard lessons in the future.

HOLY CRAP Adam. Man I heard about what you've been going through. Man I hope you can pull through and at least try to fix your reputation.

To the OP, Adam is well qualified to tell you what not to do. Even with the best intentions the plan can go to hell quick. Especially in CA.

1911Operator
06-26-2010, 11:17 PM
If you're going forward with this, good luck. I feel you are going to have hard lessons in the future.
lol well its the only way to learn right? hahahha, but I hope you pull through in the end, keep your head up and know that its could always be worse. I mean look at the retard from BP! he lost $20 billlliiiiiooooooooon dollars worth and might of ended all the ocean life of the golf coast!! I have had things back fire before but nothing $30k's worth so im going to keep my fingers crossed that it works for me!

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 11:18 PM
Yeah, buying your kid food with food stamps has been really humiliating for the last few months. The refunds will take another two months hopefully. The reputation will take years.

1911Operator
06-26-2010, 11:26 PM
Yeah, buying your kid food with food stamps has been really humiliating for the last few months. The refunds will take another two months hopefully. The reputation will take years.

:( man that sucks!

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 11:29 PM
lol well its the only way to learn right?
I see the joke in your post but it isn't a joke what I'm going through. It isn't a joke trying to prevent others from making the mistakes I made. The best lessons are learned the EASY way, not the hard way.

I have had things back fire before but nothing $30k's worth so im going to keep my fingers crossed that it works for me!
Crossing fingers isn't going to do you any good. That's is a piss poor mentality to have running a business. Remember you're on a public forum and your potential customers are seeing what you type.

Crossing your fingers on $30K scares me. I wish you could see me shake my head right now. I wish I could meet with you in person and talk sense into you. I'm scared for you, I really am. Business is a calculated risk. Calculate the risk. Seriously get realistic numbers together before you act.

Ron-Solo
06-26-2010, 11:39 PM
lol well its the only way to learn right? hahahha, but I hope you pull through in the end, keep your head up and know that its could always be worse. I mean look at the retard from BP! he lost $20 billlliiiiiooooooooon dollars worth and might of ended all the ocean life of the golf coast!! I have had things back fire before but nothing $30k's worth so im going to keep my fingers crossed that it works for me!

Save your money and learn to spell, along with the proper use of grammar and punctuation. If you come across as illiterate, who would trust that the ammo you produce is safe and reliable?

freakshow10mm
06-26-2010, 11:39 PM
:( man that sucks!
Now you know the failure end of poor business management, but you don't know it (taste the experience). Looking into your son's eyes knowing full well his future is pretty much ****ed for the next few years it takes you to get back on your feet again is such a heart wrenching experience words cannot acutely articulate. You have no clue what that does to a man as a father of a child.

Assuming you're single, there's less risk from fallout, but why chance it? I've got a T shirt that says "Of course I don't look busy, I did it right the first time." Truer statements have never been made. Do it right the first time or don't do it at all. The business world is not where you want to practice your skills.

xLusi0n
06-26-2010, 11:53 PM
I think Freakshow has given you the best advice. From reading your posts, it doesn't even sound like you have a business plan (I mean a formal one).

Getting a business loan? It's not like getting a car loan. They're going to want to see a solid business plan. Not one that aims for a small profit. If I was a loan officer, the last thing I'd want to hear is: "I'm not greedy."

And realistically, you're not going to beat competitors' pricing...Winchester and such have economies of scale that you just can't realistically beat.

I also wouldn't feel comfortable buying reloaded ammo from someone who just went from making his first 200 to starting his own ammo business.

All in all, I applaud your enthusiasm - and I apologize in advance for being so negative. However, I think you're making a big financial mistake here...and you're ignoring the advice that you don't want to hear.

Oh and here's a link to Freakshow's referenced post: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=314780

glockwise2000
06-27-2010, 12:39 AM
I would say "do it". You would never see the real cost until you started one. Remember that most of the time business that are just starting-up don't make that much profit at first. It is going to be a while until you pick up the pieces then you start to see your business picking.

Specially AB962 is around the corner anytime soon.

1911Operator
06-27-2010, 12:45 AM
Save your money and learn to spell, along with the proper use of grammar and punctuation. If you come across as illiterate, who would trust that the ammo you produce is safe and reliable?

what does my grammar have anything to do how I reload? this is a forum! no one cares.

MrSlippyFist
06-30-2010, 7:28 PM
what does my grammar have anything to do how I reload? this is a forum! no one cares.

I believe that his point was that you should come off as a professional.

1911Operator
06-30-2010, 8:22 PM
I believe that his point was that you should come off as a professional.

thanks clp.slippy hahahah yeah i know, but im not at work. im at home, guess u guys never heard of not taking your work home with u? its down time for me so ill have all the graimor mispelleds wordes i vant. :D but business is business and thats when and where i get professional!

Ron-Solo
06-30-2010, 10:13 PM
what does my grammar have anything to do how I reload? this is a forum! no one cares.

I certainly would not buy reloaded ammo from someone who doesn't have the pride to do something correctly. It is not ammo that I would trust to be safe to shoot. It reflects directly toward your quality control. If you sound ignorant, you lose a level of trust and respect.

Learn to use the 'shift' key at the right time. Oh, and your anticipated production quantities are not practical in any manner. You have a lot to learn, which shows you lack good experience needed to be successful.

And, good luck getting materials, especially primers.

1911Operator
06-30-2010, 10:17 PM
I certainly would not buy reloaded ammo from someone who doesn't have the pride to do something correctly. It is not ammo that I would trust to be safe to shoot. It reflects directly toward your quality control. If you sound ignorant, you lose a level of trust and respect.

Learn to use the 'shift' key at the right time. Oh, and your anticipated production quantities are not practical in any manner. You have a lot to learn, which shows you lack good experience needed to be successful.

And, good luck getting materials, especially primers.
:popcorn:

nn3453
06-30-2010, 10:54 PM
If you're going forward with this, good luck. I feel you are going to have hard lessons in the future.

I am highly critical of Adam because of some experiences a friend and some acquaintances had when dealing with him. That being said, I will acknowledge that he knows what he is talking about when is advising you. Heed these words. You are new to firearms and reloading. This is not the road you should go down, my friend. I know when you are 20 something, you are arrogant, everything seems possible and you don't want to listen to anyone, but please don't turn your life into a tale of "I told you so." You are setting yourself up for failure. You are enthusiastic, which is great, but enthusiasm without a plan and experience is worthless. You already started another thread elsewhere where I commented. The reason I am repeating myself is because it would be sad to see a young guy's life ruined. Also, good luck getting a business loan if you are in person the way you seem like when you post here.

GSG222
07-01-2010, 11:48 AM
A lot of good advice here (have no idea who Adam is and what he has been going through - but man I feel your pain and hope things will turn around soon)
Meanwhile it appears that the OP has alreay pulled the trigger and there is no easy back. I want to say good luck. As with many others, I feel that your plan as is will likely fail; however, I do think there is opportunity here. We all see that ammo supply will become a problem next year; yet we don't see a solution. Maybe you can learn from your mistakes and adjust/adapt to provide a solution. The benefit of doing such a hard business is that it gives you a high entry barrier - so others cannot jump in easily and eat up your profit margin overnight. Yes, with reload you will have a hard time to win trust from your first time customers. But you can certainly build it up if your QA is solid and your pricing is right. It may not even take long if your service can truly fill in the vaccum created by the feb/2011 change of ammo regulations.

1911Operator
07-01-2010, 1:32 PM
It may not even take long if your service can truly fill in the vaccum created by the feb/2011 change of ammo regulations.

VACCUME! hahaha i like that! lol, and yes I want to success because I want people to keep shooting. thats why we buy guns, its because its addicting! its kind of like buying a car and not having money for gas. looking at it isnt going to give me thrills! I have to drive it! and fast!!!!

Super Spy
07-01-2010, 2:13 PM
I wish you the best of success and I recommend that you heed the advice of someone who's been down that road before. Coming off as cocky and dismissive of criticism isn't going to instill confidence in you or your product.......I don't feel too comfortable buying ammo that can blow up my gun and part of me from someone that has the attitude that only comes with youth and inexperience. You have yet to make the mistakes that you will later learn from.

I'd love to have source of reasonably priced ammo, though I doubt you will be able to produce ammo for the prices you've stated and stay in business. I'm also going to wait and hear what other people have to say about your ammo and business practices before I buy anything.

gh916
07-01-2010, 3:09 PM
Don't forget liability insurance too which might be pricey for an ammo company.

Scott

+1

I'm sure liability insurance WILL be high. I was a small business owner myself & insurance was substantial -- & that was not dealing with any potentially dangerous objects. You'd also want to make sure you don't skimp on coverage because 1 bad round is one thing... if a bad batch makes it through, you're looking at potentially many accidents & possibly many lawsuits. It's nice of you to want to perpetuate the sport, but don't do it at the expense of your financial safety (ex: taking on too big a lease, or inadequately insuring yourself).

heliopolissolutions
07-01-2010, 3:48 PM
I think that the only thing you need to understand right now, is that you have many other things you can and should do with your life. And this is not what you need to be doing right now.