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ZombieTactics
06-16-2010, 8:17 PM
Thanks ... and apologies ... in advance, where appropriate. :)

An AR pistol - otherwise completely "featureless" - requires a bullet-button because of the pistol-style grip, and cannot be used with standard capacity magazines holding +10 rounds. I think I've got that part pretty well drilled into my head.

Does replacing the pistol grip (again, it's featureless otherwise) with something like a paddle-style or hammerhead/exile grip allow one to then remove the bullet-button and use standard mags?

UserM4
06-16-2010, 8:19 PM
Then it would be a short barreled rifle no? Wait... once you DROS it, can't you drop 10 rd mags?

ZombieTactics
06-16-2010, 8:22 PM
Then it would be a short barreled rifle no? ... I appreciate your opinion, but ... why? Is there a law defining that a "pistol" have a certain kind of grip? It would seem that things like the Mare's Leg would be considered an SBR then, and they aren't.

Just trying to make sure I have a complete understanding.

ke6guj
06-16-2010, 8:26 PM
Does replacing the pistol grip (again, it's featureless otherwise) with something like a paddle-style or hammerhead/exile grip allow one to then remove the bullet-button and use standard mags?no it wouldn't. point being tht it would be argued that if the detachable magazine is not inside the grip, then it is an AW. You'd have to argue semantics to say that if there isn't a grip, then a law that prohibits a magazine outsdie of the grip would apply to a firearm with no grip.

But more importantly, if it has no grip, is it still designed to be fired with one hand? If not, then it becomes an AOW and you get to deal with the feds looking at you as well as CA.:eek:



Then it would be a short barreled rifle no? the OP did not mention putting a shoulder stock on it, so it wouldn't be a short-barreled rifle.

drclark
06-16-2010, 8:33 PM
A pistol is an AW if there is a detachable magazine well is outside the handgrip. Thus all AR style pistols need to have a fixed magazine ala bullet button to avoid AW status.

I do not think removing the traditional AR handgrip and replacing with a hammerhead style grip would allow you to remove the bullet button, especially if the gun was transferred as a "pistol" on a 4473/DROS.

I am not sure how CA AW law applies to an AOW. It pretty clearly defines what kind of shotguns, pistols, and rifles are considered AW's. There could be a gray area to transfer a bare receiver as an "other". Jump through all the hoops to declare it an AOW, then build it up with a forward grip and PG. In that case, I do not know if you could get away with running a true detachable magazine without BB. This also gets fuzzy since DROS only recognizes pistol or long gun and does not have a category for other.

There are a couple of threads on this is you search hard enough.


drc

ZombieTactics
06-16-2010, 8:46 PM
Is there a flowchart? (lol)

Grumpyoldretiredcop
06-16-2010, 9:35 PM
State law (AW) and Federal law (AOW) are not related in any way. They are independent bodies of law. Theoretically, a firearm could be an AW and and AOW - for example, if one could somehow manage to get an AOW stamp for an AR pistol (don't hold your breath!). It would still have to be equipped with a bullet button or similar device as otherwise it would be an illegally created AW. AOW status does not affect AW status. Installing a Hammerhead, grip wrap, or similar device does not allow an AR pistol to be equipped with a standard magazine release or allow the insertion of >10 round magazines.

No flowchart needed, and there are more than a couple of threads on the subject. It's been done to death.

ke6guj
06-16-2010, 9:44 PM
State law (AW) and Federal law (AOW) are not related in any way. They are independent bodies of law. Theoretically, a firearm could be an AW and and AOW - for example, if one could somehow manage to get an AOW stamp for an AR pistol (don't hold your breath!). It would still have to be equipped with a bullet button or similar device as otherwise it would be an illegally created AW. AOW status does not affect AW status. Installing a Hammerhead, grip wrap, or similar device does not allow an AR pistol to be equipped with a standard magazine release or allow the insertion of >10 round magazines.

No flowchart needed, and there are more than a couple of threads on the subject. It's been done to death.actually geting an AOW tax stamp for an AR-pistol is not hard to do. just get a CLEO sign-off or set up a trust and send in your Form 4 with $200. Wait 3-4 months and you have an approved AOW form 1 with tax stamp. Engrave the pistol with your maker info and slap that VFG on.

Exile Machine
06-17-2010, 5:00 AM
(Dammit Jim, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer)

Here's the relevant PC:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

[...]

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Based on this, a pistol grip replacement like a Hammerhead won't legally let you use detachable mags on an AR pistol (See especially PC 12276.1(a)(4)(D)). You could certainly replace your pistol grip with a Hammerhead if you like, but it won't let you toss your bullet button and run large capacity detachable mags like it will on a detachable magazine (featureless) AR-15 rifle.

You could argue that an AR pistol with a Hammerhead grip replacement doesn't have a pistol grip, and you'd be correct, but PC 12276.1(a)(4)(D) would still apply.

-Mark

ZombieTactics
06-17-2010, 5:34 AM
Thanks to all for your time and comments. I consider myself schooled.

gunsmithcats
06-17-2010, 6:17 AM
Hmm