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shopkeep
03-31-2006, 11:54 AM
OK so I know a few other people around here heard the news from 6172 Crew. Supposidly two guys were arrested at a Davis range. Was this Yolo Sportsman's Association? Does anyone know the details of this arrest?

Does this mean it's no longer safe or OK to use offlist rifles at ranges and we're stuck with shooting on BLM or Private Land until these go on the list? This is getting extremely confusing.

We wrote them and they said this is legal. The law says this is legal. So why is the DOJ and Law Enforcement suddenly deciding now it's not legal?

Please tell me this arrest just involves two morons who built up a rifle with a pistol grip AND detachable mag and not some poor off-lister with a fixed mag :(

EBWhite
03-31-2006, 12:01 PM
Remember, even going with a fixed magazine and a pistol grip, you are in murky water according to the DOJ. Now, we all know the fix mag kits fit the letter of the law but proving that could take you to court...

When going to a range, i'd recommend no pistol grip, no evil features and a detach mag. Bring the letter saying these are legal and a copy of what features make an AW. If you have that and the cop is not an idiot, you should be fine. I would like to hear the details of the arrest....

shopkeep
03-31-2006, 12:07 PM
Remember, even going with a fixed magazine and a pistol grip, you are in murky water according to the DOJ. Now, we all know the fix mag kits fit the letter of the law but proving that could take you to court.

I can't believe they're going to take us to court over every single little thing. I guess this is their way of "banning" these new AR-15 type rifles... frivilous prosecution.

If a pinned mag off-list FAL is legal, a pinned mag off-list AR-15 is legal.

If the Robison Arms M-96 is legal, then a gripless off-list AR-15 without evil features is legal.

Why are there any questions or room for debate on this?

Kruzr
03-31-2006, 12:10 PM
OK so I know a few other people around here heard the news from 6172 Crew. Supposidly two guys were arrested at a Davis range. Was this Yolo Sportsman's Association? Does anyone know the details of this arrest?

Does this mean it's no longer safe or OK to use offlist rifles at ranges and we're stuck with shooting on BLM or Private Land until these go on the list? This is getting extremely confusing.

We wrote them and they said this is legal. The law says this is legal. So why is the DOJ and Law Enforcement suddenly deciding now it's not legal?

Please tell me this arrest just involves two morons who built up a rifle with a pistol grip AND detachable mag and not some poor off-lister with a fixed mag :(
Remember that part of the letter about the 58 or 59 district attorneys? Being legal will get your case dismissed, it won't necessarily save an arrest. Cops aren't lawyers, if they think it's illegal, they can arrest you.

Stanze
03-31-2006, 12:11 PM
After you are cleared of all charges, sue for violation of your civil rights, take the money and move to Free America, buy firearms not designed by gun grabbers.

Just don't drop the soap before that happens!;)

rkt88edmo
03-31-2006, 12:19 PM
Without details of exactly how the rifles were configured and what happened it is pretty hard to understand what happened. Hopefully someone will post a clearer account.

Cue the Was (not was) music:
Hello Dad,
I'm in jail.
I like it here.
Its NICE!

TonyNorCal
03-31-2006, 12:23 PM
As Shopkeep said...

Details are needed...

Were these guys running a pistol grip + detachable mags? If so then I am sorry they got arrested but it's really their own doing. Complying with existing law isn't hard and while I am sure we can all agree that it sucks....we can also all agree that it's the smart thing to do. I have no doubt that out of all the lowers sold someone will go to jail because they fail to comply with 12276.1. Sad, but with the numbers involved it's likely inevitable.

Now, if they were arrested for running 12276.1 compliant rifles with either fixed mags and pistol grips OR detachable mags and no pistol grip...well, then it's cause for more concern...however, it's still not necessarily cause for that great of concern. An arrest is not a conviction. It's not inconceiveable that someone out with a 12276.1 compliant rifle could have an encounter with law enforcement who believe it to be illegal. I think this isn't likely and I wouldn't panic, but it is possible? Yes. I don't believe law enforcement has been notified of the current situation and it's possible for an officer to believe this is an illegal rifle. Again, I think that this would be infrequent enough to not be of concern (I'd still go shoot)...but it's a numbers thing...and even low low odds hit with enough in play. Thousands and thousands of hikers = 1 encounter with an angry bear.

So, if it was an arrest of a compliant rifle then hopefully the case gets tossed and while being arrested probably sucks...they won't get convicted. Now, if an arrest for a 12276.1 rifle didn't get tossed by a DA and actually went to court THEN I would start getting concerned.

I believe there are things you can do to minimize the risk of being arrested in highly unlikely event you are presented with a law enforcment officer who believes your rifle to be illegal.

1.) See my post up there in the stickies about documents.

2.) I think that it would be helpful to have a binder, professionally organized, with those documents in plastic.

3.) I think it would be helpful to UNDERSTAND and be able to coherently explain 12276.1 and the unlisted memo. Understand why your rifle is legal. Spend a few minutes practicing it if you have to. What would you say if a cop approached you and said 'this is an illegal rifle' or something to that effect. Of course, I would keep it simple also, don't overload someone with info and babble.


4.) Treat law enforcement courteously and respectfully. Flipping a cop an attitude is a good way to get arrested or get a ticket if you're 'on the brink' in his mind.

Does all this mean you won't get arrested if a cop believes it to be illegal? No. But might it affect his decision? Possibly.

I think that with documents, an understanding, and a good attitude you minimize the risk.

Surveyor
03-31-2006, 12:30 PM
I'm quite sure that the DOJ is taking some of their cues from this website, as well as others. When they pull crap like this range bust, we all talk about it with each other. It's like a political dirty bomb. The intent is to scare us, not to lock us up one by one. I've got five bucks that says somebody from their dept. is reading this right now, trying to measure our reactions and see what works. Remember, terrorists behead hostages on TV because they haven't been able to pull off another 9-11. They have to get as much attention as they can with that one persons death, since they can't kill a bunch of us like they want to. Same thing with the DOJ, they can't arrest us all since we're legal. So they bust some guys in a libtard area like Davis to scare us. It was obviously a fellow shooter that ratted them out. I have met plenty of limousine liberals in that town, who believe that only wealthy VIPs like them need to own a gun. Davis has congressmen and other politicos living there. I don't doubt that some of them are friends with Bill L.

Muzz
03-31-2006, 12:33 PM
Maybe they could put us all in the same facility. We'd all go to "Lower Jail" where we could bond, fraterinize, and discuss what the heck went wrong.

45Auto
03-31-2006, 12:37 PM
California is in a political backwater with a state legislature that is populated by aging hippies from the Marxist 60's. That said, I would not take an AR clone on which I personally had installed a mag "fix" to a public range in any of the urban counties in California. Hell, I won't even take my FAB 10 based rifle to the range without having the nice letter from the DOJ (which came with the FAB10 lower) in hand. Nor will I take my Roberti-Roos guns out without my bona fide Cal AW registration letter from DOJ which lists the serial numbers of the registered guns.
The whole field of AW regulation in California is a hopeless mess. Still, local LE is free to act on their own discretion in the matter. Until this whole matter of the off list lowers is settled, I would advise keeping the lowers under wraps and unbuilt.

DrjonesUSA
03-31-2006, 12:47 PM
We wrote them and they said this is legal. The law says this is legal. So why is the DOJ and Law Enforcement suddenly deciding now it's not legal?



No offense, but you do not understand the fundamental issue at play here.

The government in CA truly is an oppressive one. Yeah, yeah, they aren't herding us into gas chambers......yet.....but that does not mean that they are not in fact oppressive.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the people in CA government and government agencies are leftists; marxists.

They hate freedom.

Guns are one of the most powerful symbols of freedom because an armed man cannot be tyrranized or coerced. (Unless he is simply a gun-owning sheep, that is, who will cower to his government's threats.)

A gun owner does not need the police to protect him, he does not need the government to protect him, and that is 100% unacceptable to a leftist.

Make no mistake; the government, especially the CA government, views gun owners as a scourge to be eliminated.

All these stupid, useless and obviously worthless gun laws we have only serve to make it more difficult for law-abiding American citizens to own, buy and use guns, and also, and perhaps most importantly, they make it more and more difficult for young people to enter the sport.

The "law" could not matter less to the government; if they want to do something, they will, and no one can do anything about it and they know that.

After all, don't you need the government's permission before you can even sue them???

swift
03-31-2006, 1:10 PM
No offense, but you do not understand the fundamental issue at play here.

The government in CA truly is an oppressive one. Yeah, yeah, they aren't herding us into gas chambers......yet.....but that does not mean that they are not in fact oppressive.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the people in CA government and government agencies are leftists; marxists.

They hate freedom.


Most of the people I know in gov't are regular people just trying to do their job and pay their mortgage.

MrTuffPaws
03-31-2006, 1:19 PM
They hate freedom.

:rolleyes:

chickenfried
03-31-2006, 1:22 PM
All I know is, I'm not picking up the soap.

krazek
03-31-2006, 1:30 PM
Without details of exactly how the rifles were configured and what happened it is pretty hard to understand what happened. Hopefully someone will post a clearer account.

Cue the Was (not was) music:
Hello Dad,
I'm in jail.
I like it here.
Its NICE!

thats why yall gotta just sit on your hands and just be patient lol

rips31
03-31-2006, 1:30 PM
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the people in CA government and government agencies are leftists; marxists.
i'm glad you qualified this statement with the word majority.

Jicko
03-31-2006, 1:38 PM
I'm certainly not scared.

Most, if not all, of the places down here in San Diego are cool with these legal CA-ARs.

blacklisted
03-31-2006, 1:38 PM
We're all going to die. :(

Jicko
03-31-2006, 1:46 PM
We're all going to die. :(

Who won't.... just a matter of time.... :p

Wumpscut223
03-31-2006, 1:54 PM
Where was this story published? Who can validate the info?

shopkeep
03-31-2006, 1:55 PM
I'm certainly not scared.

Most, if not all, of the places down here in San Diego are cool with these legal CA-ARs.

I didn't use to be scared but that's changed now that there has supposidly been a bust at one of the ranges I use most often.

tenpercentfirearms
03-31-2006, 1:57 PM
We don't even know what happened if anything. I agree about the DOJ using scare tactices to get the hens all riled up. Just relax. To be safe, don't take a fixed mag rifle out to the range unless you are in friendly territory. Or if you have the money, do it and lets let the court battle begin. I don't have the money.

So until we hear further, why worry about it? I don't even know if something happened.

And Shopkeep you have always been scared. Just relax. You are too high strung. Take a deep breath, keep your lowers stripped, and you have nothing to worry about. Except that time you sort of mouthed off to Iggy, now he might be after you! :D I am just kidding. Seriously, relax.

6172crew
03-31-2006, 2:14 PM
Rumor is the dudes were shooting them as AWs. But I wasnt there and I have heard about Iggy and his threats.

shopkeep
03-31-2006, 2:21 PM
Except that time you sort of mouthed off to Iggy, now he might be after you! :D I am just kidding. Seriously, relax.

Hey man, Iggy walked into that one when he told us, "I'm just trying to protect the residents of California". He was really informative that day though, it's just too bad most of the information ended up being false.

I think it was once the group buys and high volume import of the lowers began that Iggy and others started really freaking out and pushing for the Category 4 concept.

grammaton76
03-31-2006, 2:27 PM
Just for anyone reading this thread who doesn't realize it's related to the other thread... Shopkeep did some follow-up. And I personally feel it's entirely possible that the original posters who said they'd been busted (a month or two ago), were actually DOJ plants or otherwise yanking our chains.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=260125

blacklisted
03-31-2006, 2:38 PM
Hey man, Iggy walked into that one when he told us, "I'm just trying to protect the residents of California". He was really informative that day though, it's just too bad most of the information ended up being false.

I think it was once the group buys and high volume import of the lowers began that Iggy and others started really freaking out and pushing for the Category 4 concept.

I wish I would have been there to see that, I missed it by a day. :(

I know what was said, but I wont say anything :D

kantstudien
03-31-2006, 2:54 PM
Rumor is the dudes were shooting them as AWs.

If that was the case, F'em, they are idiots.

RJ Dunn
03-31-2006, 3:18 PM
The sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling, sky is falling,He was masturbating,the sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling,You know what I just saw that they are now going door to door and confiscating all off list lowers. Don't bother looking it up and confirming it. Just run off and tell the rest of the sheep. Who needs facts.

swhatb
03-31-2006, 3:44 PM
When going to a range, i'd recommend no pistol grip, no evil features and a detach mag. Bring the letter saying these are legal and a copy of what features make an AW. If you have that and the cop is not an idiot, you should be fine. I would like to hear the details of the arrest....
ok, dumb question. if you have no pistol grip, then how do you retain the spring and spring detent for the selector safety. how do you get the weapon to safely function with out these:confused:

Stanze
03-31-2006, 3:47 PM
ok, dumb question. if you have no pistol grip, then how do you retain the spring and spring detent for the selector safety. how do you get the weapon to safely function with out these:confused:

check out this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28718

bwiese
03-31-2006, 3:47 PM
Except that time you sort of mouthed off to Iggy, now he might be after you! I am just kidding. Seriously, relax.

Hey man, Iggy walked into that one when he told us, "I'm just trying to protect the residents of California". He was really informative that day though, it's just too bad most of the information ended up being false.

I think it was once the group buys and high volume import of the lowers began that Iggy and others started really freaking out and pushing for the Category 4 concept.

Um, not quite. In fact if you'd been a bit more quiet at the SJ gunshow you might have heard Iggy say to Wes, in summary, that when declared as AWs and registered they could have evil features. That was "high volume" for Iggy already.

The crazy Cat 4 concept thing came later and may well have come from above Iggy.

Next time try not to interrupt a serious discussion between an FFL and the DOJ. It was Wes' *** on the line right there and he needed a clear head to think.

swhatb
03-31-2006, 4:00 PM
for those of "us" that understand the legal begal of the off-list lower situation, "we"'re fine. never judge a book by its cover--just like to never judge a story from what the cover portrays. the odds are if someone was busted they didn't understand the legal begal or did something to raise ones eyebrows give it time and everything will work out; we've got the court system to fight the category 4 to category 1/2 thing. take a deep breath and relax.

Ford8N
03-31-2006, 4:10 PM
Relax

Stay below the radar and you will be fine.

Jicko
03-31-2006, 4:17 PM
ok, dumb question. if you have no pistol grip, then how do you retain the spring and spring detent for the selector safety. how do you get the weapon to safely function with out these:confused:

Or this thread...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30661


Or duct-tape, or super-glue, or just a screw, or ..... (101 more ways...)

Jicko
03-31-2006, 4:18 PM
I guess, as we have always been saying here.... if you don't understand the law... and don't even care to read the "FAQ"... you really shouldn't purchase a "lower receiver"....

for those of "us" that understand the legal begal of the off-list lower situation, "we"'re fine. never judge a book by its cover--just like to never judge a story from what the cover portrays. the odds are if someone was busted they didn't understand the legal begal or did something to raise ones eyebrows give it time and everything will work out; we've got the court system to fight the category 4 to category 1/2 thing. take a deep breath and relax.

shopkeep
03-31-2006, 4:50 PM
The crazy Cat 4 concept thing came later and may well have come from above Iggy.


I completely agree 100% that the Category 4 thing has nothing to do with Iggy. He's just an LEO and a messenger. I think the Category 4 thing has to do with trying to prevent this from happening again. Their assumption is possibly along the lines that if they can prevent these from becomming fully operational AR-15s then most people will be discouraged and there won't be a big enough consumer base to get those out of state FFLs shipping in the goodies.

Iggy also told us at the show that the DOJ has no plans on banning FALs or M-96 rifles because they're not "Assault Weapons". Appearantly, AK and AR types are just inherently more evil than other semi-auto centerfire designs. Of course, given the harsh reaction to the off-list club I'm going to assume a ban on FAL types and other builds is comming in the future.

Anyhow don't bag on me because I made just one comment. I didn't even think it was that offensive... I was merely making a joke about the present situation and I guess Iggy doesn't have a sense of humor. It's not like I called Iggy a name or anything, I made a comment about the off-list situation and he didn't take nicely to it and blew up. Heck, I even apologized.

6172crew
03-31-2006, 5:08 PM
If that was the case, F'em, they are idiots.

I feel somewhat responsable for anyone who gets busted in my area. Playing devils advocate I would say from the sounds of things that the DOJ is going to pick one guy out and let him have it. The price of fighting this thing is out there in the 10s of thousands of dollars and I cant afford the bill so mine are stripped.:(

Now if we had the NRA argue our kit to the DOJ Id think we would win and maybe keep a poor bastard from having to sell off his guns to pay for a lawyer.

Bill- I cant see where it hurts anything to send in a letter and sample, if they say no then the NRA can fight it, if they say yes we have a letter saying the DA is outside the box. If these letters were available folks would have copies and the word would be which kit is approved and which one isnt etc. The guys who are in trouble etheir didnt know or didnt care. I think it should be a major topic around here but instead we hear more about where to get the receivers and whos willing to transfer the cheapest.:rolleyes:

The fact is Iggy says we cant just bolt these together and someone is going to go down for it.....right or wrong.:(

edited to add this link:rolleyes: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31260