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View Full Version : McDonald, UN arms treaty, and the Constitution?


BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 11:13 AM
2 weeks! - (even a broken clock is right twice a day) - BTW, can someone point me to where this '2 weeks' thing all got started? I would love to read that story.

As you can tell, I'm optimistic of McDonald. I believe it will usher in a new era in freedom for this Country. And yet, I am disheartened by the notion that we could enter into a treaty with the UN, which would essentially ban all firearms (except bolt action/non simi-auto I think).

Is this even a possibility? Could the US Congress ignore the constitution, and essentially ban all guns, even after we have the constitutional right brought about by Heller and McDonald?

Unfortunately, I think this is inevitable. I don't know if it will happen now, in a few year, or in 50 years, but I think there will be a world wide ban at some point.

Let me know your thoughts, and please tell me that there are ways to impeach, tar and feather, and imprison those in Congress that ratify such a treaty, were it ever to come to fruition.

OleCuss
06-14-2010, 11:30 AM
At this time, just don't worry about the UN arms treaty. If we as voters do a half-ways reasonable job it's just not going to be an issue for us.

The treaty will be negotiated in 2012 and has to be adopted by consensus (a pretty high bar) and then be ratified by the Senate (not happening with the current Senate and likely not with the one elected this fall), and even then it likely would have severe problems in the Supreme Court.

Worry about something else.

CEDaytonaRydr
06-14-2010, 11:33 AM
BTW, can someone point me to where this '2 weeks' thing all got started?

Ever seen "Total Recall"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V17duGlHEYY


V17duGlHEYY

SKSer
06-14-2010, 11:36 AM
I really don't think the american people would stand for that, people now a days are so passive and let our representatives crap on us left and right, but i truly think that if they did a full blown ban of firearms, you would really see people stand up and there would be a major issue, and more importantly, I think the government knows that. (holy poop! what a run on sentence)

to add, if it were that easy, the Government would already do that, but they know it is not, thats why they try to slowly chip away, once piece at a time.

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 11:51 AM
Thanks for lifting my spirits. Knowing now that it's not until 2012 eases my mind. I really don't think the Senate at that time will allow such a thing, but if it was the current Senate, then I don't know if I'd be so sure.

I know it wouldn't be 'easy' to do, but I could still see them try. They've already rewritten the constitution without people really even noticing, so what's to say they wouldn't do it again?

But I think you're right. There would be major protests/and possibly even the start of a revolution if they started such a thing.

And thanks for the link on the 2 weeks. That was great. Haven't seen that in a very long time, so I didn't remember that.

Barabas
06-14-2010, 12:02 PM
Sorry to burst the bubble guys, you missed out on all the fun. I was just a lurker back then and this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43444) is the earliest reference I could find to the incident that spawned "two weeks." Hopefully Wes will chime in with a link to his original retelling, I know it's out there.

Ever seen "Total Recall"?



Thanks for lifting my spirits. Knowing now that it's not until 2012 eases my mind. I really don't think the Senate at that time will allow such a thing, but if it was the current Senate, then I don't know if I'd be so sure.

I know it wouldn't be 'easy' to do, but I could still see them try. They've already rewritten the constitution without people really even noticing, so what's to say they wouldn't do it again?

But I think you're right. There would be major protests/and possibly even the start of a revolution if they started such a thing.

And thanks for the link on the 2 weeks. That was great. Haven't seen that in a very long time, so I didn't remember that.

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 12:12 PM
Sorry to burst the bubble guys, you missed out on all the fun. I was just a lurker back then and this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43444) is the earliest reference I could find to the incident that spawned "two weeks." Hopefully Wes will chime in with a link to his original retelling, I know it's out there.

Nice

OleCuss
06-14-2010, 12:24 PM
Thanks for lifting my spirits. Knowing now that it's not until 2012 eases my mind. I really don't think the Senate at that time will allow such a thing, but if it was the current Senate, then I don't know if I'd be so sure.

I know it wouldn't be 'easy' to do, but I could still see them try. They've already rewritten the constitution without people really even noticing, so what's to say they wouldn't do it again?

But I think you're right. There would be major protests/and possibly even the start of a revolution if they started such a thing.

And thanks for the link on the 2 weeks. That was great. Haven't seen that in a very long time, so I didn't remember that.

The current Senate could be counted on to squash that sucker flat. It wouldn't even be a close call. Harry Reid has been consistently friendly to pro-RKBA causes and he is the Senate Majority Leader. Note that things like a reversal of the blanket ban on firearms in National Parks disappeared on his watch? I think the next Senate may be even more friendly to our rights.

But do take note of the fact that things are set up so that when the final negotiation takes place in 2012 the requirement is for a consensus. That means that every last nation participating in the negotiating conference has to agree with the final text or it doesn't pass. It seems unlikely that such consensus will be achieved.

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 12:29 PM
The current Senate could be counted on to squash that sucker flat. It wouldn't even be a close call. Harry Reid has been consistently friendly to pro-RKBA causes and he is the Senate Majority Leader. Note that things like a reversal of the blanket ban on firearms in National Parks disappeared on his watch? I think the next Senate may be even more friendly to our rights.

But do take note of the fact that things are set up so that when the final negotiation takes place in 2012 the requirement is for a consensus. That means that every last nation participating in the negotiating conference has to agree with the final text or it doesn't pass. It seems unlikely that such consensus will be achieved.

Good to know. I didn't know that Reid was 2A friendly. And it's also good to know that it has to be a complete consensus.


Say for the off chance that something like this was agreed upon, would it be relatively easy to overturn? Whether with a new Senate, or through SCOTUS? Would it even have to be followed by the citizens of the US, since it is so blatantly unconstitutional?

OleCuss
06-14-2010, 12:42 PM
Good to know. I didn't know that Reid was 2A friendly. And it's also good to know that it has to be a complete consensus.


Say for the off chance that something like this was agreed upon, would it be relatively easy to overturn? Whether with a new Senate, or through SCOTUS? Would it even have to be followed by the citizens of the US, since it is so blatantly unconstitutional?

Interesting questions and some might be best answered by a lawyer.

I don't think there is even a mechanism for overturning things in the UN. Doesn't really matter all that much since if violating a UN or other treaty is seen as anti-freedom or anti-American there is no penalty.

If the thing passed in the UN and were ratified by the Senate, I believe the Senate can go back and abrogate the treaty.

As to whether citizens would have to follow such a ban? I believe that under our constitution we needn't follow any law, regulation, or treaty which the citizen believes to be at variance with the Constitution. Unfortunately, the government doesn't necessarily agree with me so if those with the power don't like your non-compliance they will lock you up or kill you. In this case, however, there'd likely be tens of millions calling up the chief or the sheriff and advising that if they try to take our weapons there's going to be some serious lead flying. At least in some counties the sheriff simply will ignore the enforcement orders.

Remember also that the Army is made of up mostly conservative people so you're not going to have much luck getting them to enforce certain orders.

That's why the fascists have opted for a progressive erosion of our liberties. They know that a dramatic governmental grab for our throats will result in painful consequences for them. It's much more difficult to rally an opposition to gradual subjugation.

stitchnicklas
06-14-2010, 12:45 PM
arizona and texas will never give up gun rights that's a guarantee so the un ban will be a lame duck nada thing i believe

winnre
06-14-2010, 12:48 PM
Maybe someone can post the best and worst possible scenario outcomes here?

bulgron
06-14-2010, 12:48 PM
2 weeks! - (even a broken clock is right twice a day) - BTW, can someone point me to where this '2 weeks' thing all got started? I would love to read that story.



The earliest I remember the "2 weeks!" thing was during the long wait for the Heller decision. Almost every day someone would ask when Heller would come out, and it got so that the reply was always "2 weeks!" (because nobody really knew when it would come out.)

That said, I'm betting that the McDonald decision will be released on the 28th of this month, so we're into two weeks territory now for real.

bulgron
06-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Maybe someone can post the best and worst possible scenario outcomes here?

Best and worse scenarios for what? McDonald or the UN Treaty?

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 12:51 PM
Maybe someone can post the best and worst possible scenario outcomes here?

Sorry, but I have to...

Best - we're all free as to the original intent of the constitution, and we all live happily ever after.

Worst - we're all dead. Oh, and we were tortured first.

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 12:53 PM
Best and worse scenarios for what? McDonald or the UN Treaty?

I think it would be for the UN Treaty, since McDonald has little baring on this, since Heller is Federal right and is already decided.

jdberger
06-14-2010, 1:01 PM
"Two Weeks" was the rallying call for folks desperately trying to get an OLL in the early heady days of 2005. Group buys of Stag, Lauer and other more esoteric lower recievers involved much secrecy, passwords, vetting and secret handshakes. We were sure that the lowers we were buying would be put on the AW list at any moment.

Apparently, some DOJ staffer mentioned to someone - and that someone repeated that they would be listed in "two weeks".

As you may have guessed, the lowers were never listed. In fact, the good folks of CGN (now mostly Board Members of CGF) made sure that the AG could never expand the AW list.

Somewhere, floating around on this site is a brief retelling of those days by tenpercentfirearms.

It's funny now, but it was an important milestone in our history. It truly marked the beginning of the modern version of Calguns, the birth of CGF and the awakening of California's gun community. It was a seminal event. ;)

bwiese
06-14-2010, 1:06 PM
As you may have guessed, the lowers were never listed. In fact, the good folks of CGN (now mostly Board Members of CGF) made sure that the AG could never expand the AW list.

Well, actually we helped in the periphery and atmospherics of that drive but the NRA boys really drove a bulldozer thru that.

Where Calguns helped was the unrelenting pressure from the marketplace - when you start gettin' 100K rifles it makes things like buybacks impossible.

OleCuss
06-14-2010, 1:26 PM
Sorry, but I have to...

Best - we're all free as to the original intent of the constitution, and we all live happily ever after.

Worst - we're all dead. Oh, and we were tortured first.

If you take a look at the coming tax bills it is clear that the torture has already started. So I take it the scenario which is becoming reality is the "Worst - we're all dead." one?

BlindRacer
06-14-2010, 2:09 PM
"Two Weeks" was the rallying call for folks desperately trying to get an OLL in the early heady days of 2005. Group buys of Stag, Lauer and other more esoteric lower recievers involved much secrecy, passwords, vetting and secret handshakes. We were sure that the lowers we were buying would be put on the AW list at any moment.

Apparently, some DOJ staffer mentioned to someone - and that someone repeated that they would be listed in "two weeks".

As you may have guessed, the lowers were never listed. In fact, the good folks of CGN (now mostly Board Members of CGF) made sure that the AG could never expand the AW list.

Somewhere, floating around on this site is a brief retelling of those days by tenpercentfirearms.

It's funny now, but it was an important milestone in our history. It truly marked the beginning of the modern version of Calguns, the birth of CGF and the awakening of California's gun community. It was a seminal event. ;)

Thanks for the story. Would have been nice to be here at that time, and been in the midst of it all.

thayne
06-14-2010, 2:41 PM
Thanks for the story. Would have been nice to be here at that time, and been in the midst of it all.

Yes it would! Unfortunately I was fast asleep back then, but im wide awake now :cool: