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View Full Version : Quick loading CA-AR... Here's a thought.


DigglerD
04-01-2006, 10:13 AM
So with the invention of the 3 turn fixed mag to releasable mag solution here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31090

I got to thinking, as long as the pistol grip is removed, we can drop the mag correct?

Why not engineer some sort of quick release pistol grip. This way when you are done with a mag, you can release the pistol grip and then undo the fixed mag mod to release the mag.

My thought here being to use a 3-5" allen recessed (no bolt head) set boltand run it down into the lower reciever where the grip hold down bolt would typically go. Put the grip on over the set bolt. With the set screw protruding about 1/2-1" out of the bottom of the grip you can do one of two things... (1) Make a butt plate for the pistol grip with a hole in the center, use a knured nut (so that you can install and remove by hand) to put on the protruding threads from the set bolt and lock the butt plate down, thus locking the grip to the reciever. or (2) same as one but instead of using a knurled nut, you drill the set bolt shank and use a quick release pin or push pin to fasten the butt plate. #2 may be faster but might not fasten the grip as tight as the knurled nut.

Shoot ten rounds, drop you grip, undo your mag lock and drop your mag. New mag in, grip back on and you are back in it.

nickj03b
04-01-2006, 10:18 AM
but what about when you are shooting? You have a pistol grip and detachable mag, if thats what you mean then good luck.

xenophobe
04-01-2006, 10:21 AM
Shoot ten rounds, drop you grip, undo your mag lock and drop your mag. New mag in, grip back on and you are back in it.

That sounds like a lot more hassle than pushing the takedown pin, loading and then pushing it back in. lol

wilit
04-01-2006, 11:06 AM
That sounds like a lot more hassle than pushing the takedown pin, loading and then pushing it back in. lol

+1 Why go through all the steps of removing the pistol grip just so you could remove the magazine? Especially if you're only going to legally own 10 round mags.

GW
04-01-2006, 11:15 AM
Why not some sort of curved chute that goes in thru the ejection port with a semi-rigid follower that you shove the rounds in with?

Snuffalofogus
04-01-2006, 11:27 AM
Why not some sort of curved chute that goes in thru the ejection port with a semi-rigid follower that you shove the rounds in with?
xeno said it best
That sounds like a lot more hassle than pushing the takedown pin, loading and then pushing it back in. lol

Nick5811
04-01-2006, 11:29 AM
but what about when you are shooting? You have a pistol grip and detachable mag, if thats what you mean then good luck.

That's not what he said....he would have a pinned mag with a pistol grip.

Then he would remove the pistol grip.

Then he would 'un-pin' the mag to reload.

Replace the mag with a (legally possessed) full one.

Replace the pistol grip.

*I* personally like the idea of it, mainly because I like options; however *I* think it's a little 'gray' and personally *I* wouldn't do it at this point in time.

If you are still confused about the pinned mag thing look up the thread on the mag release with the recessed allen head (which requires a 'Tool' to remove).

kick Z tail out
04-01-2006, 11:32 AM
I think a magical shape-shifting alloy that would allow your fingers to penetrate through the top of the upper to reload, without opening it-- would make things easiest. :cool:

Santa Cruz Armory
04-01-2006, 11:42 AM
I can release the bolt, flop the top open load 10 rounds and be back in action in 15-20 seconds and thats not going for speed...if you were gonna use these rifles for speed shooting you buillt the wrong gun! I have a 10/22 if I want to "squirt lead".

I personally built mine for the simple fact that I didnt get one back in the day and this is my chance to build and own the "spooky" black rifle.:eek: and I also built it to thumb my nose at the ridiculous gun laws here in CA, but it's built to follow the law by building it the way I did. It just shows that the CA gun laws are absurd.

If this gun was blued or had a wood stock/ furniture back in the day it would have never been banned. IMHO

aklover_91
04-01-2006, 12:03 PM
I can release the bolt, flop the top open load 10 rounds and be back in action in 15-20 seconds and thats not going for speed...if you were gonna use these rifles for speed shooting you buillt the wrong gun! I have a 10/22 if I want to "squirt lead".

I personally built mine for the simple fact that I didnt get one back in the day and this is my chance to build and own the "spooky" black rifle.:eek: and I also built it to thumb my nose at the ridiculous gun laws here in CA, but it's built to follow the law by building it the way I did. It just shows that the CA gun laws are absurd.

If this gun was blued or had a wood stock/ furniture back in the day it would have never been banned. IMHOyup, you're probably right.

DigglerD
04-01-2006, 12:22 PM
That sounds like a lot more hassle than pushing the takedown pin, loading and then pushing it back in. lol
Not if you already have pre-loaded mags...

blacklisted
04-01-2006, 2:40 PM
I was actually considering a miniature cylindrical lock so you could release the mag with a key, lol.

wutzu
04-02-2006, 3:23 AM
So with the invention of the 3 turn fixed mag to releasable mag solution here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31090

I got to thinking, as long as the pistol grip is removed, we can drop the mag correct?
...
Shoot ten rounds, drop you grip, undo your mag lock and drop your mag. New mag in, grip back on and you are back in it.

This wouldn't be "quick". it'd be a pain in the ***.

Super_tactical
04-03-2006, 10:36 AM
It would probably be a pain. However, I really love to see people thinking and sharing great ideas on here.

Notice that without all the ideas running through here, we'd still be sitting there holding our Vulcans!!

Some great mind on here is going to fassion a really awesome way around the stupid laws.

wutzu
04-03-2006, 11:45 PM
It would probably be a pain. However, I really love to see people thinking and sharing great ideas on here.

Notice that without all the ideas running through here, we'd still be sitting there holding our Vulcans!!

Some great mind on here is going to fassion a really awesome way around the stupid laws.

+1 ten characters or more

xenophobe
04-04-2006, 12:07 AM
Not if you already have pre-loaded mags...

Your system would require you to A) remove pistol grip B) adjust mag lock so the magazine can be removed C) remove magazine D) insert new magazine E) lock the mag F) attach pistol grip

How would having preloaded mags help you if all I have to do is A) pull pin B) load mag C) close pin?

Your procedure has 4 time consuming steps... mine only has one. I would be willing to bet rifles that I could load mine and empty the mag twice before you could even get a shot off. I'd even place money on top of it.

blackrifle
04-04-2006, 12:12 AM
Maybe someone should make a "CA Special" Lower that has a picatinny rail/slot where the pistol grip screw normally goes. Then you could create an adapter to give you something like the picture below but without the wedge between the grip and the ARMS quick release...of course, I'd rather have it with a LaRue quick release (the lever arms are known to break on ARMS....ask me how I know... :rolleyes: F*#&! POS MIM cast garbage...)

http://ultimak.com/products/ARMS-23.jpg

The only issue I can see (besides having to have a specially machined lower or an adapter made to fit a standard lower) is that the safety selector detent spring would need to be held captive. I guess a small set screw (#2-56 or #1-72) would do the job...

...I think Xenophobe is right though...the "FAB10" method is faster. I'm just glad I was into AR's before SB23...damn near went broke in 1999 (well, truth be told, my financial strife started in the late 80's...damn these blackrifles!!!) but now I'm glad I did it...I should have bought more property back in the 90's too....DOH!!

DigglerD
04-04-2006, 12:28 AM
Your system would require you to A) remove pistol grip B) adjust mag lock so the magazine can be removed C) remove magazine D) insert new magazine E) lock the mag F) attach pistol grip

How would having preloaded mags help you if all I have to do is A) pull pin B) load mag C) close pin?

Your procedure has 4 time consuming steps... mine only has one. I would be willing to bet rifles that I could load mine and empty the mag twice before you could even get a shot off. I'd even place money on top of it.

Open up the gun...

one bullet...

two bullet...

three bullet...

four bullet...

Chances are you're right... but not nearly by the long shot or the tedium you claim exists in your A-F breakdown.

slick_711
04-04-2006, 12:33 AM
I can release the bolt, flop the top open load 10 rounds and be back in action in 15-20 seconds and thats not going for speed...if you were gonna use these rifles for speed shooting you buillt the wrong gun! I have a 10/22 if I want to "squirt lead".

I personally built mine for the simple fact that I didnt get one back in the day and this is my chance to build and own the "spooky" black rifle.:eek: and I also built it to thumb my nose at the ridiculous gun laws here in CA, but it's built to follow the law by building it the way I did. It just shows that the CA gun laws are absurd.

+1

I'm glad people are thinking of ways to make this easier on us, keep thinking and keep sharing! But this particular way does seem like it would be more/equal hassle to our current flip-open situation. I'm still waiting on my upper for my first build so I can't speak from true personal experience, but I've played around with the Carbon-15 quite a bit, and it's more irritating than time consuming in my opinion. If you really don't want to flip-open to load, use the sporting conversions kit and keep an allen wrench with you. I could be mistaken, so please correct me if I am...

I had been planning to do that with my rifle when I'm in a "safe" area such as an abandoned outdoor range, or the range I work @ when they're not crowded and I know who is/isn't LEO. Then just loosen the nut, remove & swap mag, tighten nut, shoot, repeat. The law says you have to have either a non-detachable mag, or a mag you need a tool to detach, doesn't it? It doesn't say you CAN'T detach the mag, just that you need a tool.

I always interpreted that to be more of a "we don't want bank robbers swapping between 40 rd. mags in 2 seconds" type thing than a "If you remove your mag with an allen wrench to reload you're a criminal" type thing. But like I said, I could be misinterpreting the law. And what's to say a DA or LEO would interpret it in the reasonable way I do.

blacklisted
04-04-2006, 12:40 AM
It was Tactical Customs (http://www.tacticalcustoms.com/) and they haven't updated that part of the site for months.

1) Sometime last year there was talk of sewing or attaching a pistol grip to the palm of a glove. The pistol grip would slide onto the lower with a stud and hole system.

2) There is a company in Sparks, NV that was working on an externally loaded magazine for the AR. Something about a door on the side of the exposed part of the mag. Can't remember the name of the company (Tactical Solutions?). Since Lower Madness set in, I haven't heard anything about or from them.

colin1
04-04-2006, 1:38 AM
The only problem with your idea Slick_711 is that once you remove the pin, or set screw or nut your rifle becomes a centerfire, semi auto, with a pistol grip and a detachable mag, an AW. Yes you are "supposed" to be able to detach your pinned mag but to do that within the law you would first have to remove the pistol grip. Not to mention something that someone brought up to me. Once you have a pinned mag everything else is open right? Like collapsable stocks, forward pistol grips, and flash hiders. BUT if you want to detach your mag and you take off the pistol grip but have these other features your still not legal to un-lock/unfix your mag. Because now you dont have a pistol grip but your rifle just became a centerfire, semiauto with a detachable mag, and with any of the other features including a collapsable stock, flash hider, forward pistol grip, etc... You have a AW. Use caution guys.

xenophobe
04-04-2006, 11:52 AM
Open up the gun...

one bullet...

two bullet...

three bullet...

four bullet...

Chances are you're right... but not nearly by the long shot or the tedium you claim exists in your A-F breakdown.

Never heard of a stripper clip? I can load a fab-10 with a stripper clip without a guide...

Even without one, I can load a magazine pretty damn fast...

DigglerD
04-04-2006, 11:54 AM
Never heard of a stripper clip? I can load a fab-10 with a stripper clip without a guide...

Even without one, I can load a magazine pretty damn fast...

I have and while my only experience with them is in REALLY REALLY old guns... they are clumbsy, and bothersome.

slick_711
04-04-2006, 5:42 PM
The only problem with your idea Slick_711 is that once you remove the pin, or set screw or nut your rifle becomes a centerfire, semi auto, with a pistol grip and a detachable mag, an AW. Yes you are "supposed" to be able to detach your pinned mag but to do that within the law you would first have to remove the pistol grip. Not to mention something that someone brought up to me. Once you have a pinned mag everything else is open right? Like collapsable stocks, forward pistol grips, and flash hiders. BUT if you want to detach your mag and you take off the pistol grip but have these other features your still not legal to un-lock/unfix your mag. Because now you dont have a pistol grip but your rifle just became a centerfire, semiauto with a detachable mag, and with any of the other features including a collapsable stock, flash hider, forward pistol grip, etc... You have a AW. Use caution guys.

See, that's not how I would interpret the law, but then... I don't work for the DOJ, so I'm sure you're right. Oh well. :(