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ajwells
03-24-2006, 3:10 PM
If you get a CCW, can you carry a gun with a loaded amg in it? How about with one in the chamber? I wouldn't do that second one most likely, but want to know whats legal.

Tyler
03-24-2006, 3:16 PM
It would be really unsafe to have a CCW and not be able to have a mag in it, it is legal. I also think it would be unsafe to carry with a round not in the chamber. I carried a Beretta in the air force for 4 years, and it always had a round in the chamber.

PressCheck
03-24-2006, 3:17 PM
If it's not loaded it is just a club, or an expensive paperweight.

50 Freak
03-24-2006, 3:34 PM
Why would you want a CCW if you couldn't carry a loaded mag in the gun?

Do you think a CCW is just for show and tell?

Come-on man. Join the real world.

I have a CCW and carry my pistol with a round in the chamber, and full mag in mag well. Not to mention extra mags (if I feel I'm going to a bad area).

Jeff Rambo
03-24-2006, 3:37 PM
If you get a CCW, can you carry a gun with a loaded amg in it? How about with one in the chamber? I wouldn't do that second one most likely, but want to know whats legal.

I am not even going to read the replies... ARE YOU SERIOUS?

#1 - A CCW IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF CARRYING A LOADED FIREARM IN A CONCEALED FASHION!

#2 - IF YOU ARE CARRYING A GUN EITHER BE IT IN A PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY (SECURITY, LAW ENFORCEMENT, MILITARY, ETC.) OR IN A PRIVATE CAPACITY (CCW, OPEN CARRY, AT YOUR WORK PLACE, ETC.) IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE LOADED WITH ONE IN THE CHAMBER! This is not Israel...

ajwells
03-24-2006, 3:53 PM
jesus.

yeah, i would carry one with a mag in it, as for one in the chamber i could go either way, doesn't take me more than 1/2 a second to load a bullet into the chamber.

and despite all that, i didnt know the law on it, so I was just asking, thank you Tyler for simply answering the question.

StuckInCA
03-24-2006, 4:30 PM
jesus.

yeah, i would carry one with a mag in it, as for one in the chamber i could go either way, doesn't take me more than 1/2 a second to load a bullet into the chamber.
and despite all that, i didnt know the law on it, so I was just asking, thank you Tyler for simply answering the question.


In it takes the bad guy who ALREADY has one locked and cocked half that time to kill you.

If you are "afraid" a gun may go off "by itself", it's a personal struggle within your "inner child" on the saftey issues of carrying loaded gun, and thirdly you don't know if it came down to it, if you could pull the trigger in a live/dont live situation.

Sell yours firearms NOW, and get the thought of a CCW OUT of your mind.

/rant off

-Andy

ajwells
03-24-2006, 4:40 PM
In it takes the bad guy who ALREADY has one locked and cocked half that time to kill you.

If you are "afraid" a gun may go off "by itself", it's a personal struggle within your "inner child" on the saftey issues of carrying loaded gun, and thirdly you don't know if it came down to it, if you could pull the trigger in a live/dont live situation.

Sell yours firearms NOW, and get the thought of a CCW OUT of your mind.

/rant off

-Andy

I'm not retarded, I know its not going to magically go off by itself. I just don't feel the need to have it always fully loaded. Although I can see scenarios where I would need a concealed weapon, I do not see myself in any where I would need that extra 1/2 second. NOT saying that it's not possible. But this has nothing to do with what I was posting about. I WAS JUST ASKING THE LEGALITY OF IT.

thisismyboomstick
03-24-2006, 5:03 PM
Dude, you're in LA. The only answer you need to worry about is NO!!!

QuickOnTheDraw
03-24-2006, 5:07 PM
Ajwells,
Please copy and paste on the video below. It should be "illegal" to not a have a round in the chamber if you have a ccw. Look at the video and you'll see how fast situations arise, trying to chamber a round will most likely cost you your or someone else's life. This guy would have never of had a chance to chamber a round. You'll never be ready in a real life situation if you have to think about chambering a round then making the decision if you can actually shoot and live with killing someone.





http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1785.html

kantstudien
03-24-2006, 5:10 PM
doesn't take me more than 1/2 a second to load a bullet into the chamber

Really, .5 seconds? That's pretty fast. :rolleyes:

I take it you have never had a failure to feed? So what happens when you do your "Israeli" draw and your weapon jams and your a-hole starts to pucker?

donger
03-24-2006, 6:12 PM
Can I say something?

This is a really funny thread. I haven't laughed like this, reading Calguns, in a really long time.

dreamwarrior22
03-24-2006, 6:20 PM
Ajwells,
Please copy and paste on the video below. It should be "illegal" to not a have a round in the chamber if you have a ccw. Look at the video and you'll see how fast situations arise, trying to chamber a round will most likely cost you your or someone else's life. This guy would have never of had a chance to chamber a round. You'll never be ready in a real life situation if you have to think about chambering a round then making the decision if you can actually shoot and live with killing someone.





http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1785.html


Actually, he did not fire off a shot until 2.2 seconds after drawing the gun.

I do agree that it's better to carry with a round in the chamber, but I worry about rechambering rounds.

Justang
03-24-2006, 6:30 PM
In a high stress situation chambering a round is gonna be hard.
I had reservations about keeping a round chambered, but after some thought it's really silly not to keep one chambered. I figured, if I wasn't responsible to have a round in the chamber, then I wasn't responsible enough to carry the gun.

QuickOnTheDraw
03-24-2006, 6:45 PM
dreamwarrior22 Quote:"Actually, he did not fire off a shot until 2.2 seconds after drawing the gun.

I do agree that it's better to carry with a round in the chamber, but I worry about rechambering rounds."

Are you for real! What do you mean here. Look at this hotel clerk, he see's the robber coming in so he gets up and shows his left hand as he goes toward the cash tilt. He conceals his right hand and gun behind the other teller. He drew his gun right into firing position..he never had time to chamber a round....are you saying you could do chamber a round in this situation? And whats does you last statement mean? I do agree that it's better to carry with a round in the chamber, but I worry about rechambering rounds."

You can't be quick on the draw if you have to first chamber a round?

DParker
03-24-2006, 6:47 PM
I assume you are asking about automatics. These guns are designed to be carried with one in the chamber. Assuming you are smart enough to use an appropriate holster that protects the trigger, there is no problem.

Bad situations rarely develop like you want them to. However you carry, you should be able to quickly draw and fire using one hand. You may not have access to the other hand to rack the slide...plus many autos (especially the smaller ones) don't always feed well when manually racked.

If that bothers you, I suggest carrying a modern revolver fully loaded. With transfer bars, the hammer is not touching the primer in any way.

MadMex
03-24-2006, 6:58 PM
Lighten up vicious people. Too much lower neurosis these days. Where’s the love?

AJ, as a point of reference, most shooting schools teach the “21 foot rule.” That is, if an assailant is closer than 21 feet, the average armed good guy (with a round chambered) will be challenged to draw his firearm and successfully engage the target in a timely fashion. An assailant will close the gap and be in your face in a fraction of a second. Adding the time it would take to chamber a round puts the good guy at an extreme disadvantage. Add the element of surprise and you’ve written your own ticket.

QuickOnTheDraw
03-24-2006, 7:03 PM
Lighten up vicious people. Too much lower neurosis these days. Where’s the love?

AJ, as a point of reference, most shooting schools teach the “21 foot rule.” That is, if an assailant is closer than 21 feet, the average armed good guy (with a round chambered) will be challenged to draw his firearm and successfully engage the target in a timely fashion. An assailant will close the gap and be in your face in a fraction of a second. Adding the time it would take to chamber a round puts the good guy at an extreme disadvantage. Add the element of surprise and you’ve written your own ticket.

I concur....

Rumpled
03-24-2006, 8:27 PM
Cocked and locked would be the only way to carry.

m1371
03-24-2006, 9:17 PM
AJ, as a point of reference, most shooting schools teach the “21 foot rule.” That is, if an assailant is closer than 21 feet, the average armed good guy (with a round chambered) will be challenged to draw his firearm and successfully engage the target in a timely fashion. An assailant will close the gap and be in your face in a fraction of a second. Adding the time it would take to chamber a round puts the good guy at an extreme disadvantage. Add the element of surprise and you’ve written your own ticket.

+1 on the above.

A good way illustrate this is to test it on a range with a Tueller Drill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

You would be surprised how far someone can get before a shooter can get their firearm out and engage a target. The "21 Foot Rule" is rapidly being lengthened.

Now take into account the fact that drawing from concealment slows down your reaction time and there's also the "Oh, *****....." factor to contend with. Things can go south VERY fast. :(


To add comments on the original post, there is no reason to carry without a round in the chamber unless you've been trained to shoot "Israeli-style".

I know there is a lot of derision among folks about this style of carry, but I've had the opportunity to work with Israelis and shoot with them. The technique works for them because they train to that standard.

I've seen some freaking FAST shooting from Israelis, but these are guys who drill drill drill continuously at it.

Works for some, not for others.

Me, I always carry with one in the chamber.....

C.G.
03-24-2006, 9:38 PM
Ajwells,
Please copy and paste on the video below. It should be "illegal" to not a have a round in the chamber if you have a ccw. Look at the video and you'll see how fast situations arise, trying to chamber a round will most likely cost you your or someone else's life. This guy would have never of had a chance to chamber a round. You'll never be ready in a real life situation if you have to think about chambering a round then making the decision if you can actually shoot and live with killing someone.





http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1785.html

It looks like it has happened to him before.

tenpercentfirearms
03-24-2006, 11:08 PM
Why is everyone being so stupid? This guy asks a question and instead of helping educate him and tell him it is not only perfectly safe, but highly advisable to carry a round in the chamber, you all act like a bunch of penis heads.

I remember when I was 18 and first found out cops carry handguns cocked and locked. I didn't know, it didn't seem that safe to me. Then I learned that not only is it safe, it is the only way to go. I sure am glad the officer that taught me to be a gun fighter didn't tell me, "You dumb *****, of course we carry a round in the chamber. In fact, that was such a stupid question you should not only never get a CCW, but you should sell all your guns because you are a dumb flunk!"

Imagine this, he trained me, got me thinking, and I have had my CCW now for over 6 years. I carry my Glock 27 ready to go all of the time. I am thankful people didn't treat me like you people are treating this guy. Mellow out and try educating people instead of berating them. Jerks.

gmcem50
03-24-2006, 11:12 PM
Why is everyone being so stupid? This guy asks a question and instead of helping educate him and tell him it is not only perfectly safe, but highly advisable to carry a round in the chamber, you all act like a bunch of penis heads... ...Mellow out and try educating people instead of berating them. Jerks.


+1!.......

CowtownBallin
03-25-2006, 12:05 AM
"Cocked and locked"

Not every gun has a manual safety.

I prefer guns that don't (GLOCK, SIG-Sauer, CZ75BD, Walther P99, etc.) so for me, it's just called "don't go near the trigger" :D

tenpercentfirearms
03-25-2006, 7:46 AM
I just realized I might have been being hypocritical by telling you to educate people and not berating them and immediately there after calling you all jerks. Sorry, but you deserved it so I will not edit my comments as I think my tone is important. Either help a guy out or just leave it alone. Thanks.

QuickOnTheDraw
03-25-2006, 8:29 AM
Why is everyone being so stupid? This guy asks a question and instead of helping educate him and tell him it is not only perfectly safe, but highly advisable to carry a round in the chamber, you all act like a bunch of penis heads.

I remember when I was 18 and first found out cops carry handguns cocked and locked. I didn't know, it didn't seem that safe to me. Then I learned that not only is it safe, it is the only way to go. I sure am glad the officer that taught me to be a gun fighter didn't tell me, "You dumb *****, of course we carry a round in the chamber. In fact, that was such a stupid question you should not only never get a CCW, but you should sell all your guns because you are a dumb flunk!"

Imagine this, he trained me, got me thinking, and I have had my CCW now for over 6 years. I carry my Glock 27 ready to go all of the time. I am thankful people didn't treat me like you people are treating this guy. Mellow out and try educating people instead of berating them. Jerks.

thats funny..you call people penis heads!..then say sorry, but you deserved it...and your a teacher too! hope your not teaching this to our kids. just kidding...not!

Jedi
03-25-2006, 8:40 AM
ajwells,

The answer to your question is that it is not only legal for someone with a CCW to carry their firearm loaded and with one in the chamber, it is something that most people are trained to do.

Lets look at the concept of a CCW. The idea is that the individual is likely to find themself in a position where they will need to use deadly force to protect their life. When such a situation presents itself, there are a few important things to remember:

In almost all situations, the threatening subject will already have an advantage over you. In particular, they may already have made a clear decision on what action they will be taking. Basically, they are further along in their OODA loop than you are.
The opporatunity to draw a concealed firearm is hard to find when a threatening subject has the barrel of a pistol pointed at your head. Forget all of the super ninja stuff you see in the movies where someone spins in slow motion, pushing the suspects gun away and drawing theirs... not going to happen.
If the opporatunity to draw a concealed firearm is presented, it will generally need to be done without drawing the attention of the threatening subject. Slapping a magazine in and/or racking the slide to chamber a round is certainly something that will get their attention and will most likely end with catastropic results.
As was previously mentioned, a firearm without a magazine or a round in the chamber is just a club.
All modern firearms have internal safety systems, reguardless of a manual safety. In particular, they have a firing pin safety either released by the trigger or backstrap safety. This prevents, in theory, an accidental discharge caused by dropping the weapon or lowering the hammer.


The reaction of many posters here is simply because they can't understand why someone would even consider carrying a firearm in a condition that it is simply a club.

harley66
03-25-2006, 12:33 PM
ajwells,

The answer to your question is that it is not only legal for someone with a CCW to carry their firearm loaded and with one in the chamber, it is something that most people are trained to do.

Lets look at the concept of a CCW. The idea is that the individual is likely to find themself in a position where they will need to use deadly force to protect their life. When such a situation presents itself, there are a few important things to remember:

In almost all situations, the threatening subject will already have an advantage over you. In particular, they may already have made a clear decision on what action they will be taking. Basically, they are further along in their OODA loop than you are.
The opporatunity to draw a concealed firearm is hard to find when a threatening subject has the barrel of a pistol pointed at your head. Forget all of the super ninja stuff you see in the movies where someone spins in slow motion, pushing the suspects gun away and drawing theirs... not going to happen.
If the opporatunity to draw a concealed firearm is presented, it will generally need to be done without drawing the attention of the threatening subject. Slapping a magazine in and/or racking the slide to chamber a round is certainly something that will get their attention and will most likely end with catastropic results.
As was previously mentioned, a firearm without a magazine or a round in the chamber is just a club.
All modern firearms have internal safety systems, reguardless of a manual safety. In particular, they have a firing pin safety either released by the trigger or backstrap safety. This prevents, in theory, an accidental discharge caused by dropping the weapon or lowering the hammer.


The reaction of many posters here is simply because they can't understand why someone would even consider carrying a firearm in a condition that it is simply a club.


I could not agree more - the only thing I woud add - what ever weapon a person would choose to carry - they must practice with it to be able to shoot the way the person did on the video - I took a 5 day class on handguns with "gunsite" after 5 days working with a 1911 - removing the saftey will be done with out even thinking about it - the saftey comes off as the weapon is brought on target and is put back as it goes back into the holster - you will do this so many times that your thumb will either be very sore or get a blister - Those 5 days were GREAT - I only wish I had someones elses "Visa" to be able to go back..

In watching the video - did the BG come in with a "mask"? and what do you think the shooter did after firing? he moves left of the camera, then goes out and kicks away the BG's weapon... I thougth he did a very good job - Mommy and child were very close but all seemed to work out... Does anyone know "the rest of the story"???

Back to the posters orig question... at least he had the guts to ask...

maxicon
03-25-2006, 1:51 PM
Back before there were gun forums, there was (and still is) the newsgroup rec.guns. There was a regular there who killed someone who attacked him in his pawn shop with a samurai sword, and his posts on the whole subject are pretty illuminating.

He gives a no-BS overview of what it's like to be involved in something like that, how your mind doesn't always work the way you'd expect it to, the value of training, and the value of having a round in the chamber when stuff happens.

Here's a particularly good post by him on the incident:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/msg/4c92fba3899415b6?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

Hi Gang;
It's late, so if my memory is bad, please don't blame me :-) In actuality, the jerk got me first with the damn sword, and we had a pretty good fight at the time. For some dumb reason or another, I'd had my Glock lying on my file cabinet under the desk, and it was simply too far away to get to. Probably the first time in over ten years I didn't have it on me.

Haven't made that mistake since :-)

Anyway, since I seemed to be getting the worst of things, for some stupid reason or another, I figured I'd go to the back room (office) and grab a 38 out of my desk drawer.

When I look back on it, I was REALLY stupid. I ran past a loaded AK, with a drum mag in it, a Beretta 92 that was loaded, and just concentrated on my 38 in my desk drawer :-) Now, all of this garbage was running through my mind, like crap through a goose, and the whole time I was trying to stay away from a three ft blade from a nut that had stabbed me four times already.

I didn't bother to turn on the light in the office when I finally was able to access it, and didn't see whatever it was on the floor that I tripped over, and went sprawling on the top of my desk. I think my computer is still goofed up from it. Anyway, as I went sprawling on the desk, I just then remembered that I'd taken the damn 38 apart the day before to clean it, and it was not even assembled, let alone loaded. yeeehaaa. When I got up and turned to face the jerk, he then gave me the real good one to the gut with the sword. We danced around the office for awhile, until we got back to the office door, and about then I remembered my 25 in my pocket. uh, duh.

That was about it. I only remember shooting two or maybe three rounds, but in actuality fired five. Four went into the left eye cavity, and the other one somehow made it through one of his hands, and all the way through my front office steel cased door into the parking lot. Just dumb luck I made it through that one alive.

I learned quite a few good lessons from that scenario, and the number one was always have a gun handy.

Second one would be vindicating my policy of having a round in the chamber. If I would have had an empty chamber, there's NO way I could have charged the piece one handed at that particular time, with that particular piece. It was bad enough to thumb back the hammer before firing, but I'd practiced with it a lot, so it was almost second nature. I actually do not remember much about thumbing the hammer back, but obviously did.

And yes, it still bothers me. There isn't a day that goes by that someone doesn't come into the store and ask "Are you the one?" "Is this where some guy stabbed someone?" "Is this where a guy was shot?" "Is this where 'it' happened?" "If it were me, I'd never have let anyone get that close to me." "I'd sure have done it all different if it were me." and so on and so forth ad nauseum, especially from the arm chair warriors.

So, as a partial result of the incident, I'm in the process of closing the store, and will go into something else a little more anonymous. I find I can no longer deal with the general public, and have no desire to anymore.

By just being here on that particular day, I was catapulted into the public's eye in a small town, and believe you me, I'd just a soon not be known for what happened. My own personal health has gone to crap, as well as my wonderful wife's, so it is time to do something else with my time.

Being able to defend oneself is a great thing if necessary. I'd highly recommend it to anyone, as opposed to the alternative. However, even with being somewhat successful with defending myself, there have been severe personal consequences that I've had to try to overcome. Still beats the dirt nap, though :-)

I really hope someday that I'll be remembered for something more worthy than the taking of someone's life in a stupid pawn shop. I do make a conscious effort daily to that effect. Thanks for everyone's understanding. This group has been wonderful to me the past few years, and I do appreciate it very much.

blkA4alb
03-25-2006, 1:59 PM
If it's not loaded it is just a club, or an expensive paperweight.
admin can you please request that presscheck remove his avatar, it is disgusting. and inappropriate. thank you.

tenpercentfirearms
03-25-2006, 9:05 PM
thats funny..you call people penis heads!..No I said they were acting like penis heads. The question you have to ask yourself is what does my profession have to do with this topic and the behavior of some of our board members? Nothing, just another cheap shot at a person instead of his argument.

just kidding...not!I remember when "not" was in during the late 80's and early 90's. I think we have since moved on.

As everyone has stated, you want as much of an advantage in a lethal force situation as possible. Think about just the decision making time. Sure I can draw and shoot two rounds from concealment in under 2.0 seconds, but that is because I am standing on the firing line with a timer and I know the buzz is coming. In real life you have to add in the decision time to recognize someone is a threat and evaluate your next move. I would rather be concentrating on that rather than loading my pistol. I have been carrying a Glock for 6 years now I have yet to shoot myself with it. It is not only safe to carry ready to fire, it is simply the best way to carry. Except for the Israelis, I don't think anyone else carries unloaded and do they even do that anymore?

m1371
03-25-2006, 11:51 PM
Except for the Israelis, I don't think anyone else carries unloaded and do they even do that anymore?

Yes, they still do.

Quite a few Israelis around who have hung out the instructor shingle and are teaching their style of shooting. Works for them, great. This ain't Israel.

I personally agree with training as much as possible and am open to incorporating new techniques & skills into my day-to-day routine. But I still carry with a round in the chamber.

California-Quigley
03-26-2006, 11:08 AM
referencing some of the earlier posts..... what is this 21 foot rule. that is complete B.S.

it is mere..... perception , decision, reaction time.... 3/4 sec perception.... (see the threat.... oh crap factor) [decision.... what do i do?] 3/4 second{reaction....run, fight, take cover, pray}

no matter how you play it. you have burned 1.5 seconds just realizin what you have...

keep one in the pipe!.. train, train, train..... constantly drill yourself... what if...

oh yeah, train like you want to live....

it has kept me alive..... twice....

ALTSEC972
03-26-2006, 2:48 PM
[QUOTE=m1371].......To add comments on the original post, there is no reason to carry without a round in the chamber unless you've been trained to shoot "Israeli-style".

I know there is a lot of derision among folks about this style of carry, but I've had the opportunity to work with Israelis and shoot with them. The technique works for them because they train to that standard.

I've seen some freaking FAST shooting from Israelis, but these are guys who drill drill drill continuously at it.
[QUOTE]
+1 on that! I never chamber the 1st round until I use it, no matter what. We ran a clock on a group of ipsic shooters in Israel recently...... average time diff was under 1/4 sec (chambered vs. unchambered)... but groupings weren't as tight when they started chambered.... go figure.

California-Quigley
03-26-2006, 4:49 PM
"Cocked and locked"

Not every gun has a manual safety.

I prefer guns that don't (GLOCK, SIG-Sauer, CZ75BD, Walther P99, etc.) so for me, it's just called "don't go near the trigger" :D

every gun has a manual safety.... it is your finger!!!

rule #3
keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned on the target and you intend to shoot!

Brass Balls
03-26-2006, 7:47 PM
As to carrying without a round in the chamber, consider this. You may need your off hand to hold off or strike an attacker just to gain the time and ability to draw with your strong hand.

The Tueller drill is worth knowing about, but I think it is important to keep in mind that an armed robber isn't likely to display their weapon and state their intentions from better than a car length away. In addition to that the use of lethal force is only authorized when one has an honest and reasonable belief that they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury.

Essentially one can only use lethal force when they are faced with lethal force. This mostly means, cases of disparity of force aside, that the bad guy must have a weapon like a knife, gun or club that you reasonably believe he is going to kill or maim you with before you can draw your weapon.

The reality of this puts you seriously behind the curve because the bad guy will have weapon in hand and will be in the process of carrying out his plan of attack. If that bad guy has half a brain he's going to disguise his intentions and conceal his weapon until he can get close to you. You on the other hand, even if you are carrying a gun, are forced into the position of responding to an attack in progress.

The condition of Israeli police carry doesn't correlate very well to civilian carry, as a police officer is most often responding to known trouble. This forewarning gives them the time to formulate a plan and draw and chamber before it is needed. It isn't likely that the civilian will have such notice and will most certainly be on defense not offense.

I think this is worth considering when deciding on what condition to carry a sidearm.

m1371
03-26-2006, 8:52 PM
As to carrying without a round in the chamber, consider this. You may need your off hand to hold off or strike an attacker just to gain the time and ability to draw with your strong hand.

The Tueller drill is worth knowing about, but I think it is important to keep in mind that an armed robber isn't likely to display their weapon and state their intentions from better than a car length away. In addition to that the use of lethal force is only authorized when one has an honest and reasonable belief that they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury.

Essentially one can only use lethal force when they are faced with lethal force. This mostly means, cases of disparity of force aside, that the bad guy must have a weapon like a knife, gun or club that you reasonably believe he is going to kill or maim you with before you can draw your weapon.

The reality of this puts you seriously behind the curve because the bad guy will have weapon in hand and will be in the process of carrying out his plan of attack. If that bad guy has half a brain he's going to disguise his intentions and conceal his weapon until he can get close to you. You on the other hand, even if you are carrying a gun, are forced into the position of responding to an attack in progress.

The condition of Israeli police carry doesn't correlate very well to civilian carry, as a police officer is most often responding to known trouble. This forewarning gives them the time to formulate a plan and draw and chamber before it is needed. It isn't likely that the civilian will have such notice and will most certainly be on defense not offense.

I think this is worth considering when deciding on what condition to carry a sidearm.


My only comments I would add is that the "Israeli-carry" doesn't apply just to their police forces. During my time spent in Israel and working with Israelis, the majority of the "civilians" who are conceal-carrying over there are doing so with an empty chamber.

I personally know of at least half-dozen Israelis locally (SoCal & LV area) with CCW permits who are NOT carrying with rounds in the chamber.

As was noted previously by ALTSEC972, someone who has trained to standard for shooting "Israeli-style" is capable of getting a shot off nearly as fast as someone who is starting out with a round in the chamber. Chambering a round is part of the draw-stroke while punching the handgun out towards the target.

I would disagree with your comments here:
The condition of Israeli police carry doesn't correlate very well to civilian carry, as a police officer is most often responding to known trouble. This forewarning gives them the time to formulate a plan and draw and chamber before it is needed. It isn't likely that the civilian will have such notice and will most certainly be on defense not offense.

Jedi
03-26-2006, 9:04 PM
As someone who has never had the chance to take a CCW course, I am curious. Do the classes go into things like reaction times, the OODA loop, and muscle memory?

It seems to me that these would be three crucial things to discuss in such a course. After all, the person taking the course is doing so in preperation for an event where they will need to be able to judge reaction time vs. distance from a subject, where being able to disrupt the subjects decission making process (some place between O and A) may make the difference between life and death, and where most of their actions (drawing, aquiring the frint sight, breathing, and pulling the trigger) will be based on muscle memory and not reasoning or logic.

All of that should help anyone make the decission for themself if they want to carry with a round in the chamber or not... they will be the one that needs to build the muscle memory to draw and rack the slide in one motion.

m1371
03-26-2006, 9:16 PM
As someone who has never had the chance to take a CCW course, I am curious. Do the classes go into things like reaction times, the OODA loop, and muscle memory?

It seems to me that these would be three crucial things to discuss in such a course. After all, the person taking the course is doing so in preperation for an event where they will need to be able to judge reaction time vs. distance from a subject, where being able to disrupt the subjects decission making process (some place between O and A) may make the difference between life and death, and where most of their actions (drawing, aquiring the frint sight, breathing, and pulling the trigger) will be based on muscle memory and not reasoning or logic.

All of that should help anyone make the decission for themself if they want to carry with a round in the chamber or not... they will be the one that needs to build the muscle memory to draw and rack the slide in one motion.


In my experience, yes.

I did my CCW initial app & subsequent renewals through FTA ( http://www.ftatv.com/fta__classes_ccw.html ) and have nothing but good comments for them. The lead instructor, Bill Murphy, is a SWAT officer with a large OC PD and knows his stuff.

Personally I would recommend getting into a CCW class regardless of whether you are applying for one or not. The info you'll get is very good and ranges across a wide variety of subjects from legal issues, application of deadly force, "hardware" selection issues, shooting techniques, etc etc. Well worth the $$$ spent IMO.

StuckInCA
03-26-2006, 9:44 PM
In my experience, yes.

I did my CCW initial app & subsequent renewals through FTA ( http://www.ftatv.com/fta__classes_ccw.html ) and have nothing but good comments for them. The lead instructor, Bill Murphy, is a SWAT officer with a large OC PD and knows his stuff.

Personally I would recommend getting into a CCW class regardless of whether you are applying for one or not. The info you'll get is very good and ranges across a wide variety of subjects from legal issues, application of deadly force, "hardware" selection issues, shooting techniques, etc etc. Well worth the $$$ spent IMO.

+100

FTA and Mr. Murphy are AWESOME. Did my course thru them, and will go back for renewals and other classes.


-Andy

Apeman88
03-28-2006, 12:22 AM
A little off topic here... but after viewing that video... did the clerk have the right to shoot since it seemed the BG turned and headed for the door when the clerk drew his weapon? There was a moment in pause after the clerk drew his weapon and the BG heading for the door.... and then the clerk shot the BG in the back.

To me... the "threat" was no longer a threat as soon as he turned and headed for the door. Yes, he was trying to escape but looked like escape empty handed.

I also remember something about shooting a person in the back while he's running away is a no-no.

Just trying to understand a person's "right" to shoot.

Ken

tenpercentfirearms
03-28-2006, 6:24 AM
"The man had a gun and I thought he was trying to seek cover so he could harm me."

m1371
03-28-2006, 9:11 AM
A little off topic here... but after viewing that video... did the clerk have the right to shoot since it seemed the BG turned and headed for the door when the clerk drew his weapon? There was a moment in pause after the clerk drew his weapon and the BG heading for the door.... and then the clerk shot the BG in the back.

To me... the "threat" was no longer a threat as soon as he turned and headed for the door. Yes, he was trying to escape but looked like escape empty handed.

I also remember something about shooting a person in the back while he's running away is a no-no.

Just trying to understand a person's "right" to shoot.

Ken

Ken-

Okay, here's a few thoughts for you to toss around in your head.

"Suspect" (using the term loosely) commits a violent felonious crime. Can you / should you shoot him(her) as they flee the scene of the crime?

Depending on the severity of the crime committed I would leans towards a "YES" answer based upon the concept of preventing the escape of someone who has (known to you) committed a violent felony.

I believe there would be issues involved (especially in a civil trial) if there was any indication you were acting in retaliation, particularly if it was viewed as being a "non-violent crime". For example, a simple case of burglary where you scare the intruder away, no weapons visible to you and there was no imminent threat. Do you pursue the intruder or let them escape?

On the flip side of the coin, let's look at a home invasion scenario. You (the man of the house) are subdued, beaten and your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother/daughter is raped/molested/sexually assaulted. As the intruder exits the premises you free yourself and pursue the assailant(s) with a firearm. Would your actions be viewed as preventing the escape of a known violent felon? Would your actions be viewed as acting in the greater good and attempting to protect the community as a whole by preventing the escape of a known violent felon?

I know these are two examples that are both at opposite ends of the spectrum, but I think that under further analysis you can see where I am going with this.

In YOUR MIND would the assailant present a continuing threat if they were to escape? For a scenario involving armed robbery, quite possibly yes.

I know it has been pointed out previously, but each individual has to make the decision whether to shoot/no-shoot. Applies to every scenario.

NOTE: I'd like to add that I am not a law enforcement officer or a lawyer and my opinions are only presented for the sake of discussion! I am basing my opinions off the principles for the use of deadly force as was presented to me over many years in the Marines, several years of application of deadly force discussion in the security industry and conversations with numerous LEOs that I have occasionally worked with over the years. What I think is not necessarily what everyone else would agree with.

Hope this helps you a bit and provides "food for thought" on the application of deadly force.

Also supports my previous comments regarding everyone attending a CCW permit class, even if you are not applying for the permit. The info provided there can be very enlightening and can also clarify many things which we as gunowners may or may not be aware of.


Matt