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RollingCode3
06-14-2010, 9:01 PM
I keep hearing "Any person defined as a Peace Officer in the PC can buy off roster handgun." Is that true? What about Correctional Officer and Probation Officer? They are peace officer under p.c 830.5.

Quiet
06-14-2010, 10:03 PM
Yes, they can. [PC 12125(b)(4)]

Penal Code 12125
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(4) The sale or purchase of any pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, if the pistol, revolver, or other firearm is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

El Gato
06-14-2010, 10:13 PM
I keep hearing "Any person defined as a Peace Officer in the PC can buy off roster handgun." Is that true? What about Correctional Officer and Probation Officer? They are peace officer under p.c 830.5.

Probation Officer yes.. they are full time peace officers but have authority to act as peace officers as defined by the chief...have a Volkman Custom I have been carrying all day... off roster... bought it last year... no problemo...the wife now carries an XD compact 5 in 45acp..off roster... got it for her a couple of years ago...

http://www.volkmanncustom.com/

Correctional officers are peace officers only while on duty. The DOJ was just here in Bako and called one of the gun shops out on all of the LCP's the CO's have been buying for off duty carry... the DOJ rep. says that's not legal..."for use in the discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." ...since the dept supplies their guns...and they aren't peace officers off duty...the agent says they aren't supposed to buy the guns..... the local gun store isn't sure what to do about it... underground reg? who knows...but he is trying to get to the bottom of it...he asked me and I wasn't sure...

Hogxtz
06-15-2010, 5:10 AM
C.O. for 24 years. I can't quote P.C., but I know to be true that county level co's such as myself, do in fact have peace officer powers, but they only apply while on duty, thus, they do not qualify. However, state co's are and do have 24 hour peace officer status, they do qualify.

sniper5
06-15-2010, 6:06 AM
So why would a department or the state want to allow an officer to carry a handgun that has not been approved as "drop safe" after being submitted for testing? Seems like a liability issue in the event of an ND to me. If I owned a business I wouldn't sell a LEO anything that the public can't own. If the public needs "drop safe" handguns, microstamping, magazine safeties, loaded chamber indicators, etc for safety and accountability issues then PD should too. The idea that they want to equip PD with "unsafe" firearms that don't need microstamping for accountability purposes seems to have sinister undertones on the surface.

For the record: I think the whole handgun roster thing is a crock, but I also believe what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

FortCourageArmory
06-15-2010, 8:08 AM
So why would a department or the state want to allow an officer to carry a handgun that has not been approved as "drop safe" after being submitted for testing? Seems like a liability issue in the event of an ND to me. If I owned a business I wouldn't sell a LEO anything that the public can't own. If the public needs "drop safe" handguns, microstamping, magazine safeties, loaded chamber indicators, etc for safety and accountability issues then PD should too. The idea that they want to equip PD with "unsafe" firearms that don't need microstamping for accountability purposes seems to have sinister undertones on the surface.

For the record: I think the whole handgun roster thing is a crock, but I also believe what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Now you are seeing why the roster is being challenged in court as unconstitutional. It sets up a two-tier citizenship scheme that says you are a "better" citizen if you are a LEO. You can be trusted with "unsafe" handguns while normal citizens cannot.

LEOs please note...I am NOT bashing your profession (I used to be one myself!), I'm bashing the system that says you are better than I am and more trusted with "dangerous" items.

Ron-Solo
06-15-2010, 8:23 AM
Some of you people must think that LEOs are in favor of the roster by your posts here. You can say that you are not anti-LEO, but your post says differently, plan and simple.

It has nothing to do with second class citizens. It is just a stupid law, no ifs, ands, or buts, about it. The testing and roster has nothing to do with the fact that a gun is "safe", it is simply anti-gunners trying to make it difficult for all of us. We all know that.

Snaps
06-15-2010, 8:29 AM
Some of you people must think that LEOs are in favor of the roster by your posts here. You can say that you are not anti-LEO, but your post says differently, plan and simple.

Same argument gets spewed when anyone disagrees with Israel.

Malthusian
06-15-2010, 8:39 AM
Now you are seeing why the roster is being challenged in court as unconstitutional. It sets up a two-tier citizenship scheme that says you are a "better" citizen if you are a LEO. You can be trusted with "unsafe" handguns while normal citizens cannot.

LEOs please note...I am NOT bashing your profession (I used to be one myself!), I'm bashing the system that says you are better than I am and more trusted with "dangerous" items.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

Sounds like a single tier system from day 1

FF/EMT Nick
06-15-2010, 9:00 AM
Look, I'm a Firefighter/EMT and I work closely with PD/SO all the time. I find 97% of them to be great guys and gals who do a tough, dangerous, and thankless job and do it with integrity and dignity.

Having said that, the laws that are set up currently do make a different class of citizen out of them. This is not their fault, but it is unfair. As a result, even though some of them fight just as hard as the rest of us on 2A issues, they don't "REALLY" feel the sting of CA anti 2A stance. They can buy off roster handguns, hi cap mags, and I believe they can even buy "AW" that the general public can't (I'm not real clear on this last point, do they to have BB or Prince 50 on their EBR?)

So until SCOTUS rules on McDonald, and we start changing who we elect to office in this state, thing's will remain the same as they are now.

Ron-Solo
06-15-2010, 9:14 AM
Well, I have 4 rifles with BB devices on them. Yes, I can buy hi-cap magazines, but I can use them in my rifles. I have numerous 30 rd magazines that I've had since the 70's & 80's that I can't use in my current rifle.

Do the laws need to be changed? ABSOLUTELY

Can rank & file LE impact it? Not much. Even our unions follow an "anti" philosophy.

Is it fair? NO

Is it our fault? NO

Does driving a bigger wedge between LE and the gun owning public help OUR cause? NO

Malthusian
06-15-2010, 9:16 AM
LEO's cannot own assault rifles ( as defined by the state )

Therefore why can they buy "unsafe" handguns" ?

FF/EMT Nick
06-15-2010, 9:23 AM
Thank you guys for the correction on the AW's, good info to know.

And to be clear, I am in no way, trying to drive a wedge between law enforcement and general public, I'm just stateing the situation as I see it.


Just out of curiosity, do they use BB on their duty rifles?

chuckdc
06-15-2010, 9:23 AM
Can rank & file LE impact it? Not much. Even our unions follow an "anti" philosophy.

Is it fair? NO

Is it our fault? NO

Does driving a bigger wedge between LE and the gun owning public help OUR cause? NO

Well, that sounds like a place that LEOs can start to get busy on. Get the unions to change their tune. If the leadership won't change, vote them out.

CSACANNONEER
06-15-2010, 9:27 AM
Well, I have 4 rifles with BB devices on them. Yes, I can buy hi-cap magazines, but I can use them in my rifles. I have numerous 30 rd magazines that I've had since the 70's & 80's that I can't use in my current rifle.
Do the laws need to be changed? ABSOLUTELY

Can rank & file LE impact it? Not much. Even our unions follow an "anti" philosophy.

Is it fair? NO

Is it our fault? NO

Does driving a bigger wedge between LE and the gun owning public help OUR cause? NO

But, you can do a featureless build and use them. The way your non-AW rifles are legally configured is your choice. So, if you want to use your old mags, you can still build a rifle that can legally accept them.

I'm pretty sure that you were aware of this but, I wanted to make sure that some newbie, reading your post, did not think that it was always illegal to use +10 round mags in new rifles.

elSquid
06-15-2010, 10:00 AM
LEO's cannot own assault rifles ( as defined by the state )

Therefore why can they buy "unsafe" handguns" ?

Because that's the law.

Don't expect firearms law in CA to be logically defensible or internally consistent. Consider that it's a patchwork of 'feel good' legislation that has been modified over time.

Why is a Mini14 with a pistol grip an AW, but a standard stocked one is ok? Because that's the law.

Why are DAO revolvers subject to the roster, but dimensionally compliant SA revolvers are exempt? Because that's the law.

Why is a 11 round magazine illegal to sell, but a 10 round is ok? Because that's the law.

Why can LEOs buy off roster handguns in a dealer sale, but the rest of us can't? Because that's the law.

-- Michael

Malthusian
06-15-2010, 10:01 AM
Then the law needs to be changed

ke6guj
06-15-2010, 10:13 AM
LEO's cannot own assault rifles ( as defined by the state )

Therefore why can they buy "unsafe" handguns" ?well, LEOs can buy new Assault Weapons. They just need a love letter from the dept. With that love letter, they can buy one and then register it.

Maestro Pistolero
06-15-2010, 11:16 AM
My brother is a Lieutenant in SoCal. He must have a letter of authorization on department letterhead to buy anything off-roster.

scootergmc
06-15-2010, 11:25 AM
My brother is a Lieutenant in SoCal. He must have a letter of authorization on department letterhead to buy anything off-roster.

According to? His department? If so, they're mistaken, because the state doesn't require it.

ke6guj
06-15-2010, 11:26 AM
My brother is a Lieutenant in SoCal. He must have a letter of authorization on department letterhead to buy anything off-roster.there is no CADOJ requirement that he have letterhead to buy an off-roster handgun.

Policy Change Regarding State Exemptions for Authorized Peace Officers

Effective immediately, peace officers who have legislative authority to carry and use firearms may, without a letter signed by the head of their agency or the agency head's designee, purchase non-rostered handguns and/or large capacity magazines. The peace officer must present a valid peace officer identification card and the dealer must retain a copy of the identification card on file. (PC 12132 & 12133). A letter is still required from the head of the agency to exempt the peace officer from the ten day waiting period. (PC 12078). http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo.php


Now, his LEA may have a policy that they can't, but I don't know how enforcable that would be.

CSACANNONEER
06-15-2010, 11:38 AM
My brother is a Lieutenant in SoCal. He must have a letter of authorization on department letterhead to buy anything off-roster.

He is a Lieutenant and he doesn't understand the laws????? It is either just his department's policy or he mistakenly thinks that all "off-roster" firearms are considered AWs and need Dept. letterhead and a pre-approved AW permit to purchase.

Maestro Pistolero
06-15-2010, 12:14 PM
I believe the FFls he has dealt with are requesting the letters for CYA purposes.

ke6guj
06-15-2010, 12:18 PM
I believe the FFls he has dealt with are requesting the letters for CYA purposes.in that case, I think he needs to print out that CADOJ webpage and bring it to the FFL. And if the FFL won't accept that, then call CADOJ on the spot and have them tell the FFL that.

Librarian
06-15-2010, 12:20 PM
I believe the FFls he has dealt with are requesting the letters for CYA purposes.

This has me conflicted.

On the one hand, I want to say he needs a new FFL - the LEO exemption is right there in the DROS software.

On the other hand, I have to wonder what is running through the minds of DOJ inspectors, and what are they telling CA FFLs, that causes that particular CYA behavior.