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Mud
03-25-2006, 11:26 AM
I'm not trying to compete with the SRB, but what does everyone think of this idea. It puts the web above the top of trigger and doesn't allow a grasp with the rest of the hand. Just trying to get some feedback from the forum.
Thanks.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0612.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0610.jpg

Mud
03-25-2006, 11:27 AM
A couple more Pics for ya.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0609.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0611.jpg

Kevlarman
03-25-2006, 11:32 AM
Looks nice!

Mud
03-25-2006, 11:52 AM
I was hoping someone would post that magic line pic, thanks Ted. This plastic proto-type is not a cut down grip as you can see in the pics, and it also puts the web of the hand (Thumb/forefinger) above the line. Little Iffy?

EBWhite
03-25-2006, 12:13 PM
I think It puts the web of you hand below the line.....
But only slightly. Only way is to send this photo to DOJ and get a letter of approval.

Hopi
03-25-2006, 12:20 PM
What about shaping that lucite(?) into something like the tumor stock? If I remember correctly, that was california approved.

Mud
03-25-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm up for any ideas, give me some pictures or Photoshop the one I have to give me some ideas.
Thanks.

Hopi
03-25-2006, 12:56 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=331&d=1139209999

xrMike
03-25-2006, 1:23 PM
What about shaping that lucite(?) into something like the tumor stock? If I remember correctly, that was california approved.AFter looking at the pic, I can see why they call that thing a "tumor" grip, because it looks like a big hunk of cancer on that gun...

In Mud's pics it LOOKS like his web is above that imaginary line, since his forefinger angled downward, but I'm no expert that's for sure.

Hopi
03-25-2006, 1:49 PM
Have you ever handled a rifle with that thing on it?

Nope, I'm not sure if they ever sold them, I've only heard them spoken of and I've seen that picture.

1911_Mitch
03-25-2006, 2:06 PM
I used to have one.

Cost me $80 bucks at a gun show. I traded it away when I abandoned the AR platform when the ban took affect. :mad:

I got rid of most of my other AR goodies too; spring kits, pin kits, removable carry handle, removable front sight, and tumor grip.

Glad I hung on to my pre-ban mags though. I knew some other firearm would eventually be manufactured to accept them.

1911_Mitch
03-25-2006, 2:10 PM
Seems to me that the only way a 'SRB' gizmo like this to work is to make sure the top edge does not drop below the horizontal line of the top of the exposed trigger.

At that point, the web of your hand would have to be jammed in between the gizmo and the lower grip strap. It would be a tight fit (maybe not such a bad thing as it may help provide control of the weapon).

Another thought is to manufacture a new stock with a type of web-of-hand hook (but not qualify as a thumbhole stock). I will try to work up a sketch.

Hopi
03-25-2006, 2:30 PM
I agree that it is less than ideal. But If it is indeed CaDoj approved, then it is a good legal starting point from which to innovate a more sophisticated design.


They were manufactured in the late 90's while the Fed AWB was in effect and before SB23 passed. Checked them out at gun shows. Read many online discussions about their viability as a pistol grip alternative.

The primary line of thinking was that if--under the Fed AWB's 2 evil feature rule--you removed the pistol grip from an AR, then you could add a flash suppressor or a collapsible stock.

The other day I had a chance to handle one again. That particular unit looked like it had been sitting at the bottom of someone's parts box until recently.

I think the fact that they are no longer produced and no one has attempted to restart manufacturing speaks loads about the design's flaws and acceptance.

Mud
03-25-2006, 2:38 PM
Thought I'd make it look less like a grip. The other pick shows where the web ends up while handling the lower, it fills the radius of the lower.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0614.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0613.jpg

Just trying to think outside the box!:D

Surveyor
03-25-2006, 6:55 PM
Just trying to think outside the box!

You're doing a good job of it. I think you're getting closer to the final design.
BTW, thinking inside of the box is why it took 5 years for us to catch on to the whole off-list thing!

EBWhite
03-25-2006, 7:05 PM
Gotta remember, that design is still questionable (i think they would consider it a p-grip.
in the end, you need a letter from the DOJ, otherwise making it would be a waste of time.

1911_Mitch
03-25-2006, 8:58 PM
Remember the web of the hand must be above the exposed portion of the trigger.

See attached photo for my mock-up.

blacklisted
03-25-2006, 9:16 PM
I'm sure they would love that one, instead of a tumour grip, it's now a penis grip!

10TH AMENDMENT
03-25-2006, 10:13 PM
Gotta remember, that design is still questionable (i think they would consider it a p-grip.
in the end, you need a letter from the DOJ, otherwise making it would be a waste of time.

The DOJ has already issued a letter opinion, here it is.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c142/solascriptura1984/barrett-thumb-grip.jpg

Again, the only time the web of the hand comes into play in what constitutes a prohibited pistol grip is when the "conspicuously protruding grip" allows for a "pistol style grasp". If there is no "pistol style grasp", there is no pistol grip and absolutely no need to address the "web of the hand" issue, period.

The DOJ has clearly opined that a "pistol style grasp" requires that all of the fingers of the hand must be wrapped firmly around the grip.

The "imaginary line" illustration is only applicable if, and only if enough of the rest of the pistol grip below the "imaginary line" illustration is attached to the rifle so that all of the fingers below the finger on the trigger can be "wrapped firmly around the grip". Otherwise, there could be no possibility for a "pistol style grasp". The only part of the plastic below the "imaginary line" in the DOJ's illustration that constitutes a "conspicuously protruding grip" is that which is below the trigger guard. Once that is removed, there no longer remains any possibility for a "pistol style grasp". Therefore, it is no longer a "conspicuously protruding grip".

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c142/solascriptura1984/aw2.jpg

This is not that difficult to figure out. The DOJ even states in 978.20(e) that "The Department believes that the concept of a "pistol style grasp" is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations." I would venture to say that most all of us on this board who would be affected by this regulation generally understand the concept of a "pistol style grasp".

Mud's device clearly does not allow for a "pistol style grasp". Therefore, it is not a "conspicuously protruding pistol grip" as defined by the DOJ itself.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c142/solascriptura1984/Picture_0612.jpg

PonyFiveO
03-25-2006, 11:07 PM
10TH, hows this?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/LegalPistolGrip.jpg

blacklisted
03-25-2006, 11:20 PM
10TH, hows this?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/LegalPistolGrip.jpg

That one allows for a "pistol style grasp", but I don't know about where the web of the hand would be.

Mud
03-25-2006, 11:32 PM
Thanks 10TH AMENDMENT, That letter will be added to my collection. Hope others will contribute some designs they have made to take the place of a PG.

adamsreeftank
03-26-2006, 1:45 AM
Thought I'd make it look less like a grip. The other pick shows where the web ends up while handling the lower, it fills the radius of the lower.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0614.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0613.jpg

Just trying to think outside the box!:D

I would be concerned that you could hold this grip with your hand under the protruding lip, which would negate the high grip in the photos. Why not just make it round so you had to hold it on top.

Mud
03-26-2006, 5:37 AM
I would be concerned that you could hold this grip with your hand under the protruding lip, which would negate the high grip in the photos. Why not just make it round so you had to hold it on top.


You can't hold it under the lip, it is rounded so your hand can not grasp the lower. The first picture I had posted in this thread had me worried about that, so I cut and rounded the bottom so you can't grasp it.:)

gidddy169
03-26-2006, 7:44 AM
Does anyone have a picture of the barrett grip alternative?

TacFan
03-26-2006, 3:04 PM
reading these threads ... I kind of put myself in somebody else's shoes living outside this state and I would be laughing my arse off reading these posts. WHat californians would do just to keep pushing the law :p

grammaton76
03-26-2006, 3:16 PM
reading these threads ... I kind of put myself in somebody else's shoes living outside this state and I would be laughing my arse off reading these posts. WHat californians would do just to keep pushing the law :p

Heh, had a friend from Arizona visit this week. You should've seen his face when he realized that the "fancy shiny mag release" (sporting conversion kit) was ... erm, not a mag release. :)

PonyFiveO
03-26-2006, 3:24 PM
OKOKOK Next! This is my Thumb Hook Design...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ThumbHook.jpg

gidddy169
03-26-2006, 6:07 PM
PonyFiveO That is the exact grip I was thinking about a couple of weeks ago but I was to lazy to photoshop it. I can't see how that wouldn't be legal. I might have to do that after I get an upper without a FH.

CalExile
03-26-2006, 6:19 PM
reading these threads ... I kind of put myself in somebody else's shoes living outside this state and I would be laughing my arse off reading these posts. WHat californians would do just to keep pushing the law :p

I am in that position... Living in gun friendly VA but moving to CA in the fall. What a clown show. I am glad this site exists, you guys are at least forcing the issue with the state. They want sooooo bad to ban all guns, but have to come up with these incremental laws that make no sense.

SpeedTribe
03-26-2006, 9:54 PM
Hell, I may as well throw my hat into the ring...Everyone seems to be going to the rear with the grip. How about just adding a bit to the SRB and make it go off to the side?
Is it goofy? Yes, but the whole situation is goofy.
I don't have access to delrin or to a metal shop so I went with the old modeling clay. This grip would give you a little bit of a shelf to hold, your thumb gives it some stability, and you fingers curl underneath. It could also guarantee the "web of the hand is above the imaginary..."
Anyone care to make one from plastic? I get a freebie and 50% of the millions!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/SPEEDTRIBE/WingGrpHeld.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/SPEEDTRIBE/WingGrip2_edited-1.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/SPEEDTRIBE/WingGrip1_edited-1.jpg

HK_Fan
03-26-2006, 10:32 PM
The DOJ letter stated "all fingers". If the web of hand placement is not an issue, can we get away with a grip for just the middle finger to grasp? I dont think that it would pretrude conspicuously (sp) beneth the action....


Rob

1911_Mitch
03-26-2006, 10:39 PM
These are all great ideas. Lets keep them flowing, and I am sure we can come up with some "alternative" grip that still allows a measure of controlability to the platform.

blacklisted
03-26-2006, 11:12 PM
Later this week I might make a few non-pistol grips out of wood.

adamsreeftank
03-27-2006, 1:43 AM
OKOKOK Next! This is my Thumb Hook Design...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ThumbHook.jpg

Remember that to have a detachable magazine, you can't have a pistol grip, a flash hider, or an adjustable stock.

Mud
03-28-2006, 5:27 PM
Here is a Modified version of the "Detent Spring Retainer" (Just Kidding Bu-Bye):D
Whatcha think?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0622.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0620.jpg

Mud
03-28-2006, 5:38 PM
One More...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0621.jpg

DrMUR
03-28-2006, 5:42 PM
Careful with those "potential pistol grips".

Remember the FAB-1911?

http://members.cox.net/apako/FAB_1911.jpg

Smokeybehr
03-28-2006, 6:03 PM
Careful with those "potential pistol grips".

Remember the FAB-1911?

http://members.cox.net/apako/FAB_1911.jpg

Man, that's almost as cool as the HomeBoy Night Sights for the Glock! :p

NorCal MedTac
03-28-2006, 6:09 PM
I wanna see somebody's homeboy night sights for a glock picture

Mud
03-28-2006, 6:43 PM
Thanks Guys

adamsreeftank
03-28-2006, 9:16 PM
One More...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Picture_0621.jpg

I still think you could hold it with the "web" of your hand under the lip and negate what you are trying to do. Just because you don't plan on holding like that, doesn't mean it couldn't be done, so I think you would be at some risk.

Lambchop
03-28-2006, 10:11 PM
What would happen if the web of the hand didnt come into play? Could you then use the remaining 3 fingers to grasp a grip?

Gregas
03-29-2006, 9:01 AM
Personally, I don't know why everyone isn't building their rifles with sawed off grips, I know I am. The detachable magazine is what makes the AR platform such a fantastic weapon.

It just depends what you are planning to do with it. For a fighting gun, a detachable magzine is more important than a pistol grip. But for target shooting, I prefer having the pistol grip. Reloading is a minor inconvenience. I can still change the configuration if my needs change.

~DEVO~
03-29-2006, 10:25 AM
MUD,

I think you do need to add some type of thumb rest. I "think" after repetative recoil from a firearm being fired that your hand will become fatiqued or become black & blue at the web.

Maybe a side mount like stated earlier. I shoot my sks much better with my thumb on the side of the rifle instead of wrapped to the other side. I only had to shoot my sks like this because I was always hitting my nose with my hairy thumb.:o

SC_00_05
03-29-2006, 1:17 PM
I still think you could hold it with the "web" of your hand under the lip and negate what you are trying to do. Just because you don't plan on holding like that, doesn't mean it couldn't be done, so I think you would be at some risk.
Has everybody totally ignored what 10thAdmendment just posted? That is the first time I've seen that letter and it definitely puts a lot of my fears to rest. Time to cut up some old pistol grips that I have sitting around.

1911_Mitch
03-29-2006, 1:22 PM
The DOJ letter was only the first page. The first paragraph indicated that the DOJ has made the following observations, and then continues to spew definitions. There was no resolution to the characteristics of the submited grip sample.

Could you please post the entire document?

Has anyone seen a picture of the Barrett grip?

1911_Mitch
03-29-2006, 1:47 PM
Begining to look sort of like my "penis" grip posted on the top of page 3 of this thread.

Chaingun
03-29-2006, 3:12 PM
OKOKOK Next! This is my Thumb Hook Design...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ThumbHook.jpg

I'll take one of those.:cool:

It's still a warm and cozy feeling to have some letter from the DOJ saying "it's okay". That would stop any anti-gun LEO in their tracks.

C9X19
03-29-2006, 4:07 PM
It just depends what you are planning to do with it. For a fighting gun, a detachable magzine is more important than a pistol grip. But for target shooting, I prefer having the pistol grip. Reloading is a minor inconvenience. I can still change the configuration if my needs change.

And I've read stories that the upper to lower lock up loosens over time from loading from a fixed mag. That's part of the reason why I won't pin my mag.

SpeedTribe
03-30-2006, 4:49 PM
Hopefully I can break in my new SRB this week. Thanks Bu-bye.
Superior Arms lower
ACE stock
Bushmaster Bullpup mag w/ magpull
Matech rear, YHM front sights
DelTon Upper w/DPMS Compensator, FF handguard, Chrome Bolt

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/SPEEDTRIBE/SRB_Ace1.jpg

Mud
03-31-2006, 6:55 AM
I'll take one of those.:cool:

It's still a warm and cozy feeling to have some letter from the DOJ saying "it's okay". That would stop any anti-gun LEO in their tracks.


If anyone is up for writing a leter to the DOJ and sending the Detent & Spring Retention device (or whatever it should be called) some pictures and an explanation about it, would help us find out what they think. Hopefully in the San Jose/Bay Area so I can meet you to give the Bracket for shipment. Any Takers? The letter can be drafted and shown on this thread to get feedback on it's wording.:) I am working hard on the "CA Project" and can't find the time to get this done. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30568

6172crew
03-31-2006, 7:23 AM
If anyone is up for writing a leter to the DOJ and sending the Detent & Spring Retention device (or whatever it should be called) some pictures and an explanation about it, would help us find out what they think. Hopefully in the San Jose/Bay Area so I can meet you to give the Bracket for shipment. Any Takers? The letter can be drafted and shown on this thread to get feedback on it's wording.:) I am working hard on the "CA Project" and can't find the time to get this done. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30568

The NRA has already agreed to send off a mag catch and has told me they would write the letter, why not have them argue the case for us?:cool:

Dont Tread on Me
04-02-2006, 2:56 PM
I got to shoot Mud's invention today and watch him compete in a 3 gun match. Mud shot as well as anybody who had a grip on his/her AR.

To me, it felt a bit strange but I was able to shoot well both slow and rapid fire. I'm going to buy one if the DOJ find a way not to let us add a pistol grip.

Mesa Tactical
04-04-2006, 1:09 PM
Right after SB23 went into affect, a few vendors attempted to sell AR's with cut-down pistol grips, which is essentially identical to the item being discussed. In response, the DOJ made the following determination.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

From your link:

"THESE RIFLES AS CONFIGURED ARE REGULATED AS ASSAULT WEAPONS"

WTF? The SKS has a detachable magazine, so it's an assault weapon no matter what kind of stock it has.

If it was a normally configured SKS, it would have a fixed magazine so it wouldn't meet the first definition of assault weapon, and so could have any stock you wanted.

vonsmith
05-12-2006, 11:17 AM
Interesting thread. I just came across it. First of all I think the DOJ's definition of what consitutes a "grip" is bogus. How can you call something a grip if you can't even get one finger to wrap around it?

Anyway, there's a lot of good discussion and ideas here. However, think outside the box (I like to say that.). Instead of trying to force the web of the hand higher to be above the arbitrarily assigned "imaginary line", move the "imaginary line" down. Modify the trigger group so that the top exposed part of the trigger is lower. In other words add a glue-on shroud on each side of the lower that covers the top 1/4" or so of the trigger. And then add one of the non-grip designs that has been discussed here.

The trigger would still have the same pivot point and all internals. Do you really need that top 1/4"?

978.20 (e) Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon

This term was originally defined as "any component that allows for the grasp, control, and fire of the firearm where the portion grasped is located beneath an imaginary line drawn parallel to the barrel that runs through the top of the exposed trigger" and noticed during the initial comment period (December 31, 1999 through February 28, 2000). This definition was subject to broad interpretation primarily due to the wording "any component." The definition was accordingly initially revised by replacing "any component" with "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp." The Department believes that the concept of a "pistol style grasp" is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations. This revision: "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp below the top of the exposed trigger" was noticed to the public during the first 15-day notice period (May 10 through May 30, 2000). Subsequent comments resulted in additional modifications. To further clarify the criteria that establishes a "pistol style grasp" and its relationship to a grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, the condition "in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was added to the definition. The revision also reflects a change from "top of the exposed trigger" to "top of the exposed portion of the trigger" because as one contributor pointed out, the former would mean the upper portion of a trigger, a part of which is exposed, with the balance hidden from view in the receiver of the firearm. The final revised definition: "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was noticed during the second 15-day comment period (July 12 through July 31, 2000). Although additional comments were received, no comments were received during the second 15-day comment period that warranted additional revisions to the definition.

Another alternative is legally challenge the DOJ's definition of a pistol grip. In reading the above definition it seems to me that the underlined section would be properly interpreted as meaning a pistol type grasp WHICH ALSO PLACES the web of the trigger hand below the "imaginary line". It seems to me that to be a "pistol grip" it has to have both a pistol type grasp (at least one finger can wrap around the "grip" portion) AND in doing so the web of the trigger hand is below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. I don't see anything that infers that "a pistol type grasp" OR "the web of the trigger hand can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" is non-compliant. I read it as both conditions must exist to be non-compliant. This would mean the ideas presented in this thread would be legal.

I'm not an English major. However English is my first language, I have written many technical documents, and I've had plenty of school to back it up. So what am I overlooking? The DOJ's interpretation of their own definition is so irrational I think it's indefensible.

Any lawyers on forum? Tell me why it isn't so.

=vonsmith=

FluorideInMyWater
05-13-2006, 11:09 AM
Remember the web of the hand must be above the exposed portion of the trigger.

See attached photo for my mock-up.

you know, i was thinking about this......is it illegal to modify the buttstock where it meets the lower (underneath) to make a bit of extra room for a better grip? let see if i can sketch the stock (A2 stock)

----------------------------------------------
\
\ _____
\-------------------------------------/ X \

sorry, it probably does not translate well to a post.

back end<<<<------->>>>connect to lower
yeah, the shap is a bit off the "X" marks the spot that i'm talking about.

kick Z tail out
05-13-2006, 11:15 AM
I think It puts the web of you hand below the line.....
But only slightly. Only way is to send this photo to DOJ and get a letter of approval.
Problem is it looks like it would be useful, and so... The DOJ would shoot it down. :rolleyes: :D


The DOJ only uses regulations when it goes the way they want it to.

vonsmith
05-14-2006, 8:32 AM
I think the DOJ's definition of what consitutes a "grip" is bogus. How can you call something a grip if you can't even get one finger to wrap around it?

978.20 (e) Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon

This term was originally defined as "any component that allows for the grasp, control, and fire of the firearm where the portion grasped is located beneath an imaginary line drawn parallel to the barrel that runs through the top of the exposed trigger" and noticed during the initial comment period (December 31, 1999 through February 28, 2000). This definition was subject to broad interpretation primarily due to the wording "any component." The definition was accordingly initially revised by replacing "any component" with "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp." The Department believes that the concept of a "pistol style grasp" is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations. This revision: "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp below the top of the exposed trigger" was noticed to the public during the first 15-day notice period (May 10 through May 30, 2000). Subsequent comments resulted in additional modifications. To further clarify the criteria that establishes a "pistol style grasp" and its relationship to a grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, the condition "in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was added to the definition. The revision also reflects a change from "top of the exposed trigger" to "top of the exposed portion of the trigger" because as one contributor pointed out, the former would mean the upper portion of a trigger, a part of which is exposed, with the balance hidden from view in the receiver of the firearm. The final revised definition: "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was noticed during the second 15-day comment period (July 12 through July 31, 2000). Although additional comments were received, no comments were received during the second 15-day comment period that warranted additional revisions to the definition.

Another alternative is legally challenge the DOJ's definition of a pistol grip. In reading the above definition it seems to me that the underlined section would be properly interpreted as meaning a pistol type grasp WHICH ALSO PLACES the web of the trigger hand below the "imaginary line". It seems to me that to be a "pistol grip" it has to have both a pistol type grasp (at least one finger can wrap around the "grip" portion) AND in doing so the web of the trigger hand is below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. I don't see anything that infers that "a pistol type grasp" OR "the web of the trigger hand can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" is non-compliant. I read it as both conditions must exist to be non-compliant. This would mean the ideas presented in this thread would be legal.

I'm not an English major. However English is my first language, I have written many technical documents, and I've had plenty of school to back it up. So what am I overlooking? The DOJ's interpretation of their own definition is so irrational I think it's indefensible.

Any lawyers on forum? Tell me why it isn't so.


=vonsmith=