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View Full Version : Educate a noob? What is so special about the 1911?


rondre3000
06-15-2010, 11:35 AM
My first and only .45 is an XD45 compact. I picked it up for HD/SD usage. From this site I'm getting that the 1911 is a superior design and something every gun collection shouldn't be without.

Just curious, but besides the insane customizability, what is so special about them? I saw a beautiful Kimber at the fun store the other day and hurriedly looked on to something else because I was afraid she'd put a spell on me and I'd wind up lusting after her until she was finally mine. Hahaha.


-r.

Black Majik
06-15-2010, 11:36 AM
Absolutely nothing. They're over rated heavy hunks of metal.

Get a Glock!

DougJ
06-15-2010, 11:38 AM
Absolutely nothing. They're over rated heavy hunks of metal.

Get a Glock!

LOLZ.



OP, have you ever shot a 1911?

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:38 AM
1911 is a 100 year old design that is over hyped and is far inferior to modern hand guns.


He is right get a Glock or anything else. To all the people that will tell you to get one ask why? Is it because it's more reliable?Holds more rounds?Better barrel? Higher FPS? What is it? lol you will find out at the end that it's a money maker nothing else.

thevic
06-15-2010, 11:38 AM
they look badass and have many custom options

Buddhabelly
06-15-2010, 11:39 AM
Absolutely nothing. They're over rated heavy hunks of metal.

Get a Glock!

Tru dat! A 100 year old design, old clunkers.

Get a SIG!

247Nino
06-15-2010, 11:40 AM
If you like the grip angle on your XD, its because the 1911 came first.

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:40 AM
LOLZ.



OP, have you ever shot a 1911?

I have shot a few and they all have jammed on me, lol I go with my friends and watched them try to hide their jams it's hilarious.

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:41 AM
they look badass and have many custom options

Ha haha like I said.

leelaw
06-15-2010, 11:41 AM
They are highly customizable, reliable, accurate, and seem to be a great fit to many people.

If they work and feel right for you, then get one. If not, then look at something else.

Or you could get a Glock instead because Glock kool-aid tastes better.

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:42 AM
If you like the grip angle on your XD, its because the 1911 came first.

And what does that mean? XD is far better design so is Sig so is Glock Ruger Berreta or anything else.

jaymz
06-15-2010, 11:42 AM
Absolutely nothing. They're over rated heavy hunks of metal.

Get a Glock!


:nono: You forgot to add :rolleyes: - the op may think you're serious!

Black Majik
06-15-2010, 11:43 AM
:nono: You forgot to add :rolleyes: - the op may think you're serious!

Wait.... I was serious.






























:D

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:43 AM
They are highly customizable, reliable, accurate, and seem to be a great fit to many people.

If they work and feel right for you, then get one. If not, then look at something else.

Or you could get a Glock instead because Glock kool-aid tastes better.



He is right if they feel right, I am not sure about the reliability but there is nothing better then a gun that fit's you right, go to a range and rent one and try it out.

Call_me_Tom
06-15-2010, 11:45 AM
Get both a G21 & 1911...I know I am!

para38super
06-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Absolutely nothing. They're over rated heavy hunks of metal.

Get a Glock!

I smell sarcasm!:rolleyes: Baer Custom!;)

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Some people find that the ergonomics of the 1911 fit them better, and that the superior ergonomics outweigh all the drawbacks such as the unreliability, the low capacity, etc. Try one out and see if you like it.

1lostinspace
06-15-2010, 11:48 AM
Get both a G21 & 1911...I know I am!

yeah a Glock to save your life and a 1911 to shoot at paper :D

rondre3000
06-15-2010, 11:49 AM
Haha...thanks for the VERY fast responses.

So the 1911 is mostly hype when you compare it to the current crop of handguns?

I already own a Glock...a Glock19RTF2. LOVE it. Only have about 1500rds thru since I bought it new 2months ago, but no failures to speak of.

jaymz
06-15-2010, 11:51 AM
So the 1911 is mostly hype when you compare it to the current crop of handguns?


WHAT IS THIS BLASPHEMY OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?!?!

leelaw
06-15-2010, 11:52 AM
So the 1911 is mostly hype when you compare it to the current crop of handguns?

No, the other guns are about the same amount of hype.

dragonbait1a
06-15-2010, 11:52 AM
1911s are a classic design and we touted as the ultimate fighting pistol by Jeff Cooper, "Father of the Modern Pistol Shooting Technique." They have history and to many people beauty. they can be customized in a million ways are are typically (but not always) metal framed.

OTOH, they are a single action design that is considered antiquated in modern pistol design (excluding the Para LDA) and often require modification to work for left handed people.

I like 1911s (and Hi-Powers too), they are "Pretty" and "Classic" That said, My choice for a gun to trust my life to is a Glock. I'd not hesitate to wear a Glock exposed to weather Or even if I had to carry it into a shower or thru a river. I wouldn't worry about mud and grit in my holster, I'd not care about damage to the finish of my Glock. For me, the Glock fits my hand better and is smaller, carrying more rounds. the Glock has fewer parts, nearly all of which are fully interchangeable (within model) without gunsmithing.

The 1911 is a wonderful pistol, but not my choice for fighting. Your choice is uniquely yours, buy what you like for your own reasons.

RGB

testosteroneOD
06-15-2010, 11:58 AM
I used to wonder the same. Carried a Glock for many many years as a CCW. Used to wonder why anyone would want to spend so much on a gun and then spend even more getting it 'customized' when my $500 dollar Glock did the same thing.
Then one day I bought a 1911 Colt as the deal was too good to pass up. Now my Glock and XD and other guns sit and the 1911 is with me in the house. And, hopefully, if I get my CCW it will be my 1911 doing most of the CCW duty.

Less capacity, more expensive, heavier...but it just feels right in my hands.

God Bless The Mauser
06-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Some people just like how iconic it is. It is the same with the single action Colt, it is WAY outdated but still has a huge market. I have a 1911 and that's what I prefer but, I'm still going to pick up a Glock, right after a S&W .44mag for my Alaska trip :D

As for capacity, If 7 rounds of .45ACP can't do it, you are in serious trouble.

maverickmage
06-15-2010, 11:59 AM
The 1911 does have some advantages.

1. They look cool.
2. They are customizable. (Which is a plus if having your "own" gun is important)
- Now for the real benefits -
3. The pistol is very flat due to its single stack nature. (Even more so with slim grips)
4. One of the best triggers on the market. Not only is it very crisp and consistent (because of single action setup), the trigger also moves straight back instead of working as a lever.
5. Has one of the shortest resets.
6. If you ever run out of ammo and need to bludgeon someone with it, the all steel construction would probably deal more damage than some plastic guns :D

With that said... I think that for the $500-$600 range, you can probably get a better gun from a polymer pistol than a 1911. I also think that 1911 holds a soft spot in American's heart because of its legacy.

drunktank
06-15-2010, 12:05 PM
On the internet, you will hear people boasting of the 1911's options and features - rightfully so in my opinion. However, if a gun "fits" you as is, much of that extra customizing goes out the window in a 1911. I've yet to shoot a 1911 that costs less than my old USP and is as reliable. Actually to be honest, I've shot custom Kimbers that weren't as reliable as my HK. Many people say that once you fine tune the gun (i.e. spend extra cash on it to get it reliable) then it's a work of art. If they're happy with it, then I totally respect that. For ME, they're over-hyped. Yes they were ahead of their time by 100 years, yes they have a great history and yes many people respect Mr. Browning more than Jesus Christ. Throw opinion and sediment out and you have a gun that may not equal to other pistols on the market pound for pound/price to price. The triggers are nice, but I seem to be in the rock bottom percentile that thinks a CZ has a nicer trigger. Doesn't matter if people say a CZ came from a 1911, as that's a different story!

Then again, if the thing puts a smile on your face and you go to bed happy, that's what matters right? As long as it goes boom when you need it to.

choprzrul
06-15-2010, 12:23 PM
My oldest was seriously smitten with the xD9 bug until he tried my crappy (Auto Ordanance) 1911. The light, crisp trigger on a 1911 is a thing of beauty that can never be duplicated on a Glock.

It might be a 100 year old design (give or take a few years), but since it is still in production you gotta believe there is something inherently correct about that design. Ideally, I would like to have the 1911 trigger imitated on my 92fs with a decocker instead of the safety. I can only dream...

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 1:05 PM
a 1911 have brought down a Japanese zero, no glock, beretta, or sig have ever achieve anything similar to that record.

some people consider the glock to be a superior combat pistol over the 1911. i on the other hand respectfully disagreed. people who favor the glock usually like it for its operation simplicity, its consistent trigger pull, which in their mind translate to faster repose time during crises. on the other hand, the 1911 have lighter trigger which for most people means more accurate shooting. the trigger pull motion is straight back rather than a lever type, which also means its easier to shoot accurately because there are less lateral effect of the trigger operation. the reset is shorter which means faster rapid firing. though the capacity is much lower (17+1 of G17 vs 7-8+1 of a typical 1911) but IMO, its the round that landed on your target that counts and 7 rds is more than enough to kill anything that moves. since the 1911 can be carry lock and cock, the time it take to unholster/ turning the safety off would require the same ammount of time as unholstering a glock. since effective combat revolves around situational awareness, a properly train 1911 operator would have the same reaction time as a glock operator.

the reliability of a 1911 from a reputable manufacture would be the same as a glock as long as its properly maintain. the one aspect that a 1911 edge out over a glock is when operating in extreme temperature condition. due to its polymer frame construction, a glock's frame can cracked under extremely cold operating temperature (this is not the same as putting the glock in a large ice cube test, but rather a prolong operation in high altitude under sub 0 temperature)

despite its age, I think the 1911 design should still be the yardstick that all new combat firearm should measure up to. and i don't think using the 1911 as the standard have change since to the introduction of the glock.

last for $5-600, you can get a reliable Springfield GI or RIA 1911.

Gallows
06-15-2010, 1:14 PM
http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php

These guys will set you straight.

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 1:23 PM
due to its polymer frame construction, a glock's frame can cracked under extremely cold operating temperature (this is not the same as putting the glock in a large ice cube test, but rather a prolong operation in high altitude under sub 0 temperature)

Prove it.

loosewreck
06-15-2010, 1:24 PM
I saw a beautiful Kimber at the fun store the other day and hurriedly looked on to something else because I was afraid she'd put a spell on me and I'd wind up lusting after her until she was finally mine. Hahaha.
-r.

You already are. :D

For me its the esthetics, history/mystique, fit/ergonomics, clever mechanical design, and aftermarket support.

Also 1911s are like classic Mustangs and Camaros, where as Sigs and H&Ks are like Porches and BMWs.

rtadlock
06-15-2010, 1:25 PM
I owned a Glock 22 first and a S&W revolver. Then I shot a Kimber Goldmatch and was instantly sold. It just feels right to some people including me. The trigger and balance makes up for the capacity difference.

However for $500-$600 I do believe you will get a overall better gun with a Glock then a lower end 1911 at least for Home defence. Ive shot high end and low end 1911s and there is a difference.

As for reliability I have 6700 rounds through my Wilson Combat CQB 1911 with no failures at all and all kinds of ammo. Guanteed 1" groups at 25 yard from the manufacturer. (the gun can do this not me) :D

1st5
06-15-2010, 1:36 PM
I tried many pistols at the rental range. 1911 style fit my hand the best. XD45 was going to be my first choice until they put a Wilson Combat and Kimber in my hands. Glocks are great pistols but short of reworking the grip they just don't fit my hands.
Now I own a Charles Daly 1911. Never had a jam or FTF. It is a timeless design that is still used by our military. Just like old lady Ma Deuce. I've heard of an officer who carries his '43 Remington Rand. And some of our spec ops carry 1911s as well. And since mine carries 8+1 and we can only carry ten in this state anyway. And I can get ten round mags for it if I felt like it.

BitterOldMan
06-15-2010, 1:40 PM
Out of the box, Glock is a great buy. Reliable, easy field stripping, easy to obtain parts, high capacity (at least pre-ban), multiple calibers are among the advantages of a Glock.

Most 1911s need some work, unless you are spending some big money. Some people have had good results with the RIA tactical. The 1911 is a natural pointing shooter and like many people on this forum, I agreed with the superior trigger on the 1911.

Shoot a 1911 at your local shooting range and decide for yourself.

Shaolin Crane
06-15-2010, 1:49 PM
Out of the box, Glock is a great buy. Reliable, easy field stripping, easy to obtain parts, high capacity (at least pre-ban), multiple calibers are among the advantages of a Glock.

Most 1911s need some work, unless you are spending some big money. Some people have had good results with the RIA tactical. The 1911 is a natural pointing shooter and like many people on this forum, I agreed with the superior trigger on the 1911.

Shoot a 1911 at your local shooting range and decide for yourself.

I agree, my 1911 has NEVER jammed not even with chity wolf ammo, sharp, light, short, trigger, and a gun i wouldnt hesitate to trust my life with, thats why it stays under my pillow every night

Donk310
06-15-2010, 1:51 PM
My 1911 jams a lot too. I can't figure it out. But I'm not using it for self defense and I still love it. For me... its just owning a work-horse piece of history, I mean M-60's jam a lot too, but you wouldn't turn one down for a "cool" AK-47 would you? I also own a "cool" Glock that jams and is a pain in the ***** to hold... In fact, the only reason I keep it is because its the ONLY pistol I have with night sights, so I wouldn't say go that route. My XD is pretty right on. Good choice there. I have a pretty good fire arms collection. If I didn't have a 1911 in there somewhere (or a glock), I would have no collection at all.

huck
06-15-2010, 2:03 PM
It was designed by John Browning. We should all own one.

We should all have BAR's too.

Donk310
06-15-2010, 2:06 PM
It was designed by John Browning. We should all own one.

We should all have BAR's too.

Amen on that!!

slick_711
06-15-2010, 2:10 PM
I equate this to the AK vs. AR debate:

The AK is incredibly reliable no matter how you treat it. It carries lots of rounds, which are larger than the AR's. It is idiot proof and easy to use. It is not an accurate design, but is as accurate as needs be for combat purposes. It does not need to be cleaned and rarely needs any maintenance. It is a rifle for the children, mercenaries, insurgents, and untrained warriors the world over. It is cheaper to mass produce and field. It also maintains a long running military service record in Communist and third world countries the world over.

The AR is very reliable, but it requires regular maintenance and care from it's user to maintain that reliability. It carries enough rounds, though less than the AK. It isn't hard to use, but it is slightly more complex than the AK, and it requires training and trigger time to become truly proficient with. It is a very accurate rifle, well beyond the needs of combat, with less recoil and is faster back on target than the AK. It is the rifle of trained warriors and men who don't mind having to occasionally clean their rifle in trade for maintaining it's superior characteristics in other areas. It is more expensive to mass produce and field. It has been the weapon of choice of the US military for nearly 50 years, and is incredibly customizable and has an aftermarket parts industry that gives you thousands of options.

Now re-read that and substitute "Glock" for "AK" and "1911" for "AR." It will still be 95% accurate, and you'll get the gist. Of course that leaves out the tradition, steel, and patriotism that you can only find in the 1911.

That said, plenty of guys will disagree with parts of that comparison between the pistols or the rifles; and they won't be wrong. Everyone has their opinions and preferences. You can't really go wrong with an AK or an AR, a Glock or a 1911. But once you get experienced with both, most guys do find themselves preferring one over the other.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 2:16 PM
Prove it.

the thermal fatigue strength of polymer in general is much less than steel. though the polymor frame does not contact the barrel it self, the extreme temperature rise and fall from firing would cause a thermal shock during operation in sub zero ambient temperature environment. in addition, heat, light (UV), and chemical degeneration can also occur during the life of its operation.

Glass fiber/epoxy composites were thermally conditioned at 50, 100, 150, 200, and 250C for different periods of time and then immediately quenched directly in ice-cold water from each stage of conditioning temperature. The polymerization or depolymerization by thermal conditioning and the debonding effect by concurrently following thermal shock in polymer composites are assessed in the present study. The short-beam shear tests were performed at room temperature on the quenched samples to evaluate the value of interlaminar shear strength of the composites. The short conditioning time followed by thermal shock resulted in reduction of shear strength of the composites. The strength started regaining its original value with longer conditioning time. Conditioning at 250C and thereafter quenching yielded a sharp and continuous fall in the shear strength
that is an abstract of a report that was done for glass fiber and epoxy. though i am not sure of the exact proportion of the polymer composition in the glock's frame, the general mechanical properties of polymer still applies.

C.W.M.V.
06-15-2010, 2:19 PM
I choose 1911's for the same reason I like AK's. No other weapons have the combat history of either. Both have been relied upon by warriors in combat for generations. I currently own an example of each, an XD 45, G17, and 1911 officers model (RIA). I have had Colt (70 series) and Springfield (GI) 1911's as well.
I really like my XD. Very comfortable, easy to shoot and maintain, accurate, reliable-there really isn't anything bad about it. My glock (bought for my wife), is a cool little plinker. Its not as accurate as the XD or the 1911, but the sights are ok and the trigger is better than the XD. All in all If I had to compare the two they come out about even.
Then comparing those to my little cheap RIA officer, it has a WAY better trigger, WAY better accuracy, WAY better reliability (several thousand rounds without malfunction, which can not be said for any other pistol Ive ever owned), WAY better ergonomics, INSANELY strong all steel design, and the list just keeps going. The sights (GI) suck honestly, but for 30 bucks I can install a set of sights that are equal or better than stock on the Glock or XD because there are sooooo many options out there. Hell fully adjustable steel sights for $50.
That's why I'm selling my XD and trying to get my wife to sell her G17rtf, so we can replace them with 1911's. Not that I don't like or don't trust XD or Glock-I just like 1911's better.
And for the record you don't have to spend $1000 for a quality 1911 either. Ive owned a few and had my hands on more than a few kimbers (pass...) and honestly my little $500 out-the-door RIA officers is my utter favorite. by far the most bang ive ever gotten for the buck-so you can add cheaper to my list of reasons to favor the 1911 as well.

It was designed by John Moses Browning...

Hallowed be thy name. My personal lord and savior.
have you accepted John Moses Browning into your heart?

IPSICK
06-15-2010, 2:21 PM
Go to nearest action pistol range and try out a competitor's 1911 based gun. Then you'll be hooked.

For those who love the double-action style trigger, I don't think you can appreciate the beautiful elegance of a crisp and short resetting single action trigger.

If you haven't guessed, the trigger is the winner for me. Most pistol triggers are modified to approach what the 1911 naturally brings you.

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 2:23 PM
the thermal fatigue strength of polymer in general is much less than steel. though the polymor frame does not contact the barrel it self, the extreme temperature rise and fall from firing would cause a thermal shock during operation in sub zero ambient temperature environment. in addition, heat, light (UV), and chemical degeneration can also occur during the life of its operation.


that is an abstract of a report that was done for glass fiber and epoxy. though i am not sure of the exact proportion of the polymer composition in the glock's frame, the general mechanical properties of polymer still applies.

Still waiting for you to show examples of Glocks failing in cold weather.

mothermopar
06-15-2010, 2:25 PM
Besides the history, etc. etc... I always tell people the following:

In the event it comes down to it (SHTF), I can hammer a nail with my Colt 1911 and it'll still work just fine... try that with your freaking "Black Wunder Pistol".

BTW: I shoot Sigs and Glocks... carry/carried both as assigned weapons. Both are great, functioned well... but they're not a Colt 1911.

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 2:32 PM
Besides the history, etc. etc... I always tell people the following:

In the event it comes down to it (SHTF), I can hammer a nail with my Colt 1911 and it'll still work just fine... try that with your freaking "Black Wunder Pistol".

BTW: I shoot Sigs and Glocks... carry/carried both as assigned weapons. Both are great, functioned well... but they're not a Colt 1911.

You would use a pistol to hammer a nail instead of something like a rock or (god forbid) a hammer? Unless Nor.K declares war on hammers, I think if/when your SHTF fantasy comes true, all the hammers won't just magically disappear. ;)

1064chubbs
06-15-2010, 2:33 PM
For those making the Hi cap case, in most of the US thats true but in CA unless you had some mags prior to 2000 a 10rd 1911 mag will hold just as many as a 10rd glock mag:p

1064chubbs
06-15-2010, 2:35 PM
By the way I do own 1911's and Glocks and I shoot best with 1911's just feel more natural for me.

locosway
06-15-2010, 2:40 PM
My first and only .45 is an XD45 compact. I picked it up for HD/SD usage. From this site I'm getting that the 1911 is a superior design and something every gun collection shouldn't be without.

Just curious, but besides the insane customizability, what is so special about them? I saw a beautiful Kimber at the fun store the other day and hurriedly looked on to something else because I was afraid she'd put a spell on me and I'd wind up lusting after her until she was finally mine. Hahaha.


-r.

The 1911 is like the smokin' hot blonde. She's expensive, and if you don't give her enough attention she'll ruin your life.

locosway
06-15-2010, 2:41 PM
Besides the history, etc. etc... I always tell people the following:

In the event it comes down to it (SHTF), I can hammer a nail with my Colt 1911 and it'll still work just fine... try that with your freaking "Black Wunder Pistol".

BTW: I shoot Sigs and Glocks... carry/carried both as assigned weapons. Both are great, functioned well... but they're not a Colt 1911.

That's what my Emmerson knife is for, it's hammered a few nails already.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 2:45 PM
Still waiting for you to show examples of Glocks failing in cold weather.

well, just to be clear, you asked for proof, and i give you proof.

to be honest, finding conclusive answers for the type of failure on a glock that i am describing is hard. since most of the test shows only firing a few rounds which is not sufficient to cause fatigue. the kind of failure i am describing is more of a long term effect where continues operations under extremely cold temperature will cause premature failure like cracking for polymer product. plus just like anything else on the internet, take their "Proof" with a grain of salt. regardless, those type of failures are common amongst polymer base products. as a result, there is a probability that this type of premature failure can occur. on the other hand, i am not saying this type of failure will occur, nor am i talking about the practical implication of the possibility for this type of failure to occur.

ruchik
06-15-2010, 2:47 PM
Well, a 1911 is favored by many for a number of reasons. Depending on who builds it, it's reliable, accurate, fits the hand very nicely, and if it doesn't suit your taste right off the bat, you can change basically anything you want on the gun to make it suit your needs and tastes. Sure, 8 rounds isn't limitless, but as someone pointed out, in California you can't get more than ten rounds anyway, and I challenge anyone to take 8 rounds of .45 to the body and tell me it's insufficient to stop a fight. They've got great triggers, and are very easy to reach, even with someone who's got small hands. So for someone who can't manipulate a DA or striker fired trigger due to having small hands like myself, a SA trigger is a godsend. No, NOT because you're not training to use a DA trigger, but because you literally CANNOT because your hands are too small. It happens. Some people also like to point out that the 1911 is a 100 year old design. Well, again, it's a 100 year old design. The fact that it's still around and it's basic design has not changed in all that time means it obviously works. Force Recon Marines use them, LAPD SWAT uses them, and if I'm not mistaken so does the FBI HRT. They're just data points, like anything else is, but the track record really speaks for itself. The 1911 has to be getting something right, otherwise it wouldn't be the choice for agencies such as those and have been around for such a long time. Yes, the Glock also has a great track record, but it hasn't been around for 100 years. Numbers are numbers.

On the other hand, by virtue of it being 100 years old, the 1911 IS an outdated design. Anything that's 100 years old is. It's got great pros, but equally significant cons as well. It's reliable but heavy, shoots big bullets but doesn't hold many in the magazine, accurate but large. A Smith and Wesson M&P, for example, can hold more rounds in the mag chambered in .45, still accurate, still reliable, and weighs less.

In the end, it's entirely up to you and what feels right in YOUR hand. If a Glock feels funky to you but a 1911 feels like it was made just for you, get the 1911. Get the Glock if the reverse is true. Doesn't matter what gun you get if you can't shoot it properly. And remember, what turns you on? If you see a 1911 in a display case through a store window, does your "manhood" precede you through the door? Does a Glock tickle your pickle? Get what feels right and looks right to you.

GM_77
06-15-2010, 2:48 PM
the thermal fatigue strength of polymer in general is much less than steel. though the polymor frame does not contact the barrel it self, the extreme temperature rise and fall from firing would cause a thermal shock during operation in sub zero ambient temperature environment. in addition, heat, light (UV), and chemical degeneration can also occur during the life of its operation.


that is an abstract of a report that was done for glass fiber and epoxy. though i am not sure of the exact proportion of the polymer composition in the glock's frame, the general mechanical properties of polymer still applies.

This proves exactly nothing unfortunately except that you don't like to use capital letters at the beginning of each sentence.

I also don't understand why you brought in FiberGlass material properties to compare with (what might be) a nylon resin based product.

Not too sure about your thermal shock theory either. I think it would be something to pursue if a Glock's polymer frame actually got hot to the touch under normal operational conditions but it doesn't, it remains fairly close to ambient.

locosway
06-15-2010, 2:51 PM
well, just to be clear, you asked for proof, and i give you proof.

to be honest, finding conclusive answers for the type of failure on a glock that i am describing is hard. since most of the test shows only firing a few rounds which is not sufficient to cause fatigue. the kind of failure i am describing is more of a long term effect where continues operations under extremely cold temperature will cause premature failure like cracking for polymer product. plus just like anything else on the internet, take their "Proof" with a grain of salt. regardless, those type of failures are common amongst polymer base products. as a result, there is a probability that this type of premature failure can occur. on the other hand, i am not saying this type of failure will occur, nor am i talking about the practical implication of the possibility for this type of failure to occur.

Average Winter temp in AK: sub-zero
Sidearm issued to all LEO's: Glock 22
Look on your face now.....: Priceless

ruchik
06-15-2010, 2:57 PM
Well, let's be fair here guys. ANY gun can and eventually will malfunction. Glocks, for all their magnificent reliability, are not mechanical objects that exist outside the laws of physics and nature. It's entirely possible, under the right conditions, for a Glock (or any gun for that matter) to fail. Just because you personally may not have seen it happen doesn't it mean it can't. And just because it's never been reported doesn't mean it can't happen either. For example, we all know escorts and escort agencies exist, but you rarely hear about them in the news or the like. You may not hear about it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

neomedic
06-15-2010, 3:00 PM
I love both the 1911 and the polymer frame guns. I would say the 1911 has one the best triggers, (short and crisp) which makes me much more accurate. The polymer frame guns are mostly work horses, they are designed to go bang with an accuracy that will be more than enough to put someone down.

I would get both and have lots of fun. But if you were to tell me that I'll be going to some harsh environment without a easy way to get parts or be able to maintain my firearm for extended periods to time....my vote would be for a polymer gun (Glock, HK.....in that order).

locosway
06-15-2010, 3:01 PM
Well, let's be fair here guys. ANY gun can and eventually will malfunction. Glocks, for all their magnificent reliability, are not mechanical objects that exist outside the laws of physics and nature. It's entirely possible, under the right conditions, for a Glock (or any gun for that matter) to fail. Just because you personally may not have seen it happen doesn't it mean it can't. And just because it's never been reported doesn't mean it can't happen either. For example, we all know escorts and escort agencies exist, but you rarely hear about them in the news or the like. You may not hear about it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

No one said Glocks were perfect. Have you been keeping up with the thread, or just throwing in your $.02 blindly?

GM_77
06-15-2010, 3:03 PM
p.s. Also what doesn't make sense with the thermal shock thing is that polymide's thermal conductivity is like .12 W/m-K and steel is like 40 W/m-K. So the heat ain't traveling into the polymer frame, the natural convection + entire surface area of steel frame is probably a better heat path than the .12 W/m-K polymer frame.


Average Winter temp in AK: sub-zero
Sidearm issued to all LEO's: Glock 22

ok thats proof enough! LOL

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 3:05 PM
well, just to be clear, you asked for proof, and i give you proof.

to be honest, finding conclusive answers for the type of failure on a glock that i am describing is hard. since most of the test shows only firing a few rounds which is not sufficient to cause fatigue. the kind of failure i am describing is more of a long term effect where continues operations under extremely cold temperature will cause premature failure like cracking for polymer product. plus just like anything else on the internet, take their "Proof" with a grain of salt. regardless, those type of failures are common amongst polymer base products. as a result, there is a probability that this type of premature failure can occur. on the other hand, i am not saying this type of failure will occur, nor am i talking about the practical implication of the possibility for this type of failure to occur.

No you didn't. This is your THIRD post on the matter and you still have yet to show me ANY proof that Glocks will fail in cold weather. I mean, it should be EASY to find some reports, right? Glock is used by the Austrian military, and half of Austria is covered by the Alps -- a BIG MOUNTAIN RANGE. It gets COLD in the mountains. So shouldn't there be plenty of reports from the Austrian military of their pistols breaking in the cold weather? Go ahead, show me the reports. I'll wait right here.

ruchik
06-15-2010, 3:06 PM
No one said Glocks were perfect. Have you been keeping up with the thread, or just throwing in your $.02 blindly?

Seemed like it was turning into one of those arguments from my perspective. I wasn't aware my comment was offensive to you, but I apologize if it was. Not my intention, just trying to make a fair argument for both sides. In the end, it's up to the OP to decide what fits for him, and I was trying to give him both sides of the story.

Sniper3142
06-15-2010, 3:07 PM
I equate this to the AK vs. AR debate:

The AK is incredibly reliable no matter how you treat it. It carries lots of rounds, which are larger than the AR's. It is idiot proof and easy to use. It is not an accurate design, but is as accurate as needs be for combat purposes. It does not need to be cleaned and rarely needs any maintenance. It is a rifle for the children, mercenaries, insurgents, and untrained warriors the world over. It is cheaper to mass produce and field. It also maintains a long running military service record in Communist and third world countries the world over.

The AR is very reliable, but it requires regular maintenance and care from it's user to maintain that reliability. It carries enough rounds, though less than the AK. It isn't hard to use, but it is slightly more complex than the AK, and it requires training and trigger time to become truly proficient with. It is a very accurate rifle, well beyond the needs of combat, with less recoil and is faster back on target than the AK. It is the rifle of trained warriors and men who don't mind having to occasionally clean their rifle in trade for maintaining it's superior characteristics in other areas. It is more expensive to mass produce and field. It has been the weapon of choice of the US military for nearly 50 years, and is incredibly customizable and has an aftermarket parts industry that gives you thousands of options.

Now re-read that and substitute "Glock" for "AK" and "1911" for "AR." It will still be 95% accurate, and you'll get the gist. Of course that leaves out the tradition, steel, and patriotism that you can only find in the 1911.

That said, plenty of guys will disagree with parts of that comparison between the pistols or the rifles; and they won't be wrong. Everyone has their opinions and preferences. You can't really go wrong with an AK or an AR, a Glock or a 1911. But once you get experienced with both, most guys do find themselves preferring one over the other.

This is pretty much dead on the money.

:)

NorCalMama
06-15-2010, 3:08 PM
One word-KIMBER *yummy*

Seriously, I LOVE Glocks, I'm a Glock gal all the way, but dayum, how can you go wrong with this-

http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/products/pistols/covert/small_ultra_covert_II.jpg

Ooooooh yes!!! Sexy doesn't begin to describe it.... :wub:

HkFan416
06-15-2010, 3:09 PM
well, just to be clear, you asked for proof, and i give you proof.

to be honest, finding conclusive answers for the type of failure on a glock that i am describing is hard. since most of the test shows only firing a few rounds which is not sufficient to cause fatigue. the kind of failure i am describing is more of a long term effect where continues operations under extremely cold temperature will cause premature failure like cracking for polymer product. plus just like anything else on the internet, take their "Proof" with a grain of salt. regardless, those type of failures are common amongst polymer base products. as a result, there is a probability that this type of premature failure can occur. on the other hand, i am not saying this type of failure will occur, nor am i talking about the practical implication of the possibility for this type of failure to occur.

No...you actually never gave proof. He asked you to show a Glock's frame that has cracked due to sub-zero temperatures.

HkFan416
06-15-2010, 3:14 PM
And what does that mean? XD is far better design so is Sig so is Glock Ruger Berreta or anything else.

:eek:

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:17 PM
This proves exactly nothing unfortunately except that you don't like to use capital letters at the beginning of each sentence.

I also don't understand why you brought in FiberGlass material properties to compare with (what might be) a nylon resin based product.

Not too sure about your thermal shock theory either. I think it would be something to pursue if a Glock's polymer frame actually got hot to the touch under normal operational conditions but it doesn't, it remains fairly close to ambient.

the fiberglass/epoxy example is to show the combine properties of fiber and resin behavior under sharp temperature change, thus thermal shock. the general behavior of the polymer based product remains similar but the magnitudes differ from one type of polymer to another. regardless, thermoplastic will be brittle during cold weather even with plasticizers.

as far as the thermal shock theory, the major problem is the rapid change in the temperature difference rather than the absolute temperature. where when the ambient temperature remains extremely cold (hence the polymer becomes brittle), the surrounding suddenly becomes very hot (from firing, the temperature spike happens in a fraction of a second), then the gas escape and the frame become extremely cold again. during that processes, the rapid thermal expansion and retraction can cause residual stress over a prolong period of time and operation.

now after having said that, my initial intention was purely pointing out the different between the 1911 frame and glock frame; where the 1911 all steel frame is better in this extreme situation. this is by no means of saying the 1911 is definitively better than the glock or the extreme condition can occur giving practical consideration. just a moo point for the OP.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:20 PM
No...you actually never gave proof. He asked you to show a Glock's frame that has cracked due to sub-zero temperatures.

no sir, he said "proof it".

i proofed it with theoretical information. only later he asked for an example of a Glock's frame that has cracked due to sub-zero temperatures.

BusBoy
06-15-2010, 3:22 PM
No...you actually never gave proof. He asked you to show a Glock's frame that has cracked due to sub-zero temperatures.

Actually he didnt initially... go re-read. He simply said "Prove it."

If you pointed a gun at your face and said" if I pull this trigger, it wont hurt!" Then, I gave you 100 pages of documents that said... yeah it actually MIGHT. I guess youd say "thats not proof." :rolleyes:

Bill Carson
06-15-2010, 3:25 PM
a 1911 is a 57 t-bird, a 1964 and a 1/2 ford mustang, a 1963 corvette. a CLASSIC.

HkFan416
06-15-2010, 3:27 PM
no sir, he said "proof it".

i proofed it with theoretical information. only later he asked for an example of a Glock's frame that has cracked due to sub-zero temperatures.

Well, when someone replies prove it to this statement:

[QUOTE=due to its polymer frame construction, a glock's frame can cracked under extremely cold operating temperature (this is not the same as putting the glock in a large ice cube test, but rather a prolong operation in high altitude under sub 0 temperature)[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure he is asking you to prove a Glock frame has cracked in sub-zero temperatures.

nn3453
06-15-2010, 3:27 PM
I'm not a very smart guy to begin with, but reading this thread made me a lot dumber.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:31 PM
Average Winter temp in AK: sub-zero
Sidearm issued to all LEO's: Glock 22
Look on your face now.....: Priceless

no, i guess my look would be shock. i am surprise at the reading ability of some of the members that post in this thd.

you have failed to notice the word "EXTREME" in my statement. you also have failed to notice the "high altitude" in my statement. you have then failed to to realized that the LEOs in AK dont usually operate in the highest altitude where there is an EXTREME cold subzero temperature.

so i guess you are right, my expression is priceless after realizing the fact that some poster on calgun dont know how to read between the lines.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:33 PM
Well, let's be fair here guys. ANY gun can and eventually will malfunction. Glocks, for all their magnificent reliability, are not mechanical objects that exist outside the laws of physics and nature. It's entirely possible, under the right conditions, for a Glock (or any gun for that matter) to fail. Just because you personally may not have seen it happen doesn't it mean it can't. And just because it's never been reported doesn't mean it can't happen either. For example, we all know escorts and escort agencies exist, but you rarely hear about them in the news or the like. You may not hear about it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

thank you sir. this is the point that i am trying to advocate. but some people just don't understand...

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:36 PM
p.s. Also what doesn't make sense with the thermal shock thing is that polymide's thermal conductivity is like .12 W/m-K and steel is like 40 W/m-K. So the heat ain't traveling into the polymer frame, the natural convection + entire surface area of steel frame is probably a better heat path than the .12 W/m-K polymer frame.


ok thats proof enough! LOL

is the fact that polymer will be much more brittle than steel under the same extreme subzero temperature.

Python2
06-15-2010, 3:36 PM
Whoa! this thread is getting a little sideways. Hunk of steel against Tupperware.:D

Black Majik
06-15-2010, 3:37 PM
Whoa! this thread is getting a little sideways. Hunk of steel against Tupperware.:D

Sorry. :D

trob
06-15-2010, 3:38 PM
My first and only .45 is an XD45 compact. I picked it up for HD/SD usage. From this site I'm getting that the 1911 is a superior design and something every gun collection shouldn't be without.

Just curious, but besides the insane customizability, what is so special about them? I saw a beautiful Kimber at the fun store the other day and hurriedly looked on to something else because I was afraid she'd put a spell on me and I'd wind up lusting after her until she was finally mine. Hahaha.


-r.

its more American than apple pie and fits my hand BETTER than a glove.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 3:43 PM
No you didn't. This is your THIRD post on the matter and you still have yet to show me ANY proof that Glocks will fail in cold weather. I mean, it should be EASY to find some reports, right? Glock is used by the Austrian military, and half of Austria is covered by the Alps -- a BIG MOUNTAIN RANGE. It gets COLD in the mountains. So shouldn't there be plenty of reports from the Austrian military of their pistols breaking in the cold weather? Go ahead, show me the reports. I'll wait right here.

why do i bother.... have you actually read what i am trying to say here....

please re-read my post subjectively.

DougJ
06-15-2010, 3:56 PM
Sorry. :D

Yeah, you started it! ;)

The OP said: Educate a noob? What is so special about the 1911?
... and only a few have addressed that. He's gonna have to dig deep to find the nuggets of useful info in a thread full of talk of cold weather and plastic and blah blah...

OP, I asked if you had ever fired a 1911 for a reason. If you haven't then you need to simply ignore everything said here until you do. You'll either like/love it or you wont. It's up to you.

The thing about the 1911 is that everyone and their cousin is building them. Some are great, some are not. There can be no doubt that a weapon design that began service to the U.S. Army almost 100 years ago, and is still in active service today, was very, very right from day one.

cmace22
06-15-2010, 3:57 PM
My first and only .45 is an XD45 compact. I picked it up for HD/SD usage. From this site I'm getting that the 1911 is a superior design and something every gun collection shouldn't be without.

Just curious, but besides the insane customizability, what is so special about them? I saw a beautiful Kimber at the fun store the other day and hurriedly looked on to something else because I was afraid she'd put a spell on me and I'd wind up lusting after her until she was finally mine. Hahaha.


-r.


Feel
Balance
Reliability
Accuracy
History
Beauty
Customization

Most 1911's today are not made like the ones of the past. The modern 1911 is for the most part a tight tuned smooth handgun that may have issues if not maintained properly. The original 1911's were for the most part rattle traps and thus very reliable in varying conditions. The brave men who fought with it in combat didn't have reliability issues. It wasn't until people started trying to make a 1911 a precision weapon that these issues came up. Now this is the standard IMHO unfortunately.

All you have to do is look, feel and shoot a 1911 and you will want one. I own 2..... I also own Glocks!

elSquid
06-15-2010, 3:59 PM
The AK is incredibly reliable no matter how you treat it. It carries lots of rounds, which are larger than the AR's. It is idiot proof and easy to use. It is not an accurate design, but is as accurate as needs be for combat purposes. It does not need to be cleaned and rarely needs any maintenance. It is a rifle for the children, mercenaries, insurgents, and untrained warriors the world over. It is cheaper to mass produce and field. It also maintains a long running military service record in Communist and third world countries the world over.

The AR is very reliable, but it requires regular maintenance and care from it's user to maintain that reliability. It carries enough rounds, though less than the AK. It isn't hard to use, but it is slightly more complex than the AK, and it requires training and trigger time to become truly proficient with. It is a very accurate rifle, well beyond the needs of combat, with less recoil and is faster back on target than the AK. It is the rifle of trained warriors and men who don't mind having to occasionally clean their rifle in trade for maintaining it's superior characteristics in other areas. It is more expensive to mass produce and field. It has been the weapon of choice of the US military for nearly 50 years, and is incredibly customizable and has an aftermarket parts industry that gives you thousands of options.

Now re-read that and substitute "Glock" for "AK" and "1911" for "AR." It will still be 95% accurate, and you'll get the gist. Of course that leaves out the tradition, steel, and patriotism that you can only find in the 1911.

Rumor is that a certain 1st tier unit known for customized 1911s ( rhymes with "belta" :TFH: ) bought a large number of G22s for issue a while back.

:leaving:

-- Michael

1911Operator
06-15-2010, 4:00 PM
1911's rock Glock's socks. I love mine, but I did just get a glock 26! shes still in jail till the 19th. cant wait!!!!!! as for the 45acp caliber I will only shoot them through my 1911's.

HkFan416
06-15-2010, 4:09 PM
Actually he didnt initially... go re-read. He simply said "Prove it."

If you pointed a gun at your face and said" if I pull this trigger, it wont hurt!" Then, I gave you 100 pages of documents that said... yeah it actually MIGHT. I guess youd say "thats not proof." :rolleyes:

Like I said in my post above, I was only trying to help clarify what Tuna Quesadilla was trying to say, and that was to show proof of a Glock frame cracking in sub-zero temperatures.

And Your example of shooting myself in the face is quite bazaar. I don't think that gives a good image of calgunners or firearm owners.

paul0660
06-15-2010, 4:10 PM
You would use a pistol to hammer a nail instead of something like a rock or (god forbid) a hammer?

For the same reason you wear a gun in the shower.........you forgot something.

HkFan416
06-15-2010, 4:15 PM
And OP, the 1911 is probably one of the best designs ever made. Its best characteristics were adapted by manufacturers to put on more modern platforms such as the USP, M&P pistols, etc.

Just remember though, this is calguns, so the rule is:

"You have to have one of each"

locosway
06-15-2010, 4:29 PM
no, i guess my look would be shock. i am surprise at the reading ability of some of the members that post in this thd.

you have failed to notice the word "EXTREME" in my statement. you also have failed to notice the "high altitude" in my statement. you have then failed to to realized that the LEOs in AK dont usually operate in the highest altitude where there is an EXTREME cold subzero temperature.

so i guess you are right, my expression is priceless after realizing the fact that some poster on calgun dont know how to read between the lines.

Reading ability? How can you talk with that atrocious typing?

Here is what you said, word for word.

the extreme temperature rise and fall from firing would cause a thermal shock during operation in sub zero ambient temperature environment

Now, extreme would be what? I'd guess having the pistol at ambient sub-zero temperature and then firing a round would be an extreme temperature change for the barrel. However, I don't see the temperature of the upper metal part of the gun creating enough of a difference in the lower half of the firearm to cause any issues.

In fact, do you know how many rounds you would have to fire through a Glock to cause any serious heat?

kBjUDCyDCuI

There you can clearly see that even a Glock 18 on FA with 298 rounds through it doesn't get hot enough to create a problem for the shooter. Now, even if agencies did issue a Glock 18, it wouldn't be used in this fashion.

So, if you'd again like to show me some proof that Glocks or any other current polymer based handguns would have issues operating anywhere on the Earth, please let me know.

tacticalcity
06-15-2010, 4:32 PM
All kidding and sacrasim aside, getting a Glock over a 1911 can make a lot of sense. It depends on what you are using it for, and which 1911 you are talking about.

The problem with the guestion is that not all 1911s are the same. Your average 1911 is not going to outshoot a Glock or out perform a Glock in any way and yet it is going to cost a LOT more. Your high end 1911 however is going to much smoother and more accurate. The hard part to answer is where does that point begin.

For me the question is, what about a particular brand/model 1911 makes it a better option for a specific purpose than a Glock.

Talking specific purposes:

For concealment, a 1911 is great because the thin frame keeps even a full size 1911 from printing. Glocks and XDs are much thicker and much harder to conceal, though it can be done.

For duty use, the smaller capacity of the 1911 magazines is a legitmate concern. Police officers, especially when in uniform, have giant bullseye on their back. It's not hard to imagine a scenerio for them where the more rounds you have in your magazine could mean the difference between life and death.

For home defense (night stand gun) the Glock has an edge over the 1911 as a general category since most do not have a light rail and those that do cost more than an equivelent model that do not and it has higher magazine capacity. You just were awakend at 3:15am by somebody breaking in. Its pitch black, and they could be anywhere in the house by now. Not hard to imagine magazine capacity and an attached light coming in handy. I also like that I don't have a safety to flip on or off on the Glock. I have enough to worry about in this situation.

Competition: This is difficult to answer since most competition shooters shoot highly customized guns.

Target Shooting just shy of Competition: Depending on the model/brand the 1911 shines here but a Glock does amazingly well.

Plinking: Definately the Glock. You're parting with a lot of coin on that 1911 just to shoot cans.

Talking about Brands and Models:

Your average Springfield or Kimber 1911 is not any more impressive than a Glock yet cost a lot more. Once you break the $1500 mark, that starts to change a little and becomes arguable. Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat and the like are a different story. There will still be times when a Glock is the smarter choice for a given situation. However, shoot one of those guns and you WILL fall in love.

Which do I prefer?:

I like them both. I am under no illusions about a Kimber or Sprinfield being the same thing as a Les Baer or Nighthawk, but I would buy one. 9 times out of 10 I'd pickup the Glock first. But for concealed carry it is difficult to top a 1911, especially when you can't wear a jacket. The only reason I don't currently own a 1911 is I have too many other guns in progress right now (mostly ARs), and I am holding out for the right Ed Brown Special Forces model to come around at a price I can afford.

What about compared to something other than a Glock?:

What makes the 1911 and the Glock winners in my mind are their actions. One trigger pull to learn, a short reset. While a lot of other guns also have only one trigger pull to learn, they usually have an obnoxiously long reset that compromises accuracy. This is my specific complaint about the XD. If not for the reset, I would like it. While its possible to master a DA/SA, I find the DA a liability.

Just my opinion. If yours differs. I'm cool with that.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 4:34 PM
Like I said in my post above, I was only trying to help clarify what Tuna Quesadilla was trying to say, and that was to show proof of a Glock frame cracking in sub-zero temperatures.

And Your example of shooting myself in the face is quite bazaar. I don't think that gives a good image of calgunners or firearms owners.

this is the last posting to what i've said about the temperature then im done.

i interpenetrate his initial ambiguous statement as to proof how can a glock frame crack under extreme temperature rather than give an example (notice in my initial statement i use can rather than will). so i give him an analytical proof.

my point is purely an argument of possibility rather than probability. where just becuase the chances of occurrence is possible, it doesn't mean its probable. unfortunately, i have encounter many people who cannot differentiate the two and uses them interchangeability.

last to OP. the hardest decision is not rather to get a 1911 but which one to get. like HKfan said, no collection is complete w/o a 1911, so figuring out which is the best 1911 that suit your need will be your hardest choice IMO. it took me months of intense research to finally narrow down on my 1911 choices.

ZombieKiller
06-15-2010, 4:34 PM
You'll have to buy one I'd say.....I had to buy one to find out if I was a 1911 person. I am not so I sold it and drank HK kool aid.......and I love the sweetness of this HK kool aid.

You'll either like it or you won't ..... imho

paul0660
06-15-2010, 4:37 PM
Just my opinion. If yours differs. I'm cool with that.

Well put. I personally find a well done DA/SA to be the pinnacle of design...........and that is why they make blonds, brunettes, and redheads...........and everything in between.

tacticalcity
06-15-2010, 4:43 PM
NO MORE REDHEADS...haven't you seen Tomcats? ;)

That's just so hard for me to grasp that the DA/SA action is the part you prefer. I'm curious to know what about it you love so much so I can mull it over in my head and play devils advocate to my current opinion.

I had a terrible time with the DA/SA compared to the Safe-Action. My shooting ability improved by leaps and bounds when I ditched my Beretta 96 for a Glock 23. Of course, this was only noticable because we were shooting controlled pairs from concealment, from the holster, in a fraction of a second on the skills tests. With the da/sa I did not always get both shots off (and yes I did try it with a Sig as well) and when I did I had one grouping high and one grouping low. With the Glock I not only got goth shots off I had one consistant group where I wanted it. I have been a Glock lover and DA/SA hater ever since. During normal range shooting, where there was no pressure and no time limit I did just fine with both.

That said, the Sig is a damn sexy gun. As are CZs and Berettas. As part of an overall collection I would own them in a heart beat. They just aren't my first choice when you only get to have one. Though I do understand why others like them more than I do.

rojocorsa
06-15-2010, 4:43 PM
Most people have already explained what makes old slabsides special. And I agrre. The first time I held one I immediately noticed how good it felt in the hands (this was Kimber Custom II). I have also fired Springfield Armory, Rock Island Armory, Colt, and Nighthawk Custom. They are all prety nice, but I wasnt really that excited for the Colt Mk. IV/Series 80--or maybe I wasnt doing too hot that day. IDK.

It seems that the frame geometry of this fine pistol is just on the money. Many attest that it points naturally for them (myself included). And yes, the triggers are real danged nice. There is nothing wrong with single action.


I have held and fired Glocks 19 and 22. Now, the 22 was my first time ever shooting .40 and I admit it felt a little snappy at the time. I couldnt quite hit the bullseyes that day but I was STILL landing nice group clusters. I was really surprised the first time I picked it up because of its wonderful light weight. Same goes for the G19. I dont have any complaints for the Glock grip angle at all. In fact, I think I want my first pistol to be a Glock 17.

The other pistols I love and will also end up owning along with Glocks and 1911s for sure would be the SIGs. I love how they also feel good in the hand and soak up recoil quite well. I also like their minimal external control layout almost like a Glock.

First gun I ever fired was a Beretta 92 FS. It looks cool as hell but I am not too crazy about slide mounted safeties or the way it handles compared to other handguns I have shot. This is a weapon I would only own for the hell of it.

I guess that the 1911 is just another option out there amidst the sea of handguns. They still work, but they would need some extra TLC IMHO. I mean, if I dropped a Glock, I would not feel as bad as if I were to drop a Colt Gold Cup, for example. Know what I mean? I personally see the 1911 as the fun sports car you drive on weekends and special occasions compared to the "daily driver" that a Glock, XD, SIG, etc. would be.



Having all this, I tend to like most, if not all guns. (Nambu Type 14, Chauchat, Lorcin-Jennings-et al; I am looking at you).

picasso
06-15-2010, 4:48 PM
yeah a Glock to save your life and a 1911 to shoot at paper :D

Yes! Glock can really save life...
The deer was still alive after being shot 5 times at a distance of uhm about ten feet.:eek: This happened in Oakland.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 4:53 PM
Having all this, I tend to like most, if not all guns. (Nambu Type 14, Chauchat, Lorcin-Jennings-et al; I am looking at you).

Nambu pistol... thats the POS military HG of the 1900s.. but i sure dont mind owning a nambu sword pistol just for the fun.

paul0660
06-15-2010, 5:06 PM
That's just so hard for me to grasp that the DA/SA action is the part you prefer. I'm curious to know what about it you love so much so I can mull it over in my head and play devils advocate to my current opinion.


A good DA, as opposed to a DAO, is signifcantly harder to pull, but not onerous. It makes reholstering a breeze, and you don't have to work the safety before the first shot. I have owned DAO and worried about the last little push into a concealment holster every time.

When you think about it, that is why they make DA/SA. I like my CZ75bd a lot for the above reasons. If it is time to shoot someone at close range, that extra 5 pounds of pull on the first shot likely won't matter, it will shoot because the non existent safety is off, and when it is time to put the gun away, it is more safely done. I think grasping it is as good as agreeing with it, and would settle for that.

wu_dot_com
06-15-2010, 5:20 PM
NO MORE REDHEADS...haven't you seen Tomcats? ;)

That's just so hard for me to grasp that the DA/SA action is the part you prefer. I'm curious to know what about it you love so much so I can mull it over in my head and play devils advocate to my current opinion.

I had a terrible time with the DA/SA compared to the Safe-Action. My shooting ability improved by leaps and bounds when I ditched my Beretta 96 for a Glock 23. Of course, this was only noticable because we were shooting controlled pairs from concealment, from the holster, in a fraction of a second on the skills tests. With the da/sa I did not always get both shots off (and yes I did try it with a Sig as well) and when I did I had one grouping high and one grouping low. With the Glock I not only got goth shots off I had one consistant group where I wanted it. I have been a Glock lover and DA/SA hater ever since. During normal range shooting, where there was no pressure and no time limit I did just fine with both.

That said, the Sig is a damn sexy gun. As are CZs and Berettas. As part of an overall collection I would own them in a heart beat. They just aren't my first choice when you only get to have one. Though I do understand why others like them more than I do.

the Berettas are nice, but they dont have the best stock DA or SA pull. i had to do a significant amount of modification to get my 92 up the same level as the trigger pull of a OTB 226.

w/ that being said, you can always improve the DA pull by change the main spring to as light as possible while still getting positive primer strike. on the other hand, its just much easier and practical to tune the glock or XD type trigger rather than tinker with the DA/SA setup for action shooting.

pyro3k2
06-15-2010, 5:29 PM
It's a piece of American history and is an amazing firearm at the same time. I love my Colt 1911 and shoot it more than any other firearm I own...well slightly less than my ar-15. It's like owning a BMW, sure there are other cars out there that do the same thing and probably for less or in some cases do the same thing but even better. However once you've owned one and used one you will see why people keep going back to them and why they are so favored.

Shoot one for yourself next time you are at the range, and cut through all the internet BS, either way you will have your answer.

Bill Carson
06-15-2010, 6:05 PM
in the movie " The Outsiders" the greasers would own Glocks and the socs would own 1911's.

glockaxis
06-15-2010, 6:26 PM
Well, Magnum PI always had a 1911 and that's good enough for me. :D

halon101
06-15-2010, 6:55 PM
I have shot a few and they all have jammed on me, lol I go with my friends and watched them try to hide their jams it's hilarious.

limp wrists?

Black Majik
06-15-2010, 6:59 PM
limp wrists?

There are those who can handle 1911s, and there are those who can't. :D

Donk310
06-15-2010, 7:11 PM
The two things I like most about the 1911? the "19" and the "11".

EWILKE
06-15-2010, 7:52 PM
Tru dat! A 100 year old design, old clunkers.

Get a SIG!

for the price of a decent 1911 you can have both.

Buddhabelly
06-15-2010, 8:11 PM
Very quickly, this thread turned into another 1911 vs Glock urinating contest.

Yawn. :rolleyes:

tuna quesadilla
06-15-2010, 8:30 PM
There are those who can handle 1911s, and there are those who can't. :D

But, but, but, Black Majik! 1911s don't limpwrist! That's what Glocks do! :rolleyes:

ojisan
06-15-2010, 8:46 PM
I smell sarcasm!:rolleyes: Baer Custom!;)

Reduce the demand, the supply goes up and the price goes down.
I know what he's up to!
;)

Donk310
06-15-2010, 8:46 PM
Very quickly, this thread turned into another 1911 vs Glock urinating contest.

Yawn. :rolleyes:

It always does... LOL!

Beetle Bailey
06-15-2010, 9:09 PM
I let an 11-year-old kid shoot my Glock 17 and she limpwristed it!!! :eek: 1911 FTW!! :punk:

But seriously, OP just needs to try a good 1911 and see for himself. You can read and read and read on the internet 'til your eyes bleed but you still won't know what it feels like to shoot a good 1911.

Black Majik
06-15-2010, 9:21 PM
It always does... LOL!

Only after the 1st reply. Ban him!

high_lander
06-15-2010, 9:22 PM
I am taking this shooting tomorrow at lunch:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q67/high_lander/RIA.jpg

I will also be taking this:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q67/high_lander/xd40.jpg

Celebrate diversity!

high_lander
06-15-2010, 9:26 PM
BTW I chose the RIA because it was the cheapest 1911 to get with ambi safety, as I am a lefty shooter. For a Springer I would have had to go with a fully loaded to get the same features.

HCz
06-15-2010, 10:18 PM
A well made 1911 is really beautiful in terms of looks and functionality. Problem is that for a decent one, you have to spend quite a sum of money. There has been issues with hollow point bullets(feeding) and so forth. If you spend $1500 for a gun, most other major brands will be able to get you a very competitive performance.

If you are into guns, especially pistols, you will end up with a 1911 sooner or later. It has its place.

GSG222
06-15-2010, 10:46 PM
Do not expect to hear the ultimate answer - love is art not science.
My first handgun was a 1911. The moment I picked up the KIMBER TLE II RL, I knew it belonged to me. It fit the curve of my palm so well that it excited and soothed every single nerve in my hand. It was such a nice fit that the clerk had to use force to get it off :-)

With that said, I did subsequently purchase a Glock and a revolver. I do love both; but nothing compares to the 1911. It's a personal thing.

Don't follow the hype. Buy it if you love it; and only you can tell whether you love it or not.

Happy spending

dohey
06-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Not only are 1911 generally more expensive, they are much more difficult to find. Meanwhile Glocks and other plastic gun's seem readily available. Personally I'd rather have the BMW than the Honda. But I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. :cool2:

GSG222
06-15-2010, 10:54 PM
And, yes - don't forget the customizations you can do. If you are into that sort of things, 1911 can be a lot of fun. I have spent countless hours customizing/personalizing my Kimber, and I hand-load ammo for the bad boy as well...

afro
06-15-2010, 11:17 PM
The 1911 is one of those guns who's design is timeless. Some other examples are ARs, 10/22s, AKs, and for the polymer framed pistols, the Glock. So much is known about these guns that you can change just about anything about them.

gasol1ne
06-15-2010, 11:25 PM
idk if i ever posted this, but the only time i ever saw a glock jam was when i shot at a competition in the philippines. The competition was held at mountain side in what i would describe as a jungle. It was raining, there was mud everywhere, and the only real cover from the rain for competitors were under trees.

Part of the rules were that the pistols have to be worn on an exposed holster with no magazine in the gun. This caused everyones pistols and loaded magazines to get really wet. Also when you dropped your mag it fell into the mud, so when you would shoot your next round, you would have muddy magazines, and it was impossible to fully clean of all the mud.

So it was only these extreme circumstances (wet pistol, muddy mags, wet bullets) did i see multiple glocks fail with consistency. Failure to feed, and failure to fire were the most common. To be fair though, all pistols had problems that day, even mine (i was shooting a jericho 941 and my friend was shooting a SVI Caspian).

How does this relate to 1911s? Well the gentleman who won that day was shooting a 1911.

tuna quesadilla
06-16-2010, 9:04 AM
Still waiting on those reports....

No you didn't. This is your THIRD post on the matter and you still have yet to show me ANY proof that Glocks will fail in cold weather. I mean, it should be EASY to find some reports, right? Glock is used by the Austrian military, and half of Austria is covered by the Alps -- a BIG MOUNTAIN RANGE. It gets COLD in the mountains. So shouldn't there be plenty of reports from the Austrian military of their pistols breaking in the cold weather? Go ahead, show me the reports. I'll wait right here.

GunLover
06-16-2010, 9:12 AM
The grip, accuracy, trigger pull.

GunLover
06-16-2010, 9:19 AM
The grip, accuracy, trigger pull.

M. D. Van Norman
06-16-2010, 9:49 AM
In my opinion, the enduring popularity of the 1911 series is what has made it so special. This popularity has made it into a pistol that can be easily customized to the individual user. Add the readily improved single-action trigger, and whats not to love?

That said, the 1911-style pistol does require more care and attention than some more modern designs.

Cobrafreak
06-16-2010, 10:51 AM
I used to own a Glock. It shot fine but it was too thick to CC for me. Also the previous owner of my old Glock kept it under his mattress and the composite grip was concave. It never dropped mags properly due to the frame rubbing on the mags. I'll never own another Composite gun of any brand due to this experience. More fragile than metal. My Commender 1911 is better for me in this area. It's metal and it's thin. If a 1911 based gun is jamming and unreliable then the owner has not dealt with the issues properly. Learn why it is causing problems and fix those problems right or take it to a gunsmith. Too few people take the time to learn how things work and why things happen the way they do.

RedFord150
06-16-2010, 11:44 AM
I like the feel of the 1911. My Colt Double Eagle was the only thing I owned close to a 1911 until I bought a DW PM7. Now, I LOVE the old design. The PM7 feels good, it looks good, it shoots better than I do and it cost almost as much as 2 Glocks. It is probably now worth more than I paid for it. I got it right before the prices jumped for the 2010 version.
If I needed to carry a gun for my livelihood, I'd probably buy a Glock because it will take the daily beating and will go bang everytime. I would just not enjoy shooting it as much.
At the end of the day, it is your money. You have no obligation to impress me or anyone else. BUY WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY (or just buy both).

joefreas
06-16-2010, 11:46 AM
When you shoot one you will get it. Basically one of the nicest shooting .45s out there.

flatovercrest
06-16-2010, 12:47 PM
Owned one for about 15 days. Sold it. Felt obsolete in it's controls, general use, field strip procedures, etc. Hated the rear safety the most.
Will never own another one again.
Guy that bought it from me was happy as a clam.
What do they say..one man's beach is another man's castle... or something like that..?

Python2
06-16-2010, 2:51 PM
How does this relate to 1911s? Well the gentleman who won that day was shooting a 1911.

Because 90% of Pinoy shooters shoots 1911 platform:) including yours truly, but my CCW piece in the Philippines is a Glock 19:D and to be fair, my US CCW carry piece is Kimber pro CDP II, or Sig 239 or SW Airweight. Nobody gets jealous:43:

HkFan416
06-16-2010, 4:14 PM
Because 90% of Pinoy shooters shoots 1911 platform:) including yours truly, but my CCW piece in the Philippines is a Glock 19:D and to be fair, my US CCW carry piece is Kimber pro CDP II, or Sig 239 or SW Airweight. Nobody gets jealous:43:

You can own guns in the Philippines? Tell me more.

A324
06-16-2010, 4:36 PM
It was designed by John Browning. We should all own one.

We should all have BAR's too.

John Browning's face should appear on American currency, I salute John Browning's image every day. He is my hero.

A324
06-16-2010, 4:39 PM
When you shoot one you will get it. Basically one of the nicest shooting .45s out there.

Shooting my 1911 is a religious experience. Same goes for my Browning Hi-Power, even Saddam Hussein carried a BHP.

Malmon
06-16-2010, 5:40 PM
A 1911 is for those who enjoy shooting. If you just need a gun that go bang each time you pull the trigger, get those cheap plastic guns.

A good analogy would be comparing it to something we are all familiar with, cars. Glocks and other cheap plastic guns are like hondas or toyotas, they get you from point A to point B. 1911's are like acuras and lexus, not only do they get you from point A to point B, you'll enjoy driving it.

Sunday
06-16-2010, 6:59 PM
A well made 1911 is real nice pistol and all I can say like any other gun you have ttry a nice one and see how you like it , I like them but then I really like the XDs ,The Glock 17,the Colt Gold Python is a nice revolver. Last summer I got to try a 38 super compensated race gun with a Holo sight .The trigger was the lightest best feeling trigger I ever felt there was absolutely no recoil or muzzle rise and it had a 28 round magazine. Even better all the bullets seemed to want to go in the same hole. it was a 1911 . I am still in awe ,it was better than sex and the 28 rounds lasted longer . I asked how much it cost to build one and complete with mags was close to $5,000. I wish I could afford one.

Cyc Wid It
06-16-2010, 7:00 PM
Just about every pistol here should answer your question:

http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=85e4d6f2731114a72686226676b17658