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View Full Version : Law Enforcement still Unaware of the Offlist Lowers


shopkeep
03-23-2006, 6:46 PM
Earlier this week I dropped by my Brother-in-law's house to pick up some CDs. He's a police officer so I asked him if they got a memo from the DOJ about the offlist lowers. He answered "no". I explained the situation to him and asked if he was aware of it. Again, he said "no".

So throughout the week I decided to repeat this experiment. I asked various Law Enforcement officers I know who work around my business. They also said they had recieved no memo and were completely unaware of the situation.

So my question is: why is the _ONLY_ memo and _ONLY_ admission of the situation located on an obscure section of a division of the CA DOJ?

Jicko
03-23-2006, 6:48 PM
Did you ask your bro-in-law and other LEO whether they will bust you or not? Maybe... they dont freaking care..... and they will just let you have your CA-legal AR.... and if you tell them more, maybe they will jump in and get some for themselves too!

icormba
03-23-2006, 6:53 PM
I asked / told only one of my buddies about it.

His reply...

"I already got mine".
i.e. Pre Y2K.

shopkeep
03-23-2006, 7:18 PM
Did you ask your bro-in-law and other LEO whether they will bust you or not? Maybe... they dont freaking care..... and they will just let you have your CA-legal AR.... and if you tell them more, maybe they will jump in and get some for themselves too!

My brother-in-law is very conservative so I doubt his views reflect the rest of the force. He says, "AR-15s are just long guns, I don't really care if someone has one unless its being used in a crime in progress or in an investigation". He also says most LEOs gave up years ago on trying to sort out all the AW laws and are more concerned with criminals and felons who unlawfully possess firearms.

Ford8N
03-23-2006, 7:29 PM
My brother-in-law is very conservative so I doubt his views reflect the rest of the force. He says, "AR-15s are just long guns, I don't really care if someone has one unless its being used in a crime in progress or in an investigation". He also says most LEOs gave up years ago on trying to sort out all the AW laws and are more concerned with criminals and felons who unlawfully possess firearms.


I hear the same thing.

6172crew
03-23-2006, 7:33 PM
Evertime I think about walking up to a cop and asking if he wants to buy a AR-15 I think he might not take it like I meant.:o

So far my guys have helped out 2 PDs that I know of. I will let them speak up themselves.;)

I work in Oakland and most of those guys seem really cool but unless Im already talking with them I wont ask.:cool:

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 8:13 PM
The only Police Officers that know about the 'off-list' situation are the ones who have come to our store to purchase them.... I can honestly say that I've personally sold to at least 20 officers myself, not including any 5 of my fellow co-workers might have.

San Jose PD, Merge, and SCCO Sheriffs have come in numerous times... they don't care. They look at them for a few moments and then pass onto whatever items they did come to look at, nor do we hide the fact that we sell them. They usually just come to hang out... sometimes to do transfers, sometimes to buy, and other times when they have a few minutes and are in the area...

For the most part, they just don't care.

one417
03-23-2006, 8:49 PM
He also says most LEOs gave up years ago on trying to sort out all the AW laws and are more concerned with criminals and felons who unlawfully possess firearms.

THAT'S WHAT I"VE BEEN TELLING MOST CIVIES!!! Go get your lowers!!! :) and yes,,,,most of my fellow LEO's DO NOT CARE ABOUT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS OWNING WEAPONS. We care about the bad guys that use weapons in commission of crimes. If you don't fall into that category, you shouldn't fret......but do your part in educating those (LEO's) that aren't familiar with the firearm laws.

6172crew
03-23-2006, 10:33 PM
THAT'S WHAT I"VE BEEN TELLING MOST CIVIES!!! Go get your lowers!!! :) and yes,,,,most of my fellow LEO's DO NOT CARE ABOUT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS OWNING WEAPONS. We care about the bad guys that use weapons in commission of crimes. If you don't fall into that category, you shouldn't fret......but do your part in educating those (LEO's) that aren't familiar with the firearm laws.

I have a good buddy at the Lomita station, he bought 2.:D

Tyler
03-23-2006, 11:26 PM
Yeah, my father-in-law is a county sheriff and the first he heard about the off list lowers was from me. He has still not had a memo or any other off list lower letter sent to him. He thinks the assault weapon ban is ridiculous, and says what some other people have said, they are just long guns. He also thinks the ban on standard mags is an idiotic law. He is very pro CCW and gives them out to any law abiding citizens that apply, should be getting mine this summer. There are more pro gun law enforcement in this state than people think there is, and good sheriffs like him give me hope for the state. But from what I hear So-Cal does not have the same luck as we do in the north.

m1371
03-24-2006, 10:30 AM
My brother-in-law is very conservative so I doubt his views reflect the rest of the force. He says, "AR-15s are just long guns, I don't really care if someone has one unless its being used in a crime in progress or in an investigation". He also says most LEOs gave up years ago on trying to sort out all the AW laws and are more concerned with criminals and felons who unlawfully possess firearms.

A buddy of mine that I work with from time to time when he's off-duty from OCSD said damn near the same thing when I talked to him back in Dec about the whole "off-list lower" thing.

The next thing he said was, "So where do I get mine?" :D

Needless to say, he got a lower and told several buddies on the SD who also were interested.

PistolKidd
03-24-2006, 11:00 AM
When I told my brother about the whole legal lower thing some weeks back, he ran out and bought some lowers as well.. he said that while he was dros'ing them, there was a group of police officers, (3-4) of them in line, drosing there own lowers as well!!

My concern comes mainly from the idea that some unknowning LEO will pull up and become immediately preoccupied with an offlist lower.. there was that thread about the guy with the ATF approved pistol grip and detachable magazine a ltitle while ago.. the one where he was stopped by the sherrif's dept and had the commanding officer come out and say he narrowly avoided being arrested..

narrowly escaping "confinement" or 'harassment" due to someone else's understanding of the law seems to damn precarious.. :mad:

bwiese
03-24-2006, 11:39 AM
My concern comes mainly from the idea that some unknowning LEO will pull up and become immediately preoccupied with an offlist lower.. there was that thread about the guy with the ATF approved pistol grip and detachable magazine a ltitle while ago... the one where he was stopped by the sherrif's dept and had the commanding officer come out and say he narrowly avoided being arrested....

He's lucky, because that could we'll've been a sustainable charge/conviction - multiple 12280(a) felony counts (mfgr and transport of unreg'd AW) along w/a 12280(b) violation.

I bet the concern was less over the off-list lower than the general configuration.

The 978.20 definition of pistol grip is murky, subject to interpretation by both DOJ and local DAs, and someone with gloved fat hands could end up making something thought to be a non-pistol-grip into a pistol grip. Frankly I would not even rely on a DOJ letter affirming a certain pistol grip was legal because a local DA could readily argue otherwise.

This is far, far different than the clear, no room for interpretation, easy-to-read 978.20 definition of what is (and thus is not) a detachable magazine - and which really isn't subject to interpretation.

And ATF approval for pistol grips is irrelevant since it relates to ATF's definition, in relation to a law that is now expired. CA has its own regulatory definition, and under that the FAB10 grip may not be legal, or in such a grey area no rational person would touch it.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy in that sceario recounted above was (1) an idiot and (2) very very lucky.

narrowly escaping "confinement" or 'harassment" due to someone else's understanding of the law seems to damn precarious.. :mad:

Um, frankly, the cop was either a nice guy, or misinformed-in-a-favorable direction - or both.

DON'T PLAY EDGE CONDITIONS WITH MODIFIED PISTOL GRIPS ON AWs.

EITHER HAVE A LEGAL CONFIGURATION ALLOWING A PISTOL GRIP, OR DO NOT HAVE A PISTOL GRIP AT ALL.

jvc707
03-24-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm LE and I first heard about it late last year. Like most I said, " Yeah right!?!?! I don't think you can do that." I didn't give it a second thought. It popped up again by accident reading some forum. I did some research and found it was true. Several hundred $$$ later I have 3. I talked to some friends at other departments and they said "off-list? what's that?" I explianed it and now they have 2-3 even 4.

Frankly I'm all for it. Just do it the legal and right way that I know you all have been doing.

My $.02

California-Quigley
03-25-2006, 8:20 PM
all of my LEO buddies know about it. they are the ones who told me. they have all bought many lowers. i have bought 3.... so together between me and my LEO buddies we have 16lowers on hand.... very cool!

thmpr
03-25-2006, 8:24 PM
all of my LEO buddies know about it. they are the ones who told me. they have all bought many uppers. i have bought 3.... so together between me and my LEO buddies we have 16lowers on hand.... very cool!



So does that mean the 58 DAs will prosecute the LEOs as well? :p So how the hell some FFLs do not want to touch the lower frenzy? Even the LEOs are on top of this situation.

m1371
03-25-2006, 10:26 PM
So does that mean the 58 DAs will prosecute the LEOs as well? :p So how the hell some FFLs do not want to touch the lower frenzy? Even the LEOs are on top of this situation.


I wouldn't necessarily say that, as it seems the LEOs who are getting in on the lower thing are into guns.

There are quite a few members of the law enforcement community who are clueless when it comes to firearms (and the regulations, too) and are only armed because they have to be.

Not bashing on cops or anything, just pointing that out.

Surveyor
03-26-2006, 12:06 AM
Attitude is usually the difference between going home and going to jail. I have been arrested and booked by Davis PD for gun charges that the anti-gun Yolo county D.A. (at the time) laughed at and refused to prosecute. I have also been let go with a warning by Solano County SD when they could have easily busted me for several charges. In the first case, my attitude and DPDs' attitude was poor. I was legally transporting a broken down AT-22 carbine from target shooting when a good Davis liberal called 1 time on me. I knew that I was legal because I had called DPD ahead of time. They showed up and shook me down. (Ever see a felony bicycle stop? No? Only in Davis.) I was indignant to say the least. And they were as arrogant as I was indignant! (Which was a lot!) In the second case, well, lets just say I had a positive attitude and I showed enough good judgment that they cut me some serious slack. SCSD also had a good sense of humor and great attitudes! I guess my point is that if you're a d1ck to the cops you're in trouble. ("This is an off-lister you schmuck! Hey my taxes pay your salary!")
If you treat them like you want to be treated, they might be able to use a little discretion and let you go home. A good attitude could prevent your butt from being locked up until the DA/judge/jury decides that wasn't really a pistol grip after all.

blacklisted
03-26-2006, 12:08 AM
I was stopped on my bicycle by a fish and game officer for speeding and running a stop sign. :D

This was before I got my driver's license, and he had to tell me several times that he could give me a ticket if he wanted to that would prevent me from getting my license for a year or something.

Attitude is usually the difference between going home and going to jail. I have been arrested and booked by Davis PD for gun charges that the anti-gun Yolo county D.A. (at the time) laughed at and refused to prosecute. I have also been let go with a warning by Solano County SD when they could have easily busted me for several charges. In the first case, my attitude and DPDs' attitude was poor. I was legally transporting a broken down AT-22 carbine from target shooting when a good Davis liberal called 1 time on me. I knew that I was legal because I had called DPD ahead of time. They showed up and shook me down. (Ever see a felony bicycle stop? No? Only in Davis.) I was indignant to say the least. And they were as arrogant as I was indignant! (Which was a lot!) In the second case, well, lets just say I had a positive attitude and I showed enough good judgment that they cut me some serious slack. SCSD also had a good sense of humor and great attitudes! I guess my point is that if you're a d1ck to the cops you're in trouble. ("This is an off-lister you schmuck! Hey my taxes pay your salary!")
If you treat them like you want to be treated, they might be able to use a little discretion and let you go home. A good attitude could prevent your butt from being locked up until the DA/judge/jury decides that wasn't really a pistol grip after all.

artherd
03-26-2006, 2:08 AM
THAT'S WHAT I"VE BEEN TELLING MOST CIVIES!!! Go get your lowers!!! :) and yes,,,,most of my fellow LEO's DO NOT CARE ABOUT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS OWNING WEAPONS. We care about the bad guys that use weapons in commission of crimes. If you don't fall into that category, you shouldn't fret......but do your part in educating those (LEO's) that aren't familiar with the firearm laws.

I had a good ~30min conversation with a SD who wasn't quite sure about AB50 as ennacted, SB23 as ennacted, and the Kalser decision, etc. (this was back in early 2005.) After the encounter I am confident that at least one SD, and hopefully his buddies too, had a better understanding of all the AW laws.

PS: you're a 'civie' too :)

jvc707
03-26-2006, 9:38 AM
There are quite a few members of the law enforcement community who are clueless when it comes to firearms (and the regulations, too) and are only armed because they have to be.

Not bashing on cops or anything, just pointing that out.

You are only too correct. I cringe when I think about some of the people I work with.

Pthfndr
03-26-2006, 5:45 PM
Why would the DOJ send out a memo about unlisted lowers? At this time they're just another long rifle as far as the law is concerned.

bballin21
03-31-2006, 5:19 PM
Well i am a LEO in southern california and am aware of the new offlist receivers. Most of my LEO friends are trying to buy up as many lowers as possible. I already have my lower and upper kit but haven't put anything together yet. i heard the DOJ loves to bust LEO's. I only know about the off-list lowers from one of my gun nut friends. No messages or memo's from the DOJ have been handed out to us official.

I think i'm just going to lay low and see what happens.

shopkeep
03-31-2006, 6:11 PM
i heard the DOJ loves to bust LEO's. I think i'm just going to lay low and see what happens.

Back in 2000 right after the ban the DOJ set out to make a few Assault Weapons arrests. Rumor has it there were 5 arressts and all 5 were LEOs. Don't know if any of the charges stuck, these were LEOs who weren't even aware that they were breaking the law. I know this later lead to a second reg period for LEOs.

avidone
03-31-2006, 6:31 PM
I heard the DOJ loves to bust LEO's.

I'll bet they do!

You would think they would say "Hey, were all on the same side here, and this is obviously an oversight, so as long as you surrender this immediately, we will just let this stay between us", but busting officers from another law enforcement agency really appears (on paper) to justify all of the staff and money that pours into the DOJ. Even if charges are not justified, the initial headlines are seldom followed by retractions of equal vigor. I'm sure you already know what the headlines would read.

bballin21
03-31-2006, 6:42 PM
yeah its amazing what people will do to try and make themselves look good. Its pretty sad if you ask me.

centermass
03-31-2006, 10:40 PM
One of my best friends is a high ranking officer of one of the largest P.D.'s in Orange County. He hadn't heard about this lower thing at all. Once I told him, he immediately picked up the phone, made a few calls and the next day he was down DROS'ing a few Lauers. He was all excited. And he already has an original Colt AR-15 that he registered as an AW the last time around.

Pablo
04-01-2006, 1:59 AM
Well i am a LEO in southern california and am aware of the new offlist receivers. Most of my LEO friends are trying to buy up as many lowers as possible. I already have my lower and upper kit but haven't put anything together yet. i heard the DOJ loves to bust LEO's. I only know about the off-list lowers from one of my gun nut friends. No messages or memo's from the DOJ have been handed out to us official.

I think i'm just going to lay low and see what happens.

Funny how not only regular folks are scare about the DOJ tactics but also LEOs.

stator
04-01-2006, 6:35 AM
Earlier this week I dropped by my Brother-in-law's house to pick up some CDs. He's a police officer so I asked him if they got a memo from the DOJ about the offlist lowers. He answered "no". I explained the situation to him and asked if he was aware of it. Again, he said "no".

So throughout the week I decided to repeat this experiment. I asked various Law Enforcement officers I know who work around my business. They also said they had recieved no memo and were completely unaware of the situation.

So my question is: why is the _ONLY_ memo and _ONLY_ admission of the situation located on an obscure section of a division of the CA DOJ?

The answer to your question lies in the fact that government is a monoploy. It has no competition and thus no need to be effecient. Often times, our government's ineffeciences tend to be misconstrued as conspiracies.