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4DSJW
06-17-2010, 5:46 PM
My dad would like to give me a pistol that he owns. He is now a Nevada resident and I am a CA resident. He called the FFL that he used to do business with in CA and explained what he wanted to do and that he currently lives in NV.

The FFL told him that all he had to do was to fill out an "Act of Law Transfer" form, available from the DOJ, send it in with a $25 fee and we would be good to go.

This does not sound right to me as Federal law requires the pistol to pass through an FFL if it is going between states and CA considers it an Intrafamilial transfer. I did a search on CalGuns and the web for information on that particular form and could not find anything... but I don't know everything by a stretch and thought I would ask here. Has anyone ever heard of this form, either CA DOJ or Federal DOJ, or know how it would work.

Thank you for your help!

bwiese
06-17-2010, 6:11 PM
You are correct to worry. The FFL is wrong. He was probably also trying to be nice and (in theory) attempt to save you money.

Guns transferred across state lines generally need to go thru an FFL in the receiving state.

There is an "intrafamily exemption" (for certain lineal relatives) in CA law - but that's when both parties are CA residents in CA!

But Fed law does not recognize this and requires FFL use. [Really, the only major exemption to avoiding FFL use in transfers is in the case of bequest/inheritance - and that means the supplying party is indeed *dead* - not that Gramps is getting old and wants to give you his guns.]

Normally there are concerns about the handgun's Roster status but these are moot because the intrafamily exemption to the Roster applies.

So now, what CAN be done is this:


your dad writes a gift letter (to be shipped with gun), identifying the gun and parties' names/relationship:

<Date>
"I, Joe Blow, want my son, John Blow, to have
this nice Colt Python revolver, S/N 123456.

Signed, Joe Blow


the CA FFL accepts the handgun shipped by your dad.
you come in and 4473/DROS the handgun. (I assume you have valid HSC card and proof of residency.)
if the handgun is not Rostered (likely!), the Roster-exemption part of DROS screen is completed and "12078PC
intrafamily transfer" is written in. The FFL keeps (a copy of) the gift letter in his files just in case of audit questions.


What happens is thus:
- CA does not require FFL usage or Rostering;
- the Feds require CA FFL usage.

So the transfer is Roster exempt and is only run thru CA FFL to keep the *Feds* happy.

Note that this is not a 'private party transfer', and the FFL does not have to limit his service fees to ~$35.

Many FFLs do not understand the above process, also, and think any handgun that comes in across state lines must be Rostered. This is not true; intrafamily Roster exemption is applicable for the release of the handgun by FFL regardless of the state of origin of the handgun as long as the supplying party is indeed a lineal family member (grandparent, parent, child, grandchild).

4DSJW
06-17-2010, 6:36 PM
Bill, thank you. That is exactly what I had gathered over the last few weeks of searching on CGN, much of the the information was in posts by you btw. What you have already mentioned and also that he can personally bring the gun with him into CA and deliver it directly to the FFL, with me, to do the transfer.

But the info that the FFL gave my dad was new to me and since I do not know all the laws, who does, I thought that perhaps an Action of Law Transfer form might actually exist. Does it, or is the FFL completely incorrect?

Thank you again!

CaliforniaLiberal
06-17-2010, 8:34 PM
To add a bit of complexity to the same question....

If a family member is a enlisted in the US Armed Forces stationed in another state he can use his duty orders to buy a handgun in the state where he is stationed, correct? And while visiting home in California might transfer the handgun to a lineal family member as a resident of California without referring to an FFL, correct?

I'm assuming he retains California residency while being able to purchase firearms locally based on his orders and that the Feds don't require an FFL because he is still a resident of California.

If I'm mistaken I'd assume that the situation and requirements of the OP would hold.

Thanks!

bwiese
06-17-2010, 8:50 PM
But the info that the FFL gave my dad was new to me and
since I do not know all the laws, who does, I thought that
perhaps an Action of Law Transfer form might actually exist.
Does it, or is the FFL completely incorrect?

The Operation of Law form does indeed exist. However, it's for things like inheritances/bequests, etc. - i.e, various legal operations requiring or driving transfer of a firearm.

The form he's thinking of is the Intrafamilial Transfer form. If your dad were a CA resident and in CA, he'd just give you the gun and you'd just fill out the form within 30 days. (You of course need have a valid HSC card, be non-felon, etc.)

Both forms really end up at the same place and do the same thing, however - effectively DROSing your gun the same way as if you bought a handgun at a CA FFL and filled out all the forms. [And I'd bet the DOJ actually gets quite a few misfilings btwn the OpLaw and Intrafamily forms, and just proceeds forward since all the bases are generally covered with either form - no harm, no foul.]

bwiese
06-17-2010, 8:55 PM
To add a bit of complexity to the same question....

If a family member is a enlisted in the US Armed Forces stationed in another state he can use his duty orders to buy a handgun in the state where he is stationed, correct? And while visiting home in California might transfer the handgun to a lineal family member as a resident of California without referring to an FFL, correct?

This sounds OK to me...
1. he gets the exception to buy the gun elsewhere due to .mil status;
2. he's a CA resident back in CA, so no CA FFL needed for intrafamily xfer

[IIRC, .mil folks in such situations need to file a reg form + fee ("Voluntary Registration" I think) when returning with the handgun to CA.]

I'm assuming he retains California residency while being able to purchase firearms locally based on his orders and that the Feds don't require an FFL because he is still a resident of California.

Yes this seems to be the case - quite a few Calgunners or relatives thereof are in active .mil and acquire firearms elsewhere and then return to CA.

One should however not do this in bulk/for profit otherwise Feds don't like 'acting like a dealer' without an FFL. CA'd get upset too.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-17-2010, 10:08 PM
The Operation of Law form does indeed exist. However, it's for things like inheritances/bequests, etc. - i.e, various legal operations requiring or driving transfer of a firearm.

The form he's thinking of is the Intrafamilial Transfer form.

One thing that probably added to the FFL's confusion is that operations of law and intrafamilial transfers both use the exact same form. The name of the form is "REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION" :)

bwiese
06-17-2010, 10:37 PM
One thing that probably added to the FFL's confusion is that operations of law and intrafamilial transfers both use the exact same form. The name of the form is "REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION" :)

I coulda sworn they were separate forms.

Perhaps they were separate forms in the past?

Mssr. Eleganté
06-17-2010, 10:57 PM
I coulda sworn they were separate forms.

Perhaps they were separate forms in the past?

Maybe. They've been a combined form since early 2005 at least. I don't know about before then.

*** EDIT ***

I just did an Archive.org search of CalDOJ's forms download page and in 2003 there was only a "Firearm Operation of Law Registration Form". That form doesn't mention intra-familial transfers and there was no separate form for intra-familial transfers at that time.

Librarian
06-18-2010, 10:31 AM
You are correct to worry. The FFL is wrong. He was probably also trying to be nice and (in theory) attempt to save you money.

Guns transferred across state lines generally need to go thru an FFL in the receiving state.

There is an "intrafamily exemption" (for certain lineal relatives) in CA law - but that's when both parties are CA residents in CA!

But Fed law does not recognize this and requires FFL use. [Really, the only major exemption to avoiding FFL use in transfers is in the case of bequest/inheritance - and that means the supplying party is indeed *dead* - not that Gramps is getting old and wants to give you his guns.]

Normally there are concerns about the handgun's Roster status but these are moot because the intrafamily exemption to the Roster applies.

So now, what CAN be done is this:


your dad writes a gift letter (to be shipped with gun), identifying the gun and parties' names/relationship:

<Date>
"I, Joe Blow, want my son, John Blow, to have
this nice Colt Python revolver, S/N 123456.

Signed, Joe Blow


the CA FFL accepts the handgun shipped by your dad.
you come in and 4473/DROS the handgun. (I assume you have valid HSC card and proof of residency.)
if the handgun is not Rostered (likely!), the Roster-exemption part of DROS screen is completed and "12078PC
intrafamily transfer" is written in. The FFL keeps (a copy of) the gift letter in his files just in case of audit questions.


What happens is thus:
- CA does not require FFL usage or Rostering;
- the Feds require CA FFL usage.

So the transfer is Roster exempt and is only run thru CA FFL to keep the *Feds* happy.

Note that this is not a 'private party transfer', and the FFL does not have to limit his service fees to ~$35.

Many FFLs do not understand the above process, also, and think any handgun that comes in across state lines must be Rostered. This is not true; intrafamily Roster exemption is applicable for the release of the handgun by FFL regardless of the state of origin of the handgun as long as the supplying party is indeed a lineal family member (grandparent, parent, child, grandchild).

Just added a version of this to the wiki - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/The_Safe_Handgun_List#A_Brief_.22How_To_Do_It.22_I nterstate.2C_Intrafamily

Thanks, Bill.

4DSJW
06-18-2010, 4:20 PM
The Operation of Law form does indeed exist. However, it's for things like inheritances/bequests, etc. - i.e, various legal operations requiring or driving transfer of a firearm.

So to sum it all up... I hope, LOL-

-Intrafamilial Transfer Form is a CA device used to move a firearm between qualified living family members (Both Intra and Inter state?). Add- does the Intrafamilial Transfer Form need to be used IN ADDITION to the FFL transfer on a gun coming in from out-of-state, or is the DROS alone sufficient?

-Operation of Law Form is a CA device used to move a firearm between qualified individuals due to an inheritance, bequest, etc. (Both Intra and Inter state?).

-Any out-of-state transfer OF ANY KIND must go through an FFL and be transferred (DROS'd) to the CA resident and is a FEDERAL requirement.

Thanks for your patience and help!

halifax
06-18-2010, 4:30 PM
So to sum it all up... I hope, LOL-

-Intrafamilial Transfer Form is a CA device used to move a firearm between qualified living family members (Both Intra and Inter state?).

No. Interstate still needs to go throught a CA FFL by Federal law. No intrafamilial exemption on the Federal level.

-Operation of Law Form is a CA device used to move a firearm between qualified individuals due to an inheritance, bequest, etc. (Both Intra and Inter state?).

-Any out-of-state transfer OF ANY KIND must go through an FFL and be transferred (DROS'd) to the CA resident and is a FEDERAL requirement.

Thanks for your patience and help!

Mssr. Eleganté
06-18-2010, 8:05 PM
..Add- does the Intrafamilial Transfer Form need to be used IN ADDITION to the FFL transfer on a gun coming in from out-of-state, or is the DROS alone sufficient?

If you do the transfer through a California licensed dealer then you do not have to send in the Op-Law/Intra-Familial form. That form is only used in situations where you are allowed to skip the FFL transfer.


-Any out-of-state transfer OF ANY KIND must go through an FFL and be transferred (DROS'd) to the CA resident and is a FEDERAL requirement.

There is a "bequest or intestate succession" exemption to the Federal FFL transfer requirements. So if somebody out of state dies and leaves a firearm to you in their will or any of their firearms pass to you via the rules of intestate succession, then those firearms could be transfered directly to you from out of state. This is because of the Federal "bequest or intestate succession" exemption combined with the California "Operation of Law" exemption.

crackerman
06-18-2010, 8:09 PM
Question on the intra familiial part, how far does that extend? Do step and in-law parents count?

halifax
06-18-2010, 8:27 PM
Question on the intra familiial part, how far does that extend? Do step and in-law parents count?

CA only recognizes parent, grandparent, child, grandchild