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big al
06-16-2010, 7:38 AM
there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

cineski
06-16-2010, 7:48 AM
You don't want to send it back because you may get in trouble? How will you get in trouble? Just take it to UPS and ship it off.

NiteQwill
06-16-2010, 7:48 AM
I would keep it.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 7:53 AM
I would keep it.

You did not break any laws. The vendor did. I doubt anyone cares enough to make it an issue.;)

99urbansuburban
06-16-2010, 7:58 AM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

BKinzey
06-16-2010, 8:07 AM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

Are you saying you broke the law? If you ordered assembled 30 round magazines and they send them you are importing them and breaking the law by doing so.

What does your post have to do with the OP's question?


As for the OP, if you didn't knowingly order it you should be safe. If you feel uncomfortable you could keep it disassembled and use it for parts. If it still bothers you return it disassembled with a note explaining why.

Personally I don't think it's very likely you will be charged with a crime and it would be difficult to prove.

OleCuss
06-16-2010, 8:19 AM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

Yes, as the poster above noted, unless these will come to you unassembled as rebuild kits you're breaking the law. Call them and tell them not to send them.

Even if they are rebuild kits, if you simply assemble them you are also breaking the law. You can only use them to rebuild an existing standard (greater than 10 round) magazine.

Rob454
06-16-2010, 8:25 AM
If you are that worried about it call the vendor and tell them what happen. Ask then to send you the correct one you ordered and a self addressed UPS shipping sticker. Take the mag apart, put it back in the box then tape it up and ship it back. They may send you a new one and simply tell you to destroy the one they sent initially

Cali-Shooter
06-16-2010, 8:31 AM
there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

For future reference, if this happens again, you could keep the magazine, since you did not intentionally order it and the blame is on the shipper, but for this magazine it is too late already, since it is already dismantled by you. Better luck next time!

Ballistic043
06-16-2010, 8:34 AM
just put a mag block in it and use it.

OleCuss
06-16-2010, 8:37 AM
I don't think his having dismantled it is a problem. Since it was intact when he got it he would not have manufactured a new magazine but simply disassembled and reassembled it.

The only question is whether he imported it. I don't know for sure, but I don't think he imported it and therefore should be able to legally possess and use the magazine.

The problem I see is one of ethics. He likely got a more valuable magazine than he ordered or paid for - that would be my reason for returning it to the vendor (provided the vendor will pay for the return shipping).

FeuerFrei
06-16-2010, 8:45 AM
there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

Yatzee!
:D
Looks like you legitimately "found" it in the box.
I think that falls under don't ask don't tell.

paul0660
06-16-2010, 8:55 AM
I think that falls under don't ask don't shout it from the rooftops in a public forum.

That's better.

FatalKitty
06-16-2010, 9:20 AM
just put a mag block in it and use it.

this

bwiese
06-16-2010, 9:22 AM
Hmm. They need to know and if there's an infinitessimally small chance somehow 'someone' knew, the best procedure is to be in the clear.

Disassemble the mag immediately and send the mag back to the vendor with a letter (keep a copy) stating refusal to accept and that they sent in a currently- illegal product into CA.

CEDaytonaRydr
06-16-2010, 9:46 AM
Hmm. They need to know and if there's an infinitessimally small chance somehow 'someone' knew, the best procedure is to be in the clear.

Disassemble the mag immediately and send the mag back to the vendor with a letter (keep a copy) stating refusal to accept and that they sent in a currently- illegal product into CA.

Out of curiosity, what recourse would an out of state vendor be subject to as a result of a CA law? They're not CA residents and CA law enforcement wouldn't have any jurisdiction in whatever state their business is located in. Even if the vendor did break the law, is in enforceable?

I'm just asking hypothetically... :confused:

FatalKitty
06-16-2010, 9:53 AM
Hmm. They need to know and if there's an infinitessimally small chance somehow 'someone' knew, the best procedure is to be in the clear.

Disassemble the mag immediately and send the mag back to the vendor with a letter (keep a copy) stating refusal to accept and that they sent in a currently- illegal product into CA.

in the process scaring even more vendors out of dealing with Californians.

Ballistic043
06-16-2010, 10:03 AM
we have plenty of vendors catering to CA as of now. i dont see any shortage of AR15 magazines do you?. losing an incompetent vendor is not going to hurt the market or cause a shortage.

next thing you know, the media is going to spin off on the underground black market from out of state vendors willing to break the law. look how bad we already have it with the ever-elusive "Ca gun show loophole" nonsense. we do not need these jackasses adding rocket fuel to a pallet fire.

personally, i would block the mag (or send it back for a legal replacement) and send them a letter with whats on my mind...

Flopper
06-16-2010, 10:57 AM
Out of curiosity, what recourse would an out of state vendor be subject to as a result of a CA law? They're not CA residents and CA law enforcement wouldn't have any jurisdiction in whatever state their business is located in. Even if the vendor did break the law, is in enforceable?

I'm just asking hypothetically... :confused:

I'm pretty sure CA can sue the out of state vendor in civil court, but there are no criminal charges that can be applied.

383green
06-16-2010, 11:01 AM
I'm pretty sure CA can sue the out of state vendor in civil court, but there are no criminal charges that can be applied.

How can a state sue a party in civil court for committing a crime? That doesn't compute.

AMDG
06-16-2010, 11:24 AM
OP, keep them and use them. You have lawfully come into possession of standard capacity magazines. Congratulations on your good fortune.

Cobrafreak
06-16-2010, 11:28 AM
Frakin keep it! This is such a NON-question.

bwiese
06-16-2010, 12:31 PM
Out of curiosity, what recourse would an out of state vendor be subject to as a result of a CA law?

They're not CA residents and CA law enforcement wouldn't have any jurisdiction in whatever state their business is located in. Even if the vendor did break the law, is in enforceable?


YES.

Gawd I see this error repeated so often...

CA law has fairly direct jurisdiction - please read up on 'long arm statutes'. Other states do too.

Generally in such a case (outside accident, if pattern emerges) a cease & desist letter is sent. Future violations usually trigger civil penalties.
If they really wanted to make an issue, an arrest warrant/extradition could occur. (There's also 'full faith and credit' matters regarding other states' laws.)

If you don't believe CA has jurisdiction over other actors in other states and their products, see what happens when CARB catches a, say, Alabama vendor of car performance products selling into CA or even advertising in general circ. magazines without warnings "For off-road use only", or "Not legal for sale or use in CA on emissions-controlled
motor vehicles."

Similar issues are applicable in certain states regarding shipment of liquor to individuals, etc.

Bottom line: you just can't just stand outside a state's borders and ship in illegal products into the other state or you'll find yourself in trouble.

bwiese
06-16-2010, 12:32 PM
OP, keep them and use them. You have lawfully come into possession of standard capacity magazines. Congratulations on your good fortune.

Stop this bullsh*t.

bwiese
06-16-2010, 12:34 PM
How can a state sue a party in civil court for committing a crime? That doesn't compute.

Civil remedies are often used as part of enforcement of 'long arm statutes' rather than criminal sanctions. It's faster, easier and more profitable; arrests and extraditions cost money.

You might remember what DOJ tried to do to S&W for supposedly illegally shipping assault weapons (the Walther P22) into CA - S&W caved and did a recall.

383green
06-16-2010, 12:36 PM
Civil remedies are often used as part of enforcement of 'long arm statutes' rather than criminal sanctions.

Thanks. I didn't know that states could file civil suits.

ElkHunterSL
06-16-2010, 12:55 PM
Why are folks soo scared of this type of thing? Its not illegal to own hi-cap mags. Its only illegal to build or import. Seems you came into these without you intentionally importing them, therefore they are yours.

If your afraid then sell them to someone else in California because now that they are in the State they are free game, I do believe?

bwiese
06-16-2010, 12:57 PM
Why are folks soo scared of this type of thing? Its not illegal to own hi-cap mags. Its only illegal to build or import. Seems you came into these without you intentionally importing them, therefore they are yours.

If your afraid then sell them to someone else in California because now that they are in the State they are free game, I do believe?

JEEZUS H. KEERIST, will you PLEASE STOP propagating this crap?

John Sukey
06-16-2010, 1:02 PM
That's better.

I have got to agree. I wouldn't advertise this on a public forum, just use the bloody thing.
Unless you use it to commit a crime you are not in trouble. The cops are NOT going to come to your house and INSPECT it.

BKinzey
06-16-2010, 1:06 PM
If your afraid then sell them to someone else in California because now that they are in the State they are free game, I do believe?


Definitely illegal to sell or transfer them. A BIG No-No!

Fate
06-16-2010, 1:12 PM
Bottom line: you just can't just stand outside a state's borders and ship in illegal products into the other state or you'll find yourself in trouble.

Unless you're Mexico. :shifty:

munkeeboi
06-16-2010, 1:15 PM
I agree with Bwiese...someone has broken the law. It's not like he found it in the middle of the desert where it would make more sense. A mistake was made, He knew about it and it needs to be rectified. The last thing we need is for someone to get arrested for importing hicaps into CA

I guess it's akin to receiving stolen property, you may not have stolen it, but if you knew you weren't supposed to have it and told a public internet forum about it, then I'd say you are as guilty as the thief

The whole "you're not going to use it on a crime" is probably why we shouldn't have to use a bullet button either, right? It only takes a few to ruin it for the rest.

AMDG
06-16-2010, 1:16 PM
Stop this bullsh*t.

JEEZUS H. KEERIST, will you PLEASE STOP propagating this crap?

Bill, I know you're pretty sensitive about this issue, but I think an appropriate reply would be "This is incorrect because....." or "I disagree with this because...." Just calling BS on a post is poor form and adds to the confusion.

ElkHunterSL
06-16-2010, 1:18 PM
Why is it illegal to sell them? If you own a gun from 1995 with a hi-cap mag you can sell that, so why can't you sell these?

bwiese
06-16-2010, 1:19 PM
Why is it illegal to sell them? If you own a gun from 1995 with a hi-cap mag you can sell that, so why can't you sell these?

I was referring to your quote in your prior post.

munkeeboi
06-16-2010, 1:20 PM
not a crime to the recipient, but a law has been broken. You guys are only looking at one side of this.

If the shipping company somehow gets in trouble for this mistake, how many more companies will fear shipping into CA for fear of getting in trouble? We are making good progress and the last thing we need is a huge step in the wrong direction.

stitchnicklas
06-16-2010, 1:24 PM
Hmm. They need to know and if there's an infinitessimally small chance somehow 'someone' knew, the best procedure is to be in the clear.

Disassemble the mag immediately and send the mag back to the vendor with a letter (keep a copy) stating refusal to accept and that they sent in a currently- illegal product into CA.

also keep a copy of the shipping notice from when you ship it back to vendor ,send it requiring a signature,and make the vendor reimburse you

AMDG
06-16-2010, 1:24 PM
Why is it illegal to sell them? If you own a gun from 1995 with a hi-cap mag you can sell that, so why can't you sell these?

I'm not sure but I would guess that if you asked someone involved in its passage they would tell you some BS about reducing gun related deaths/crime, etc.

munkeeboi
06-16-2010, 1:24 PM
Why is it illegal to sell them? If you own a gun from 1995 with a hi-cap mag you can sell that, so why can't you sell these?

You can't sell Hi-cap mags to civilians in CA, PERIOD! The original owner can own them, assuming he owned them before 2000, but they cannot be transferred or sold in the state of CA. They'd have to remain with the original owner or sold as repair kits to be used out of state or to be converted to 10 rd mags for use in CA

ElkHunterSL
06-16-2010, 1:27 PM
Thanks for the clarification. My apologies for spreading FUD.

stix213
06-16-2010, 1:32 PM
Originally Posted by ElkHunterSL
Why are folks soo scared of this type of thing? Its not illegal to own hi-cap mags. Its only illegal to build or import. Seems you came into these without you intentionally importing them, therefore they are yours.

If your afraid then sell them to someone else in California because now that they are in the State they are free game, I do believe?


JEEZUS H. KEERIST, will you PLEASE STOP propagating this crap?

I'm actually really curious how ElkHunterSL is incorrect, because my reading of the law leads me to Elk's conclusion except for his last line about reselling them within the state (which would be clearly illegal). Here is how I read it:

The text of the law says "manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large capacity magazine" is illegal, but I do not believe the OP's ordering of 10 round magazines while inadvertently receiving 30 rounders rises to the level of illegal importation since there was zero intent to do so.

And since possession of high capacity magazines is already legal, I do now see how the OP couldn't just keep them.

Clearly the seller of the magazines is in violation of the law, but I do not see how the OP is under any obligation to return the high capacity magazines in this circumstance. Is there any legal precedent or anything else I am missing here?

AMDG
06-16-2010, 1:34 PM
Whether or not OP can keep them is apparently subject to some debate.

He can't sell them because of: "offers or exposes for sale".

tiki
06-16-2010, 1:58 PM
OP: I would go with bwiese on this one.
Is it really worth it?
If you ever get caught with it, only one opinion will matter, the prosecutor's.
I will agree that the law does not prohibit possession. And, I will agree that you didn't break the law by receiving the magazine which was erroneously sent to you. But...

1) You know it was illegal for the shipper to send it
2) It is in your possession
3) You have the opportunity to corrrect the error
4) You posted in a public forum.
5) No one that posted for you to keep it will come down and bail you out or pay for a lawyer.
6) There is a difference between "the letter" of the law and "the intent" of the law.

Is that magazine worth $10,000 in legal fees and a possible felony if you ever get caught? Seriously. Think about it.

... but I do not believe the OP's ordering of 10 round magazines while inadvertently receiving 30 rounders rises to the level of illegal importation since there was zero intent to do so.

Since when does "intent" determine whether or not you get charged? I think in a court, #3 above may come into play. You had the opportunity to correct the mistake, but you didn't, so, at that point you could become an importer.

AMDG
06-16-2010, 2:25 PM
I think in a court, #3 above may come into play. You had the opportunity to correct the mistake, but you didn't, so, at that point you could become an importer.

I don't think that works. If that were true then he would become an importer until he corrects the problem and once an importer always an importer. The net result is importation without intent, which doesn't stick unless 12020(a)(2) is a public welfare offense or otherwise subject to strict liability, which I don't think it is.

dieselcarpenter
06-16-2010, 2:37 PM
In my opinnion F all this talk about shipping it back, all freedom begins with a simple act of defiance, if they dont know and arent asking for it back load it up and secretley stash it for use in the collapse, then shut up and count your blessings.

I guess if you feel so bad about it, you should turn it in to the police for proper disposal and report the vendor while your at it. Then go caress your bullet button and still consider yourself a free man. jeez!


:banghead:

Glock22Fan
06-16-2010, 2:46 PM
I'd have STFU in the first place and not posted anything here. Then I'd've decided what was legal and what was not, and taken action quietly accordingly.

tiki
06-16-2010, 3:21 PM
I don't think that works. If that were true then he would become an importer until he corrects the problem and once an importer always an importer. The net result is importation without intent, which doesn't stick unless 12020(a)(2) is a public welfare offense or otherwise subject to strict liability, which I don't think it is.

The law doesn't list an exemption for unintentional importation. Importation is importation. However, if he sends it back, then there is no reason to prosecute him. It was sent by accident, he noticed it, and he corrected it.

If your bank makes an error and deposits $50,000 in your bank account and you see it there and yank it out, do you think that makes it legal to keep? You didn't ask for the money. It's your account.

We can all argue this back and forth all day long. At the end of the day, neither your opinion nor mine will matter. What matters is what the OP does and if anyone ever finds out. What if the shipper realizes the mistake in two weeks and contacts the DOJ? Now what? Is it worth it to you? Not me. If the OP had remained silent, then he only had to worry about the shipper saying anything. But, he chose to post this in the forum, so that sort of changes things a little.
Personally, at best, this is a grey area. I don't like grey areas. I especially don't like grey areas with a paper trail. If it was me, that magazine would have left the same day it got there. If someone left one on a bench at the range or if I found one in the parking lot, different story. Paper trail? No way. Paper trail and posted on a public forum? Hell effen no.

Bill Carson
06-16-2010, 3:23 PM
The weekly hi-cap magazine post. Yawn.

adamsreeftank
06-16-2010, 3:41 PM
Your mistake was not starting your post with:

"this is theoretical, but what would happin if..." or "I have a friend who..."

Seriously, I would listen to Bwiese. It is really not worth the legal risk over a single mag.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:04 PM
JEEZUS H. KEERIST, will you PLEASE STOP propagating this crap?

I think he is right. If I stumbled onto one on a hiking trail would it be illegal to keep it? I can see the ethical side as it pertains to putting the vendor in jeopardy but I think he is legally in the clear.

Can you tell me what law says otherwise?

He did not "cause" it to be imported. He ordered a smaller one.

OP, did you check to make sure it doesn't just look like the standard cap mag?

dwh100
06-16-2010, 4:05 PM
Just send the darn mag back for exchange of a 10rd mag, with a letter of explanation. Neither the shipper nor you need the hassle of dealing with DOJ flunkies trying to enforce stupid CA laws! CYA and smile as you walk the high road.:D

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:06 PM
But if you use it for self defense?

I have got to agree. I wouldn't advertise this on a public forum, just use the bloody thing.
Unless you use it to commit a crime you are not in trouble. The cops are NOT going to come to your house and INSPECT it.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:13 PM
Agreed. But I am talking laws not ethics. Do you deny that OLLs and BBs are circumventing the intent of the laws. You all seem to be quite proud of those.


not a crime to the recipient, but a law has been broken. You guys are only looking at one side of this.

If the shipping company somehow gets in trouble for this mistake, how many more companies will fear shipping into CA for fear of getting in trouble? We are making good progress and the last thing we need is a huge step in the wrong direction.

383green
06-16-2010, 4:15 PM
Agreed. But I am talking laws not ethics. Do you deny that OLLs and BBs are circumventing the intent of the laws. You all seem to be quite proud of those.

No laws are violated when a BB-equipped OLL is built.

A law is violated when a >10 round magazine is imported to CA (in most cases).

bwiese
06-16-2010, 4:18 PM
Clearly the seller of the magazines is in violation of the law, but I do not see how the OP is under any obligation to return the high capacity magazines in this circumstance. Is there any legal precedent or anything else I am missing here?

You can't participate in 'half a crime'. Importing hicaps is illegal.

The fact this was a mishap would happily result in a nonprosecution.

I'm getting tired of this crap "What if I found a hicap mag" or "What if I didn't intentionally order one" - you can tell what people are trying to get away with.

Let's fix the situation legally so we don't have to go thru this BS.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:19 PM
Say; "You do own standard capacity mags for this gun already don't you"; While looking the purchaser directly in the eye and nodding vigorously in the affirmative.

"In that case here is a box of old repair parts you might need."

You can't sell Hi-cap mags to civilians in CA, PERIOD! The original owner can own them, assuming he owned them before 2000, but they cannot be transferred or sold in the state of CA. They'd have to remain with the original owner or sold as repair kits to be used out of state or to be converted to 10 rd mags for use in CA

383green
06-16-2010, 4:21 PM
I'm getting tired of this crap "What if I found a hicap mag" or "What if I didn't intentionally order one" - you can tell what people are trying to get away with.

Not only that, but it's been coming up repeatedly for years (sometimes multiple new threads per week), and it's become really tedious. Makes me wish CGN had a button to automatically post that "Aw, jeez, not this **** again!" picture and then lock the thread.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:31 PM
I hear you, but as a relative newbe you should know that this community likes to maintain a squeaky clean persona. You will be mercilessly chastised by many, many, very senior members for coloring outside the lines. I understand their concerns, but I rarely join in. Just a word to the wise.:D



In my opinnion F all this talk about shipping it back, all freedom begins with a simple act of defiance, if they dont know and arent asking for it back load it up and secretley stash it for use in the collapse, then shut up and count your blessings.

I guess if you feel so bad about it, you should turn it in to the police for proper disposal and report the vendor while your at it. Then go caress your bullet button and still consider yourself a free man. jeez!


:banghead:

Meplat
06-16-2010, 4:36 PM
Besides, it's usefulness is compromised. I can practice all day long with 10 rounders. Where you really wan max capacity is in your save your life gun. But if you ever have to use it for that a hi-cap will just give you one more thing to have to explain.


Your mistake was not starting your post with:

"this is theoretical, but what would happin if..." or "I have a friend who..."

Seriously, I would listen to Bwiese. It is really not worth the legal risk over a single mag.

AMDG
06-16-2010, 4:50 PM
I'm getting tired of this crap "What if I found a hicap mag" or "What if I didn't intentionally order one" - you can tell what people are trying to get away with.

I don't think its fair to presume that people who ask this question are guilty of a crime or planning to commit a crime. The same could be said about anyone purchasing a rebuild kit or an OLL. The presumption that people will not act lawfully is how you end up with a complete ban (i.e., we should ban all guns because those who acquire them will use them in a criminal manner). Besides, if people didn't ask questions, we wouldn't have rebuild kits or OLLs.

The reason it gets brought up a lot is because it hasn't been settled, as opposed to rebuilds and OLL. People are trying to identify the legal lines here (not to cross them, as you suggest, but to be sure not to cross them).

bwiese
06-16-2010, 4:51 PM
The reason it gets brought up a lot is because it hasn't been settled,
as opposed to rebuilds and OLL.

Who says it's not settled to illegally import a hicap?

Only a buncha goons.

I and many others get tired of this noob crap

tacticalcity
06-16-2010, 4:53 PM
Now that you posted that it happened on a public forum you pretty much have to send them back. You just advertised to the world you're breaking the law. It is the equivelent of racing up to the CHP officer on the freeway, rolling down your window to get his attention and yelling "Pull me over buddy, I'm not wearing my seatbelt and just downed a six pack of Miller Lite!"

Obviously you knew it was wrong, or you wouldn't have posted it here. The course of action is pretty clear. You gotta return them.

Now, if the seller shipped the magazines in parts rather than fully assembled it would be perfectly legal for him to do so, and perfectly legal for you to keep them. You just couldn't put them together unless you already owned hicap magazines before and were using the new ones to rebuild worn out ones (meaning include a part from the old ones).

People get hi capacity magazines shipped here all the time, just they come unassembled and thus are legally considered a rebuild kit. So they don't put them together, or do so as a one for one replacement of a worn out hicap magaizne they already owned, they are perfectly legal.

Why would somebody want to do that? All kinds of reasons, most of which are both legal and ethical. One example would be that there are all kinds of schools outside California where they travel in order to train. They need those magazines. They take them apart again before entering California. Another is implied in the name. They have a worn out hi-cap magazine and they want to fix it. Finding individual parts for magazines is often not possible, the only way to fix that magazine is to order a rebuild kit.

So next time you order a gun online and the seller is sending the hicap magazines and doesn't have the lowcap magazines, ask him to strip them apart for you so its legal. Don't put them together, hang onto them until you have a legal need for them. Odds are you'll have an out of state trip, event or course to attend. Or maybe even the law will change in the future.

AMDG
06-16-2010, 5:06 PM
Who says it's not settled to illegally import a hicap

Clearly, I'm not. You must be missing the point (but I gather from your tone that you know that already).

In case you don't, think of it this way:

Settled: manufacturing a high cap is a crime.
Probing Question: is replacing all of the parts of a high cap that I legally own with parts from a rebuild kit considered "manufacturing"?

Settled: importing a high cap is a crime.
Probing Questions: if i receive a high cap in the mail (or from an FFL with my new gun) that I did not order or ask for, is that considered "importing"?

curtisfong
06-16-2010, 5:22 PM
Probing Question: is replacing all of the parts of a high cap that I legally own with parts from a rebuild kit considered "manufacturing"?


No.


Probing Questions: if i receive a high cap in the mail (or from an FFL with my new gun) that I did not order or ask for, is that considered "importing"?

Yes.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 5:29 PM
No laws are broken by OP when he received an unsolicited Hi-Cap in the mail, but there are those here who are preaching to him about the spirit of the law. It's a loophole, like OLLs & BBs. Just pointing out the hypocrisy and situational ethics.:43:


No laws are violated when a BB-equipped OLL is built.

A law is violated when a >10 round magazine is imported to CA (in most cases).

bwiese
06-16-2010, 5:30 PM
Clearly, I'm not. You must be missing the point (but I gather from your tone that you know that already).

In case you don't, think of it this way:

Settled: manufacturing a high cap is a crime.
Probing Question: is replacing all of the parts of a high cap that I legally own with parts from a rebuild kit considered "manufacturing"?


There is no law prohibiting repair of a magazine.
If - certainly over time - various parts were replaced such that
the parts were new, that's not manufacturing.

Hicap mag law is somewhat one of "law of conservation of count of pre-2000 hicap mags by make/model".

(Somewhat parallel example: rebuilding a near-totalled car with all new parts would still allow it to keep the same VIN# and license plate (all issues of salvage title etc aside.)


Settled: importing a high cap is a crime.
Probing Questions: if i receive a high cap in the mail (or from an FFL with my new gun) that I did not order or ask for, is that considered "importing"?

I'd say it was, and I'd say there's extenuating circumstanes given involuntary situation. But just because contraband magically appears doesn't mean you keep it.

Meplat
06-16-2010, 5:39 PM
Who says it's not settled to illegally import a hicap?

Only a buncha goons.

I and many others get tired of this noob crap

I get tired of hypocrisy, and noobs are the future of the movement. This forum is impossible to search.

Bill:

You need to calm down.

OleCuss
06-16-2010, 5:47 PM
It's really pretty simple.

Ethically it should be sent back and the vendor should pay for the return.

Legally, I'm not convinced. But given that at best it is iffy, it'd be asinine to keep it.

Send it back and be done with it!

I've got a lot of legally obtained and owned 30 round magazines for my RAW. But I've not used a 30 rounder in may RAW in years - I use the 10 rounders. Point being that the 30 rounders aren't all that important anyway. Heck, I'd probably sell most of mine if it were legal to do so in California.

383green
06-16-2010, 5:47 PM
No laws are broken by OP when he received an unsolicited Hi-Cap in the mail, but there are those here who are preaching to him about the spirit of the law. It's a loophole, like OLLs & BBs. Just pointing out the hypocrisy and situational ethics.:43:

In your post that I replied to, you stated that you were talking about laws, not about ethics. Now you say that you're talking about ethics instead.

I did not say that the OP broke a law when he received an unsolicited magazine; I said that a law was broken (it was broken by the sender).

Furthermore, it's not like OLLs and BBs. In the case of OLLs and BBs, no law is broken when one is made. In the case of large-capacity magazines, a law is broken by the sender (at least) and possibly also the receiver (depending on the circumstances) when a complete one is imported (except in limited cases that don't apply here). That makes them different situations.

Oh, for crying out loud, why am I replying to this thread? It happens twice a week, and it always ends up covering the same ground. Can we get this thread locked so it can fade into history before the next hi-cap thread is started, which should be on Thursday or Friday?

Meplat
06-16-2010, 6:11 PM
No.



Yes.

Cute! Yes it is considered importing but by the vendor, not the one that receives it. If he had asked for it then he would have "caused to be imported" and be guilty of that. But he didn't.

It is not illuminating to substitute personal concepts of prudence or ethics into a purely legal discussion. And veteran knowledgable Cal-Gunners acting like petulant children is not helpful.

I would not touch said Mag with a ten foot pole, way too much down side, but say that don't obfuscate with tricky statements or substate personal opinion for law.:43:

Shady
06-16-2010, 6:16 PM
if i got a high cap mag sent to me the LAST thing i would do would be go online and post a bulletin about it


use your noggin
and delete this tread

Meplat
06-16-2010, 6:28 PM
I have read many of your posts and know how you are an intelligent man. You know as well as I this is a diversionary argument. Usually a tactic used by those who have run out of cogent arguments. You can do better if you are following anything but blind emotion.:43:




In your post that I replied to, you stated that you were talking about laws, not about ethics. Now you say that you're talking about ethics instead.

I did not say that the OP broke a law when he received an unsolicited magazine; I said that a law was broken (it was broken by the sender).

Furthermore, it's not like OLLs and BBs. In the case of OLLs and BBs, no law is broken when one is made. In the case of large-capacity magazines, a law is broken by the sender (at least) and possibly also the receiver (depending on the circumstances) when a complete one is imported (except in limited cases that don't apply here). That makes them different situations.

Oh, for crying out loud, why am I replying to this thread? It happens twice a week, and it always ends up covering the same ground. Can we get this thread locked so it can fade into history before the next hi-cap thread is started, which should be on Thursday or Friday?

Lead-Thrower
06-16-2010, 6:35 PM
if i got a high cap mag sent to me the LAST thing i would do would be go online and post a bulletin about it


use your noggin
and delete this tread

Agreed. The fact that you posted about it on here shows that you knew something was not kosher. Therefore:

-Keep a copy of the original invoice for your records showing that you intended to order legal 10 round magazines.
-Disassemble the mags and send them back to the vendor with a letter describing your situation. Keep a copy of this letter.
-STFU

The End.

BluNorthern
06-16-2010, 7:00 PM
Scared of our own shadows...:(, I would have stuck it away and not said a word about it.

Cali-Shooter
06-16-2010, 7:06 PM
Agreed. The fact that you posted about it on here shows that you knew something was not kosher. Therefore:

-Keep a copy of the original invoice for your records showing that you intended to order legal 10 round magazines.
-Disassemble the mags and send them back to the vendor with a letter describing your situation. Keep a copy of this letter.
-STFU

The End.

^ THIS. ^ I was hoping for ppl to stop their posting on this so that it would fall down below and stop being btt'd, but so far it ain't happening. Mods should LOCK this thread, Lead-Thrower already gave the best course of action to the Original Poster to do. Stop BTTing this
:beatdeadhorse5: :beatdeadhorse5: :beatdeadhorse5: :beatdeadhorse5:

big al
06-16-2010, 7:24 PM
thanks for all the replies. i'm not interested in owning a hicap mag and i even don't want to keep it. i'm thinking of returning it dismantled asap. is there anything else i should do to" protect myself legally"? thanks again

Lead-Thrower
06-16-2010, 7:27 PM
Stop thinking about it and just do it. No need for any further posts.

Can the mods please lock this thread now?

DSA_FAL
06-16-2010, 7:29 PM
I don't see it pointed out before, but just to make it clear if you use those full capacity mags in a BB equipped gun, you have just created an AW. So, unless you have a registered AW, a featureless gun or grandfathered mags with which you can use your new mags to rebuild, there is no possible way to ever legally use them.

It's probably just easiest to exchange them from where you bought them for 10 rounders.

thayne
06-16-2010, 8:19 PM
I don't see it pointed out before, but just to make it clear if you use those full capacity mags in a BB equipped gun, you have just created an AW. So, unless you have a registered AW, a featureless gun or grandfathered mags with which you can use your new mags to rebuild, there is no possible way to ever legally use them.

It's probably just easiest to exchange them from where you bought them for 10 rounders.

Until the AW ban is over turned that is :D

Anchors
06-16-2010, 8:46 PM
Yes, as the poster above noted, unless these will come to you unassembled as rebuild kits you're breaking the law. Call them and tell them not to send them.

Even if they are rebuild kits, if you simply assemble them you are also breaking the law. You can only use them to rebuild an existing standard (greater than 10 round) magazine.

You can also use them to manufacture magazines that hold less than 11 rounds.

I don't think his having dismantled it is a problem. Since it was intact when he got it he would not have manufactured a new magazine but simply disassembled and reassembled it.

The only question is whether he imported it. I don't know for sure, but I don't think he imported it and therefore should be able to legally possess and use the magazine.

The problem I see is one of ethics. He likely got a more valuable magazine than he ordered or paid for - that would be my reason for returning it to the vendor (provided the vendor will pay for the return shipping).

Actually most 10/30 magazines cost $5-$10 more than standard capacity. A travesty to us, but when you think about it from a business stand-point they are adding more raw material to the production, costing time and money.

You can't sell Hi-cap mags to civilians in CA, PERIOD! The original owner can own them, assuming he owned them before 2000, but they cannot be transferred or sold in the state of CA. They'd have to remain with the original owner or sold as repair kits to be used out of state or to be converted to 10 rd mags for use in CA

You don't have to have owned them before 2000 as long as the means by which you acquired them was legal. (Say you found them in the desert as someone in a recent post did? Nothing in the PC about that.)

As for selling them as rebuild kits at a brick and mortar store and making the person swear they have legal high cap mags to rebuild them with....Rebuild kits could technically be sold at 7-11 if they wanted to, as there is also the lawful purpose and using them to create magazines with less than 11 rounds. I asked the owner of a well known shop around here why he wouldn't touch them and he said he didn't want some idiot using them to make illegal high-cap mags and then when he gets busted saying "Oh well I bought them at Generic Gun Store." Which seems pretty reasonable to me.

gazzavc
06-16-2010, 9:39 PM
Hide it under the mattress. Nobody will look there..................


Seriously, why in the world would you advertise that fact on an open public forum..

Daft if you ask me.

Pavel
06-17-2010, 2:44 AM
I am amazed at how many people in CA are so terrified of the Big-Bad Gooberment. Jeez, look what this state has done to people. The only way we are going to get back at the PRK is going to be through legal means, and the opportunities are beginning to appear on the horizon.

Even though the stupid Hi-cap mag law in virtually un-enforceable to an individual that has carefully read it and does not say the wrong thing, you might as well send it back now that you posted it all over the internet. Just use the one you found behind your washing machine last night instead....lol (joke)

SIP2000GLO
06-17-2010, 4:15 AM
I'm getting tired of this crap "What if I found a hicap mag" or "What if I didn't intentionally order one" - you can tell what people are trying to get away with.



Yeah, and I'm sure ALL the rebuild kits that come into this state are used for parts and not reassembled.

Gotta remember this board is full of kids running around with ARs hoping the end of the world is near so they can play Rambo.:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

tiki
06-17-2010, 6:36 AM
I am amazed at how many people in CA are so terrified of the Big-Bad Gooberment. Jeez, look what this state has done to people. (joke)
It's not a matter of being terrified or not. It's hassle and cost.

The reason I don't drive 85 mph down the highway isn't because I'm terrified of the police. It's because I don't feel like doubling the amount of money I send to Allstate every month. And, when some of you kiddies get out of school and start looking for jobs, you will start to see questions pop up on job applications and security clearance forms that ask if you have ever been arrested before and to explain if you have. When you are competing with 35 other applicants for a nice big fat paycheck at a fortune 500 company, explaining that you were arrested for anything isn't a plus for you. In this day and age, try putting down that you were were arrested for possession of a high capacity magazine, even though the charges were dropped, and see how many job offers you get.
When some of you get older, you will realize how stupid risking something like a career over a $25 magazine is stupid. If you do happen to "find" one and you can figure out a way that to convince yourself that's it's legal, then keep quiet about it, don't post on a forum and don't show your friends and tell people.

Big Jake
06-17-2010, 6:44 AM
there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

You could just put it in a trash bag and throw it out. Problem solved!

tenpercentfirearms
06-17-2010, 7:06 AM
Man, I think we might seriously be in trouble around here.

To the OP. You did nothing wrong. Do not worry about anything as long as you take positive action.

I would simply return the magazine. Don't make a huge deal over it, I wouldn't even take it apart, I would just simply call up the vendor, let them know they sent you the wrong product, and you want the correct product. If you start taking it apart, then you technically received it. If you don't take it apart, then you can claim you didn't even touch it or take it out of the package and immediately contacted the receiver to fix the mistake (with the exception of this huge public thread you created first).

Returning the magazine is simple and easy and there is no way in hell anyone anywhere is going to try and prosecute you or the seller because you did the right thing.

Now, in reference to the company who shipped it being the importer, how do you figure? Since they are sending them into the state, wouldn't they be an exporter and you the receiver would be the importer? Not sure? Well the DA might be willing to go after you to figure that one out. I know I have a large capacity magazine permit so I can import large capacity magazines. According to the logic here, I don't even need it since I am not the importer, but the guy out of state is. Which means I should start asking them for a large capacity magazine permit.

See how easily stupid I make this "You aren't the importer" logic.

Here is the deal. Sure it is true the state is going to have to prove you illegally imported or manufactured a magazine. You can claim "I found them in the desert and finding them isn't illegal." Do you honestly want to say this under oath in a court room with a straight face in front of a judge and jury? You found 10 PMags in the desert one day, yet the prosecutor has a receipt for 10 PMag rebuild kits you bought last year from callegalmags.com or where ever? You don't think the jury might not make the connection that you actually manufacturered those magazines after legally receiving rebuild kits?

Better yet, do you want to spend the money to defend this case?

I honestly can't think of anything more idiotic than planning or advocating a "I found them" or "the guys out of state are the importers" defense. Seriously.

Claiming you purchased them before 2000 is a good defense along with keeping your mouth shut. Claiming you lawfully bought them from an armored car company or an 01 FFL with CFD might fly if you had a receipt. Just saying nothing at all is great too.

"I found them in the desert" is so ludicrous that you are going to piss a cop off and he is going to arrest you. Then the DA is going to be pissed too and he/she is going to come after you as well.

Don't insult people's intelligence. It is much better to say nothing at all or better yet, just not break the law or even give the appearance you are.

Seriously, some of you need to check your head gear.

Meplat
06-17-2010, 7:10 AM
You could just put it in a trash bag and throw it out. Problem solved!

Preferably over Big Jake's back fence.:p

DiscoBayJoe
06-17-2010, 7:22 AM
Wrap it in Tinfoil (so that it can avoid the radio-wave detection), spraypaint the tinfoil cammoflauge using rustoleum (so it is undetectable by sight or radar), put it in a ziplock, and bury it in your back yard with the AR-15 that you have burried in this format as well. When the zombies or gun grabers come, you'll be OK.

I'm just sayin.

ElkHunterSL
06-17-2010, 7:41 AM
I'm with Pavel on this one. Many in this thread make it seem like the OP has robbed a bank and has hot goods just minutes from being tracked down by the FBI.

All of these comparisons like bank depositing $50K and other comparisons aren't even on the same level. Those comparisons involve being given something that is not yours, not a situation where you are in possession of something your legally allowed to own.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO OWN HICAP MAGS.

Being in posession is not a crime.

What crime has been committed by the OP?

Even posting about it here has caused the OP no harm because all he said was he ordered 10 round, got 30 and what should he do.

And even if some over zealot DA wants to prosecute how are they ever going to find his Calgun post on it?

If these mags were made pre 2000 and you've owned the gun pre 2000 then either send them back or keep them.

I highly doubt if your out at the range shooting the 30 rds and are questioned and provide the "owned since 2000" defense the cop is going to keep questioning you.

As for NOOBs.....weren't you all NOOBs once too? The purpose of these threads is to learn from experience and truth and I'm sure us noobs sometimes make mistakes but we gain experience and truth from reading and learning on these threads.

And when it comes to this specific thread I could care less about ethics and more about the law. Our Gov't supresses our Freedoms way too much so if I have an opportunity to "legally" own something the Gov't wishes I didn't well great. I'm not going to allow fear to dictate my freedoms and if the way the OP acquired these mags is legal then I say Great. I wish we all owned 100 of them so the next time we run into the Govt we can show them our Mags and give them a Big Middle Finger!

dieselcarpenter
06-17-2010, 9:34 AM
Amen, noobs on here are just folks with low post counts, not neccasseraly with low knowledge of gun culture. I could be a CG addict in disguise for all you know, an alter ego so to speak.

tiki
06-17-2010, 9:45 AM
What crime has been committed by the OP?


It's called "importation". Whether he intended to do it or not.


I highly doubt if your out at the range shooting the 30 rds and are questioned and provide the "owned since 2000" defense the cop is going to keep questioning you.


Really? My friend, you need to spend some more time out there or get around a little more. There is a whole lot that can happen to you when you aren't doing anything wrong. Trust me on that one.


As for NOOBs.....weren't you all NOOBs once too? The purpose of these threads is to learn from experience and truth and I'm sure us noobs sometimes make mistakes but we gain experience and truth from reading and learning on these threads.


Agreed.
One of the learnings from this post should be to not post information that can get you in trouble on a public forum. Whether or not a D.A. is sifting through the forum or not doesn't matter. It's just not smart to post things like that publicly.
The other learning from this post is that opinons vary. At the end of the day, nothing will probably ever come out of that magazine being shipped to the OP. HOWEVER, if, for some stupid reason, something did, then the opinions of other people will matter, and it wont be our opinions.
I've heard my fair share of stories of people getting busted for stuff because someoene rats them out. Either an ex, or someone they own money to, whoever. It doesn't matter.

Many people on this board know the IDs of other users. I meet people at the range a lot that tell me their user IDs. So, while a D.A. may not be trolling for people on here to arrest based on their posts, it wouldn't take much for a pissed off girlfriend who got cheated on to make a phone call to an uncle who is a cop in town and say that so-and-so just bought a 30 rd magazine and had it shipped in from another state. What are the chances of that happening? Pretty low. Can it happen? Yes.



And when it comes to this specific thread I could care less about ethics and more about the law. Our Gov't supresses our Freedoms way too much so if I have an opportunity to "legally" own something the Gov't wishes I didn't well great. I'm not going to allow fear to dictate my freedoms and if the way the OP acquired these mags is legal then I say Great. I wish we all owned 100 of them so the next time we run into the Govt we can show them our Mags and give them a Big Middle Finger!

Yeah, that's nice. Nobody is saying that he is breaking the law by possessing the magazine. We are debating the importation aspect. And, nobody has definitively concluded that there was no illegal importatation.
"Check with your local D.A." :)
The government doesn't say that you can't HAVE the magazine. What the government says is you can't IMPORT the magazine. Now, how did that magazine get here? Well, i'll tell you. It was sent by someone in another state to someone in this state. You can stick your big middle finger up all you want, but, that finger doesn't change the definition of importation. If, the very unlikely event ever happens where the OP is caught with this magazine, it won't be me, you or your middle finger that determines whether or not that magazine was illegally imported.
What we are saying to the OP isn't "you are guilty, go directly to jail, don't pass Go, don't collect $200."
What we are saying is that this is a grey area. Is it really worth the risk?
And, if you decide that you want to take the risk, albeit a small one, don't announce it on a public forum.

RideIcon
06-17-2010, 10:10 AM
Everyone remember, if you assemble, you broke the law, if you ordered 30 rounders and they came in, you broke the law, if you ordered 10 rounders and you got assembled 30 rounders the shipper broke the law and you now own legal 30 round magazines.
That's the legality side.
And in any of these situations, you keep the mags and do not open your mouth, because possession alone is NOT illegal!


*Don't keep that receipt with those mags that says you paid for and illegally received a product...*

tiki
06-17-2010, 10:54 AM
Everyone remember, if you assemble, you broke the law, if you ordered 30 rounders and they came in, you broke the law, if you ordered 10 rounders and you got assembled 30 rounders the shipper broke the law and you now own legal 30 round magazines.
That's the legality side.
And in any of these situations, you keep the mags and do not open your mouth, because possession alone is NOT illegal!


*Don't keep that receipt with those mags that says you paid for and illegally received a product...*

What's wrong with keeping the receipt? If they are legal now, then the receipt would prove "legality". And why keep your mouth shut if its legal?
Still sounds "kinda sorta legal" to me. (which is grey in color)

P.S. Nice Gun Facts pdf. I haven't seen that before. I really liked the "Bill of Rights, not Bill of Needs" part.

Meplat
06-17-2010, 11:04 AM
Hu? U kin job moor N 10 boo-lits N air? L, I, B!"

paul0660
06-17-2010, 11:07 AM
and you now own legal 30 round magazines.

You are either being sarcastic, or are just wrong.

N6ATF
06-18-2010, 9:37 AM
Specific or general intent crime?

shark92651
06-18-2010, 3:43 PM
If these mags were made pre 2000 and you've owned the gun pre 2000 then either send them back or keep them.

Why would a magazine that was just purchased be manufactured pre-2000? Why do you think owning the gun pre-2000 is a requirement for using a high cap?

RideIcon
06-19-2010, 6:24 AM
You are either being sarcastic, or are just wrong.

If you order cali legal magazines, and you receive 30 rounders in the mail, you did not break the law and you legally own 30 rounders, that is how that works.
I am not being sarcastic, and I am not wrong.

tenpercentfirearms
06-19-2010, 6:54 AM
If you order cali legal magazines, and you receive 30 rounders in the mail, you did not break the law and you legally own 30 rounders, that is how that works.
I am not being sarcastic, and I am not wrong.

So please tell us how that is not importation of a large capacity magazine, which is specifically banned. Why would the exporter be the importer and why wouldn't the person who received it not be the importer?

What you are basically saying here is if someone sends me child porn and I keep it, then I am not guilty of receiving child porn because I ordered regular porn. I know there is no ban on possession of magazines like there is on child porn, but it is still the same argument.

I would highly recommend everyone stop listening to these "found it" and "importation is not importation" folks. They really are setting people up for about the worst defense and run in with the law imaginable.

VictorFranko
06-19-2010, 7:20 AM
Agreed. The fact that you posted about it on here shows that you knew something was not kosher. Therefore:

-Keep a copy of the original invoice for your records showing that you intended to order legal 10 round magazines.
-Disassemble the mags and send them back to the vendor with a letter describing your situation. Keep a copy of this letter.
-STFU

The End.

Stop thinking about it and just do it. No need for any further posts.

Can the mods please lock this thread now?

Yes mods, Lead-Thrower has shared his opinion (twice) and therefore no one else should be allowed share theirs. :43:

bwiese
06-19-2010, 2:05 PM
Yes mods, Lead-Thrower has shared his opinion (twice) and therefore no one else should be allowed share theirs. :43:

Hmm, you do indirectly pose an interesting question: should invalid statements that can lead folks into trouble, posted on a privately-owned forum, be given sanction?

Cokebottle
06-19-2010, 2:18 PM
Too late....

You should not have disassembled it.
It was not illegal to receive the magazine, but it is illegal to manufacture one.

OleCuss
06-19-2010, 2:21 PM
I think he can send it back to them in the disassembled state. I think it was a good move on his part. In the short term he has converted it into a rebuild kit.

Now he sends it back and everything is nice and legal.

thayne
06-19-2010, 2:54 PM
So please tell us how that is not importation of a large capacity magazine, which is specifically banned. Why would the exporter be the importer and why wouldn't the person who received it not be the importer?

What you are basically saying here is if someone sends me child porn and I keep it, then I am not guilty of receiving child porn because I ordered regular porn. I know there is no ban on possession of magazines like there is on child porn, but it is still the same argument.

I would highly recommend everyone stop listening to these "found it" and "importation is not importation" folks. They really are setting people up for about the worst defense and run in with the law imaginable.
The difference is; possession of child port IS Illegal and the possession of a 30 round mag is not.

richzmn
06-19-2010, 3:39 PM
Too much drama. Call up the manager/owner of the store and say a mistake was made. Ask him to please send you the correct mag. He'll correct the problem on his end. Take the other mag, cut it in half and throw it in the trash.

Just buy your mags from riflegear or oc armory in the future. If it's a odd ball mag, the mags could be sent to them for conversion.

bsg
06-19-2010, 9:00 PM
hope this works out for you....

dantodd
06-19-2010, 9:03 PM
Come on guys. Don't you think that if this worked I would have already opened a magazine store that only sold 10 rd. magazines but when I was out of 10 rounders I'd automatically upgrade you to large-capacity versions?

Cokebottle
06-19-2010, 9:15 PM
Come on guys. Don't you think that if this worked I would have already opened a magazine store that only sold 10 rd. magazines but when I was out of 10 rounders I'd automatically upgrade you to large-capacity versions?
Do you take GPal? ;)

tenpercentfirearms
06-19-2010, 11:00 PM
Too late....

You should not have disassembled it.
It was not illegal to receive the magazine, but it is illegal to manufacture one.

So everyone who takes their pre-existing or "legally acquired" large caps apart and puts them back together is manufacturing?

If he isn't the importer, even though he clearly meets the definition of an importer (the act of importing or bringing in), then why would it matter that he took his magazines apart? I mean if we are going to ignore that the person who accepts the magazines is the importer, why not ignore those pesky manufacture terms too? :rolleyes:

Seriously, does anyone in here really not think you are going to be charged with importation since you are receiving the goods from out of state? If it was a mistake, you would send them back. The fact that you kept them, means you want to import them.

No way in hell I am voting to use CGF funds to defend a "someone sent them to me" defense.

tiki
06-19-2010, 11:11 PM
The difference is; possession of child port IS Illegal and the possession of a 30 round mag is not.

We aren't talking about possession. We are talking about importation. Who gives a crap if you are allowed to possess them. Last month, the magazine was in another state. Today, it's in this state. It got here by way of shipping. One person sent it, the other person received it. One is the exporter and the other is the importer.

thayne
06-19-2010, 11:15 PM
We aren't talking about possession. We are talking about importation. Who gives a crap if you are allowed to possess them. Last month, the magazine was in another state. Today, it's in this state. It got here by way of shipping. One person sent it, the other person received it. One is the exporter and the other is the importer.
This whole thread is pointless whats done is done. Whether he keeps it, destroys it or sends it back it doesnt matter. The illegal activity already occurred and no matter what he does that doesnt change.

Rob454
06-19-2010, 11:39 PM
Why are folks soo scared of this type of thing? Its not illegal to own hi-cap mags. Its only illegal to build or import. Seems you came into these without you intentionally importing them, therefore they are yours.If your afraid then sell them to someone else in California because now that they are in the State they are free game, I do believe?

Weather he came in possession of them intentionally or unintentionally, ITS the way he came to possess it is still a importation of a high cap mag. if I was presented with this scenario I would see it as this. The sender was guilty for sending it and when you received it as soon as you saw it and did not turn around tape it back up and put a return to sender on it you are just as guilty as the sender. its a stupid mag I simply dont see what the big deal of keeping it is.

Why is it illegal to sell them? If you own a gun from 1995 with a hi-cap mag you can sell that, so why can't you sell these?



Its illegal in the state of California to SELL or ASSEMBLE high cap magazines. The only way you can own high cap magazines for any weapon is if you OWNED the high cap magazines BEFORE the 2000 Assault weapons ban. THATS IT. You cannot go buy or make a high cap mag.

YOU are the ONLY legal OWNER of those high cap mags you bought in 1995 along with your gun. When you sell your gun you cannot sell the mags to the person you are selling the gun to. UNLESS they own the same high cap mags before 2000 AWB. you can only sell them 10 round mags if you have any. The only way you can sell the guy your high cap mags is if you break them apart and sell them the disassembled pieces. Now the ONLY way he can put those pieces back together is if he OWNED the same mags prior to 2000 AWB. He also has to own the same amount of mags. he cannot own two mags and you sold him 4 mag kits now all of the sudden he has 6 complete mags.

Either way Ive said it before. i think the OP needs to simply call the seller and tell them what happen and return the mag and get the one he ordered.

thayne
06-20-2010, 12:28 AM
He could get one of these and make it a legal 10 rnd mag http://www.sacramentoblackrifle.com/product_p/rad-revm-30rd-pmag-blk.htm

OleCuss
06-20-2010, 2:31 AM
He could get one of these and make it a legal 10 rnd mag http://www.sacramentoblackrifle.com/product_p/rad-revm-30rd-pmag-blk.htm

Technically what you say is correct. It would then be a legal 10 round magazine.

But he would still have imported a 30 round magazine - and that would be illegal.

Only smart thing is to leave it disassembled and send it back.

tiki
06-20-2010, 7:40 AM
This whole thread is pointless whats done is done. Whether he keeps it, destroys it or sends it back it doesnt matter. The illegal activity already occurred and no matter what he does that doesnt change.

Agreed. But, it's like receiving stolen property. If you find out it's stolen after you get it and you call the cops to report it, you most likely won't get charged with it. If you keep it and you get caught, then you are going to get hit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knows it's illegal to possess stolen property and it's not illegal to possess a std cap mag, but we aren't talking about possession.

colossians323
06-20-2010, 8:00 AM
I'm actually really curious how ElkHunterSL is incorrect, because my reading of the law leads me to Elk's conclusion except for his last line about reselling them within the state (which would be clearly illegal). Here is how I read it:

The text of the law says "manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large capacity magazine" is illegal, but I do not believe the OP's ordering of 10 round magazines while inadvertently receiving 30 rounders rises to the level of illegal importation since there was zero intent to do so.

And since possession of high capacity magazines is already legal, I do now see how the OP couldn't just keep them.

Clearly the seller of the magazines is in violation of the law, but I do not see how the OP is under any obligation to return the high capacity magazines in this circumstance. Is there any legal precedent or anything else I am missing here?


This seem reasonable and law abiding to me

colossians323
06-20-2010, 8:01 AM
I get tired of hypocrisy, and noobs are the future of the movement. This forum is impossible to search.

Bill:

You need to calm down.

Another reasonable statement

dirtnap
06-20-2010, 8:18 AM
Why would a magazine that was just purchased be manufactured pre-2000? Why do you think owning the gun pre-2000 is a requirement for using a high cap?

Ever own a HK 30 rd mag? They are all stamped with 94'

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 12:51 PM
What if the shipper realizes the mistake in two weeks and contacts the DOJ? Now what? Is it worth it to you? Not me.

Worse, what if the shipper finally does this enough times to get noticed (or turned in) to CalDOJ, the Attorney General decides to bring a suit, and in discovery they go through all past records and find the OP received one? You think the seller is going to withhold your name and address? Think again. THey'll squeal like a cornered rat. Even if you don't get convicted as a result of a second charge stemming from the evidence in discovery, your legals fees will make that a very, very expensive magazine to have owned.

I had a vendor offer to ship the hi-cap to my home while shipping the pistol to my FFL one--I said no thanks and bought elsewhere. I don't need to be made and example of. I am hoping McDonald v. City of Chicago will let me but those hi-caps one day, meanwhile I am a law abiding gun owner.

It's cheap and hassle free )mostly). I recommend we all do the same or we hurt our cause.

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 12:55 PM
This whole thread is pointless whats done is done. Whether he keeps it, destroys it or sends it back it doesnt matter. The illegal activity already occurred and no matter what he does that doesnt change.

Yes, but if he corrects the error there is a very high--near 100% probability no charges will be filed if it is later discovered by legal authorities (see post above as just one of the ways that could happen)--it was an honest mistake a judge would let him of and likely the AG wouldn't even bring charges--maybe ask him to testify at most (or an affidavit).

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Just buy your mags from riflegear or oc armory in the future. If it's a odd ball mag, the mags could be sent to them for conversion.

When I buy out of state, I just tell them to keep the hi-cap mag and either sub a 10-round one or give me a discount for the value and I buy separately. Most vendors who ship to CA already know to do this.

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 1:09 PM
Now that you posted that it happened on a public forum you pretty much have to send them back. You just advertised to the world you're breaking the law.

Not likely--the AG isn't going to start a suit based on hearsay in a gun forum to one person who received it by accident.

More likely, as I've already stated, is that seller might do this one too many times and come under the scrutiny of the Cal AG (noticed, turned in, whatever). Then during the pre-trial discovery, when records are searched (because the seller will try to come clean with all of it to minimize trouble and repercussions) the OP will be found to have received a hi-cap. The AG will likely not even charge him right away. He'll be questioned, hounded to testify perhaps under threat of prosecution, and spend more in time and lawyers fees than for any magazine ever.

It's a foolish decision to set oneself up to potential prosecution and legal harassment that could come tomorrow, next week, or a year from now or longer. Who needs that kind of issue hanging over them?

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 1:15 PM
if i got a high cap mag sent to me the LAST thing i would do would be go online and post a bulletin about it


use your noggin
and delete this tread

Ridiculous--you think the AG lurks here to catch one guy that might have received a hi-cap by accident and didn't return it? LOL. Not worth their time.

Now if they through other means find the seller and subpoena records, they'll uncover the OP whether he posted here or remained silent and he'll be in deep doo doo. He' ll probably cop a plea in exchange for testimony but might still get convicted with suspended sentence--bad juju. I am not sure if they have to find him in possession of the mag or just have proof he imported it illegally and kept it.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 1:26 PM
I am not sure if they have to find him in possession of the mag or just have proof he imported it illegally and kept it.
Possession is not a crime.
The crime is importation or manufacture.
The fact that the OP disassembled the magazines doesn't matter... POSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME.

The only POSSIBLE crime would be importation, and disassembling the magazines, or shipping them back to the manufacturer doesn't un-do what happened.

The OP did not ORDER the high-caps.
Whether the seller intended to ship a high cap, or it was a shipping mistake (someone grabbed a 30 instead of a 10/30), that is not the fault of the OP.

The OP has a defensible case as long as he has his invoices indicating that he had ordered a 10/30.


Those of you who are saying that the OP is guilty of importation....
So you're saying that is someone who has my address ships me a high-cap unsolicited, that I'm guilty of importation... and I have to ship it back?
Again... shipping it back doesn't un-do the fact that I received it... but being unsolicited, I did not intentionally import it.

diginit
06-20-2010, 2:05 PM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

Speaking of advertising on a public forum regularly monitored by the DOJ and LE.....:TFH:
What are you going to shoot them in? Got a reg AW or an SU-16?
By the way, Shipping notification is automated. You probably will not recieve them. If you do, You will have commited a felony and possibly stopped another vendor from shipping to Ca. I'm not sure if simply ordering them is illegal, But I know importing is.
Breaking the law is nothing to brag about. Especially on an Inet site.

To the OP,
I would send it back. You have an imported Hicap mag that you obviously did not have before the ban. The law has no clause for "accidental possession" and it also states that
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse"
Congrads of having the posture and brass to ask.

By the way, Don't give to LE for disposal. You will most likely be arressted for illegal possession right there. Like the mother that turned in her son's drugs. Remember that? If you decide to keep the mag in order to make a 10/30, Don't keep the reciept. It is evidence that can and will be used against you.

advocatusdiaboli
06-20-2010, 2:36 PM
PPOSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME.


You obviously didn't read my post fully.

The point was they have the bill of sale and shipping record as evidence he imported it and they were charging him with importation. My question was on evidence required to prove it.

I was wondering if that was enough if they couldn't find him in possession of it--paperwork error as a defense maybe? So my possession question was related to whether or not they need to show the contraband exists in his possession to show he imported it. It could have been mislabeled or the shipping manifest in error for instance among other defenses.

diginit
06-20-2010, 2:52 PM
I think Bill clarified this on a previous page. Possession is possession. There is no clause about accidental possession. Even if he FOUND IT. It is NOT legal to possess in this stupid state unless you found or owned it before the ban. Although the burden of proof IS on the state.

diginit
06-20-2010, 3:06 PM
Originally Posted by Cokebottle http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4486252#post4486252)
PPOSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME.


Unfortunately, It is.
Possession of a controlled substance. Possession of stolen goods. Possession of an open alcohol container in a vehicle. And, of course, Possession of illegal weapons. I could go on... Sorry, Comrade.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 3:11 PM
It is NOT legal to possess in this stupid state unless you found or owned it before the ban.
Please cite the PC for this.
Unfortunately, It is.
Possession of a controlled substance. Possession of stolen goods. Possession of an open alcohol container in a vehicle. And, of course, Possession of illegal weapons. I could go on... Sorry, Comrade.
Please cite the PC for this.

All of the thing that you listed, there is PC specifically prohibiting possession.
There is no prohibition on the possession of high-cap mags.
The prohibition is against selling, and two (of many) ways of obtaining.... specifically, importation and manufacture.

The PC also specifically exempts certain individuals, including cops, and armored car company owners.
Since PURCHASE is not prohibited, following the letter of the law, it is 100% legal for the owner of an armored car company or a cop to sell ANYONE a high-cap.
They are exempt from the statute, and the statute prohibits the SALE... it does not prohibit the purchase.

Sorry... on this one, you are wrong.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 3:25 PM
The point was they have the bill of sale and shipping record as evidence he imported it and they were charging him with importation. My question was on evidence required to prove it.
And if he ordered a 10/30, then his paperwork would indicate such.
As I said before... even if he ships the magazines back, that does not un-do the crime of importation... IF he can be charged with importation when he ordered 10rd magazines.
I was wondering if that was enough if they couldn't find him in possession of it--paperwork error as a defense maybe? So my possession question was related to whether or not they need to show the contraband exists in his possession to show he imported it. It could have been mislabeled or the shipping manifest in error for instance among other defenses.
The only thing the state would need would be evidence of importation or manufacture.
Evidence of manufacture might include the record of purchase of a parts kit for a magazine that did not exist prior to 2000, and then being found in possession... but in this case, possession would only be supporting evidence, and not the charge.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 3:26 PM
Then we also have the whole 3 year SoL issue....

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 3:28 PM
They may send you a new one and simply tell you to destroy the one they sent initially
In which case.... simply block it to a 10/30 and there's no question of legality.

glockwise2000
06-20-2010, 3:36 PM
I think this thread had a lot of FUDs going around about appreciating the illegality and acquisition of the said hi-caps and therefore this thread needs to be closed. Before someone gets in trouble. Big brother is watching.

diginit
06-20-2010, 3:40 PM
Please cite the PC for this.

Please cite the PC for this.

All of the thing that you listed, there is PC specifically prohibiting possession.
There is no prohibition on the possession of high-cap mags.
The prohibition is against selling, and two (of many) ways of obtaining.... specifically, importation and manufacture.

The PC also specifically exempts certain individuals, including cops, and armored car company owners.
Since PURCHASE is not prohibited, following the letter of the law, it is 100% legal for the owner of an armored car company or a cop to sell ANYONE a high-cap.
They are exempt from the statute, and the statute prohibits the SALE... it does not prohibit the purchase.

Sorry... on this one, you are wrong.

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

Sale from LE to someone not elegable to possess these mags is not legal. A LEO cannot sell them to just anyone. It's like me or you selling a pistol to a known gang member. No Go.

This may help you.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php

diginit
06-20-2010, 3:50 PM
Actually it is really simple when broken down to laymans' terms. If you had a HI cap mag in your possession before the ban in 2001. It is legal.
If you aqiured the mag in your possession after Jan 1st. 2001. It is illegal. No matter how or where it was aquired. It is legal to purchase rebuild kits for LEGALLY owned hi caps, but not to assemble a kit into a hicap.
Can It be ANY simpler? Possession before if owned 2001 is legal. Possession if owned after 2001 is not.
Even if you just happen to find it somewhere. Proof of timeline is another story.

diginit
06-20-2010, 3:56 PM
By the way, ANYONE can only sell something legally if it is is legal to sell. Providing the buyer is legally obliged to own it. LE is no exception. A police officer cannot sell me a hicap mag. Unless it is a rebuild kit. Then it is illegal for me to use it for anything except a rebuild kit.

tiki
06-20-2010, 4:01 PM
Possession is not a crime.
The crime is importation or manufacture.
The fact that the OP disassembled the magazines doesn't matter... POSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME.

The only POSSIBLE crime would be importation, and disassembling the magazines, or shipping them back to the manufacturer doesn't un-do what happened.

The OP did not ORDER the high-caps.
Whether the seller intended to ship a high cap, or it was a shipping mistake (someone grabbed a 30 instead of a 10/30), that is not the fault of the OP.

The OP has a defensible case as long as he has his invoices indicating that he had ordered a 10/30.


Those of you who are saying that the OP is guilty of importation....
So you're saying that is someone who has my address ships me a high-cap unsolicited, that I'm guilty of importation... and I have to ship it back?
Again... shipping it back doesn't un-do the fact that I received it... but being unsolicited, I did not intentionally import it.

I don't want defensible. I want no charges. Winning a defensible case still costs you thousands. That was my whole point to begin with. If you ship it back, there is no proof you imported it. You have a receipt for a 10 and you possess a 10. What are they going to do, call the shipper and ask him to admit to shipping it into the state? Nope.
Shipping it back gets rid of the evidence. It's like taking a bag of weed from your kid and tossing it in the Denny's dumpster. Yeah, you had it in your possession, but who's going to prove it?
If you would be ok with lawyering up and going to court to prove you didn't break the law because it wasn't what you ordered, then good for you. Me?
I'm not giving anyone any reason to even ask me about it, it's gone.

diginit
06-20-2010, 4:07 PM
Are you saying that there's weed in Dennys' dumster?
I'm sure it will be empty by morning.....:D

The DOJ letter posted above is really the best help I can give you. Straight from the whorses mouth...

383green
06-20-2010, 4:07 PM
Possession before if owned 2001 is legal. Possession if owned after 2001 is not.

You are mistaken. While most (if not all) of the events that would lead to you possessing a large-capacity magazine that you didn't have before the ban are illegal and possession may serve as circumstantial evidence that one of the illegal activities took place, the possession itself is not illegal. This distinction is subtle, but important. In the other examples that were mentioned (controlled substances, AWs, etc.), possession is specifically outlawed; there are laws for those things that actually contain the word "possession" in the list of prohibited activities. This is not the case with large-capacity magazines.

If you are standing on a street corner with a bag of weed in your hand, an officer can arrest you for possession of a controlled substance. If you're standing on a street corner with a 30 round magazine in your hand, though, you can't be (legally) arrested for possession of that magazine. You may be charged with importing, offering for sale, etc. if there's evidence that you did any of those things, but you cannot be legally charged with possession of the magazine, because there is no law which prohibits its possession.

diginit
06-20-2010, 4:17 PM
because there is no law which prohibits its possession.


This should be followed by, Providing it can be assumed that you owned it before the ban. Otherwise it is still contraban. How else could after you get it Jan 2001 if not by illegal means? Manufacturing, importing, or purchase. Lawers are notorious for this type of redderick.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 4:21 PM
By the way, ANYONE can only sell something legally if it is is legal to sell. Providing the buyer is legally obliged to own it. LE is no exception. A police officer cannot sell me a hicap mag. Unless it is a rebuild kit. Then it is illegal for me to use it for anything except a rebuild kit.
PC12020
(a)Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(a)(2)Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
Purchase or receipt is not listed.
(b)Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
Note.... does not apply.... 12020(a)(2) is null and void for the following:
(19)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(20)The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(21)The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
12071 refers to FFL/COE/Dealers
(23)The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.
(24)The lending or giving of any large-capacity magazine to a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the purposes of maintenance, repair, or modification of that large-capacity magazine.
(25)The return to its owner of any large-capacity magazine by a person specified in paragraph (24).
(26)The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.
(27)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.
It's a convoluted law, but the way it is written.... since "purchase" is not included (as it is in regard to other prohibited items... for which possession is specifically prohibited), it could actually be inferred that is is legal for an FFL to sell a civilian a high-cap, since the FFL is exempt from 12020(a). Now, if I operated a gun shop, I wouldn't want to be a test case.

It really does appear that "purchase" being omitted from the statute was an oversight, since "purchase" is mentioned in some of the exemptions.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 4:25 PM
This should be followed by, Providing it can be assumed that you owned it before the ban. Otherwise it is still contraban. How else could after you get it Jan 2001 if not by illegal means? Manufacturing, importing, or purchase. Lawers are notorious for this type of redderick.
It's not our fault that the law was poorly written.

The law seems to imply that possession is illegal, but it does not come out and clearly state that it is.

And again, with the 3 year statute of limitations, the state must not only prove that you imported or manufactured the magazine, they must also prove that you did so sometime after June 20, 2007.

Even if you did illegally import a magazine, if you saved the receipt that showed that it was received prior to June 2007, it is not a prosecutable crime.

diginit
06-20-2010, 4:40 PM
(19)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(20)The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(21)The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(23)The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.
(24)The lending or giving of any large-capacity magazine to a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the purposes of maintenance, repair, or modification of that large-capacity magazine.
(25)The return to its owner of any large-capacity magazine by a person specified in paragraph (24).
(26)The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.
(27)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.

Even though it in not spelled POSSESSION. I see the term all over this text. You?

383green
06-20-2010, 4:41 PM
This should be followed by, Providing it can be assumed that you owned it before the ban.

No, it should not. If you didn't own it before the ban then you may well have committed one or more crimes in obtaining the magazine, but the possession itself still is not prohibited. The possession isn't even necessary; if there's evidence that you imported or manufactured a big magazine after the ban (and within the statute of limitations), you can be charged for that even if you've already disposed of or destroyed the magazine. The possession is entirely irrelevant.


Otherwise it is still contraban. How else could after you get it Jan 2001 if not by illegal means?

If prosecution has evidence that you performed any of those illegal actions, they can charge you for that. Your possession might be used as a piece of the evidence that you committed one of those illegal acts, even, but the possession itself still is not something that you can be charged for.

Manufacturing, importing, or purchase. Lawers are notorious for this type of redderick.

The word is "rhetoric", and the lawyers are notorious for actually understanding the law. That's why we hire the best one we can when we're charged with something. If a DA charges you with the non-crime of possessing a big magazine, you want a lawyer on your side that will be able to understand this stuff.

Let me try yet another example:

Possession of a kilo of cocaine is generally illegal, because its possession is specifically prohibited, by a law which specifically lists "possession" as a prohibited activity for that class of substances. Just having it is a crime. It doesn't matter where, when or how you obtained it; having it in your possession is illegal. If you are caught with it in your possession, then you can be charged, and the prosecution doesn't need to know or care where, when or how you obtained it.

Possession of a high-cap magazine is not specifically prohibited. You can stand on the street corner with one in your hand without any fear of legitimate prosecution. Most (if not all) ways of obtaining one after the ban are prohibited, but the possession is not. Unless there's evidence that you imported or manufactured the magazine after the ban, there's nothing to charge you with.

In one case, possession is prohibited no matter how you got it. In the other case, the act of getting it after a certain date is prohibited, whether you still possess it or not. They're really just about exact opposites of each other (ignoring that manufacturing controlled substances is also prohibited, I think, but that's not the point).

If a cop pulls you over just after they saw you drive across the border into CA, and they see a big magazine lying on the seat, they might suspect that you just imported that magazine. Still, even if the possession is used as circumstantial evidence of importation, the possession itself isn't a crime.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 4:49 PM
Bingo Green.

Possession may or may not be supporting evidence of a crime, but in and of itself, it is not a crime.

383green
06-20-2010, 4:52 PM
Even though it in not spelled POSSESSION. I see the term all over this text. You?

There's no need to yell.

The PC that you quoted is a list of exceptions to the magazine ban law. Laws often are written this way:

A) Performing action "X" is a misdemeanor.

B) Section A above doesn't apply if "Y" is true.

Part "A" says what is illegal; part "B" is an exception to that rule, stating when the action in "A" isn't illegal.

The things you listed are all examples of part "B". The example of part "A" would be:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

If you do any of the things listed there (unless it's covered by one of the exceptions listed later), then you've committed a crime. Possession isn't in the list of prohibited activities; it is mentioned in the exceptions to the list of activities, though. For example, if you already possessed the magazine in the state before the ban, then it's OK to take it out of the state and then bring it back in without being charged for importation. If you did not possess it in the state before the ban, then the importation is illegal (but not the possession).

This is distinctly different from many other cases, such as in the assault weapon laws where possession is specifically mentioned in the list of prohibited activities.

Let me beat this horse a bit more:

1) Possessing a kilo of coke is bad. No matter how you got it. What you did to get it might also be illegal (and an additional charge).

2) Possessing an unregistered assault weapon is bad. No matter how you got it. What you did to get it might also be illegal (and an additional charge).

3) Possessing a big magazine is not illegal. You may or may not have committed a crime when you got it, but the possession itself isn't prohibited.

Have I gotten through yet? ;)

diginit
06-20-2010, 5:10 PM
Sorry, Didn't mean to yell. It was carryover from the last bold print.
So you mean to say that if I have a 40 rnd mag imported or assembled from a rebuild kit, And just because I have it in my possession, It is not possession of an illegal Hi cap Therefore not illegal to possess? LOL! This is just an example....I love the way words can be misconscrewed.... I still see possession written all over the PC.
Just not in the word "possession".

Sniper3142
06-20-2010, 5:13 PM
Actually it is really simple when broken down to laymans' terms. If you had a HI cap mag in your possession before the ban in 2001. It is legal.
If you aqiured the mag in your possession after Jan 1st. 2001. It is illegal. No matter how or where it was aquired.

This is so wrong on so many levels it amazes me.

:mad:

If you actually FIND a 30 round magazine while driving in the desert (near Plam Springs as an example) then you can legally keep and use it!

Period!!!

I DO NOT CARE if you don't believe people actually find stuff. They do and it happens. Finding a Large Capacity Mag is not importing, manufacturing, sell, offering for sale, or any of the other acts that are SPECIFICALLY listed as ILLEGAL.

And I could care less about what the intent of the California legislators was when they passed this POS. They goal was and is to whittle away at the 2A in this state and it has nothing to do with crime.

diginit
06-20-2010, 5:23 PM
This is so wrong on so many levels it amazes me.

:mad:

If you actually FIND a 30 round magazine while driving in the desert (near Plam Springs as an example) then you can legally keep and use it!

Period!!!

I DO NOT CARE if you don't believe people actually find stuff. They do and it happens. Finding a Large Capacity Mag is not importing, manufacturing, sell, offering for sale, or any of the other acts that are SPECIFICALLY listed as ILLEGAL.

And I could care less about what the intent of the California legislators was when they passed this POS. They goal was and is to whittle away at the 2A in this state and it has nothing to do with crime.

Sorry. You are mistaken. This was just sent to me from Bill Wiese.You know more about the law than him? Doubtful. Very few on this site do. I hope he doesn't mind the quote.

"Simply put:
You don't wanna import a hicap.
You don't wanna take possesion of or import a hicap after 2000 into CA if you didn't own it/possess it in CA before 2000.

All these people talking about "finding one" or "it's illegal to give but not receive" are wrong. There's generally no such thing as a one-sided crime unless the law is really written that way.

Now, from a practical standpoint, hicap mag laws are almost unenforceble if the person in question STFUs and the mag is not uniquely for a gun only after 2000."



Now, To stop the FUD! Even if you find it, It is still aquiring a hi cap after the ban.

383green
06-20-2010, 5:24 PM
So you mean to say that if I have a 40 rnd mag imported or assembled from a rebuild kit, And just because I have it in my possession, It is not possession of an illegal Hi cap Therefore not illegal to possess?

You committed a crime (specifically, a violation of PC 12020(a)(2)) when you imported and/or manufactured it. Possessing it is not a crime. It might be used as evidence against you; for example, the shipper's records that you ordered the kit, plus the completed magazine being found in your possession, might be used as evidence that you ordered the magazine parts last week and then assembled it since then. But still, you'd be charged with importation and/or manufacturing under PC 12020(a)(2). You could not be charged with possession, because possession is not prohibited.

LOL! This is just an example....I love the way words can be misconscrewed.... I still see possession written all over the PC.
Just not in the word "possession".

You're the one who's misconstruing words, though. Possession is not mentioned in PC 12020(a)(2), which is the actual chargeable offense. Possession is mentioned in the exceptions to the chargeable offense. These exceptions state when the chargeable offense does not apply (in some cases, because of possession before a certain date; the possession after a certain date is irrelevant, except to the extent that it may be circumstantial evidence of the chargeable offense).

IrishPirate
06-20-2010, 5:27 PM
If you are that worried about it call the vendor and tell them what happen. Ask then to send you the correct one you ordered and a self addressed UPS shipping sticker. Take the mag apart, put it back in the box then tape it up and ship it back. They may send you a new one and simply tell you to destroy the one they sent initially

sounds like good advice to me. but i'd tell them to send you an extra mag or two for your hassle, and for possibly involving you in illegal activities.

383green
06-20-2010, 5:30 PM
Now, To stop the FUD! Even if you find it, It is still aquiring a hi cap after the ban.

I see validity to both sides of the "found it" argument, and I'm not well-trained enough in law to definitively state which side is right. I do agree with Bill that it's at least questionable enough to be something not worth messing with (and especially not something to brag about online!). I'd love to see the "found it" debate die away, if for no other reason than it always turns out the same way... lots of yelling, with neither side changing its mind.

Just to be clear, I am not taking a side in this discussion about whether finding a magazine in the desert is legal or not. My sole intention in participating in this discussion is to try to stamp out a specific frequent misconception regarding possession of magazines. It's a pedantic point which is nevertheless important to understand.

diginit
06-20-2010, 5:46 PM
You committed a crime (specifically, a violation of PC 12020(a)(2)) when you imported and/or manufactured it. Possessing it is not a crime. It might be used as evidence against you; for example, the shipper's records that you ordered the kit, plus the completed magazine being found in your possession, might be used as evidence that you ordered the magazine parts last week and then assembled it since then. But still, you'd be charged with importation and/or manufacturing under PC 12020(a)(2). You could not be charged with possession, because possession is not prohibited.



You're the one who's misconstruing words, though. Possession is not mentioned in PC 12020(a)(2), which is the actual chargeable offense. Possession is mentioned in the exceptions to the chargeable offense. These exceptions state when the chargeable offense does not apply (in some cases, because of possession before a certain date; the possession after a certain date is irrelevant, except to the extent that it may be circumstantial evidence of the chargeable offense).

Guess you couldn't tell that was a joke...LOL

I agree it is not illegal to possess a hicap mag. All mine are preban and are legal. I use them in my SU-16. It having no evil features. But having read the PC, It not so clearly states that post bans are illegal to possess unless you are exempt as stated. It's the way the entire code is worded. There is no need to mention the word "possession" as it is otherwise defined. Those legal to possess a post and/or pre ban is spelled out all over the PC.

diginit
06-20-2010, 5:58 PM
As for finding it. Did you know there is a law that states when you find something of monitary value, (wallet, cash, camera, Etc.) You must turn it in to your local LE otherwise it is considered theft? If it is unclaimed in 2 weeks, You can then claim it as yours. You think you would get the post ban hi cap?
I'm just attemting to crawl through the FUD too...

383green
06-20-2010, 6:17 PM
But having read the PC, It not so clearly states that post bans are illegal to possess unless you are exempt as stated.

No, it does not. If it did, then the word "possess" (or some equivalent description of the act of possession) would be included in PC 12020(a)(2). Section 12020(a)(2) lists the prohibited activities, and several later sections state cases when 12020(a)(2) is not chargeable (including, but not limited to, cases when the magazine was possessed in-state before the ban date). You cannot be charged for mere possession of a magazine under PC 12020.

It's the way the entire code is worded. There is no need to mention the word "possession" as it is otherwise defined. Those legal to possess a post and/or pre ban is spelled out all over the PC.

Law does not work that way. If the law does not state that possession is prohibited, then possession is not prohibited, even if every possible way of gaining possession is prohibited. At most, the possession may be evidence of another crime having been committed. In the case of PC 12020(a)(2), possession is only relevant if it took place before the ban date, thus making PC 12020(a)(2) inapplicable. Possession after the ban date is irrelevant; you can perform importation and be charged for it even if you were never caught with the magazine in your possession.

383green
06-20-2010, 6:45 PM
As for finding it. Did you know there is a law that states when you find something of monitary value, (wallet, cash, camera, Etc.) You must turn it in to your local LE otherwise it is considered theft? If it is unclaimed in 2 weeks, You can then claim it as yours. You think you would get the post ban hi cap?
I'm just attemting to crawl through the FUD too...

You may have a point there. I'm not familiar with when turning something in is required and when it's not. Does the value of the item matter? If I find a nickel, am I required to turn it in? What about if I find a hundred dollar bill?

Just for the sake of this argument, I'll pretend that "finding" is not prohibited by PC 12020, and that there's no debate about that (JUST for the sake of this one post; I am NOT taking a side either way outside the context of this one post). So, if I find a big magazine in the desert, am I required to turn it in to LEO as a found item? Would it make a difference whether the magazine has a fair value of (say), a nickel, vs. (say) a million bucks? If I have to turn it in, would I have the stones to go back to the LEOs after the required amount of time and claim the magazine as mine by rights of finding it and nobody claiming it, and expect them to give it to me, and expect no other legal drama?

Having asked these hypothetical (and maybe even rhetorical) questions, I'll offer my opinion that taking a found hi-cap to LEO and then trying to reclaim it later sounds as inadvisable to me as bragging online about finding one. The legality is hotly debated with no case law to back either side up, the risk vs. reward seems to be thoroughly skewed in the "risk" direction to me, and I suspect that the whole thing may be made moot within a small number of years by post-McDonald litigation. I don't want to be the test case, and I believe that with a little bit of patience we may be able to restore the ability to legally obtain hi-caps without anybody needing to be arrested and charged to provide a test case. The smart folks have been finding ways to incrementally restore our 2nd Amendment rights without anybody risking prosecution.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 6:58 PM
So you mean to say that if I have a 40 rnd mag imported or assembled from a rebuild kit, And just because I have it in my possession, It is not possession of an illegal Hi cap Therefore not illegal to possess? LOL!
Bingo.
Possession is not illegal.
What is illegal are two methods of coming into possession, and 4 methods of disposition of high-caps including "keeping for sale, or offering or exposing for sale, giving, or lending".

It could be argued that purchase, or receipt of a gift, could make you guilty of criminal conspiracy.... but we're talking about a misdemeanor charge for the SELLER... it's not very often that criminal conspiracy charges are brought in a misdemeanor case.

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 7:04 PM
As for finding it. Did you know there is a law that states when you find something of monitary value, (wallet, cash, camera, Etc.) You must turn it in to your local LE otherwise it is considered theft?
If the monetary value exceeds $100.

Technically, it could be argued that a found high-cap is worthless, since it cannot be sold in the state.
Conversely, what is the black-market value of a high-cap? Probably no more than it's value in a free state, since it's easy enough to drive to a free state and illegally import them, or to buy a parts kit and illegally manufacture it.

tiki
06-20-2010, 9:58 PM
To the OP:
So, does that answer your question? Aren't you glad you asked? :-)
Ha ha ha. It's as clear as the Gulf of Mexico.

Meplat
06-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Those laymans' terms and your fuzzy logic are preventing you from comprehending the letter of the law.


Actually it is really simple when broken down to laymans' terms.

Meplat
06-20-2010, 10:30 PM
You could have found it at a range where someone else forgot it. And don't give my that "likely story" Bull skat because it actually happened to me.:p


How else could after you get it Jan 2001 if not by illegal means? .

tazmanian devil dog
06-20-2010, 10:31 PM
I hate to say this, but I am sick and tired of hearing the bull**** from both sides. The people who endorse breaking the law and the people who are so paranoid they are scared of even looking at a standard cap magazine. Can both of you just knock this crap off?


And to the idiot who just admitted in a public forum that he broke the law by ordering standard cap magazines online. WTF are you thinking? DOJ/ATF monitor this site all the time. It's their job, you just handed them a reason to find out who you are and to come knock on your door. Good Grief!!!! That wasn't a slam against the DOJ/ATF either, I deal with them from time to time because of my CCR license and they really aren't all the jack booted nazi's they are made out to be. But, waive the fact that you broke the law in their face and you are asking for it!!


GAWD!!!!!

glockwise2000
06-20-2010, 10:32 PM
:popcorn:

tazmanian devil dog
06-20-2010, 10:34 PM
One last thought. I really do love being a member of Calguns, but I have to say this. Some of you tell WAAAAAAY to much of your business online. Keep your dirt or controversial crap to yourself.

tazmanian devil dog
06-20-2010, 10:37 PM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

O.K., I can't help myself. ARE YOU A F***ING IDIOT???!!!!!! YOU JUST ADMITTED TO COMMITTING A FELONY ON A PUBLIC FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheesh!!!!!

Cokebottle
06-20-2010, 10:38 PM
O.K., I can't help myself. ARE YOU A F***ING IDIOT???!!!!!! YOU JUST ADMITTED TO COMMITTING A FELONY ON A PUBLIC FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheesh!!!!!
Misdemeanor... but still, ya... he's an effing idiot for even attempting to do it.

Meplat
06-21-2010, 2:59 PM
Maybe he is LE just seeing what will happen.

O.K., I can't help myself. ARE YOU A F***ING IDIOT???!!!!!! YOU JUST ADMITTED TO COMMITTING A FELONY ON A PUBLIC FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheesh!!!!!

Sleepy1988
06-21-2010, 3:03 PM
I wouldn't have posted about it on calguns, that was your biggest mistake.

;)

darkest2000
06-21-2010, 3:19 PM
I would've kept my mouth shut instead of spewing it all over the internet...some people...

RideIcon
06-21-2010, 10:22 PM
What you are basically saying here is if someone sends me child porn and I keep it, then I am not guilty of receiving child porn because I ordered regular porn. I know there is no ban on possession of magazines like there is on child porn, but it is still the same argument.

uh no, possession of child porn is illegal, possession of high caps is not.
how is it the same argument if POSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME

Meplat
06-21-2010, 11:09 PM
This guy was just trying to get advice on how to make a mistake right. It wasn't even his mistake. He is just trying to do the right thing. In my opinion all the people who say he is an idiot for putting his questions on line are those who would keep their mouths shut and do the Wrong thing.

One last thought. I really do love being a member of Calguns, but I have to say this. Some of you tell WAAAAAAY to much of your business online. Keep your dirt or controversial crap to yourself.

marcusrn
06-21-2010, 11:13 PM
Step away from the magazine and call 911, the police are trained for this sort of thing. Basically what you guys learned in Eddy Eagle NRA, "stop, step away and tell a grown up"!

curtisfong
06-21-2010, 11:51 PM
the police are trained for this sort of thing.

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

tenpercentfirearms
06-22-2010, 7:38 AM
What you are basically saying here is if someone sends me child porn and I keep it, then I am not guilty of receiving child porn because I ordered regular porn. I know there is no ban on possession of magazines like there is on child porn, but it is still the same argument.

uh no, possession of child porn is illegal, possession of high caps is not.
how is it the same argument if POSSESSION IS NOT A CRIME

Isn't it funny that I state right in the part they quote about me that I understand possession is not a crime? Still if you ordered regular porn and received child porn, would you claim you didn't really receive it, it was just given to you? Would you claim you didn't really import it, it was just sent by accident so you thought you were okay?

I know possession is not a crime. Importation is. If you get them sent to you from out of state, that is importation. You are the importer. Whether you meant to be the importer or not.

Now a better example is what would happen if you were sent a pound of coke in the mail. What would you do with it? I would turn it in and say, "look what I got in the mail". Would I be charged? Maybe, but probably not. Being an upstanding citizen would help my story and I could probably successfully convince local law enforcement I really received an unknown kilo and have no idea why.

If you returned a large capacity magazine that you didn't order, do you think someone is going to come down on you? Do you think they are going to go after the exporter? No, no, and no.

This is simple. Just ask for what you ordered and send back what you didn't. Don't take it apart, don't do anything other than ask for what you really ordered. Don't scare them with reporting them for sending you an illegal mag, don't act stupid, just send it back and do the right thing.

This thing really isn't that hard, but let's not pretend just because it doesn't say, "unintentional importation" is not specifically on there, that it isn't prohibited under "imports into the state". I would think no crime has been committed yet as you didn't ask for it and you immediately requested to make things right.

If someone mistakenly sends me an assault weapon in the mail, am I instantly a felon? Or because I box it right back up and send it back do I clear my name? When these things are completely legal in at least 45 other states, there is no way they are going to get you on a mistake in shipping from another party. Keeping it? That is another thing.

Slammy
06-22-2010, 7:52 AM
Just stash that bad boy and when its Zombie time break it out and put it to good use.

RideIcon
06-22-2010, 2:34 PM
I know possession is not a crime. Importation is. If you get them sent to you from out of state, that is importation. You are the importer. Whether you meant to be the importer or not.

what is it with you and kiddy porn?

Did you cross state lines with the magazine, did you order a high cap magazine, did you assemble a high cap magazine. If no, your probably in the clear.

If you placed an order for 30 rounders, you broke the law, make things right or keep no evidence of the fact.
If you placed an order for a 10 rounder, and a 30 rounder showed up to your door, and you didn't bring it across the state line, your fine.

All your explanations involve things that are illegal to own, and you would be committing a crime by not turning them in.
30 round magazines are legal in the state, many many people legally own many of them, and if they show up at your door unexpected, you too may legally own them.

Cokebottle
06-22-2010, 7:03 PM
I know possession is not a crime. Importation is. If you get them sent to you from out of state, that is importation. You are the importer. Whether you meant to be the importer or not.
The problem is, there's no legal way to fix it.

Importation is a crime.
IF you are guilty of importation because some vendor (or a relative ignorant of CA law) ships you a high-cap when you requested a 10-rounder (or in the case of the relative, didn't request anything, they just thought you might want it), then you are guilty of importation.

Unlike being in possession of an URAW where disassembling the receiver from the rest of the gun stops the ongoing crime, in this case, there is no ongoing crime.

Shipping the assembled magazine BACK to the vendor is just as much of a crime as receiving it, since you cannot offer to sell/lend/give in California (even to an out of state resident).

Regardless... if he's guilty of importation, disassembling the mag doesn't change that. "Making it right" doesn't un-do the crime, since there is no ongoing crime.
Shipping the mag back to the manufacturer doesn't change that.

By your logic, he imported it, therefore, he is guilty of importation.
There is a period at the end of that sentence.

advocatusdiaboli
06-22-2010, 8:23 PM
If you placed an order for a 10 rounder, and a 30 rounder showed up to your door, and you didn't bring it across the state line, your fine.

You received contraband and are liable for receiving it. You'd be granted a reprieve most likely if you sent it back--if you keep it you are culpable. Don't get it? Just substitute any other contraband for the mag--a pound of cocaine for instance. Still think you can keep it free an clear? If that were true, the drug cartels now have a way to ship drugs to anyone free and clear with no charges to the receivers (dealers). Wahoo! Not.

You folks saying there is no problem are not doing this out of a common sense analysis, but rather an emotional desire it was true. It's not. One day, the seller might get records subpoenaed an the OP's name might come up as having received a hi-capo illegally and he'll be questioned at least, maybe charged even worse, maybe forced to testify against the seller. The OP needs to ask this: do I want to keep it and live in a the fantasy world that it's okay and possibly get a rude awakening one day or not? Is it worth the risk? The OP's choice, risk, and consequences. Choose wisely OP.

Cokebottle
06-22-2010, 8:45 PM
You received contraband and are liable for receiving it. You'd be granted a reprieve most likely if you sent it back--if you keep it you are culpable. Don't get it? Just substitute any other contraband for the mag--a pound of cocaine for instance. Still think you can keep it free an clear?
The difference is, "any other contraband" is illegal to possess.
High cap magazines are not illegal to possess.
IF a crime took place, the crime was that of importation, and returning the mags won't "fix" that. It happened and there is nothing that can un-do that.

thayne
06-22-2010, 8:54 PM
You received contraband and are liable for receiving it. You'd be granted a reprieve most likely if you sent it back--if you keep it you are culpable. Don't get it? Just substitute any other contraband for the mag--a pound of cocaine for instance. Still think you can keep it free an clear? If that were true, the drug cartels now have a way to ship drugs to anyone free and clear with no charges to the receivers (dealers). Wahoo! Not.

You folks saying there is no problem are not doing this out of a common sense analysis, but rather an emotional desire it was true. It's not. One day, the seller might get records subpoenaed an the OP's name might come up as having received a hi-capo illegally and he'll be questioned at least, maybe charged even worse, maybe forced to testify against the seller. The OP needs to ask this: do I want to keep it and live in a the fantasy world that it's okay and possibly get a rude awakening one day or not? Is it worth the risk? The OP's choice, risk, and consequences. Choose wisely OP.

Why do people keep making comparisons to kiddy porn and drugs? What part of possession of a 30 round mag is not illegal dont you get? The "Crime" was committed when the magazine was imported. Its done. Nothing changes that.

So what if the law gets the dealers records? All OP has to say is yeah, I converted it to a 10/30 mag, tossed it in the trash, sent it to my granny in Phoenix. It doesnt matter. Possession isnt a crime!

otteray
06-22-2010, 9:21 PM
there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

Simple solution.
Smash the parts with a mighty sledge hammer until utterly and completely destroyed, then reorder the correct magazine.
Move on.

383green
06-22-2010, 10:04 PM
All OP has to say is yeah, I [...] sent it to my granny in Phoenix.

Wouldn't this be a case of "giving" a large-capacity magazine if you send the magazine from within CA? If so, then admitting to an intentional 12020 violation beyond the original unintentional one probably isn't a good idea. This might be a good example of why it is often recommended that people simply STFU when questioned by law enforcement. It's just too easy to dig yourself into a deeper hole than you started in.

Regarding the repeated misapplication of analogies between large-capacity magazines and prohibited items which have explicit possession prohibitions, are there any other kinds of items which have prohibitions on one or more methods of transfer yet don't have any prohibition on possession? Or, are large-capacity magazines in a unique class because of this? While I'm not taking any sides in the "found it" argument, I do feel that it's not helpful to make analogies between large-capacity magazines and materials for which possession is explicitly prohibited (such as illicit drugs, child porn, etc.).

(BTW, I haven't been getting email notifications for my Calguns thread subscriptions today... is it just me?)

Cokebottle
06-22-2010, 10:13 PM
Regarding the repeated misapplication of analogies between large-capacity magazines and prohibited items which have explicit possession prohibitions, are there any other kinds of items which have prohibitions on one or more methods of transfer yet don't have any prohibition on possession?
Doesn't "medicinal" pot have restrictions/prohibitions on the method of acquisition?

There are probably a number of things (particularly high-tech) that might be illegal to import into the country, but not illegal to possess.

Heck, for that matter, the way you framed the question, EVERYTHING has some kind of restrictions on certain methods of acquisition... such as theft, though technically at that point, the "widget" becomes defined as "stolen property", which is illegal to possess.


Leave it to the California Government to create a "special class" of inanimate object!

thayne
06-22-2010, 10:28 PM
Wouldn't this be a case of "giving" a large-capacity magazine if you send the magazine from within CA? If so, then admitting to an intentional 12020 violation beyond the original unintentional one probably isn't a good idea. This might be a good example of why it is often recommended that people simply STFU when questioned by law enforcement. It's just too easy to dig yourself into a deeper hole than you started in.

Regarding the repeated misapplication of analogies between large-capacity magazines and prohibited items which have explicit possession prohibitions, are there any other kinds of items which have prohibitions on one or more methods of transfer yet don't have any prohibition on possession? Or, are large-capacity magazines in a unique class because of this? While I'm not taking any sides in the "found it" argument, I do feel that it's not helpful to make analogies between large-capacity magazines and materials for which possession is explicitly prohibited (such as illicit drugs, child porn, etc.).

(BTW, I haven't been getting email notifications for my Calguns thread subscriptions today... is it just me?)

Haha good point. Best advise is definitely STFU and do what ever you're going to do with it.

383green
06-22-2010, 10:54 PM
Doesn't "medicinal" pot have restrictions/prohibitions on the method of acquisition?

Ignoring the federal laws for the moment, isn't "medicinal" pot by definition pot which was purchased in accordance with CA's medicinal pot laws? If a given mass of pot was purchased illicitly under CA law, then isn't it "plain" pot then (with a prohibition on possession), instead of the "medicinal" variety? I don't think that medicinal pot makes a clean analogy with large-capacity magazines; a person who isn't authorized to receive it is not allowed to possess it, either.

There are probably a number of things (particularly high-tech) that might be illegal to import into the country, but not illegal to possess.

I'm more familiar with export restrictions than import restrictions, so I can't think of any good examples that would compare well with large-capacity magazines off the top of my head.

Heck, for that matter, the way you framed the question, EVERYTHING has some kind of restrictions on certain methods of acquisition... such as theft, though technically at that point, the "widget" becomes defined as "stolen property", which is illegal to possess.

I was looking for example of materials/items whose transfer is as almost-thoroughly restricted as the transfer of large-capacity magazines, yet doesn't have any general prohibition on possession. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Large-capacity magazine law seems to be a bit unique in this manner. Maybe this is part of the reason that it's still such a hotly-debated topic among people who more often than not have detailed and correct understandings of gun-related laws: it's just different enough that attempts to find analogs in other well-understood areas of law don't quite work, and there are aspects of this area of law that just haven't been tested out in court yet.

Sometimes I almost catch myself wishing that the danged things would be fully banned, just to end this #(&%$!#$ perpetual debate! :p

tenpercentfirearms
06-22-2010, 11:26 PM
I don't think you can be guilty of importation if you don't accept the magazine. You receive the magazine, you immediately notify the sender, and you return it. That is not importation because you didn't order it and you didn't keep it.

If you decide to keep it, knowing that it is illegal to do so, that is importation.

I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

Like I said before, as a owner of a gun shop, if I receive an assault weapon and I didn't order it, I simply ship it back. Could that assault weapon be a plant by the DOJ to see if I will convert it to non-AW status? Yep. So I simply send it back and let them know I can't receive it. Am I guilty of importing an assault weapon? Nope. I didn't order it and I didn't keep it.

Now I decided to just make it a non-assault weapon like I decide to make it a non-30 rounder. I am still guilty of importation. I knew it was illegal to receive and I kept it anyway.

I am not quite sure why that isn't clear, but I guess that is why lawyers always have business.

383green
06-22-2010, 11:38 PM
I don't think you can be guilty of importation if you don't accept the magazine. You receive the magazine, you immediately notify the sender, and you return it. That is not importation because you didn't order it and you didn't keep it.

If you decide to keep it, knowing that it is illegal to do so, that is importation.


I think this is one of the most sensible explanations I've seen so far. My only sticking point is that I wonder if there's legal precedent that you haven't really received and accepted an item until you open the box, see what's in it, and decide not to close the box back up (i.e., I wasn't aware that you still have the option of not accepting something once the delivery agent has handed it to you and walked away). Is this a matter where there's a commonly-accepted legal understanding of when the "receiving" or "accepting" occurred, or is it just a matter of LEOs/DAs generally not prosecuting if you seem to have acted in good faith?

kel-tec-innovations
06-22-2010, 11:49 PM
I ordered 4 30rd from bravo company the sent them, but I have no received yet, but got shipping notifacation

Your openly admitting you broken the law for everyone to see:nopity:

ElkHunterSL
06-23-2010, 7:00 AM
I just love how all the non-lawyers here are making up definitions of importing, import, and importation.

I'm not a lawyer but I'd bet money what happened to the OP would not legally be defined as importation. And to those that claim there is some sort of illegal unintentional unwilling importation, where is your case law?

If my grandpa in arizona mails me a 30 rd clip he may have commited a crime but other then accessory to commit which is shady at best I haven't committed any crime and the magazine is mine to keep since possession is not legal.

Sniper3142
06-23-2010, 8:38 AM
I don't think you can be guilty of importation if you don't accept the magazine. You receive the magazine, you immediately notify the sender, and you return it. That is not importation because you didn't order it and you didn't keep it.

If you decide to keep it, knowing that it is illegal to do so, that is importation.

I don't think it gets much simpler than that.



How is keeping it illegal?!?

He didn't order an illegal product. The mistake was not his but that of the company that shipped the magazine. He has no LEGAL requirement to ship it back, destroy it, or alter it to only accept 10 rounds.

It doesn't get much simpler than that!

tenpercentfirearms
06-23-2010, 9:43 AM
If my grandpa in arizona mails me a 30 rd clip he may have commited a crime but other then accessory to commit which is shady at best I haven't committed any crime and the magazine is mine to keep since possession is not legal.I am amazed at the logic some of you have. What are you going to say when you get up on the stand and the prosecutor asks you, "Mr ElkHunterSL, were you or were not aware that it is illegal to import large capacity magazines into the state?"

ElkHunterSL has two options. "No, I did not know it was illegal." Which the prosecutor responds, "Actually on 6/23/10 at 7 AM you stated on Calguns you knew it was illegal and you knew your grandpa had committed a crime. Isn't that correct?" ElkHunterSL then refers to a last ditch effort, "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!"

Or ElkHunterSL answers, "Yes, I did know it was illegal to import a magazine." Prosecutor, "Then why did you illegally import a magazine from Arizona?" "I didn't, I didn't know my grandfather was going to send it to me." Prosecutor, "Well even if the court is to believe such an asinine excuse, why after discovering that there was a magazine that is illegal to import into this state, didn't you return it? Why did you import it anyway?" Again, ElkHunterSL at this point must gamble, "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!"

I guess ignorance of the law is an excuse now a days according to the Calguns lawyers. "I didn't know they were shipping me large capacity magazines, so that doesn't make me the importer."

Wow. Simply amazing.

How is keeping it illegal?!?

He didn't order an illegal product. The mistake was not his but that of the company that shipped the magazine. He has no LEGAL requirement to ship it back, destroy it, or alter it to only accept 10 rounds.

It doesn't get much simpler than that!

How does he prove he didn't order it? How does he prove he didn't know it was illegal to import? What happens when they go after the supplier and the supplier says they verbally agreed to send him a 30 and put on the receipt 10/30 as part of their operation? What happens when it is a DOJ sting and they are seeing how many people keep the magazines and then bust them for importation?

There are so many ways this thing can go south, unless you simply box it up and return it.

I just simply don't understand how so many of you can read the simple sentence, PC12020
(a)Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(a)(2)Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

By simple definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/importer), import is "to bring in (merchandise, commodities, workers, etc.) from a foreign country for use, sale, processing, reexport, or services". How are you not the one brining it in for use? Oh, it was the UPS/FEDEX/USPS guy right? :rolleyes:

RideIcon
06-23-2010, 11:22 AM
Simple solution.
Smash the parts with a mighty sledge hammer until utterly and completely destroyed, then reorder the correct magazine.
Move on.

thats the wrong thing to do

ElkHunterSL
06-23-2010, 11:52 AM
Responding to this post is like having an argument with the wife. Some can't seen to grasp the definition of an importer. I am not an importer if I didn't order or request a 30 round mag.

"By simple definition to import is to bring in...." If somebody ships me something I didn't order then how in the hell did I bring in anything? I didn't therefore I didn't import.

And since posession isn't illegal I have comitted no crime.

bwiese
06-23-2010, 12:55 PM
Responding to this post is like having an argument with the wife. Some can't seen to grasp the definition of an importer. I am not an importer if I didn't order or request a 30 round mag.

"By simple definition to import is to bring in...." If somebody ships me something I didn't order then how in the hell did I bring in anything? I didn't therefore I didn't import.

And since posession isn't illegal I have comitted no crime.


Jeezus.

1. Accidental importation is still importation.

2. If caught/charged, the accidental circumstance might possibly
assist in a defense.

3. If caught/charged and evidence showed you indeed disassembled
mag and returned it with "WTF, I didn't order this illegal crap" you'd
probably fare very well - as opposed to if you kept it.

greasemonkey
06-23-2010, 1:21 PM
Responding to this post is like having an argument with the wife. Some can't seen to grasp the definition of an importer. I am not an importer if I didn't order or request a 30 round mag.

"By simple definition to import is to bring in...." If somebody ships me something I didn't order then how in the hell did I bring in anything? I didn't therefore I didn't import.

And since posession isn't illegal I have comitted no crime.

It's more like arguing with your wife when you're incorrect, that's a very frustrating place to be. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Bwiese isn't just disagreeing for the sake of arguing; but that it's more of an issue of he's seen first hand people convicted for things they didn't know were illegal or things they thought shouldn't be illegal.

I think he's probably got a decent handle on what/how the high cap ban is written, what can lead to convictions and what will not, how the courts define "buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend". Remember, how us lowly peasants think the law should be interpreted means very little when the court sees it differently.

greasemonkey
06-23-2010, 1:29 PM
That's a lot to ask of some people...
don't act stupid, just send it back and do the right thing.

BlindRacer
06-23-2010, 1:34 PM
Responding to this post is like having an argument with the wife. Some can't seen to grasp the definition of an importer. I am not an importer if I didn't order or request a 30 round mag.

"By simple definition to import is to bring in...." If somebody ships me something I didn't order then how in the hell did I bring in anything? I didn't therefore I didn't import.

And since posession isn't illegal I have comitted no crime.

I don't know why, but I'll throw my opinion in.

I don't believe that this specific PC deals with what happened here on the receiving end. If someone is in trouble, then it is the shipper who imported/caused to be imported.

Then, does it say in the PC that receiving an illegally imported item is against the law? If so, then a law was broken. If not, then I don't see how a law was broken.

However, you still have the problem that a company sent you incorrect merchandise, and morally, I think that issue should be resolved, whether it was a barbie doll, or a magazine.


Personally, (could be wrong), but I don't see a law being broken on your end. And there was probably no criminal intent on the shippers end either. So box it up, send back your barbie doll, and request to have the ken doll that you ordered originally sent to you. Unless you really wanted a barbie doll in the first place, and you're just trying to find excuses to keep it so you can sleep at night.

383green
06-23-2010, 1:38 PM
If someone is in trouble, then it is the shipper who imported/caused to be imported.

The shipper may have sold or offered for sale, but he didn't import it; he exported it. There is no "caused to be imported" language in PC 12020(a)(2).

bwiese
06-23-2010, 1:42 PM
I don't believe that this specific PC deals with what happened here on the receiving end. If someone is in trouble, then it is the shipper who imported/caused to be imported.

The shipper may have sold or offered for sale, but he didn't import it; he exported it. There is no "caused to be imported" language in PC 12020(a)(2).

You generally can't have 'half-sided crimes', and out of state folks can't just rain in illegal products into CA.

Indeed the law is poorly worded for its intent, and the best recipe is to STFU.

Hicap mag cases are usually very difficult to prosecute, but some people in this thread will talk themselves straight to jail with their 'logic'.

macadamizer
06-23-2010, 1:47 PM
In addition to the importing angle, I would think a creative DA -- if he wanted to -- could probably also come up with a violation with respect to "buying" a high-cap magazine. OP sent away his money, and in return got a high-cap magazine. That sounds like a purchase. Now, the OP could argue that he didn't intend to buy a 30-rounder, only meant to buy a 10-rounder. But the underlying fact is that he sent away his money, and in return for his money, received a 30-rounder.

There is also a moral angle too -- if the 30-rounder he received is more expensive than the 10-rounder he ordered, aside from the illegalities, doesn't the OP have a moral obligation to not take advantage of a seller's mistake? Certainly if the seller had mistakenly shipped a 10-rounder when someone ordered (and paid for) a 30-rounder, the buyer would be on the phone in a minute because the seller ripped him off, even if accidentally. The buyer should return the mistaken magazine (at the sellers expense) even if the magazine wasn't illegal.

BlindRacer
06-23-2010, 1:49 PM
I think so much would be clearer, if in order for a crime to have taken place, there had to be criminal intent. The shipper didn't intend to send a high cap mag. The recipient ordered a sub 10 mag. Recipient received a high cap mag. Recipient sends high cap mag back for sub 10 mag. Problem solved, no one got hurt, and be done with it.

But are laws being broken by sending it back? Or would that not be an issue, since it's just returning un-ordered merchandise back to the seller.

383green
06-23-2010, 1:55 PM
You generally can't have 'half-sided crimes', and out of state folks can't just rain in illegal products into CA.

Since you quoted me, I'd like to know if I've mis-stated anything. My point was that the argument that the receiver didn't import the magazine is incorrect, as you've pointed out here. It seems to me that the receiver imported the item and the seller exported it. I still don't think that necessarily lets the shipper off the hook, as they did one or more of (give, lend, sell, offer to sell) to a person in CA. In the OP's case, I can see elements of the crime on both sides, even though neither side necessarily had any intent to commit the crime.

Indeed the law is poorly worded for its intent, and the best recipe is to STFU.

I certainly agree that it's poorly worded!

Hicap mag cases are usually very difficult to prosecute, but some people in this thread will talk themselves straight to jail with their 'logic'.

I also agree about people talking their way straight into jail!

Just in case it's unclear, I'm not in any way trying to search for loopholes and/or advocate taking advantage of them. I'm just trying to participate in stomping on incorrect statements that I see. I do agree with your suggestion that somebody in the OP's situation should promptly send the magazine back to the shipper while stating that it's the wrong item and they can't legally receive it, and that they should also STFU about it all on public forums.

383green
06-23-2010, 2:02 PM
In addition to the importing angle, I would think a creative DA -- if he wanted to -- could probably also come up with a violation with respect to "buying" a high-cap magazine.

I think that hypothetical DA would be so creative that they'd be making up their own new laws: "buying" is not one of the prohibited activities in 12020(a)(2).

Regarding the assertion that in general there can't be "half-sided" crimes (and I'm not arguing against that assertion), how does that square with a law that was so poorly written as to only specifically outlaw one half of a prohibited transfer? Is there any legal grounds to charge a buyer with selling? Or, could the buyer only be charged with conspiracy to commit the specifically-prohibited crime that the other guy committed? I'd be surprised if this is the first badly-written law, and I wonder how such inconsistencies are properly resolved.

ElkHunterSL
06-23-2010, 2:04 PM
Let me reiterate that if I had been the OP I wouldn't have started this thread but since it was started my comments were made based upon one situation "ordered 10 round received 30". We can all assume all day long but if the penal code doesn't cover this situation it it a legal loophole any competent attorney should be able to get his client through.

Is it possible that you will get charged? Maybe.but highly unlikely. I don't see DAs going around wasting $ to charge an upstanding citizen with only a hicap mag charge for one or two magazines. Maybe if you committed other crimes they would add it on, but charging you with only this..highly unlikely.

HowardW56
06-23-2010, 2:05 PM
the best recipe is to STFU.

but some people in this thread will talk themselves straight to jail with their 'logic'.


:iagree:

Cokebottle
06-23-2010, 6:46 PM
In addition to the importing angle, I would think a creative DA -- if he wanted to -- could probably also come up with a violation with respect to "buying" a high-cap magazine.
Within the wording of the law, "buying" is not illegal, unless that "buying" also includes "importation".

That's within the wording of the law... you are still an accomplice (to a misdemeanor).

tenpercentfirearms
06-23-2010, 9:53 PM
Responding to this post is like having an argument with the wife. Some can't seen to grasp the definition of an importer. I am not an importer if I didn't order or request a 30 round mag.

"By simple definition to import is to bring in...." If somebody ships me something I didn't order then how in the hell did I bring in anything? I didn't therefore I didn't import.

And since posession isn't illegal I have comitted no crime.You did bring it in. You received it from out of state and you know you cannot receive magazines out of state as that is importation. When it was accidentally sent to you, you had no control over that. Turning it into the police or returning it to the shipping absolves you of that responsibility.

Knowing that it is illegal for you to buy large capacity magazines from out of state and having them imported in whether you personally bring them over the state line or have the UPS guy do it is importation. You know you can't have the magazines and you accepted them. You imported them. The seller sold them to you. You violated the penal code. If someone actually gave a damn other than us, you would go to jail.

Now if you were smart, you would just buy them complete from a gun dealer. They are allowed to buy and sell large capacity magazines and clearly purchase is not prohibited. Now finding a dealer to sell them to you is a whole other story. I still don't do it even though I am convinced it is legal.

adamsreeftank
06-23-2010, 10:24 PM
...
Now if you were smart, you would just buy them complete from a gun dealer. They are allowed to buy and sell large capacity magazines and clearly purchase is not prohibited. Now finding a dealer to sell them to you is a whole other story. I still don't do it even though I am convinced it is legal.

Now it's getting interesting! :popcorn:

383green
06-23-2010, 10:47 PM
You did bring it in. You received it from out of state and you know you cannot receive magazines out of state as that is importation. When it was accidentally sent to you, you had no control over that.

Agreed.

Turning it into the police or returning it to the shipping absolves you of that responsibility..

Your statement about buying from a dealer provoked me to go take another look at PC 12020. More on that later; in the mean time, I saw that sections 12020(b)(16) and 12020(b)(17) exempt people (except for certain prohibited classes) from many/most(/all?) of the chargeable 12020(a) offenses if they possess the item in question only long enough to turn it in to LEO. This resolves one of the things that I was unclear on: If you inadvertently violate PC 12020(a)(2) by accidentally importing a magazine (i.e., out of state seller sends you the wrong one, out or state sender ships one you you without your consent, etc.), you should be clear of the importation charge if you promptly surrender the item to LEO. It's still not as clear to me that promptly sending it back to the shipper unambiguously protects you from a PC 12020(a)(2) importation charge, but I expect it should generally be safe if you don't shout about the transaction on Teh Intarwebz.

Now if you were smart, you would just buy them complete from a gun dealer. They are allowed to buy and sell large capacity magazines and clearly purchase is not prohibited. Now finding a dealer to sell them to you is a whole other story. I still don't do it even though I am convinced it is legal.

Now, this has piqued my interest! Off to my iPhone to study PC 12020 (what, doesn't everybody have a copy of the CA Penal Code on their iPhone for instant access, with key sections like 12020 and 12276 bookmarked?)...

So, you're talking about PC 12020(b)(21), right? Given the level of stoopid we see every day here on CGN, why hasn't any dealer had a large enough ratio of testicle mass to brain mass to give this a go? Hmm...

I can't fault you for not wanting to give it a try, given the likelihood of a hostile prosecution vs. the small return on that defense investment compared to more important stuff like being able to bear arms or even buy the arms that those magazines cram into. Still, I'm surprised that I haven't heard of somebody else saying "F it, this is clearly legal and I'm doing it".

diginit
06-23-2010, 10:48 PM
This thread has been very enlightening. But, How can you buy then from a gun dealer if the sale of hicaps is illegal other then to LE or other licensed personel?

bwiese
06-23-2010, 10:53 PM
This thread has been very enlightening. But, How can you buy then from a gun dealer if the sale of hicaps is illegal other then to LE or other licensed personel?

There are a variety of special exceptions that will be explored with planning and caution in the future. There are probably better ways than what Ten Percent is describing though costs may be elevated.

Cokebottle
06-23-2010, 10:58 PM
This thread has been very enlightening. But, How can you buy then from a gun dealer if the sale of hicaps is illegal other then to LE or other licensed personel?
Because of the "poor" wording of 12020...
It exempts FFLs (obviously, so they can import highcaps for sale to unrestricted persons).
It's not illegal to purchase/receive a high-cap.
FFLs are exempt, and 12020 prohibits the sale, so with them being exempt from 12020, on the surface, it appears that an FFL can sell a high-cap to anyone.

383green
06-23-2010, 10:59 PM
This thread has been very enlightening. But, How can you buy then from a gun dealer if the sale of hicaps is illegal other then to LE or other licensed personel?

I'm neither a lawyer nor a firearms dealer, and I just skimmed PC 12020 a moment ago... that being said, it appears that PC 12020(a)(2) (the chargeable offense) does not including buying or possessing (as has been beaten to death in this thread already), and PC 12020(b)(21) (one of the cases where PC 12020(a) does not apply) states:

21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

Section 12071 basically defines a person licensed as a firearms dealer in CA, including the federal requirements (i.e., FFL) and state requirements (i.e., COE, business license(s), etc.).

Thus, buying is not prohibited, and section PC 12020(b)(21) appears to say that licensed firearms dealers in CA can both buy and sell... without restricting who they can buy from or sell to! Other parts of PC 12020(b) refer to specific sellers and/or buyers, but not PC 12020(b)(21). This looks like a much larger hole than the one that you could presumably drive an armored car through.

Am I missing something? It appears clean and A-OK to my untrained eyes, so how could it not have been tried and tested in the last decade unless there's something else I'm missing?

P.S.: I'm not volunteering to be either a buyer or a seller in a test case (I'm not a dealer, anyway). I already have more large-caps than I have holes to cram them into, and there are plenty of other windmills that interest me more! :p

curtisfong
06-23-2010, 11:09 PM
Thus, buying is not prohibited, and section PC 12020(b)(21) appears to say that licensed firearms dealers in CA can both buy and sell... without restricting who they can buy from or sell to! Other parts of PC 12020(b) refer to specific sellers and/or buyers, but not PC 12020(b)(21). This looks like a much larger hole than the one that you could presumably drive an armored car through.

Wow. I have always "assumed" 12020's exceptions did not apply to "normal" people as well. However, this thread prompted me to read it yet again and take a closer look. I, like you, am not a lawyer, but from what I can tell, there is nothing in 12020 that prohibits an FFL from selling any magazine to ... well... anybody.

Incredible.

Do I want to be the test case? Probably not.

curtisfong
06-23-2010, 11:12 PM
There are a variety of special exceptions that will be explored with planning and caution in the future.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the exception is sitting there staring us in the face. Firearms dealars appear to be exempt, and there is no prohibition on buying or possessing mags by individuals, only importation.

You imply that it isn't that simple, but it really does appear to be that way.

What are we missing?

Again, a disclaimer:

1) I am not a lawyer
2) Do not attempt this at home just yet :P

tenpercentfirearms
06-23-2010, 11:48 PM
You aren't missing anything. We have known this on Calguns for at least two years or more I would say. Just no one is opening trying it.

I was going to get a letter from my DA saying they didn't care, but I never got it and so I just dropped it and focused on other things.

Anchors
06-24-2010, 12:12 AM
You aren't missing anything. We have known this on Calguns for at least two years or more I would say. Just no one is opening trying it.

I was going to get a letter from my DA saying they didn't care, but I never got it and so I just dropped it and focused on other things.

Man if you got a letter from your DA and legally sold hi-caps you could probably charge like double ($30-40?).

But I'd rather wait and see what CGF has cooking on that. A lawyer and member on here said recently that the ban might have been unconstitutional from day one, but we'll see.

macadamizer
06-24-2010, 5:00 PM
I think that hypothetical DA would be so creative that they'd be making up their own new laws: "buying" is not one of the prohibited activities in 12020(a)(2).

Within the wording of the law, "buying" is not illegal, unless that "buying" also includes "importation".

That's within the wording of the law... you are still an accomplice (to a misdemeanor).

I was reading something else right before I wrote this post, and looks like I done confused myself. You both are correct, of course.

Cokebottle
06-24-2010, 6:21 PM
Do I want to be the test case? Probably not.
Since "buying" couldn't be charged, the "test case" would have to be with an FFL willing to stick his neck (and license, business, livelihood, and livelihood of his employees) out and tempt the DA/DOJ to cut it off.

Most likely test case would be a retired "kitchen table" FFL (since they still have to have a business license) who doesn't do the FFL thing for a living and so would have nothing (financially) to lose by having his license yanked.

And remember... it's a misdemeanor, so even if the defense fails, it's max 1 year.

stix213
06-24-2010, 6:44 PM
With how "adventurous" some FFLs were at the beginning of the OLL movement that has since gone mainstream, I am a bit surprised no one has gone after this yet.

Now all we need is an FFL that values the 2A more than their own neck... which certainly feels less patriotic than it sounds when its your neck on the chopping block :eek: :7:

curtisfong
06-24-2010, 7:08 PM
With how "adventurous" some FFLs were at the beginning of the OLL movement that has since gone mainstream, I am a bit surprised no one has gone after this yet.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Well, any FFLs want to try this out?

I might call my local FFL and see if he's willing.

dantodd
06-24-2010, 7:14 PM
Just out of curiosity would an 03 FFL qualify for the exemption?

Meplat
06-24-2010, 7:19 PM
What about that litte "offer for sale" thing?


Correct me if I am wrong, but the exception is sitting there staring us in the face. Firearms dealars appear to be exempt, and there is no prohibition on buying or possessing mags by individuals, only importation.

You imply that it isn't that simple, but it really does appear to be that way.

What are we missing?

Again, a disclaimer:

1) I am not a lawyer
2) Do not attempt this at home just yet :P

curtisfong
06-24-2010, 7:25 PM
What about that litte "offer for sale" thing?

Good point. FFLs are only exempt if the PURCHASER is also exempted by 12071:


PC 12020(b)(21)
21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.


Definitely not a good thing. Thanks for the reality check.

dantodd
06-24-2010, 7:31 PM
Good point. FFLs are only exempt if the PURCHASER is also exempted by 12071:


PC 12020(b)(21)
21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

Definitely not a good thing. Thanks for the reality check.

That says by a licensee OR to a licensee. So it can be a licensee selling to a non-licensee or a licensee buying from a non-licensee. It does NOT say that both purchaser AND seller must be licensees.

Cokebottle
06-24-2010, 7:37 PM
Just out of curiosity would an 03 FFL qualify for the exemption?
Negative.

PC 12020
(b)(21)The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

PC 12071
(a)(1)As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A)A valid federal firearms license.
(B)Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C)A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D)A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E)A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F)Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).

tenpercentfirearms
06-24-2010, 8:31 PM
Now all we need is an FFL that values the 2A more than their own neck... which certainly feels less patriotic than it sounds when its your neck on the chopping block :eek: :7:

I would hardly consider going to prison over an 11 round magazine a valuable defense of the 2nd Amendment. Not being able to go over 10 rounds is a minor inconvenience more than anything else.

It also doesn't help that I have a large capacity magazine permit with my name on it so I am not in that big of a hurry to push the issue. I already got mine! :43:

Connor P Price
06-24-2010, 8:43 PM
We've got McDonald coming in a few days, the floodgates are about to open to challenge these bogus laws. I'm hoping we'll be able to do so with little worry of anyone having to put their businesses, livelihood, or freedom on the line.

curtisfong
06-24-2010, 8:53 PM
We've got McDonald coming in a few days, the floodgates are about to open to challenge these bogus laws. I'm hoping we'll be able to do so with little worry of anyone having to put their businesses, livelihood, or freedom on the line.

Incorporation is unlikely to make any difference in magazine capacity laws.. there is nothing wrong with making *normal capacity mags* which hold >10 rounds part of "firearms in common use".

Connor P Price
06-24-2010, 9:03 PM
"Firearms in common use" tend to be capable of holding greater that 10 rounds, to restrict their use seems to be infringing on ones rights to me. How would incorporation not make it easier to strike down the magazine capacity limit?

Cokebottle
06-24-2010, 9:13 PM
"Firearms in common use" tend to be capable of holding greater that 10 rounds, to restrict their use seems to be infringing on ones rights to me. How would incorporation not make it easier to strike down the magazine capacity limit?
Only in the aspect that incorporation could trash the roster, but the mag capacity limit will still be an "underhanded" roster in that guns like the XDm, for which 10 rounders are not made, would still be disallowed.

Connor P Price
06-24-2010, 9:21 PM
In a direct and immediate sense I see it happening that way as well. However, once our right "to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" shouldn't that make it easier to also take down the 10 round capacity limit as well? Limiting us to 10 rounds seems like a definite infringement to me, although that may depend on the level of scrutiny we end up with.

Citadelonline
06-25-2010, 9:49 PM
JEEZUS H. KEERIST, will you PLEASE STOP propagating this crap?:)
I share your frustration; what should have been a 2 post thread has turned in to a mental exercise on how to get busted - for a magazine.

Just some examples of many:
I would keep it.

Is it possible that you will get charged? Maybe.but highly unlikely. I don't see DAs going around wasting $ to charge an upstanding citizen with only a hicap mag charge for one or two magazines.
Is it probable you won't get charged? Would you like to be the first test case? There may be an infentesimal possibility that you may be prosecuted, and maybe you'll never get caught, but if you are, are you willing to forfeit your gun rights for life?

Let's see...Pretend I'm a vendor and sent out several hi cap mags to CA by mistake. Oopsy. But no problem right? It was a mistake. No criminal intent = no crime?
Your neck, not mine. Here's a .50 cal BMG for your trouble.

bwiese gave good information and it's free. I suggest you heed it.

You can rationalise a violation of the law 'til the cows come home, but that won't change the DAs mind if you're caught.

there was a mistake on the vendor's part and i was sent a hi cap mag instead of a ten rounder. i don't want to send it back because i might get in trouble. i dismantled it for now, is there something else i should do? thanks

Answer:
Send it back, unused. It's illegal to import in to CA. Period.

Cokebottle
06-25-2010, 10:01 PM
There may be an infentesimal possibility that you may be prosecuted, and maybe you'll never get caught, but if you are, are you willing to forfeit your gun rights for life?
Misdemeanor, not a felony, and it is not a prohibiting misdemeanor.

ElkHunterSL
06-25-2010, 10:10 PM
Ok, since we have soo many knowledgeable lawyers posting on this thread, please provide an answer to this:

"How is the Police Officer at a gun range going to determine on the spot that my 30 round mag is one I obtained apparently illegally by importing without knowledge vs obtained legally in 1995 pre-ban?"

Keep in mind, it's not ILLEGAL to own a 30 round mag and if you go to a range on any given day you will see many guys there with 30 round clips.

dantodd
06-25-2010, 11:08 PM
Ok, since we have soo many knowledgeable lawyers posting on this thread, please provide an answer to this:

"How is the Police Officer at a gun range going to determine on the spot that my 30 round mag is one I obtained apparently illegally by importing without knowledge vs obtained legally in 1995 pre-ban?"

Keep in mind, it's not ILLEGAL to own a 30 round mag and if you go to a range on any given day you will see many guys there with 30 round clips.

IANAL. He or she is extremely unlikely to be able to do so. The percentage is even lower than Ms. Harris successfully prosecuting a murder in San Francisco. However; I don't advocate breaking the law simply because you are extremely unlikely to be caught.

In 99% of cases the possessor is going to talk himself into jail rather than the officer doing some kind of deep investigation into a credit card history. I am not aware of ANY prosecutions for large capacity magazine violations that didn't involve other firearms issues, it appears to be used almost exclusively as an add-on offense. I'm sure Bill could weight in as he has considerably more information on what, if any, prosecutions have occurred.

Citadelonline
06-25-2010, 11:27 PM
Misdemeanor, not a felony, and it is not a prohibiting misdemeanor.
It is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.
It's punishable as an alternative misdemeanor/felony ("wobbler")
Willing to take the risk?

thayne
06-25-2010, 11:31 PM
Ok, since we have soo many knowledgeable lawyers posting on this thread, please provide an answer to this:

"How is the Police Officer at a gun range going to determine on the spot that my 30 round mag is one I obtained apparently illegally by importing without knowledge vs obtained legally in 1995 pre-ban?"

Keep in mind, it's not ILLEGAL to own a 30 round mag and if you go to a range on any given day you will see many guys there with 30 round clips.
Its still illegal to use a 30 rnd mag in a fixed magazine AR. If you had a registered AW it would be a non-issue.

If you had a featureless AR and they really wanted to push it they could prove your AR didnt exist before the ban based on make, model and SN. But then again you could claim you found it in the mountains and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise

dantodd
06-25-2010, 11:37 PM
If you had a featureless AR and they really wanted to push it they could prove your AR didnt exist before the ban based on make, model and SN. But then again you could claim you found it in the mountains and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise

Or someone could easily own the mags before the firearm. Bill has said that he purchased large capacity magazines for several guns he didn't own at the time because he thought he might want to own them someday.

Citadelonline
06-25-2010, 11:47 PM
Ok, since we have soo many knowledgeable lawyers posting on this thread, please provide an answer to this:

"How is the Police Officer at a gun range going to determine on the spot that my 30 round mag is one I obtained apparently illegally by importing without knowledge vs obtained legally in 1995 pre-ban?"

Keep in mind, it's not ILLEGAL to own a 30 round mag and if you go to a range on any given day you will see many guys there with 30 round clips.
Why on earth would you even consider or promote violating the law - even one you and many others don't agree with - simply because you can?
Responsible gun ownership means abiding by all firearms laws, whether you agree or disagree.
We don't know what new or future gun owners are reading this thread. Set an example, don't make one.

ElkHunterSL
06-26-2010, 6:57 AM
Why on earth would you even consider or promote violating the law - even one you and many others don't agree with - simply because you can?
Responsible gun ownership means abiding by all firearms laws, whether you agree or disagree.
We don't know what new or future gun owners are reading this thread. Set an example, don't make one.

I'm not promoting violating the law. However NOBODY in this thread has yet to PROVE that what happened is illegal. All we have been reading are OPINIONS and some of them contradict the written law.

Many are saying the fact the the OP has the 30 rounder subjects him to prosecution. Based on what, I say?

My last post was simply a response to the folks who keep claiming that somehow this possession is now grounds for prosecution.

Folks are claiming that somebody mailing a 30 rounder without the receivers knowledge is somehow importing, when there hasn't been one case law cited to prove their statements.

We can all agree that possession is not illegal. We can all agree that importing is illegal. However it seems nobody can agree if what happened would legally be considered importing.

Really my question sheds light that this scenario is just plain "stupid" to discuss publicly for lack of a better word because as has been said by many, prosecution for high-cap or standard-cap magazines is rarely done alone. It usually involves the charge being added to other charges, so really, I guess, Why do we even have these threads asking this question because whether somebody imports, buys, is given, finds, whatever a standard-cap magazine, if their Gun was manufactured prior to 2000 a LEO at a Gun Range will have almost zero % change of even determining when the Mag was bought, imported, received, found, etc.

Cokebottle
06-26-2010, 3:37 PM
It is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.
Fixed it for you.

It is not illegal to buy.

Cokebottle
06-26-2010, 3:52 PM
If you had a featureless AR and they really wanted to push it they could prove your AR didnt exist before the ban based on make, model and SN. But then again you could claim you found it in the mountains and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise
Just because "your" AR did not exist prior to the ban doesn't mean that you didn't already own AR mags prior to the ban.
You could have bought and sold a string of ARs from 1980 until present day, and after Jan 1 2000, you would not have been able to sell any of your 30 rounders when you sold your rifles.

You can legally use pre-ban Glock mags with a brand new Glock.
You can even modify pre-ban mags to work with a newer gun, so long as the mag still functions in the original gun. Example, if you have an HS2000 high-cap, it works with the Springfield XD. If you modify it to work with the XDm, then it will no longer work with the XD and you would be guilty of manufacturing.
That's a poor example, because I don't believe the HS2000 mags were imported prior to the CA ban in 2000. If they were, it was only by a few months, and they would have been under the Federal ban which restricted them to LEO/Military... but it was the only example that I could think of off the top of my head where a magazine for "Gun-A" also works with post-ban "Gun-B".
Of course, if they were available, any pre-ban high cap for a 1911 could be used with any modern 1911... though high-cap normally means "10 rounds", I'm sure someone has built bigger mags, just like the 30rd Glock mags.

People had plenty of warning about the ban prior to 2000, and the Federal ban did not restrict transfers or sale, even interstate... it only prohibited the manufacture of NEW high-caps for civilian use.
A lot of people ran out in the last months of 1999 and stocked up on magazines for guns that they someday hoped to purchase, including ARs and AKs.

Without a paper trail, there is no way to prove that a high-cap was imported or manufactured after the ban.
Even if the magazine was not available prior to the ban, such as the Springfield XD, with the 3 year statute of limitations, the burden of proof is on the state to prove that you illegally imported or manufactured the magazine after, as of today, June 25, 2007.

There are two ways you're going to get busted for high-caps....
1 - You talk yourself into jail
2 - You are stopped for a traffic violation coming across the border from Nevada, AZ, or Oregon, you consent to a search, and the cop finds the magazines and a dated receipt.

#2 still falls under "talking yourself into jail".

thayne
06-26-2010, 4:10 PM
Just because "your" AR did not exist prior to the ban doesn't mean that you didn't already own AR mags prior to the ban.
You could have bought and sold a string of ARs from 1980 until present day, and after Jan 1 2000, you would not have been able to sell any of your 30 rounders when you sold your rifles.

You can legally use pre-ban Glock mags with a brand new Glock.
You can even modify pre-ban mags to work with a newer gun, so long as the mag still functions in the original gun. Example, if you have an HS2000 high-cap, it works with the Springfield XD. If you modify it to work with the XDm, then it will no longer work with the XD and you would be guilty of manufacturing.
That's a poor example, because I don't believe the HS2000 mags were imported prior to the CA ban in 2000. If they were, it was only by a few months, and they would have been under the Federal ban which restricted them to LEO/Military... but it was the only example that I could think of off the top of my head where a magazine for "Gun-A" also works with post-ban "Gun-B".
Of course, if they were available, any pre-ban high cap for a 1911 could be used with any modern 1911... though high-cap normally means "10 rounds", I'm sure someone has built bigger mags, just like the 30rd Glock mags.

People had plenty of warning about the ban prior to 2000, and the Federal ban did not restrict transfers or sale, even interstate... it only prohibited the manufacture of NEW high-caps for civilian use.
A lot of people ran out in the last months of 1999 and stocked up on magazines for guns that they someday hoped to purchase, including ARs and AKs.

Without a paper trail, there is no way to prove that a high-cap was imported or manufactured after the ban.
Even if the magazine was not available prior to the ban, such as the Springfield XD, with the 3 year statute of limitations, the burden of proof is on the state to prove that you illegally imported or manufactured the magazine after, as of today, June 25, 2007.

There are two ways you're going to get busted for high-caps....
1 - You talk yourself into jail
2 - You are stopped for a traffic violation coming across the border from Nevada, AZ, or Oregon, you consent to a search, and the cop finds the magazines and a dated receipt.

#2 still falls under "talking yourself into jail".
Yep I agree with that. in my post I was just giving some examples. I know there are a lot more.

ElkHunterSL
06-27-2010, 11:57 AM
Even if the magazine was not available prior to the ban, such as the Springfield XD, with the 3 year statute of limitations, the burden of proof is on the state to prove that you illegally imported or manufactured the magazine after, as of today, June 25, 2007.

Interesting. Do you have a link to the Statute regarding this?

dantodd
06-27-2010, 12:54 PM
Interesting. Do you have a link to the Statute regarding this?

A statute regarding what exactly?

bigcalidave
06-27-2010, 1:03 PM
Is this thread really still going?? Wow!

ElkHunterSL
06-27-2010, 1:21 PM
A statute regarding what exactly?

The statute regarding the 3 year period. But that's ok, I found it on the Calguns Wiki so very interesting, indeed.