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View Full Version : A Long-gun & a pistol, can they be DROS together?


Jicko
03-27-2006, 11:27 PM
A Long-gun & a pistol, can they be DROS together, in order to save $25 DROS fee?

A friend of mine is looking into getting a Glock, a shotgun and a couple of lowers, does he have to do 3 DROS? Or is 1 DROS good enough?

C.G.
03-27-2006, 11:30 PM
No. You can DROS multiple rifles, but not handguns, or handguns with rifles. Your friend will have to do 2 DROSes, at least according to my FFL.

ambiguous216
03-27-2006, 11:31 PM
My local FFL informed me that you have to DROS handguns separate from long guns. So in your friend's case you would have to DROS twice.

xenophobe
03-27-2006, 11:56 PM
If you DROS a pistol, a long gun can also be delivered on that DROS...

C.G.
03-28-2006, 12:03 AM
If you DROS a pistol, a long gun can also be delivered on that DROS...

Xeno,
next time I do a multiple I am driving all the way up to your place; the local shops here just have their own rules, I guess.

kantstudien
03-28-2006, 12:16 AM
If you DROS a pistol, a long gun can also be delivered on that DROS...

Please explain, do you mean that if you did two DROSes (one pistol, one long gun), then you may pick them up at the same time? Because a long gun certainly may not be delivered simply because a handgun DROS was filled out ten days prior.:confused:

C.G.
03-28-2006, 12:22 AM
What he meant was one DROS for a rifle(s) and a handgun.

xenophobe
03-28-2006, 12:31 AM
A Pistol DROS is actually TWO things:

1)Registration of a particular Handgun
2)Eligibility/Background check to purchase a Firearm

The 2nd part of a Pistol DROS is sufficient for aquiring ONE handgun and as many long guns as one wishes to pick up on the delivery date after the 10 day waiting period. A rifle DROS is not necessary if a DROS on a pistol has been performed, if they are going to be delivered on the same date. That is how we do it, how we have done it in the past, and how we will continue to do it. Past and future ATF and DOJ audits notwithstanding. We have never been told otherwise.

Also, if you notice when you do a Multiple Handgun Private Party Transfer, additional handguns after the first are charged at a lower rate. Why? Because the Eligibility/Background Check to purchase a firearm has already been paid for.

EDIT: A dealer CAN make you pay for additional DROSes, and if he does, ask for a copy of each. If he can't provide them, he's only adding the extra DROS fees to his profit margin. And, some dealers will charge you a DROS fee for each long gun. That is certainly a move for profit, and nothing else.

tenpercentfirearms
03-28-2006, 5:22 AM
I charge $25 for one handgun DROS and $25 for your unlimited long gun DROS. I was under the impression that handguns are their own deal. I don't like to have discrepencies from what the DROS paperwork says. Do you just add the other guns to the 4473? SJGE sure does a lot of things that seem to be contradictory to what the DOJ implies. I will have to start calling the DOJ up and asking them about these things and see what I can get out of them. Of course they are motivated by a profit margin, so I don't expect to hear solid answers.

Pablo
03-28-2006, 12:36 PM
Xeno,
next time I do a multiple I am driving all the way up to your place; the local shops here just have their own rules, I guess.


That's why I like to do business with them!!! They know the law and charge you a fair price.
:)

kantstudien
03-28-2006, 8:22 PM
Well, I am not sure about "knowing the law" because if they are the only guys doing this, I would not assume that every other dealer in the entire state of Kali is confused (could be though).

However, if this is true, then this would have serious benefits for a lot of people. Seriously awesome benefits!

Please find your source to back up your practice, I would be happy to inform my FFL of his ability (or lack thereof) to deliver long guns without an additional $25.

xenophobe
03-28-2006, 9:25 PM
Please find your source to back up your practice, I would be happy to inform my FFL of his ability (or lack thereof) to deliver long guns without an additional $25.

We've probably sold around 100,000 firearms in the past 21 years. I can't be bothered to find any sources for you, sorry. Come into the store. I'll write you up for a handgun and as many long guns as you want on your pistol dros.

http://www.gunexchange.com

Please, find me a source that says I can't do this. DOJ has audited us in the past, it's never been a problem before. Why would it be a problem for us now? *shrug*

socalguns
03-29-2006, 12:09 AM
Well, I am not sure about "knowing the law" because if they are the only guys doing this, I would not assume that every other dealer in the entire state of Kali is confused (could be though).

However, if this is true, then this would have serious benefits for a lot of people. Seriously awesome benefits!

Please find your source to back up your practice, I would be happy to inform my FFL of his ability (or lack thereof) to deliver long guns without an additional $25.
Go to http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ and read, and find the proof you need.
You'll find nothing requireing what you describe.

Then go and read http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/

I know of one FFL who limited the number of guns he would
transfer to three, because that's how many fit on the form.
He apparently did this for years, until it was pointed out to him
how to proceed if transfering more guns than fit on the form.
The instructions were printed on page 4, item 12

If more than three firearms are involved in a transaction, the information required by section D, questions 24-26, must be provided for these firearms on a separate sheet of paper, which must be attached to the ATF F 4473 covering the transaction.


There are some FFLs happy to collect EXTRA taxes for the DOJ while collecting EXTRA fees for themselves. :eek: :eek:
Shocking but true

socalguns
03-29-2006, 12:22 AM
I charge $25 for one handgun DROS and $25 for your unlimited long gun DROS. I was under the impression that handguns are their own deal. I don't like to have discrepencies from what the DROS paperwork says. Do you just add the other guns to the 4473? SJGE sure does a lot of things that seem to be contradictory to what the DOJ implies. I will have to start calling the DOJ up and asking them about these things and see what I can get out of them. Of course they are motivated by a profit margin, so I don't expect to hear solid answers.
What the DOJ implies!?!?!
Stop double charging people.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#7
. What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?

All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

(PC Section 12071)


You can read up on 12071 at
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12070.htm

It doesn't a say handgun purchase needs a separate DROS process. Of course the DOJ won't object, they're making money.

kantstudien
03-29-2006, 1:44 AM
It doesn't a say handgun purchase needs a separate DROS process. Of course the DOJ won't object, they're making money.


You do mean "long gun" purchase right? Because a handgun purchase does require its own DROS since it asks for the serial number twice during the DROS process.

Anyways, I will have to look into this, looks promising.

socalguns
03-29-2006, 4:41 AM
You do mean "long gun" purchase right? Because a handgun purchase does require its own DROS since it asks for the serial number twice during the DROS process.

Anyways, I will have to look into this, looks promising.

It asks for the serial number twice? What is it?

No, i don't mean long gun purchase.
Take a look at
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf
Its not the best designed form, but
where it says FIREARM TYPE, you'll see 2 CHECKBOXES
( handgun/longgun(s) ).
Checkboxes are used when mutiple choices are allowed.
Radioboxes (circles) are used when only one choice is allowed.
So when conducting a dealer sale of a handgun and a rifle,
you check both boxes,
and enter 1 for the number of long guns,
and pay for a single DROS.

The confusion over this might arise from
the new (to me) DROS computer software.
https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf
which doesn't (seem to me, after reading the manual, to) address this common lawful scenario.
Some might call it a simple oversight, others call it propaganda.

kantstudien
03-29-2006, 12:47 PM
It asks for the serial number twice? What is it?

No, i don't mean long gun purchase.
Take a look at
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf
Its not the best designed form, but
where it says FIREARM TYPE, you'll see 2 CHECKBOXES
( handgun/longgun(s) ).
Checkboxes are used when mutiple choices are allowed.
Radioboxes (circles) are used when only one choice is allowed.
So when conducting a dealer sale of a handgun and a rifle,
you check both boxes,
and enter 1 for the number of long guns,
and pay for a single DROS.

"It" should be fairly clear to anyone that I mean the DROS process. I do not know how that can be ambiguous here.

It is fairly obvious you have never processed a real DROS, so I am not sure if you realize that a DROS is not done on a sheet of paper. The sheet of paper you referenced is not the DROS, it is something the purchaser fills out only in private party transfers and also when the computer is offline for some reason. Your ten days do not start because you filled out a sheet of paper, it starts when the information is electronically submitted via computer to the DOJ.

The computer asks you to select one box, depending upon which type of firearm is being purchased. If you are purchasing a handgun, the computer prompts for the serial number twice to make sure you did not F-it up the first time. So if the DROS requires the serial number of a handgun to be entered twice, what makes you think you can fill out a long gun DROS (which does not ask for serial numbers) and pick up a handgun along with it? DOJ would not have any knowledge of your handgun purchase or the serial number of your handgun, which is a requirement that even FFLs have to do for their own personal guns. Your *** would get shut down by the DOJ if you were an FFL doing this!

Now if one is able to deliver long guns with a handgun DROS, then that would make sense (logically). But then again, gun laws do not make "sense," they simply "are."

xenophobe
03-29-2006, 7:01 PM
Are you even a dealer? Do you have a retail storefront? Have you ever been audited? How many times have you been audited? How long have you been a dealer?

Please show me somewhere, anywhere in either PC or CCR, or even an example where this is not allowed. Just one circumstance.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of transfers where we have done this and passed DOJ audit.

kantstudien
03-29-2006, 7:41 PM
There are hundreds, if not thousands of transfers where we have done this and passed DOJ audit.

Done what? Delivered handguns with a long gun DROS? Or delivered long guns on a handgun DROS?

And because you passed a DOJ audit does not necessarily mean this is acceptable to DOJ, it could simply mean that the DROS paperwork they decided to randomly select for audit did not have long guns delivered on handgun DROSes so the issue never came up.

And no, I am not a dealer. I have worked for three different FFLs however, and none of them would have found this method acceptable. Of course, none of them would have touched off-list lowers either! ;)

Trader Jack
03-29-2006, 9:54 PM
We've probably sold around 100,000 firearms in the past 21 years. I can't be bothered to find any sources for you, sorry. Come into the store. I'll write you up for a handgun and as many long guns as you want on your pistol dros.

http://www.gunexchange.com

Please, find me a source that says I can't do this. DOJ has audited us in the past, it's never been a problem before. Why would it be a problem for us now? *shrug*

Perhaps the DOJ should audit you and bring a pad lock along with them.
!00,000 guns in 21 years!! There is a four letter word to describe that statement and you are full of it.

That figure would average out to 13.5 guns PER DAY neither Reeds or Trader Sports averages that much per day and you are small potato's compared to either of them.

kantstudien
03-29-2006, 10:18 PM
I think he meant that as hyperbole. ;)

xenophobe
03-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Done what? Delivered handguns with a long gun DROS? Or delivered long guns on a handgun DROS?

What part of my previous posts have you failed to understand my english? We deliver long guns on pistol DROSes. Delivering a pistol on a long gun dros is illegal.


Perhaps the DOJ should audit you and bring a pad lock along with them.
!00,000 guns in 21 years!! There is a four letter word to describe that statement and you are full of it.

That figure would average out to 13.5 guns PER DAY neither Reeds or Trader Sports averages that much per day and you are small potato's compared to either of them.


Go away. Shoo. You really do know nothing. lol Go troll arfcom or something.

socalguns
03-29-2006, 10:34 PM
"It" should be fairly clear to anyone that I mean the DROS process. I do not know how that can be ambiguous here.

It is fairly obvious you have never processed a real DROS, so I am not sure if you realize that a DROS is not done on a sheet of paper. The sheet of paper you referenced is not the DROS, it is something the purchaser fills out only in private party transfers and also when the computer is offline for some reason. Your ten days do not start because you filled out a sheet of paper, it starts when the information is electronically submitted via computer to the DOJ.

The computer asks you to select one box, depending upon which type of firearm is being purchased. If you are purchasing a handgun, the computer prompts for the serial number twice to make sure you did not F-it up the first time. So if the DROS requires the serial number of a handgun to be entered twice, what makes you think you can fill out a long gun DROS (which does not ask for serial numbers) and pick up a handgun along with it? DOJ would not have any knowledge of your handgun purchase or the serial number of your handgun, which is a requirement that even FFLs have to do for their own personal guns. Your *** would get shut down by the DOJ if you were an FFL doing this!

Now if one is able to deliver long guns with a handgun DROS, then that would make sense (logically). But then again, gun laws do not make "sense," they simply "are."

The "DROS process", it, is not the computer software,
that you use to complete a DROS transaction.
The software the DOJ wants you to use is called
(MCI) DROS Entry System,
and its not the only way to complete the DROS.
The software is not the law.

xenophobe
03-29-2006, 10:38 PM
The "DROS process", it, is not the computer software,
that you use to complete a DROS transaction.
The software the DOJ wants you to use is called
(MCI) DROS Entry System,
and its not the only way to complete the DROS.
The software is not the law.

Actually, it is now the only way to complete a DROS. DOJ or MCI will not accept telephone transmissions. They must be done over the internet. It's been like this for a couple of years now.

socalguns
03-29-2006, 10:42 PM
Which three FFLs have you worked for?
I'm thinking before I decide to boycott (might be a non-issue)
these clowns some written correspondence with the DOJ might
change their minds.
This is too important to let FFLs screw up.

kantstudien
03-29-2006, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=xenophobe] What part of my previous posts have you failed to understand my english? We deliver long guns on pistol DROSes. Delivering a pistol on a long gun dros is illegal. QUOTE]

I have understood your "English" until the part where you agreed with socalguns statement that "It doesn't a say handgun purchase needs a separate DROS process."

To this post you replied "There are hundreds, if not thousands of transfers where we have done this and passed DOJ audit."

So my question was to clarify what "this" you had done in the past. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

And socalguns, the "software" actually is the law, unless your computer is down, and you can only call in a DROS during certain hours only until your computer is running again. Maybe you should have some first-hand knowledge before talking out your piehole?

Here are three FFLs you can "boycott" :

B&B
Turner's
Fowler's/Stockade
:D

(p.s. I've never worked at any of these places, but you can feel free to boycott them, I am sure they won't mind losing your business)

socalguns
03-29-2006, 10:52 PM
Actually, it is now the only way to complete a DROS. DOJ or MCI will not accept telephone transmissions. They must be done over the internet. It's been like this for a couple of years now.
Yes, sorry about that, thats a typo.
Its only been that way since 2003.
The law on when you have to complete
a DROS hasn't changed during that time.

socalguns
03-29-2006, 11:03 PM
And socalguns, the "software" actually is the law, unless your computer is down, and you can only call in a DROS during certain hours only until your computer is running again. Maybe you should have some first-hand knowledge before talking out your piehole?
That's just brilliant.
You should work for the DOJ.


Here are three FFLs you can "boycott" :
B&B
Turner's
Fowler's/Stockade
:D

(p.s. I've never worked at any of these places, but you can feel free to boycott them, I am sure they won't mind losing your business)
I'm glad to boycott

xenophobe
03-30-2006, 12:02 AM
So my question was to clarify what "this" you had done in the past. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

I thought I was being clear. My humble apologies...


...the "software" actually is the law, unless your computer is down, and you can only call in a DROS during certain hours only until your computer is running again.

When our DROS machine was down, and when their site is down, we've been summarily told to "wait till it's back up" and they wouldn't accept a DROS over the phone. We just photocopy the license and keep a DROS worksheet so we can DROS when the site goes back up.

Drifter721
03-30-2006, 3:37 AM
San Jose Gun Exchange and xenophobe (I'm assuming you speak on behalf of the SJGE owners),

On our MCI DROS Entry System, there is no place in the HANDGUN DEALER SALE online form that allows for a simultaneous "long gun" entry or transfer. How is the DOJ supposed to know there are long guns included on this particular HANDGUN DEALER SALE?

tenpercentfirearms
03-30-2006, 5:23 AM
They would know when they look at your 4473 and see long guns on it. :D

I might just call them this morning on the way to work and feel them out. I have a feeling I know what they are going to say as they want their money.

Drifter721
03-30-2006, 7:05 AM
They would know when they look at your 4473 and see long guns on it. :D

I might just call them this morning on the way to work and feel them out. I have a feeling I know what they are going to say as they want their money.

The DOJ has nothing to do with the 4473. That is the federal form. The way the DOJ system is set up, you cannot do handguns and long guns together on the online DEALER HANDGUN SALE template. I would like to know how the San Jose Gun Exchange is accomplishing this?

xenophobe
03-30-2006, 7:09 AM
San Jose Gun Exchange and xenophobe (I'm assuming you speak on behalf of the SJGE owners),

On our MCI DROS Entry System, there is no place in the HANDGUN DEALER SALE online form that allows for a simultaneous "long gun" entry or transfer. How is the DOJ supposed to know there are long guns included on this particular HANDGUN DEALER SALE?

Anyways, I'm tired of explaining this... what are the reasons why I must argue the legality of a non-issue?

Either your dealer will or won't do this. We will, and if you can't handle the fact that your dealer will not, please take this up with your dealer. I cannot tell the businesses you frequent how to conduct their affairs, I can only state that we will, it is not a problem for us, and it never has been. Ever.

I am a law abiding citizen, I work at a legitimate retail store, and I will not break the law. Being in business over 20 years, and yes, having approximately 50,000 firearms pass through our FFL during this time while passing numerous audits from DOJ or ATF would give me the impression that our store policies are in fact legal. Personally, I find the implication that I'm doing something illegal very offensive.

EDIT: due to slight exaggeration lol :p

Drifter721
03-30-2006, 7:35 AM
I never said you were doing anything illegal. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. I simply asked how the San Jose Gun Exchange can do this, when the MCI DROS ENTRY SYSTEM has no provision for it?

What you have been saying is contradictory to what the DOJ says for us dealers to do. According to DOJ counsel "DEALER HANDGUN SALES have to go on their own DROS ENTRY, individually, and separate from any long guns."

tenpercentfirearms
03-30-2006, 9:59 AM
I called this morning and Kathy Quinn stated that this was not allowed by law. I asked, "Which section or code is that?" She didn't know off hand, so I sent her an e-mail for a written response, in which we will hopefully get a reply. We knew we were going to get that answer, so now we just wait and see if she can back it up with documentation or not. I probably just got placed on their black list because of you guys! :D

xenophobe
03-30-2006, 11:26 AM
I called this morning and Kathy Quinn stated that this was not allowed by law. I asked, "Which section or code is that?" She didn't know off hand, so I sent her an e-mail for a written response, in which we will hopefully get a reply. We knew we were going to get that answer, so now we just wait and see if she can back it up with documentation or not. I probably just got placed on their black list because of you guys! :D

Of course, you won't get a reply. In State CCR, PC, on DOJ's web site, or any DOJ communications, publications or regulations to FFL holders is this stated anywhere as a requirement... they'll just sit there and look at your email and scratch their heads trying to justify a way to tell you no...

And I thought you were already on the DOJ's hit list? lol

socalguns
03-30-2006, 2:56 PM
I called this morning and Kathy Quinn stated that this was not allowed by law. I asked, "Which section or code is that?" She didn't know off hand, so I sent her an e-mail for a written response, in which we will hopefully get a reply. We knew we were going to get that answer, so now we just wait and see if she can back it up with documentation or not. I probably just got placed on their black list because of you guys! :D

Because just like kantstudien she's assuming a whole lot.
The only thing the law provides discrection to the DOJ is HOW
the DROS is conducted (phone, software, whatever), not when its requird.
When you're supposed to complete a DROS is covered by the law.

What's next, they're goin to argue that you can't register as a group/corporation because the form they've provided doesn't allow for it?
Yeah right

Drifter721
03-30-2006, 5:13 PM
Well, this is going nowhere fast. The MCI DROS ENTRY, online DEALER HANDGUN SALE template form has NO PROVISION for a long gun entry. So, these bravado dealers must not be transmitting the long gun purchase information electronically to the DOJ. How would it be possible if the handgun form doesn't accept a long gun entry? I mean, it cannot be logically accomplished even if one wanted to do so.

This is not rocket science, but some of you geniuses must have figured you can circumvent the regulations and will get by with it. You may for awhile, but those attorney fees are really going to climb fast when it's time for reckoning with the piper. Good luck!

xenophobe
03-30-2006, 5:21 PM
What regulations? Where?

Drifter721
03-30-2006, 7:06 PM
What regulations? Where?

Obviously you are not the Licensee or you would not be making these statements or asking the what's or where's of the regulations. If you don't know, I'm not going to teach you. You shouldn't be spouting this off on a public forum, making dealers look like idiots, malcontents, and outlaws. What you are doing, and promoting, is not regulation. That makes us all look bad which cannot be good for our collective businesses. I wonder if the owners/licensees of San Jose Gun Exchange know, or even care what you are posting here for the world to see? God help you if the DOJ agents are reading this, which I am sure they do.

tenpercentfirearms
03-30-2006, 9:53 PM
Sorry Drifter, I am going to have to side with Xenophobe on this, for now. Unless you can show us a regulation that states you must submit a separate DROS for both a handgun and a long gun and that it is not permissible to place a long gun on the 4473 for a handgun DROS, the burden of proof is on you. You say there is a regulation, but when asked to provide this regulation, your response is merely "if you were a dealer you would know". Sorry, that is a 5th grade answer and we are all grown ups. Either it is legal or it is not. Logically speaking, the law requires you to perform a back ground check and make the customer wait ten days. Where does it specifically say that a handgun DROS will not be allowed to meet this requirement for long guns included on the same 4473 as long as all guns are delivered at the same time? I am a dealer and I know of no such regulation, so why not help a fellow dealer out and link a reference.

Now interestingly, she did say you can cross out the number on a long gun DROS and subtract long guns, but you cannot cross out a number and add long guns. The only reason that makes sense is because they want their money. I would be interested in the law that specifies you cannot add firearms. I am thinking techically you can as long as you claim the customer bought them at the same time and you just made an error in the DROS submission.

socalguns
03-30-2006, 11:01 PM
Well, this is going nowhere fast. The MCI DROS ENTRY, online DEALER HANDGUN SALE template form has NO PROVISION for a long gun entry. So, these bravado dealers must not be transmitting the long gun purchase information electronically to the DOJ. How would it be possible if the handgun form doesn't accept a long gun entry? I mean, it cannot be logically accomplished even if one wanted to do so.

This is not rocket science, but some of you geniuses must have figured you can circumvent the regulations and will get by with it. You may for awhile, but those attorney fees are really going to climb fast when it's time for reckoning with the piper. Good luck
The software is not the law.
Look at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf
All the software does is implement that form,
in a goofy way.
The software is not the law.
Quote some law.

xenophobe
03-31-2006, 12:02 AM
Where does it specifically say that a handgun DROS will not be allowed to meet this requirement for long guns included on the same 4473 as long as all guns are delivered at the same time? I am a dealer and I know of no such regulation, so why not help a fellow dealer out and link a reference.

He is not here to help people out, he is here to personally attack/troll. I was going to respond to him, but it wouldn't have been pretty and I didn't feel like stooping to his level.

There is no State requirement, published or public record that states that a DROS must include how many long guns (unlike Federal law, where you MUST report Multiple Sale of Handguns), nor is there any statement where there must be more than one DROS for any amount of firearms, with the exception of handguns. So far there has been a lot of opinion thrown around, even by the DOJ when you contacted them, but there is no published law, FAQ, dealer notice/bulletins, or regulatory statute that says this is mandatory. If there is, I will stop doing this immediately and advise the owner to do the same.

And unlike Drifter who obviously has some personal issues, I don't begrudge any dealer who would require you to dros both, or handguns, shotguns and rifles seperately, and there are some who do require 1 dros per firearm.

accordingtoome
03-31-2006, 3:08 AM
i bought a pistol and a shotty at the same time. i had to pay two

Drifter721
03-31-2006, 3:39 AM
Here are the DOJ/MCI Dealer instructions (see link below) for entering the electronic DROS ENTRY form via the Internet. This is a REQUIRED process for California dealer firearm sale and the background check. Please see pages 42-56 specifically, about the DEALER HANDGUN SALE, and DEALER LONG GUN SALE.

Once again, there is NO PROVISION for entering a long gun(s) on the DEALER HANDGUN SALE form. Please note, the DEALER LONG GUN SALE form DOES indeed require the number of long guns purchased to be entered by the dealer (see page 55, Figure 39). The form will not transmit to the DOJ wihout this field being completed by the dealer.

Following these DEALER MANDATED rules, how are you (xenophobe AKA San Jose Gun Exchange) documenting the long gun purchase(s) without going through both a hand gun and a long gun DROS, separately, for that type of multi-weapon transaction?


These are the rules set forth to us to use in a legal firearm transaction in our state. I expect the DOJ takes this very seriously, as should we all if we value our all too diminishing freedom.

I made a call to the DOJ, just to make sure the guidelines hadn't changed while I wasn't looking, and was assured by field agent Renee that "long guns are not submitted on a DEALER HANDGUN SALE entry, that they must be submitted as a separate DEALER LONG GUN(s) DROS."

What the Federal BATFE form 4473 allows, is not recognized by the state of California as a completed and lawful firearms transaction. The state has it's own set of rules, and these coincide and supersede with Federal laws.

It surprises me that you dealers are not in knowledge or compliance. Pretty brazen, and/or naiveté! I hope this is quickly corrected for all our benefit. I also hope your actions, or lack thereof, are not viewed by the observing public as common practice by California dealers, because they certainly are not.

NOTE: Link takes a while to fully load.....https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf






.

tenpercentfirearms
03-31-2006, 5:46 AM
Once again, there is NO PROVISION for entering a long gun(s) on the DEALER HANDGUN SALE form. Please note, the DEALER LONG GUN SALE form DOES indeed require the number of long guns purchased to be entered by the dealer (see page 55, Figure 39). The form will not transmit to the DOJ without this field being completed by the dealer.This is common knowledge. We are not arguing that you can submit long gun DROS transmissions on a handgun DROS. Xenophobe is saying that a handgun DROS will suffice for a back ground check and 10 day wait for both a handgun and long guns as long as they are properly recorded on the 4473 and in your acquisitions book. No one has yet to show where this is prohibited by law.

Following these DEALER MANDATED rules, how are you (xenophobe AKA San Jose Gun Exchange) documenting the long gun purchase(s) without going through both a hand gun and a long gun DROS, separately, for that type of multi-weapon transaction?They are documenting it on a 4473 and in their bound books. Think about it, if I can cross long guns off of my DROS and Ms. Quinn's response was "that is only a statistical thing so it is no big deal", they are not accurately tracking how many guns you are selling through DROS, nor are they supposed to be since that information is released in 15 days or whatever it is.

What the Federal BATFE form 4473 allows, is not recognized by the state of California as a completed and lawful firearms transaction. The state has it's own set of rules, and these coincide and supersede with Federal laws.Please, for the record, state to us the penal code or CCR section that prohibits using a handgun DROS on a lawful handgun purchase to also provide the 10 day wait and back ground check on additional long guns also purchased at that time and delivered at the same date and time? So far you have only said the the DOJ has said you can't do it and you provided us the MCI DROS manual which has absolutely no references to PC or CCR. I know what the MCI DROS allows and doesn't allow as the software is pretty fool proof. Again, you have still proved nothing new other than your own speculation, the speculation of the DOJ, and some instructions to complete a DROS form, which I am pretty sure all of us know how to do.

It surprises me that you dealers are not in knowledge or compliance. Pretty brazen, and/or naiveté! I hope this is quickly corrected for all our benefit. I also hope your actions, or lack thereof, are not viewed by the observing public as common practice by California dealers, because they certainly are not.That is right, when you can't back up your position with facts or logic, use personal attacks. Make it seem like the actions of one thinking FFL are so detrimental to society and gun owners in general that we are all losing because of these FFLs who do some research and follow the law. Whatever you do, do not state the relevant penal code sections that prohibit this act.

The problem Drifter is you are not thinking. This lack of thinking is why no one sold stripped off-list lowers for 4 years in this state. The DOJ took years to finally admit that there was nothing they could do about off-list lowers and how many times do you think those field agents told people that was not legal and that it was not possible? It is either in the law or it is not. So far on many of these issues the DOJ seems to have a lack of credibility and it has been alleged that they outright lie and spread false assumptions. Anything and everything you do with the DOJ needs to come in writing and be based on the law. If you fail to do that, I would contend that you might have the problem with naiveté.

We are still waiting for proof. The MCI DROS manual doesn't seem to cover the issue. Despite your fears of instant unrest and peril, I will not be changing my perceptions until I get back a written response from the DOJ. So don't worry, Xenophobe is not starting a mass exhodus of FFL dealers who are willing to start implementing new policies, not yet anyway.

rips31
03-31-2006, 1:05 PM
here's something from the atf website. go down and click on 'theatre 3.' this details a transaction involving 2 handguns and 1 long gun. here in kali, the 2 handgun thing wouldn't apply, but the rest of it would.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/index.htm

EOD Guy
03-31-2006, 1:48 PM
DOJ has stated that a separate DROS is required for each handgun and that any number of long guns can be transferred on a single DROS. They have also said that in a transaction involving a combination of handguns and long guns, a DROS will be required for each handgun and a single DROS will be required for any number of long guns. So the answer is that a handgun and a long gun cannot be transferred on a single DROS.

See the link for a DOJ Bulletin on the subject. The bulletin concerns private party sales through dealers but the DROS process is still the same. I don't think anything has changed except that the DROS fee has been increased.

DOJ Information Bulletin (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf)

tenpercentfirearms
04-19-2006, 4:37 PM
I finally received a response from the DOJ. I honestly don't have time to look at it right now. You guys have a look and make comments and I will catch up to you all later.

12076...(i)(1) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for a single transaction on the same date for the sale of any number of firearms that are not pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person or for the taking of possession of those firearms.

(2) In a single transaction on the same date for the delivery of any number of firearms that are pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, the department shall charge a reduced fee pursuant to this section for the second and subsequent firearms that are part of that transaction.

Sally Carney, Field Representative
Firearms Division
(916) 263-4887

BigMac
04-19-2006, 5:46 PM
A Pistol DROS is actually TWO things:

1)Registration of a particular Handgun
2)Eligibility/Background check to purchase a Firearm

The 2nd part of a Pistol DROS is sufficient for aquiring ONE handgun and as many long guns as one wishes to pick up on the delivery date after the 10 day waiting period. A rifle DROS is not necessary if a DROS on a pistol has been performed, if they are going to be delivered on the same date. That is how we do it, how we have done it in the past, and how we will continue to do it. Past and future ATF and DOJ audits notwithstanding. We have never been told otherwise.

this isn't my understanding at all. I cannot add a long gun in on the quantity being DROSed. The DOJ auditer I had last made it very clear you MAY NOT add firearms to a DROS after the fact.


Also, if you notice when you do a Multiple Handgun Private Party Transfer, additional handguns after the first are charged at a lower rate. Why? Because the Eligibility/Background Check to purchase a firearm has already been paid for.

NO beacause the safety fee and whatever the other on is has been paid.

EDIT: A dealer CAN make you pay for additional DROSes, and if he does, ask for a copy of each. If he can't provide them, he's only adding the extra DROS fees to his profit margin. And, some dealers will charge you a DROS fee for each long gun. That is certainly a move for profit, and nothing else.

I have never made any money on DROS outside of 10 bucks on PPT. SO hows that work? Don't all dealer supply the DROS number for the firearms? I put the right on the invoice so I can use it as a traking #

Not trying to slam you here but thats just not the way I understand it.

PIRATE14
04-19-2006, 6:05 PM
I finally received a response from the DOJ. I honestly don't have time to look at it right now. You guys have a look and make comments and I will catch up to you all later.

12076...(i)(1) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for a single transaction on the same date for the sale of any number of firearms that are not pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person or for the taking of possession of those firearms.

Doesn't matter how many u buy 1 or a 100........

Pistol Background would be good enough for me 1 pistol and 5 lowers....please.

4 Audits....THX

Geez....I missed that part where I couldn't sell pistols!!!!!!!!!!

BigMac
04-19-2006, 6:06 PM
Now that I've read all of this thread...

I'm waiting patiently for the written response.. If I don't have to charge a customer for something.. I wont.. it frees up money they can spend on other stuff I actually get paid for.


Is it just me or didn't this used to be a "friendly" board.

kenc9
04-19-2006, 6:51 PM
I just DROS'd 4 receivers and my FFL says $35.00!!!
I said am I doing all 4???
He said 35.00 total...I give him 40.00 more for his good work.

He is a great guy and he will get any business I can give him.

-ken

capitol
04-19-2006, 7:11 PM
Is it just me or didn't this used to be a "friendly" board.

Yea, you can thank lower mania for the unwanted incoming ...

tenpercentfirearms
04-20-2006, 5:26 AM
I think they are grasping at straws hoping to God we don't get the balls to just start doing this. Really the code she sent me really doesn't address the issue. In fact, lets look at this.(2) In a single transaction on the same date for the delivery of any number of firearms that are pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, the department shall charge a reduced fee pursuant to this section for the second and subsequent firearms that are part of that transaction.There are so many ways to look at this. It really just sort of says that they will charge a reduced fee for additional handguns and makes no mention of long guns. However, since they don't stipulate how much the extra fee is for long guns, but merely that it is reduced, maybe they mean the reduced fee is zero US dollars!

I think they are giving me the shuffle knowing full well this is legal. Problem is, I am probably too scared to mess with it. Damn state and their damn confusing rules.

Drifter721
04-20-2006, 11:38 AM
I don't read anything in that that addresses the issue of DROS'ing a handgun and a rifle, or rifles, on the came DROS. The verbal I got from the DOJ is that handguns are DROS'd individually and separate from long guns. One handgun per DROS, but that long guns can have multiples on the same DROS, but must be separated from the handguns DROS.


Federal rules are different, and would allow handguns and long guns on the same DROS, but California DOJ rules supercede.

If you are a dealer, it would be best to err to the cautious side on this one. Compliance inspections and citations are not a fun thing, not to mention license revocation.

socalguns
04-20-2006, 6:48 PM
And we all know how much verbal anything from the DOJ is worth.
DOJ rules don't supercede law.

blacklisted
04-27-2006, 9:44 PM
btt, has this been resolved?

xenophobe
04-27-2006, 10:01 PM
I don't read anything in that that addresses the issue of DROS'ing a handgun and a rifle, or rifles, on the came DROS. The verbal I got from the DOJ is that handguns are DROS'd individually and separate from long guns. One handgun per DROS, but that long guns can have multiples on the same DROS, but must be separated from the handguns DROS.

That's a ripoff. If you're registering a handgun, you are also performing a background check. A long gun does not need to be registered, so the background check of the handgun is sufficient to release long guns on.

That is what my boss said, in not so many words...

The code that DOJ provided would lead me to this conclusion as well. Multiple pistols do indeed need additional DROS per concealable firearm. Long guns are not subject to additional DROSes and if you are purchasing a pistol, additional long guns being delivered on the same date of pickup do not need to be DROSed.

tenpercentfirearms
04-28-2006, 5:29 AM
Yeah that response she gave me pretty much tells me she knows it is ok and she doesn't want to admit it. You have to love the good old DOJ. Now will I get the balls to do it???

Drifter721
04-28-2006, 8:54 AM
That's a ripoff. If you're registering a handgun, you are also performing a background check. A long gun does not need to be registered, so the background check of the handgun is sufficient to release long guns on.

That is what my boss said, in not so many words...

The code that DOJ provided would lead me to this conclusion as well. Multiple pistols do indeed need additional DROS per concealable firearm. Long guns are not subject to additional DROSes and if you are purchasing a pistol, additional long guns being delivered on the same date of pickup do not need to be DROSed.

Well, maybe your boss has a get out of jail free card, hasn't been inspected recently, or just doesn't care one way or another about keeping his business records in compliance, but both the ATF and the DOJ field agents agree on this "Though the Federal form 4473 allows for multiple firearms to be listed on the same form - In California, which has it's on set of laws, long guns are DROS'd independently and separate from handguns." "One handgun per DROS. A long gun or multiple long guns go on a separate DROS." See Dealer Handgun Sale vs Dealer Long Gun Sale.

tenpercentfirearms
04-28-2006, 10:23 AM
Drifter, the CA DOJ also claims it has the authority to create a catagory 4 assault weapon. The CA DOJ also claims it has the authority to invalidate assault weapon registration. The CA DOJ and the BATFE claim a lot of things and when taken to court they are wrong. They don't just get to make up rules outside of judicial oversight. So, where in public law, clearly written for everyone to see, does it prohibit using the back ground check of a handgun from being used at the same time for a long gun or long guns? We have asked you that repeatidly to show us and you have repeatidly failed to produce the peneal code reference to back it up. We know what internal DOJ documents say, but is that law? No, it is not.

I asked the DOJ to provide the references that clearly prohibit this from happening. They have not. San Jose Gun Exchange has been audited and they continue to do this and they are still in business.

The DOJ does not want this to go public. Just like they didn't want legal lowers to go public. When asked to back themselves up with the law, they have failed to do so.

What they want to do is to intimidate and coerce you into paying more money to fund their operations than you have to. In general it works. Some guys call their bluff and it appears they have not been defeated for it.

Drifter721
04-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Drifter, the CA DOJ also claims it has the authority to create a catagory 4 assault weapon. The CA DOJ also claims it has the authority to invalidate assault weapon registration. The CA DOJ and the BATFE claim a lot of things and when taken to court they are wrong. They don't just get to make up rules outside of judicial oversight. So, where in public law, clearly written for everyone to see, does it prohibit using the back ground check of a handgun from being used at the same time for a long gun or long guns? We have asked you that repeatidly to show us and you have repeatidly failed to produce the peneal code reference to back it up. We know what internal DOJ documents say, but is that law? No, it is not.

I asked the DOJ to provide the references that clearly prohibit this from happening. They have not. San Jose Gun Exchange has been audited and they continue to do this and they are still in business.

The DOJ does not want this to go public. Just like they didn't want legal lowers to go public. When asked to back themselves up with the law, they have failed to do so.

What they want to do is to intimidate and coerce you into paying more money to fund their operations than you have to. In general it works. Some guys call their bluff and it appears they have not been defeated for it.


TPF,

On the MCI online DROS template, there is no entry option for a long gun on a Dealer Handgun Sale. This means that if you are not DROS'ing the long gun on a separate and independent Dealer Long Gun Sale, the DOJ would have no idea that a long gun has been transferred to that person on that same day as the handgun transfer. Remember, these are legal documents that must stand up under court case scrutiny, both on a Federal, State, and local level. Also note, the Federal from 4473 and the DOJ's DROS form are two different and separate legal documents for two entirely separate government agencies, and that they don't ever cross reference with each other.

If you don't do it the way the DOJ tells us we are supposed to do it, then you are not properly and legally reporting the disposition of firearms (long guns in this case). I think it goes without mention that anyone not legally reporting to the state the dispostion of any firearm is in for a big surprise at some point down the road.

socalsteve
04-28-2006, 11:07 AM
I looked at the DROS instruction info. on the link provided and I could not see how when I purchase a handgun an FFL would be able to also list that I purchased a longgun.

My question is. How do you do this?
Or, Is it not required to list that I also bought a longgun on the State Internet DROS form - so you do not do it?

I read that one part is registration and one part is the background check. I can understand that only one background check should be required but where does it list that I also bought a longgun?

I am not an FFL, I do not work for an FFL. I have bought firearms years ago and one form was enough. IN 2005, I was required to complete two forms and pay two fees in order to buy a handgun and a longgun at the same time.

I would rather not fund the Cal. DOJ if I do not have to. And, I would like to let the FFL I used know they do not have to either. I do not mind the FFL charging me (well maybe a little) but I really would like to be able to convince him he does not need to give extra funds to the State.

SO Do you list that I purchased a longgun on the internet DROS form when I purchase my handgun at the same time or not?

By the way the FFL I am referring to is Little John's Auction Service out of Orange, CA. They do a lot of multiple sales since they hold auctions and I think this would be a great benefit to them.

Please don't flame me. I read all 7 pages and I don't think this has been answerred. NO OFFENSE INTENDED.

caliar15
04-28-2006, 11:15 AM
Wow, I am not an ffl and even I understand what xeno and ten are saying:rolleyes:

xenophobe
04-28-2006, 12:08 PM
Remember, these are legal documents that must stand up under court case scrutiny, both on a Federal, State, and local level.

Please show me the code where it says a long gun must be done seperately from a handgun. Even the DOJ could not provide this.


Also note, the Federal from 4473 and the DOJ's DROS form are two different and separate legal documents for two entirely separate government agencies, and that they don't ever cross reference with each other.

A single NICS check is good enough for the federal government. You only need to provide one for long guns and handguns. Multiple handgun purchasers need to be identified to the ATF directly. Multiple long guns do not.

Until you can show me the section of the law that states a handgun and long gun may not be drosed together, there is no California requirement. There may be DOJ policy, or DOJ wet dreams, but no matter how much you want to pretend, does not make it reality.


If you don't do it the way the DOJ tells us we are supposed to do it, then you are not properly and legally reporting the disposition of firearms (long guns in this case). I think it goes without mention that anyone not legally reporting to the state the dispostion of any firearm is in for a big surprise at some point down the road.

Long gun dispostions are not recorded by the state, nor are they allowed to keep information on long gun purchasers. If they retain this information for longer than a certain timeframe, they are breaking the law.

Are you some DOJ mole who is not happy what you're reading here? *shrug*

Like it would matter, because what you're claiming does not exist on paper. You probably believe the Feb 1 memo to be law as well. Sad...


1) A handgun needs to be registered
2) A long gun does not
3) Both require a background check
4) A DROS is only good for the delivery date
5) 1 background check is necessary per delivery date
6) A handgun background check is sufficient to release a long gun

If you can't understand that, or even agree with it, Arnie needs the extra money for his gas guzzling hummers and cigars. Feel free to pay it.

If a dealer is NOT comfortable with doing this, they don't have to.


I am not an FFL, I do not work for an FFL.

Thanks for your opinion.

Drifter721
04-28-2006, 1:41 PM
xenophobe,

Obviously you have never done a mixed multiple firearms DROS or you would know it is impossible to list or transfer a long gun on a State Dealer Handgun Sale DROS submission through MCI. If you think the listing on the Federal 4473 suffices, you are not in compliance with state laws and are probably in for a rude awakening at some point in time. Does Mike Fournier (owner of the San Jose Gun Exchange) know you are posting this on the Internet? I bet if he read some of your postings here, you might find yourself in some serious discussions with him.

xenophobe
04-28-2006, 5:28 PM
Obviously you're making quite a few assumptions. Thank you Mr unnamed DOJ agent that we're not in compliance with statutory code that does not exist.

And what is the point of arguing in circles. I'll stop and let you spin yourself dizzy.

No, you cannot come to my house to see if my mattresses and pillows still have their tags either. :rolleyes:

tenpercentfirearms
04-29-2006, 10:20 AM
Drifter, you are really not making much sense and I am starting to wonder if you even know how any of this works as your statements are not well thought out.

This means that if you are not DROS'ing the long gun on a separate and independent Dealer Long Gun Sale, the DOJ would have no idea that a long gun has been transferred to that person on that same day as the handgun transfer.The DOJ already doesn't know what long guns are being transfered. That data is deleted after about 15 days as is evident by going into DROS and reviewing past transaction. All long gun transactions go blank after about 15 days.

Second, the DOJ has told me specifically over the phone if a customer wants to buy 3 long guns and if that is what you put into MCI DROS, they can opt to only buy 2 or 1. You do not have to sell them the numer of guns that you submit to MCI DROS. The DOJ Field Agent stated the number of long guns was for statistical purposes only. When I flipped it around and said, "What if they wanted more?" then they changed their mind and said you have to start a new DROS. Part of that was probably to make sure they get their money and part of it was probably so you wouldn't have guys deciding on day 9 to take 10 more guns.

However, all of this is a mute point and you erroneously make the claim that the DOJ would have no idea of a long gun transfer on that date. Are you not keeping an aquisitions record book (bound book)? Are you not keeping 4473s? The DOJ already doesn't know what long guns are being transfered as the MCI DROS does not accurately track that data. If the DOJ wants to know what long guns I released, they would have to come to my shop and inspect irregardless if I piggybacked it onto a handgun DROS or not. THE MCI DROS SYSTEM DOES NOT TRANSMIT LONG GUN DATA!!! What if the guy decides not to get it and lets his 30 days expire? Do you call the DOJ and inform them that you did not follow through on the transaction? Otherwise using your logic the DOJ would think you made a long gun transaction and they might be uspet to still find that long gun in your inventory. Of course this is absurd as they DO NOT TRACK LONG GUN SALES LIKE HANDGUN SALES!

If you don't do it the way the DOJ tells us we are supposed to do it, then you are not properly and legally reporting the disposition of firearms (long guns in this case). I think it goes without mention that anyone not legally reporting to the state the dispostion of any firearm is in for a big surprise at some point down the road.Again, how is logging out the transaction in my bound book and on a 4473 not properly reporting the disposition of a firearm? If the DOJ came in and said, "Where is this gun?" I would know exactly where it is as I do properly track these items in a legal fashion. For some reason you seem to think the DOJ has an all knowing super database that they must keep accurate with the exact number of firearms everyone owns. Sorry, it doesn't exist. If they want to know specifics, they have to call the FFL or come by his shop. It really is that simple. Long gun DROS numbers are merely statistical as told to me by a DOJ field agent.

If you think the listing on the Federal 4473 suffices, you are not in compliance with state laws and are probably in for a rude awakening at some point in time.You have been asked repeatidly to cite the law that anyone would be breaking here. You have repeatidly failed to do so and continue to simply state YOUR OPINION that is against the law. You try and use the rationale that if a state agency is of the opinion it is illegal and says you can't do it in their operating manual, that makes it law. Are you a fool or is your argument just foolish? I can no longer tell the difference. Especially with comments like this,Obviously you have never done a mixed multiple firearms DROS or you would know it is impossible to list or transfer a long gun on a State Dealer Handgun Sale DROS submission through MCI.The whole basis of Xenophobe's arguement is that even though the DOJ has set up a system to make it look like this is the case, the law simply does not require it. Obviously he knows this is the case as he is telling us how to get around it.

The more and more I think about it, the more and more it makes sense that Drifter is obviously sticking to a sinking ship for some irrational reason. I am by no means into this DOJ plant paranoia around here, but in this particular case, it makes no sense why Drifter would blatantly disregard clear evidence and stick to a defense of a set of procedures that has no basis of legal support.Does Mike Fournier (owner of the San Jose Gun Exchange) know you are posting this on the Internet? I bet if he read some of your postings here, you might find yourself in some serious discussions with him.Call him and ask him yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if he told you where to go. I have chatted with the man ever so briefly and it wasn't a pleasant experience. So call him up and ask him if his employee knows he is following the policy that Mike Fournier set up and is obviously following himself?

hoffmang
04-29-2006, 11:01 AM
As a customer who has purchased hand guns from a variety of Bay Area retail gun dealers including Imbert and Smithers and Krausewerk I can tell you that they will offer to sell you any rilfe you'd like when you come in to pick up your handgun.

The Handgun DROS does three things.
1. Register your handgun with DOJ.
2. Perform a background check.
3. Require 10 days to elapse from the start of your background check to your purchase.

The law to purchase a long gun is only that:
1. You pass a background check.
2. 10 days pass from the start of that check.

There is no requirement to register a rifle with either the State or the Fed. The dealer does need to keep accurate records of where each gun he transferred went, but that's only in his log book.

I'm not an FFL, just a well read and experienced customer and citizen.

Remember the policy issues here. For better or worse at least the NRA and the Fed have been relatively successful at keeping the NICS system from creating records of non handgun purchases - even at the state level.

[Edited where I stupidly put handgun and meant long gun above]

kantstudien
04-29-2006, 4:03 PM
Again, just because you have been audited does not mean this is an approved method of doing things, it simply means they did not look at an example of this during the audit.

I personally don't give a crap what a particular FFL wants to do, but SJGE is the only one I have ever heard of doing this. This leads me to believe this is not normative practice, and even TPF's phone call demonstrates this.

DOJ is not concerned with your background as much as they are concerned with getting paid their DROS money. If they only cared about a background check, then why not make everyone get COEs and then have no DROS process at all?

In the end, the DOJ could simply remove you from the list of centralized dealers so that while you might still have your FFL, you would be unable to run DROSes, effectively putting you out of business. Is it worth the extra $25?

Drifter721
04-29-2006, 7:07 PM
TPF and SJGE,

I should thank you both.

Anyone that confuses the A&D book, and the Federal form 4473 (both of which the DOJ cares nothing about, or even reviews in an audit) as sufficient documentation to the DOJ that a long gun has been transfered within the state of California, completely ignoring the Dealer Long Gun Sale DROS, is waiting to lose their CFD license.

Just keep doing things the way you think you can get away with. Me, I'm going to keep my license and be waiting for your customers when the DOJ comes to close your doors.

tenpercentfirearms
04-30-2006, 12:50 AM
Anyone that confuses the A&D book, and the Federal form 4473 (both of which the DOJ cares nothing about, or even reviews in an audit) as sufficient documentation to the DOJ that a long gun has been transfered within the state of California, completely ignoring the Dealer Long Gun Sale DROS, is waiting to lose their CFD license.Is that all you have? That is your response? Oh wait, I missed the best part.Me, I'm going to keep my license and be waiting for your customers when the DOJ comes to close your doors.Do you honestly think SJGE's customers are going to take their business to a gun dealer who is so blatantly at the beck and call of the CA DOJ that they are more than willing to keep giving away the customer's hard earned money into fees that the customer has no proven legal obligation to pay? I am sure your mastery of the law and willingness to go that extra mile for your customers by charging them an extra $25 will steal those customers right from SJGE. Well done.

Now I say SJGE only because I am not doing anything differently. I still waste away my client's money too on two separate DROS forms. I don't have the testicles to do it yet and the customer's $25 isn't worth me losing my license over. This is all an academic discussion for me. I think the academic side is conclusively in favor of SJGE and you have simply beat around the bush and added nothing to the discussion other than weak reasoning and a severe lack of evidence. Really, my hats off to SJGE for going out and taking action. They aren't having an academic discussion, they are doing it. We all know you are convinced the auditors would never miss such a blatant violation, yet they still remain in business. I wonder why that is? Is it the same reason the DOJ told me I shouldn't start long gun DROS before the firearm is in, but they didn't do anything about it? It might be they can't. Nah, they are all knowing, all seeing, and all powerful. :rolleyes:

I think we are spent on this one. I am out. The horse is dead.

xenophobe
04-30-2006, 1:19 AM
As a customer who has purchased hand guns from a variety of Bay Area retail gun dealers including Imbert and Smithers and Krausewerk I can tell you that they will offer to sell you any rilfe you'd like when you come in to pick up your handgun.

Thank you for more examples. Dealers have been doing this long before MCI created the DROS entry application (when we actually had to call in and give this information verbally -e.g. "long gun and handgun" one fee) and regardless of how it prompts you.

Drifter, show me the code. Show me some law. Show me a memo. Show me a handwritten note.... Even the DOJ couldn't provide it to Wes. Go figure.

I'm done with this thread as well. Think what you want.

AJAX22
02-06-2009, 7:35 PM
Did we ever come to a consensus on this?

I've been arguing with a buddy about this stuff and He challanged me to find the penal code which allows for it....

I in turn have been trying to find penal code which prohibits it...

Neither one of us have been successfull..

Yet I've seen a dozen dealers add long guns to your dros when you come in to pick up....

I don't want to give the CA DOJ one flat dime more than they have coming to them.... and I like the idea of impulse buying guns when I go to pick up...

so?

scotthmt
02-06-2009, 8:45 PM
DROS is such BS, feels like another scam to steal money from us.

Codelphious
02-06-2009, 10:33 PM
Did we ever come to a consensus on this?

I've been arguing with a buddy about this stuff and He challanged me to find the penal code which allows for it....

I in turn have been trying to find penal code which prohibits it...

Neither one of us have been successfull..

Yet I've seen a dozen dealers add long guns to your dros when you come in to pick up....

I don't want to give the CA DOJ one flat dime more than they have coming to them.... and I like the idea of impulse buying guns when I go to pick up...

so?

That's laughable! A law which "allows" for things? Damn... I'd hate to live in such a world where everything was illegal unless strictly made legal.

DDT
02-07-2009, 1:16 AM
I picked up a PPT'ed handgun in January and impulse bought a stripped lower, I guess he put it on the handgun DROS since I didn't pay another fee and didn't wait an additional 10 days.

halifax
02-07-2009, 7:14 AM
Did we ever come to a consensus on this?

I've been arguing with a buddy about this stuff and He challanged me to find the penal code which allows for it....

I in turn have been trying to find penal code which prohibits it...

Neither one of us have been successfull..

Yet I've seen a dozen dealers add long guns to your dros when you come in to pick up....

I don't want to give the CA DOJ one flat dime more than they have coming to them.... and I like the idea of impulse buying guns when I go to pick up...

so?

That's laughable! A law which "allows" for things? Damn... I'd hate to live in such a world where everything was illegal unless strictly made legal.

My take on this for what it's worth.

There are no statutes that expressly prohibit this. The fault lies in the MCI software. Before internet-only DROS submittal, it was common practice for the dealer to sell any number of long guns after a buyer had passed a background check for a handgun purchase. Stores that have been around awhile (e.g., SJGE) and have been doing this longgun-with-a-handgun thing for years simply saw the MCI flaw for what it is...a flaw. They have no problem with doing it because it is not prohibited by law.

Not all dealers or the DOJ see it the same way. That does not make it illegal.

If dealers had to do only what the MCI software allowed, no Beretta USA handguns could be done as a PPT because only Beretta Italy and Beretta Brazil are on the drop-down list of selections. Obviously a flaw, but dealers still do PPTs on Beretta USA handguns.

Fix the software and this issue would die a quick death.

Just my opinion.

thedrickel
02-07-2009, 10:19 AM
My take is that "DROS" is "Dealers Record of Sale" . . . if there's no long gun DROS submitted, where is the "Dealers Record of Sale" for that transaction? Does the PC require a DROS for any long gun transaction?

Serpentine
02-07-2009, 6:30 PM
My take is that "DROS" is "Dealers Record of Sale" . . . if there's no long gun DROS submitted, where is the "Dealers Record of Sale" for that transaction? Does the PC require a DROS for any long gun transaction?

Correct, DROS = Dealer Record Of Sale.

The way I undsertand it, the PC requires a DROS for a long gun(s), which is completely a different and separate transaction (at the state level anyhow) from a handgun DROS. A handgun DROS, (once again -at the state level), is different and separate from a long gun DROS transaction. The handgun DROS allows for one, and only one handgun - no long guns.