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DigglerD
03-23-2006, 5:11 PM
Ok, I know this has beens said over and over again but I haven't seen any resolution for the other guys in the same boat.

EVERY FFL I have spoken to about recieving an off list lower has said "I'm not doing that anymore" or "can't, not no more" or "I would rather not touch those".

How... please tell me how do I get a legal lower in the Bay Area because NOBODY is willing to run the transfer. The only place that will "sell" not transfer, is the SJ Gun Exchange and I think $300 for a lower is just flat out unfair.

I know some of you in this valley have gotten them, are you the guys that got one before the DOJ decided to threaten all the local FFLs? Is there any FFL on this board that will still run these transfers?

DigglerD
03-23-2006, 5:25 PM
Excellent question. I concurr. After reading all the posts here, I'm a BWeise convert. I'm looking for one in Northern California. I am willing to drive a bit to find one.

I have now missed three by less than a week. They will do it one day and then not the next. This really stinks!

kantstudien
03-23-2006, 5:48 PM
The only place that will "sell" not transfer, is the SJ Gun Exchange and I think $300 for a lower is just flat out unfair

You've created your own dilemma. You stated that no FFL wants the trouble of transferring these in, but you are not willing to pay the ones that do. Don't know what to tell ya, except for do more research.

bwiese
03-23-2006, 5:49 PM
Well, what's your time worth - travelling around, scrounging around to save a few bucks?

You either want one or you don't. That's all there is to it. It's a marketplace, not a welfare state.

Almaden Gun Exchg has them in SJ for low $200s plus DROS fees. And they deserve to get what they get, because they're carrying these as standard stocked items. Means when the DOJ audits them they waste lotsa time going thru little niggling details in paperwork. Other dealers don't want that.

Also you can try to scrounge around for a group buy here too on Calguns.

I want a $1000 Rolex and $10,000 Cadillac, too, but I know they aren't around at that price and it's not worth wasting time to scrounge for them at that price.

I notice that now all the cheapskates are on board!

In a few days/weeks or maybe a month or so, when things kick in at DOJ, you'll see folks willing to pay $750 per lower when the hammer falls.

If you can't afford that price, you've got bigger problems than getting a lower. Work extra hours, take a side job or stop doing $3 Starbucks lattes.

6172crew
03-23-2006, 6:04 PM
LOL @ Bill:D

San Jose has a store front and lawyers to pay for, thanks for supporting them/:rolleyes:

I will get you in touch w/ a FFL but he will charge you a $100 plus dros to transfer and he has weird hours and when you want to pick up he wont be there for a few days.

DigglerD
03-23-2006, 6:20 PM
You've created your own dilemma. You stated that no FFL wants the trouble of transferring these in, but you are not willing to pay the ones that do. Don't know what to tell ya, except for do more research.

That's why I'm confused... trouble? how is it more trouble than transferring a standard piece? I bought my Kimber, Glock, and Remmy all local and for a mark-up that was way more than if I were to simply mail-order to a back street FFL. I didn't mail order because I like to support the local shops... in this case they are not supporting me.

Well, what's your time worth - travelling around, scrounging around to save a few bucks?

You either want one or you don't. That's all there is to it. It's a marketplace, not a welfare state.

Almaden Gun Exchg has them in SJ for low $200s plus DROS fees. And they deserve to get what they get, because they're carrying these as standard stocked items. Means when the DOJ audits them they waste lotsa time going thru little niggling details in paperwork. Other dealers don't want that.

Also you can try to scrounge around for a group buy here too on Calguns.

I want a $1000 Rolex and $10,000 Cadillac, too, but I know they aren't around at that price and it's not worth wasting time to scrounge for them at that price.

I notice that now all the cheapskates are on board!


I want a $1000 and a $10,000 Cadillac too, however I am willing to pay $10,000 for that Rolex and $50,000 for that Cadillac NOT $40,000 and $300,000. See the distinction I'm making?

Not a cheapskate and not here to flame either... Fact of the matter is this

These are legal but still merit a higher price mark-up than any other piece out there when the lowers are available and suppliers are willing to ship in more than abundant numbers.

If there is DOJ extortion going on and these shops are forced to pay legal fees to stay open then sure but from asking around, this doesn't seem to be the case. Some shops say naw that's not my bag and the one shop that does had them for $300 (if it's $200 now, that's much better) but they still won't accept a non-local FFL transfer. (I want a different brand than they carry).


If you can't afford that price, you've got bigger problems than getting a lower. Work extra hours, take a side job or stop doing $3 Starbucks lattes.
My problem is I'm too impulsive... I went to find out about lowers and cash out a consignment and ended up spending another $700... I hate guns, they make me spend money.

DigglerD
03-23-2006, 6:21 PM
LOL @ Bill:D

San Jose has a store front and lawyers to pay for, thanks for supporting them/:rolleyes:

I will get you in touch w/ a FFL but he will charge you a $100 plus dros to transfer and he has weird hours and when you want to pick up he wont be there for a few days.

I guess I just miss the days when FFL's where there to get you a gun and not just to make a buck. In most commodities, I have buying options, in guns you have to go to the FFL... more are realizing that and charging.

6172crew
03-23-2006, 6:23 PM
The DOJ has threatened Vendors, FFLs, and Manufatures with law suits.

If you were a FFL and it was how you fed your family would you do it for $10? :confused:

Would you do it at all?

Would you do it for buddies or would you put your name out there for eveyone to see and try to make as much $$ as you can while the gettin was good?

What would you do?

DigglerD
03-23-2006, 6:27 PM
The DOJ has threatened Vendors, FFLs, and Manufatures with law suits.


That's the mising link... my understanding is that if something is legal and you have a legally run establishment... then no legal hassles.

If there is extortion going on, that's another can of beans and I thank the one store for having the balls to carry them.

kenc9
03-23-2006, 6:28 PM
Drive to Paso Robles 35.00 total no problem.

-ken

Mr331
03-23-2006, 6:33 PM
Diggler, do the work. The "normal" prices are out there. I figured I have saved myself $430 to this point.

shopkeep
03-23-2006, 6:35 PM
OK first off I'm sick and tired of people pointing fingers at the San Jose Gun Exchange, CWS, and other FFLs saying, "So and so online is offering these for $99 and this place is selling them for $300!!!"

If you're going to blame someone BLAME OUT OF STATE FFLs.

Out of state FFLs are the ones who control the supply. Yeah sure the factory will sell for $99 but they aren't going to sell to anyone in California for $99. Hence you need a middleman, the out of state FFL. Out of state FFLs aren't dumb, they KNOW this is a market that's ON FIRE!

San Jose Gun Exchange, CWS, and many others are making VERY LITTLE off selling these lowers. The FFLs are being gouged by out of state FFLs and harrassed constantly by DOJ agents. The DOJ has used the Milpitas FFL as a clear example of what they intend to do to any FFL that violates even a minor code.

I know I don't speak for all the FFLs out there, but many are doing this to stick it to the man. Let's face it, they make a TON more off just selling a handgun that's on the approved list or some accessories that are legal than they do for selling an off-list lower.

Stores like CWS and San Jose Gun Exchange stepped up to the plate and joined the rebellion. They are risking their business, their personal wealth, and their freedom for us to have these lower recievers. When the dust clears and the registration period opens we owe them BIG TIME. I suggest we begin discussing how we're going to thank these daring FFLs for making this all happen rather than whinning about a few extra dollars we have to spend that some guy in Alabama won't have to.

DigglerD
03-23-2006, 6:36 PM
Diggler, do the work. The "normal" prices are out there. I figured I have saved myself $430 to this point.

I hear ya, I have been calling non-stop for the last two weeks and then found this place. I figured there are so many here that have them and I could simplify the search a bit...

I am working a little group buy at work and think I may have run into some deals in PM... always trying to do one better tho.

6172crew
03-23-2006, 6:36 PM
Lets look at it this way, the FFL transfering these out of his home has a good chance of loosing FFL next year unless he puts bars on windows gets a security system that he can afford on $10 transfer fees.

FFL dont make much, that much Ive learned. They all provide a service and if I was a FFL I wouldnt transfer them unless I knew you. Id hate to have guys coming over to my house at all hours for a whopping $10 bucks.

The stickys up top of the legal section are there to help guys get lowers, but not get lowers cheap. They are legit business owners taking a chance and getting paid to do it. Heres the best part, if you transfer 2 lowers w/ FFL and ask him if you can add one from out of state without calling him a crook you might get what you need.;)

That's the mising link... my understanding is that if something is legal and you have a legally run establishment... then no legal hassles.

If there is extortion going on, that's another can of beans and I thank the one store for having the balls to carry them.

kenc9
03-23-2006, 6:52 PM
Dealers get them for a 100.00 bucks like Gun Exchange then charge 289.00.
They are rapers, don't give me thay are helping us, thats a bunch of BS!

They have the right to charge what ever they want.
As far as they are going broke or something? BS...

Don't blame anyone, just get them at a fair price and that isn't at Gun xchange.

-ken

MOD EDIT: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30802 -- Do not use these discussions to advertise your items for sell.

bwiese
03-23-2006, 6:55 PM
That's why I'm confused... trouble? how is it more trouble than transferring a standard piece?

DOJ audits of FFLs selling lowers in bulk are quite intensive and have a 'raid'-like quality.


These are legal but still merit a higher price mark-up than any other piece out there when the lowers are available and suppliers are willing to ship in more than abundant numbers.

Some suppliers will, but most do not. Most suppliers are not mfgrs (except Lauer) but out of state intermediating FFL dealers who do their own markup.


If there is DOJ extortion going on and these shops are forced to pay legal fees to stay open then sure but from asking around, this doesn't seem to be the case.

It's not necessarily that, but one bulk vendor in SoCal had 2 'audits' ('raids' w/5-7 man DOJ teams) over a 2-3 week period. FFLs dealing in off-list lowers can expect added attention. Little shops that don't want the trouble for not much profit just stay away. Some may fear some of their paperwork keeping, etc may not stand up to a "dotted-i, crossed-t" analysis. The FFL in Milpitas that was moving hundreds of lowers got audited and closed down temporarily because he didn't have the right amount of cubic feet of space in his safe; his inventory of lowers is still in limbo at DOJ offices.

Some shops say naw that's not my bag and the one shop that does had them for $300 (if it's $200 now, that's much better) but they still won't accept a non-local FFL transfer. (I want a different brand than they carry).


Almaden Gun Exchange sells a product in inventory, so they're obviously not gonna want you to undercut their basis - the transfer will expose them to same time, trouble, DOJ hassle, for less money.

Prices vary with rarity of some lowers. Some are just more expensive, dunno why. You should be able to get one there for low $200s + DROS.

Why do you expect people to do work for no money? I need my downstairs bathroom painted, come over tonight and I'll pay you $20 and a beer. No drips, mind you.

And why o why are you being picky about brand? Starving Ethiopians don't complain about the seasoning when you give them a steak. You should grab whatever lowers you can, when you can - they're all the same (except Vulcan) and all will build 100% reliable accurate rifles.

icormba
03-23-2006, 7:09 PM
Spending $200-300 for something that costs less than $50 to make?
Spending $200-300 for something that other people in other States can get for ~$90?

That's just plain stupid on our parts! that's like buying a $120k home for $600k!! Oh wait a minute! we ARE doing that!! and I am just as STUPID!!! ;) haha!!

EBWhite
03-23-2006, 7:11 PM
Here is the point, who cares?

If they want to sell them for 289, dont buy them...get them from the various out of state places, drive, and pay the 75 buck transfer fees

Jeff Rambo
03-23-2006, 7:24 PM
Regardless of how "legal" these lowers are right now, the FFLs who stepped up to the plate between December and early March did so at a risk to their business and financial standing. Thus the 100-110% mark-ups were fairly reasonable. Such requirements are slowly beginning to fade away, but that is no reason to claim price gouging to those who stepped up to the plate early in this ordeal.

The out of state dealers that are shipping in at $99/per right now were few and far between three months ago. Now that others have paved the way for them, they are slowly beginning to show their faces. But what few people are failing to realize is that while you are getting these lowers in at $99 and putting down the in-state FFLs that were stepping up to the plate months ago, you're paying the same prices once you add in shipping costs, dealer fees, and DROS fees. The prices paid at CWS included all of this.

It is the same as me saying "I have this land I am selling, it's $10,000 w/ fees included!" versus someone else saying "I have the same type of land Jeff is selling, but I'm charging $1 for it and $9,999 in fees."

Don't believe me? I was fortunate enough to get Stags for myself and others last month at $100 each. But as I said... after shipping costs, transfer fees and DROS... they were right back up there at around $200/ea. The same price I paid at CWS for an Ameetec. Think about that before you put the others down.

bg
03-23-2006, 7:24 PM
One of these days this stuff will be illegal to get at any
price, then that extra scratch for a lower will REALLY look
like a killer deal after all.

Just a matter of time. When the Gold Rush hit back in 49,
steaks were going for 15.00 to 50.00 a plate, shovels for
25.00 etc..I just think its great and though I don't have
a lower myself, want to thank those you figured this
judgment out, got it on the air, and preceded to make
everyones day a little happier, except the DOJ's.

And thanks to those FFL's who took a chance and sold
the lowers in the early days. Took some rocks to start it
going.
bg

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 7:44 PM
I work at the Gun Exchange... let me chime in.

First, you can surf around everywhere and look at dealer prices. Those are prices we pay before shipping. To be a dealer, we pay $5000+ in rent, over $1500 in utilities, plus employee wages, and on top of that Insurance and licensing fees. People AND bills do need to get paid. Many of these 'group buys' and receiver transactions are being done by people who work out of their homes and have no overhead... overhead to them is if they're going to order Tony & Albas instead of Pizza Hut.

If you want a lower for $100 you can complain all you want about the free states or kitchen table gun dealers doing group buys. I don't mean to sound demeaning, I'll get to my point in a bit, as one of these kitchen table gun dealers is a close, personal friend of mine, and CWS is a great company that I even bought from personally. If you don't like our prices or policy, please feel free to patronize them. Out of all the new dealer ads popping up here, Contra Costa is a friend, and CWS has always been at our local show. These new guys offering $100 a receiver to you don't face the possible legal challenges and DOJ harassment, so it's easy for them to take your money and pass the proverbial buck of responsibility to someone here, in state, who should be getting that profit.

If you buy a receiver from us, you WILL get one. Guaranteed. If you DROS, you will pick it up. If the DOJ comes for a visit and, even for the sake of argument, that your receiver(s) were confiscated, you would still get your product OR YOUR MONEY BACK. We're a licensed retail store that is open for business 7 days a week. No need to schedule an appointment to DROS a receiver, no appointment necessary to pick it up.

Let me further state, none of this thread, our pricing, or your insults bother me. We are not a non-profit organization, nor is our sole purpose to give you the receiver you want at whatever price you think you should pay. If you're worried about saving a few dollars at the cost of convienience, please go to CWS, Milpitas, Fremont, Concord, Martinez, or whevever. I have never hid the fact, nor have I tried to steer anyone away from those efforts. As a matter of fact I fully support them.

We're in this game for the long run. We were charging $225 and $249 for a product that Reeds was selling for $300. If you need help putting a LPK in, or if you want suggestions, support, or to just ask frivolous questions all day we're there for the abuse, we even send in Factory Warranty products at our own cost. If you buy a used firearm from us, you get 1 year parts and labor guaranteed. You can even have 3 months lay-a-way to pay for items if you wish. We don't hurry you, and even if you're late, we'll work with you.

It's really difficult comparing us to a group buy dealer, as we offer so much more at normal business hours. I won't even try to pretend. Yes, our prices are higher than most, but we're not hidden on some residential home back-street, we're in the full limelight. Personally, if it were my store, the prices would have come down a little in the past month. I've argued it a number of times. Personally, I've invested a LOT of time and effort that I never got paid for, but making sure that I've answered peoples' questions here, as well as made sure that we had either receivers in stock or on the truck is no less a nightmare than you can probably imagine.

Anyways, hate the store, like the store... it's all fine and dandy. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, and we definitely try, but usually fail to cater to the Wal-mart crowd. But, when the hammer comes down, it will come down hard. I imagine when DOJ comes, we'll probably be closed down for a week or two while they sort through 20+ years worth of transactions, just looking for a few instances of misspelling, incorrectly filled out forms, paperwork, or whatever the DOJ likes to do when they harass legitimate gun dealers. Yes, that's none of your business or worries, and I wouldn't expect most of you to care if we were forced to shut our doors for whatever reason. Like I said before, we're not a home-based dealership who can decide at any time they've had enough, we'll be here until we can be, or until the doors are prematurely shut off for us.

I also know that we can be *******s and *****s at times... we don't honestly mean it, and if you stick around you'll usually see it's all fun and games. Anyways, don't know what more to say, so I'll just end it now.

Enjoy your receivers, we appreciate your business, and we're still ordering fun stuff for ourselves as much as for you.

~mike (little mike, other mike, or whatever you want to call me.... no relation to the owner Big Mike. lol)

dwtt
03-23-2006, 7:55 PM
Dealers get them for a 100.00 bucks like Gun Exchange then charge 289.00.
They are rapers, don't give me thay are helping us, thats a bunch of BS!

They have the right to charge what ever they want.
As far as they are going broke or something? BS...

Don't blame anyone, just get them at a fair price and that isn't at Gun xchange.

-ken
Do you have a FFL and can get lower receivers for $100?
The $100 price is from the factory to the dealer. No factory is selling directly to a CA dealer. If you have a FFL and are getting lowers for $100, then you can avoid being one of the rapers and offer them to us for $120. Just let us know where your shop is.

kenc9
03-23-2006, 8:24 PM
Here is the point, who cares?

If they want to sell them for 289, dont buy them...get them from the various out of state places, drive, and pay the 75 buck transfer fees

Thays exactly right don't buy them!
Just know that they are not doubling the price and making a fair price considering the market.

I paid 145.00 plus DROS for a Stag and they charge 289.00 plus the DROS.

I pay 35.00 for transfer and DROS combined.

Why anyone directs anybody to them I don't get unless they are after a buck.

Everyone should ignore these guys when it is over.

-ken

harley66
03-23-2006, 8:33 PM
I have an FFL in Turlock that is willing to do these... email me or PM

BTW,,, Modesto is OUT

icormba
03-23-2006, 8:35 PM
Do you have a FFL and can get lower receivers for $100?

Not anymore ;) But then again... my FFL didn't get/find the receivers, I DID.

The $100 price is from the factory to the dealer.
No it's not! well... not for Stags anyway. Then again, maybe that $100 is the price now?

example:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Stag_Arms_AR-15_.223_Receiver.html
(YES, I know... aim won't ship to Ca. but they are a DEALER.)

WE ARE in a sad state that WE have to pay such a HUGE mark-up. And yes it's a sad state that our dealers have to pay that same markup. I am NOT blaming the dealers here what so ever! Just like I'm not blaming the Realtors here for housing costs. Things just cost more in Ca, why should any gun be any different? A FN-HiPower selling at a local gun store was going for over $700! Brand new FN-HiPowers sell for under $500 out of state. Compare that to an AR from Gun Exchange? Your still getting a Deal off Almaden Expressway.!!

What is funny... is how we Californian's DROVE the price up on AR15 receivers over on gunbroker the 1st few weeks this whole thing started! That effected the whole U.S.! now that was funny! ;)


fyi... word has it... my FFL is getting his 01 revoked by the ATF come April. I have no details why, but I find it odd that it's happing now. :confused: :(

kenc9
03-23-2006, 8:38 PM
Mod edit: READ THE FORUM RULES. This is my 2nd warning, there will not be a third.

blacklisted
03-23-2006, 8:39 PM
Not anymore ;) But then again... my FFL didn't get/find the receivers, I DID.


No it's not! well... not for Stags anyway. Then again, maybe that $100 is the price now?

example:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Stag_Arms_AR-15_.223_Receiver.html
(YES, I know... aim won't ship to Ca. but they are a DEALER.)

WE ARE in a sad state that WE have to pay such a HUGE mark-up. And yes it's a sad state that our dealers have to pay that same markup. I am NOT blaming the dealers here what so ever! Just like I'm not blaming the Realtors here for housing costs. Things just cost more in Ca, why should any gun be any different? A FN-HiPower selling at a local gun store was going for over $700! Brand new FN-HiPowers sell for under $500 out of state. Compare that to an AR from Gun Exchange? Your still getting a Deal off Almaden Expressway.!!

What is funny... is how we Californian's DROVE the price up on AR15 receivers over on gunbroker the 1st few weeks this whole thing started! That effected the whole U.S.! now that was funny! ;)


fyi... word has it... my FFL is getting his 01 revoked by the ATF come April. I have no details why, but I find it odd that it's happing now. :confused: :(

Is your FFL a "kitchen table FFL"?

Mr331
03-23-2006, 8:39 PM
The $100 price is from the factory to the dealer. No factory is selling directly to a CA dealer.

There are more shipping direct than you think.......and at $100 a pop.

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 8:46 PM
I can just imagine what some of you would be saying if you were old enough to buy guns in Dec 1999. lol. In December of 1999 alone I paid $3000 for my FMP G3, $3000 for my Norinco NDM-86, $2500 for a BM-59, $1700 for a HK USC, $1900 for my Colt CAR-A3, $2000 for my Robinson M96 Expiditionary, etc... I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying I never complained... if a price wasn't to my liking, I just found it somewhere else... Jackson Arms, Traders, Gun Exchange (before I was an employee), Contra Costa, Modesto, etc...

Blue
03-23-2006, 8:51 PM
OK I'm gonna throw my rant in here. Gunshops have things called OVER HEAD. They have lights to keep on. There IS the middle man on these lowers. Most manufacturers WILL NOT ship to anyone in CA at this point. And I can't believe nobody has said this yet or maybe I didn't read it earlier, but we are buying these to build CA LEGAL rifles. So maybe you pay $250 for a stripped lower. ITS THE SAME PRICE OR CHEAPER THAN A VULCAN OR FAB10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only thing left over is for you to pin the mag and it costs next to nothing compared to the other parts you need to put on that stripped lower!!!!!!

blacklisted
03-23-2006, 9:00 PM
Yep, December was a crazy time.

To be brutally honest: the people who are complaining loudly about FFL and dealers in this thread are acting so much like jerks, I won't even send them a PM and recommend a FFL. That's because I like my favorite FFL, and don't want to expose him to jerks.

Look at it this way: I ordered my lowers REALLY REALLY early, namely before Christmas. People always claim that this was the time when lowers sold for that mystical $95 a piece. That's even true - except that most places actually charged around $130 for units they shipped to California. To that you have to add a few dozen $$$ for FedEx, and the FFL transfer fee, and in the end, my average cost per lower worked out to $238 a piece. That includes over $50 in phone calls on my phone card (used to try to track down lowers while I was on vacation), but does not include dozens of hours of work to try to track lowers down, then try to track a FFL down, then try to find out where my lowers were lost in transit.

Compared to that, a ready-to-go lower at the gun exchange for $2xx (I forget how much they exactly are), plus some $3x for their DROS fee, is maybe not an incredible bargain, but at least a good deal.

kenc9
03-23-2006, 9:17 PM
Removed. See Post Below.

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 9:22 PM
Read your last post before this... you were warned against advertising in a discussion thread...

Funny, you bash my store then beg for people to buy from you? Classy. lol

Jeff Rambo
03-23-2006, 9:23 PM
Ken, maybe you are not realizing I edited your previous two posts or perhaps you are just being difficult, so let me try a new approach with posting here and PMing you.

STOP LISTING ITEMS FOR SELL OR REFERRING MEMBERS TO DEALERS WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION. It is against forum rules and I have edited your previous two posts out because of it. I told you my previous warning would be the last, but on the off chance you are not catching that... this post and my PM to you is definitely my last warning.

Furthermore, at the price you are listing when the buyer adds on shipping, plus DROS, plus transfer fees... they are at or near the same price everyone else is selling for. Do you not understand this? So sell your items or advertise for your source all you want, but do not do so at the expense of bashing other retailers.

kenc9
03-23-2006, 9:35 PM
I have not been PMed nor have I been advertising anyone. I have only said that I can get these at 1/2 the price any whare.

Not trying to be difficult at all.

Listing would be a contact # web address or something.
Sure Ill point them away from pirates.

It would seem you are backing some of these dealers am I right?

In your further more statement 289.00 + Dros is alot.

I have nothing to sell what ever..nothing

I don't mean to bash..I don't...sorry..maybe I got carried away...-ken

kenc9
03-23-2006, 9:54 PM
We have been asked not to advertise dealers! Stop it!

-ken

devjunk762
03-23-2006, 10:05 PM
I work at the Gun Exchange... let me chime in.

First, you can surf around everywhere and look at dealer prices. Those are prices we pay before shipping. To be a dealer, we pay $5000+ in rent, over $1500 in utilities, plus employee wages, and on top of that Insurance and licensing fees. People AND bills do need to get paid. Many of these 'group buys' and receiver transactions are being done by people who work out of their homes and have no overhead... overhead to them is if they're going to order Tony & Albas instead of Pizza Hut.

If you want a lower for $100 you can complain all you want about the free states or kitchen table gun dealers doing group buys. I don't mean to sound demeaning, I'll get to my point in a bit, as one of these kitchen table gun dealers is a close, personal friend of mine, and CWS is a great company that I even bought from personally. If you don't like our prices or policy, please feel free to patronize them. Out of all the new dealer ads popping up here, Contra Costa is a friend, and CWS has always been at our local show. These new guys offering $100 a receiver to you don't face the possible legal challenges and DOJ harassment, so it's easy for them to take your money and pass the proverbial buck of responsibility to someone here, in state, who should be getting that profit.

If you buy a receiver from us, you WILL get one. Guaranteed. If you DROS, you will pick it up. If the DOJ comes for a visit and, even for the sake of argument, that your receiver(s) were confiscated, you would still get your product OR YOUR MONEY BACK. We're a licensed retail store that is open for business 7 days a week. No need to schedule an appointment to DROS a receiver, no appointment necessary to pick it up.

Let me further state, none of this thread, our pricing, or your insults bother me. We are not a non-profit organization, nor is our sole purpose to give you the receiver you want at whatever price you think you should pay. If you're worried about saving a few dollars at the cost of convienience, please go to CWS, Milpitas, Fremont, Concord, Martinez, or whevever. I have never hid the fact, nor have I tried to steer anyone away from those efforts. As a matter of fact I fully support them.

We're in this game for the long run. We were charging $225 and $249 for a product that Reeds was selling for $300. If you need help putting a LPK in, or if you want suggestions, support, or to just ask frivolous questions all day we're there for the abuse, we even send in Factory Warranty products at our own cost. If you buy a used firearm from us, you get 1 year parts and labor guaranteed. You can even have 3 months lay-a-way to pay for items if you wish. We don't hurry you, and even if you're late, we'll work with you.

It's really difficult comparing us to a group buy dealer, as we offer so much more at normal business hours. I won't even try to pretend. Yes, our prices are higher than most, but we're not hidden on some residential home back-street, we're in the full limelight. Personally, if it were my store, the prices would have come down a little in the past month. I've argued it a number of times. Personally, I've invested a LOT of time and effort that I never got paid for, but making sure that I've answered peoples' questions here, as well as made sure that we had either receivers in stock or on the truck is no less a nightmare than you can probably imagine.

Anyways, hate the store, like the store... it's all fine and dandy. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, and we definitely try, but usually fail to cater to the Wal-mart crowd. But, when the hammer comes down, it will come down hard. I imagine when DOJ comes, we'll probably be closed down for a week or two while they sort through 20+ years worth of transactions, just looking for a few instances of misspelling, incorrectly filled out forms, paperwork, or whatever the DOJ likes to do when they harass legitimate gun dealers. Yes, that's none of your business or worries, and I wouldn't expect most of you to care if we were forced to shut our doors for whatever reason. Like I said before, we're not a home-based dealership who can decide at any time they've had enough, we'll be here until we can be, or until the doors are prematurely shut off for us.

I also know that we can be *******s and *****s at times... we don't honestly mean it, and if you stick around you'll usually see it's all fun and games. Anyways, don't know what more to say, so I'll just end it now.

Enjoy your receivers, we appreciate your business, and we're still ordering fun stuff for ourselves as much as for you.

~mike (little mike, other mike, or whatever you want to call me.... no relation to the owner Big Mike. lol)

[Take cover folks! There's a big rant coming!!!!]
Personally, if the "lower-question" weren't happening, I'd gladly chime in and tell everyone that they're better off not buying from local dealers. Every time I go to the local gun dealer's shop in Watsonville (they shall remain nameless), I find overpriced guns, ammunition, and accesories. And, I have bargained shopped for ALL of my guns, and have found that buying from dealers on the internet and transferring through a local FFL always gives me the best price. However, at this point and time, I will shelve my normal rant and give the folks at GunExchange a big +1.

While most local gun dealers balk at even the question of transferring an AR receiver, and would probably crap their pants if you asked them about transferring an AK receiver, I found that the folks at GunExchange were:
1) Knowledgeable
2) Helpful
3) Had available stock
What more do you guys want?!?!

Four months ago, I thought that owning an AR or AK receiver was something I'd be able to enjoy in another state, *IF* I was able to beat the national ban that will likely come in the next couple of years. Yeah, we all say that we'll move to a "free" state, but how many of you are REALLY going to move on that notion? Really?! I, like most of you on this forum, am a responsible, law abiding, firearms enthusiast- I emphasize the responsible part here. We all work hard, pay taxes, and like living in CA- o.k., are guns laws are screwed, but the weather is nice. :)

Eventhough I'm a big enthusiast about my "guns", moving out of state to enjoy a wider selection involves big-time costs... much bigger than I'm willing to stomach at the moment. Think about it, moving anywhere involves alot of money (when you factor in lost wages, moving trucks, and deposits on new places...). These costs are much more expensive than having to pay 2x or 2.5x the cost of a receiver!!!

So, you can 'thump your chest' and bargain-hunt for an AR or AK receiver and bash the folks at GunX (which is fine, you're entitled), or you can simply go down there and buy a receiver. The choice is yours. They provide a simple, clear cut path for us "enthusiasts" to continue practicing the sport we love, with the hardware we love, in a legal fashion. Moreover, it's simply damned convenient if you live in the Bay Area...

And, I will also say that back in December I drove for over 4 hours to Taft to buy my first two receivers. My buddy from Sacramento met me in Los Banos, so he had like a 12 hour drive both ways to get his two receivers. I would (and he would) have much rather have driven a mere 2 hours to buy receivers in San Jose... :)

So guys, if you're serious about owning an AR "RIGHT NOW" and live in the San Jose area, head down to Gun Exchange. They'll treat you right, give you the hardware you want, and you'll beat whatever BAN the DOJ has coming down the "pipe".

DEVJUNK762

(PS- Seriously, I am in no way affiliated or profit from anything the guys at the GunX are doing. I simply admire those folks who have "balls of steel" and will do what is right. And, following this vein of thought, I also admire what Wess at 10% firearms and Artherd have done to help everyone in the "early days" of the receiver influx. My hat is off to you gentlemen...)

[Rant off! After lurking and reading for a couple of weeks, I'm done! :)]

6172crew
03-23-2006, 10:27 PM
We have been asked not to advertise dealers! Stop it!

-ken

Ken if the owner gives approval to name his company on the board then its ok per Ramon. Read the damn rules already, if you have a question about how to get the word out just start up a buy like I do and get the permission from Calguns, the FFL and the Vendor. You can man your PC, cellphone, and or home phone to help guys out.

I dont get paid to help folks find lowers, I do it because I like to and it makes the AG mad.

Thats no joke, I make nothing but have met alot of nice folks and found some interesting lowers while doing this.

QuickOnTheDraw
03-24-2006, 12:06 AM
We should all be supporting those who have and are making this possible. thanks to all those who took the risk and continue to help others out. and quit complaining about how much it costs, it's only money...you'll make more won't you!

DigglerD
03-24-2006, 12:11 AM
To be brutally honest: the people who are complaining loudly about FFL and dealers in this thread are acting so much like jerks, I won't even send them a PM and recommend a FFL. That's because I like my favorite FFL, and don't want to expose him to jerks.

Look at it this way: I ordered my lowers REALLY REALLY early, namely before Christmas. People always claim that this was the time when lowers sold for that mystical $95 a piece. That's even true - except that most places actually charged around $130 for units they shipped to California. To that you have to add a few dozen $$$ for FedEx, and the FFL transfer fee, and in the end, my average cost per lower worked out to $238 a piece. That includes over $50 in phone calls on my phone card (used to try to track down lowers while I was on vacation), but does not include dozens of hours of work to try to track lowers down, then try to track a FFL down, then try to find out where my lowers were lost in transit.

A lot of people are saying this is a hard to find price, this is simply not true. Normal FFL fees are around $35 and there is a a guy in the for sale section on this board (DDs Ranch) that has an unlimited supply for $100 and is willing to ship to CA,simple fact is we were unable to make the transaction happen because his normal FFL here won't do it anymore and he doesn't know of any others... he's in NY.

My gripe was that the FFLs simply won't do it. There are lots of reasons in this thread why. Love it of hate it, I don't have a FFL so I have to deal with it. As far as exposing your FFL to jerks, I have always wondered why non-shop FFLs always want to be so secretive or cloak and dagger, it's not like they are partaking in illegal activities.

I work at the Gun Exchange... let me chime in.

...

It's really difficult comparing us to a group buy dealer, as we offer so much more at normal business hours. I won't even try to pretend. Yes, our prices are higher than most, but we're not hidden on some residential home back-street, we're in the full limelight. Personally, if it were my store, the prices would have come down a little in the past month. I've argued it a number of times. Personally, I've invested a LOT of time and effort that I never got paid for, but making sure that I've answered peoples' questions here, as well as made sure that we had either receivers in stock or on the truck is no less a nightmare than you can probably imagine.

Anyways, hate the store, like the store... it's all fine and dandy. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, and we definitely try, but usually fail to cater to the Wal-mart crowd. But, when the hammer comes down, it will come down hard. I imagine when DOJ comes, we'll probably be closed down for a week or two while they sort through 20+ years worth of transactions, just looking for a few instances of misspelling, incorrectly filled out forms, paperwork, or whatever the DOJ likes to do when they harass legitimate gun dealers. Yes, that's none of your business or worries, and I wouldn't expect most of you to care if we were forced to shut our doors for whatever reason. Like I said before, we're not a home-based dealership who can decide at any time they've had enough, we'll be here until we can be, or until the doors are prematurely shut off for us.


I see your point. Didn't mean to be a jackass. How do I get there:)

kantstudien
03-24-2006, 12:41 AM
Normal FFL fees are around $35

You still appear to be confused, so I will help you out before someone goes ballistic on you.

The "DROS" is $25.00. That all goes to the state, the FFL makes nothing.

If you are involved in a private party transfer, the dealer will charge $10 on top of DROS, which makes it $35.00.

If you order something shipped in to you either from in state or from out of state, then the price is $25 for the DROS plus whatever fee the dealer feels is fair for him (usually between 40-65 bucks). Do you understand this now?

PPTs are not transfers, but transfers can be PPTs. Most dealers do not get involved in transfers, but they must do PPTs.

Why can't people figure this out? Is this the resulting product of the failing public school system? Is this the result of postmodernism and its rejection of objective truth? Can one only be certain of the "cogito?" Does the purchase of every unlisted lower bring a tear to Lockyer's eye?

xenophobe
03-24-2006, 12:54 AM
Treelogger, I'm humbled and couldn't help but busting up laughing at a few of your points. Thanks for being supportive.

Devjunk, nice rant! I'd buy you a beer, but I don't drink! lol

DigglerD, I wasn't specifically responding to you. We do FFL transfers for $50 per item +DROS. I'm not sure who you spoke to, but you need to come into the store, request for us to do it... you need to physically bring in a fax number or addressed envelope with your FFL's info on it so we can get a license out to them and start paperwork. I know $50 is a lot when you compare it to the price of the receiver, but that is a flat fee for any item. If you were to purchase a $1000 rifle, our fee is still $50. But keep in mind, we do not want to be a group buy transfer dealer, and for receivers, we would prefer to do it for regular customers. If one of these out of state sellers has their own FFLs lined up, please go through them, that's what they are there for.

DigglerD
03-24-2006, 12:57 AM
You still appear to be confused, so I will help you out before someone goes ballistic on you.

The "DROS" is $25.00. That all goes to the state, the FFL makes nothing.

If you are involved in a private party transfer, the dealer will charge $10 on top of DROS, which makes it $35.00.

If you order something shipped in to you either from in state or from out of state, then the price is $25 for the DROS plus whatever fee the dealer feels is fair for him (usually between 40-65 bucks). Do you understand this now?

PPTs are not transfers, but transfers can be PPTs. Most dealers do not get involved in transfers, but they must do PPTs.

Why can't people figure this out? Is this the resulting product of the failing public school system? Is this the result of postmodernism and its rejection of objective truth? Can one only be certain of the "cogito?" Does the purchase of every unlisted lower bring a tear to Lockyer's eye?

This is my first mention of prices.... I am confused as to (a) where this is coming from and (b) why it's directed at me. My understanding is this

$25 DROS + FFL fee (in many cases $35, from shops... a percentage or variable ~$100 <some dealer contrived price> flat fee).

Being this is the first time I have spoken of these fees and in the understanding I have conveyed there is no ambiguity... I guess I am lost as to what you are talking about.

Although one question I do have... in all of this, tranfers, PPT, over counter sales, where do taxes fit in? All? Some? Depends?

But keep in mind, we do not want to be a group buy transfer dealer, and for receivers, we would prefer to do it for regular customers. If one of these out of state sellers has their own FFLs lined up, please go through them, that's what they are there for.

This is understandable. I hadn't even heard of you guys until the counter at Kerlys told me to check out the SJ Gun X-change. I have bought all of my guns from Kerleys (VERY nice folk) and the Sportmens Supply (flat out dicks).

The price I got for a lower fomr you guys was $300 + DORS + tax but I must admit that this was a middleman, but he had no reason to inflate the price or lie. If this was in fact a story then I sincerley apologize for getting the facts mixed up. Bottom line, I wanted to get a few of these but it just urks me to have to pay 3x retail cost but like someone else said, we live in ca and pay $500k for condos...:eek:

Stanze
03-24-2006, 1:26 AM
I live in San Diego and had to drive to Riverside and L.A. for both of my lowers, I had no problem spending my time, gas and other exspenses for something I haven't been allowed to purchase since 2000. Time was of the essense, no one knows when these will be banned. Fortunately we've had more time than earlier anticipated. But, don't let your guard down.

There's WAY more FFL dealers willing to transfer non-listed lowers than before in Dec. 2005, make phone calls, do the legwork like most of us did.

Matter of fact, my friend who's never owned a firearm in his whole life held my CA-Legal AR-15, I gave him the gist of it and he decided that he had to have one(they basically sell themselves). I offered to send him a email of step by step instructions of what to do(call the FFL, have him fax to supplier, do the DROS etc.) if he wanted one, but don't question it, just follow the instructions in the email.

Yesterday he did what I advised him to do(not all of it, he couldn't justify buying more than one lower like I told him he'd thank me later for....heh heh BRD has not infected him yet.:p ) and now has a STAG ARMS stripped AR lower in route to CA for $99 plus shipping, the FFL in San Diego charges $45.00 plus $25.00 DROS.

Not bad for a first time gun newbie with a little help from a Calgunner! Done me proud!:)

Point is, we speak the truth...less time complaining, more time researching AND driving! Either in higher dealer mark-up or gas, you're gonna pay...unless you get lucky. If the hammer drops before your lower makes it into the CA "In-Zone", then your luck just ran out.

xenophobe
03-24-2006, 2:03 AM
The price I got for a lower fomr you guys was $300 + DORS + tax but I must admit that this was a middleman, but he had no reason to inflate the price or lie. If this was in fact a story then I sincerley apologize for getting the facts mixed up. Bottom line, I wanted to get a few of these but it just urks me to have to pay 3x retail cost but like someone else said, we live in ca and pay $500k for condos...:eek:

I don't know who told you that.... we charge $249 + Tax & DROS. That's for any receivers we happen to have in stock at the time, or the house brand High Standard (CMT) when on order. Some of them cost us a LOT more, some of them didn't, but if you compare our prices to most of the other Cali FFLs, we may be higher, but we try to keep them in stock. We are a retail store and have the extra burdens not placed with non-commerical dealers.

If we were only doing wholesale transactions direct to FFLs, all of the associated paperwork PER TRANSACTION would mostly be eliminated, with only a need to log in and out to a FFL # on file, and it would be much easier to lower our prices. Unfortunately, we must keep the shop running, and spend much more time dealing with sales and paperwork than an out of state dealer who only needs one piece of paper and a CC# to complete a sale. We also take the time to explain the laws as to what you may and may not do. Surely our job is MUCH more difficult and time consuming than any out of state guy who does not have to deal with any in-state BS.

Please keep in mind, we do not want to be and will not be a group buy transfer dealer, and for receivers, we would prefer to do it for regular customers. If one of these out of state sellers has their own FFLs lined up, please go through them, that's what they are there for.

dwtt
03-24-2006, 3:25 PM
Back in December, like Treelogger said, a lot of us were very frantic trying to locate out of state suppliers and in state FFL's who would do the transfer for us. I spent a lot of time and worry getting in some Stag lowers for myself and one other list member. Now that time has passed and things are not as frantic, but this doesn't mean the situation here in CA is like in the other states, and people should expect there will still be in state FFL's who are not willing to sell us perfectly legal rifles. Now take a big step back and look at the big picture. Who's fault is it?

CA DOJ

Remember back in December how those thugs bullied out of state suppliers and kept telling manufacturers and dealers in other states that they would be prosecuted by 58 district attorneys? Remember how Fulton had been spooked? Remember how they told any CA FFL who inquired about the legality of transferring these lowers they might be breaking the law, then did nitpicking, harassing audits of FFL's who were known publicly to transfer these receivers? Remember what the DOJ did in Milpitas? Keep the big picture in sight and you won't be complaining about the FFL's who are willing to sell these rifles.

dawson8r
03-25-2006, 2:05 PM
Just dug out my receipts. Here's the breakdown:

1/25/2006:
$370.00 - (2) DoubleStar Star-15 @ $185 each
$11.10 - 3% credit card fee
+ $8.00 - s & h
--------
$389.10
$25.00 - DROS
$45.00 - FFL txfer 1st firearm
+ $20.00 - FFL txfer additional firearm
--------
$479.10

2/1/2006:
$350.00 - (2) Ameetec WM-15 @ $175 each
$10.50 - 3% credit card fee
+ $8.00 - s & h
--------
$368.50
$25.00 - DROS
$45.00 - FFL txfer 1st firearm
+ $20.00 - FFL txfer additional firearm
--------
$458.50

3/21/2006:
$215.00 - Mega Gator
$145.00 - LAR Grizzly
$10.80 - 3% credit card fee
+ $8.00 - s & h
--------
$378.80
$25.00 - DROS
$45.00 - FFL txfer 1st firearm
+ $20.00 - FFL txfer additional firearm
--------
$468.80

Average price I paid for receivers only was $180. Average price I paid per receiver including fees and s&h was $234. All purchased from CWS (thanks PIRATE).

Online direct from manufacturer prices for stripped lower are/were $125 DS-15, $110 WM-15, $130 Mega, $128 LAR. Average price from manufacturer is $121. So I paid $59 per receiver or about 50% markup.

What did I get for my $59? Time, convenience, and low risk. I didn't have to contact FFL to send copy of license to merchant, followup call to make sure merchant received FFL, followup call to remind FFL to send copy, etc. I just FAXed my order to CWS, waited to be contacted by FFL when lowers were received, trip to FFL to do DROS, trip to FFL to pickup. This was also over 2 1/2 months and market conditions have changed.

Ironically, the lowest markup/highest markup was my most recent: the LAR Grizzly and the Mega. Of course the Mega is absolutely beautiful so I don't really care.

In summary, for the money I spent I could've picked up a really nice Kimber or a couple more Glocks with night sights. Instead, I have 6 legally purchased lowers that I can now take my time building up. I have absolutely no regrets!

tenpercentfirearms
03-25-2006, 9:38 PM
I am one of the FFLs who used to sell lowers and no longer does. You want to know the real reason why I stopped? I am tired!!! That is right, tired. All of this gun business takes up a lot of time and when you work two jobs, it gets old. So for 4 months I ran ragged trying to make all of this happen while sweating if I was going to make my investment back and when the list was going to come out and on and on and on. So I have stopped because I am tired. I need a break.

One thing I have learned about all of this is that time is valuable. The money no longer means much to me, I want some time off. So if you want a dealer to take up all of his/her time figuring this out and doing it at the expense of his/her other business, I see why he/she might decide not to. Sure it is was easy money, but as the market levels off, $20-$30 might not be worth getting audited a little heavier next time around. Of course as the more guys start to sell lowers, the odds of you getting audited are fewer, but again, who wants the hassle? When you start advertising you are selling lowers for a lower price, the phone rings off the hook. You spend all of your time doing mail order. It is a lot of work.

Just go get a lower. Quit bickering about prices and getting all crazy. Just go buy one. If you want to spend all of your time driving about the state and doing the work to get a lower cheaper, then do it. If you just want one and want to pay the higher price, then do it. Just get one. I think I have had customers who have probably spent the most time and money traveling to buy lowers and none of them ever complained. One guy drove 17 hours round trip, three times! Another guy flew down in his private plane. Many guys did 4-8 hour round trips, twice. Be thankful you might not have to do what they did and just buy a lower. If the price irks you, move out of state. This is what it is.

artherd
03-26-2006, 1:51 AM
These are legal but still merit a higher price mark-up than any other piece out there when the lowers are available and suppliers are willing to ship in more than abundant numbers.

If there is DOJ extortion going on and these shops are forced to pay legal fees to stay open then sure but from asking around, this doesn't seem to be the case.
I can assure you this is most certinly the case. Owning a gun shop is about the most legally precarious action one can undertake these days. Everything short of passing gas (and even then, not infront of minors :) is a crime, and DOJ may selectively prosecute you.

I'm not talking about 'giving you a hard time on an audit' I am talking about 7+ agents in full tac gear RAIDING you. Siezing property illegally, maybe even arresting you (under false or even real pretense). Not for the faint of heart, and my personal sympathy and $ goes out to 'em.

SJ Gun Exchange, CWS, and other vendors prices are entirely reasonable. If you don't like it, don't buy a lower. There's a reason people don't want to touch this without charging a price, and it is called reasonable attorney's fees

C.G.
03-26-2006, 3:31 AM
it is called reasonable attorney's fees

My lawyer (that fortunately I haven't seen lately,) charges $1,100 an hour, his associates that aren't worth a damn and I usually have to tell them what to do, are $450 an hour for the letterhead. Needless to say, I don't make anywhere close to that amount.
Now I would not mind so much if it were supply and demand; but it is more like the DeBeers.

In my former life, I did a study on jargon. The lawyers are probably most quilty on separating themselves by language to achieve a status. Have you run a legal document through a spell/grammer checker lately?

jdberger
03-26-2006, 10:40 AM
$1,100 an hour? C.G., have I got a deal for you!
Our top-top guys pull about 2/3s of that and our associates (who are reasonably intelligent) pull about 1/5th.

We have offices in SF, Walnut Creek, Silicon Valley, LA, OC, Boston, NYC, CT, DC, Portland, ME?, London and Tokyo. Sorry, nothing in Monterey. We're big, we're bad, and we're global.

But back to topic, echoing everyone else, don't like the prices? don't buy lowers. It's easy to vote with your wallet. I did. I stopped buying lowers when the price started to approach $300.

xenophobe
03-26-2006, 11:31 AM
As a private individual, doing the legwork, tracking down sellers who would ship me product, and buying... not including expenses of wasting time, making phone calls, getting money orders and sending payment Express or FedEx Next Day:

$265 for my Mega
$367 for my POF-USA (retail price on website $135)
$500+ (for my S&W compete lower considering how much an identical CMT Upper from Stag or wherever costs)
$515 for my LMT (when it didn't seem like we would get direct)

Not including a couple others I haven't received yet... Why did I pay this much? Because when they list, the game is pretty much over. Sure there will still be off-lists, but most of the stuff available NOW won't be when the list is made. And when they do list, these receivers will be priceless.

And if they don't list, I still would pay these prices all over again. This is California, for the first time in 5+ years we can buy these again. And, for someone who was around in 99 (and 89 for that matter), I know the value in getting whatever you want at whatever price you're willing to pay and not look back... it pays for itself in the long run.

Mark in Eureka
03-26-2006, 2:21 PM
How much would it take for you to risk your entire livelyhood and standard of living? Would you risk everything you own for $10, $20, $100? All the dealers I have talked to do not want to touch OFF LIST RECEIVERS for any amount. They see the risks as too great. Even if the made $10,000 - $100,000 from the program. The downside is too great: Prison, Business Ruin, Legal Fee's, Enforcement Agents Gone Wild, and Bankrupcy.

This includes a friend of mine who works for me. In the old days we were both FFL's (non stocking) and we transfered firearms for $10 per. How things have changed, I gave up my FFL and he will not transfer any semi without first getting approval from DOJ. The reasons are: the rules are just so complex and regulation seem to change almost daily, he is looking to retire within the next five years and he does not want to risk everything he has for no return, its his income and he will not risk it for you. In short a lot of dealers look at it as a NO WIN SITUATION.

blacklisted
03-26-2006, 4:00 PM
How much would it take for you to risk your entire livelyhood and standard of living? Would you risk everything you own for $10, $20, $100? All the dealers I have talked to do not want to touch OFF LIST RECEIVERS for any amount. They see the risks as too great. Even if the made $10,000 - $100,000 from the program. The downside is too great: Prison, Business Ruin, Legal Fee's, Enforcement Agents Gone Wild, and Bankrupcy.

This includes a friend of mine who works for me. In the old days we were both FFL's (non stocking) and we transfered firearms for $10 per. How things have changed, I gave up my FFL and he will not transfer any semi without first getting approval from DOJ. The reasons are: the rules are just so complex and regulation seem to change almost daily, he is looking to retire within the next five years and he does not want to risk everything he has for no return, its his income and he will not risk it for you. In short a lot of dealers look at it as a NO WIN SITUATION.

While I respect your friend's decision, the assault weapon regulations are not that complex. You do not have to be an attorney to understand them. However, they are far more complex than they should be. I think that some of them look like they were proofed by a third grade special education class.

Unfortunately, he has fallen right in to their trap. The more complex the laws get and the more hoops you have to jump through, the less FFLs there are. Many FFLs out there do not want to have to read and understand new laws as they come out. I believe that a majority of FFLs are like this. Nobody really wants to look through all the laws, but it has to be done. If you want to sell guns, you have to be willing to understand gun laws.

When an FFL becomes overly cautious, that are doing exactly what the gun grabbers want. If they can make the FFL's job so hard that he or she starts to fear prosecution for perfectly legal acts (nevermind civil issues), they win.

Also remember that they aren't just making it hard for the FFL, they are making it difficult for us as well. We must go through an FFL when we want to purchase most firearms. If dealers can't understand the laws that govern their own business, and they refuse to transfer perfectly legal firearms...well, that kind of ruins it for us. It's not about the money, it's about our freedom.

They don't have to ban guns, they just have to make it nearly impossible to buy them (regulating commerce). This "receiver craze" has demonstrated to me that they are pretty close to reaching this goal, at least in California.

DigglerD
03-26-2006, 4:15 PM
When an FFL becomes overly cautious, that are doing exactly what the gun grabbers want. If they can make the FFL's job so hard that he or she starts to fear prosecution for perfectly legal acts (nevermind civil issues), they win.


PERFECTLY PUT!

It also allows other FFLs (who understand the law) to ramp up the prices.

PIRATE14
03-26-2006, 7:04 PM
PERFECTLY PUT!

It also allows other FFLs (who understand the law) to ramp up the prices.

What you don't understand that with increased risk comes increased costs...
Not a lot of FFL want their entire store or inventory at risk to make $10...

Right now I have 4 lawyers........and about 5 Credit Card Merchant companies.......:mad:

But there are well over 5,000 rcvrs in CALI because of CWS and counting.........

U guys help the cause by paying a couple bucks more........

We on any given day have 100-200 rcvrs for sale in the State because U guys support the group buys and we at CWS educate the consumers and have established a decent xfer network..........U guys helped to do it...

Lets keep it going.........there is a lot of stuff going on besides a few cheap lowers..........

blacklisted
03-26-2006, 7:59 PM
You're definately one of the good guys, and I'm going to order the parts to build my rifles from you to show my support in the future.

I don't have a problem with people raising prices to counteract any risks, but not reading and understanding the law (or having GOOD lawyer(s) look at it) is unforgiveable in my opinion...I'm sure you encountered many like this while looking for dealers willing to do the transfer for you.

What you don't understand that with increased risk comes increased costs...
Not a lot of FFL want their entire store or inventory at risk to make $10...

Right now I have 4 lawyers........and about 5 Credit Card Merchant companies.......:mad:

But there are about 5,000 rcvrs in CALI because of CWS.........

U guys help the cause by paying a couple bucks more........

We on any given day have 100-200 rcvrs for sale in the State because U guys support the group buys and we at CWS educate the consumers and have established a decent xfer network..........U guys helped to do it...

Lets keep it going.........there is a lot of stuff going on besides a few cheap lowers..........

Mark in Eureka
03-26-2006, 10:45 PM
Remember we are the hard core belivers. Most stocking dealers are businessmen, not hobbiest. A business decision is a business decision. You weigh the risks and benifits, and thats it. It could be you are scared off by the DOJ on the question of Off List Receivers, or maybe you come to the conclusion that they are detrament to your on going business because of the demand, your regular customers will be forced out. Once forced out, they may never come back. Make a killing in the short term and lose everything in the long run. It all boils down to the acceptablity each dealer has to risk.

It not true that the rules are not complex. They are very complex. So complex, infact, that two counties sued the Attorney General because the local DA's could not figure out and tell their own law enforcement officers what is legal and what is not. How much time and money has two of our members spent on getting legal opinions. We owe them a great debt of gratatude for this, but remember it is because everthing is so complex we can do this.

As to law suits, they are very expensive. I just went thru one. One I knew I would win from the outset. It still took 14 months, it cost over $65,000, we never had the actual the trial (just hearings) so a lot of expenses was averted, and I won by settlement. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.

When I launched the suit it was all or nothing. Either I risked everything I owned, including my job with an outside employer, or I lost the business I had helped start and put fifteen years of my life in. It was a civil case and there was no threat of prison. It was the worst time of my life. For the first time in my life I had trouble sleeping at night. If it had not been for my wife and mother I would not have made it.

I can only guess what it would be like to be under criminal indictment. So I can not really fault a businessman who makes a decision to say not interested. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.

blacklisted
03-26-2006, 10:51 PM
Yeah, you usually lose in a lawsuit even if you win ;)

You are right about us being "hard core believers". Most dealers are indeed businessmen, but I think that they can be both good businessmen and good gun nuts :D

All dealers weigh the risks and benefits, I think that some just use a different scale.

Remember we are the hard core belivers. Most stocking dealers are businessmen, not hobbiest. A business decision is a business decision. You weigh the risks and benifits, and thats it. It could be you are scared off by the DOJ on the question of Off List Receivers, or maybe you come to the conclusion that they are detrament to your on going business because of the demand, your regular customers will be forced out. Once forced out, they may never come back. Make a killing in the short term and lose everything in the long run. It all boils down to the acceptablity each dealer has to risk.

It not true that the rules are not complex. They are very complex. So complex, infact, that two counties sued the Attorney General because the local DA's could not figure out and tell their own law enforcement officers what is legal and what is not. How much time and money has two of our members spent on getting legal opinions. We owe them a great debt of gratatude for this, but remember it is because everthing is so complex we can do this.

As to law suits, they are very expensive. I just went thru one. One I knew I would win from the outset. It still took 14 months, it cost over $65,000, we never had the actual the trial (just hearings) so a lot of expenses was averted, and I won by settlement. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.

When I launched the suit it was all or nothing. Either I risked everything I owned, including my job with an outside employer, or I lost the business I had helped start and put fifteen years of my life in. It was a civil case and there was no threat of prison. It was the worst time of my life. For the first time in my life I had trouble sleeping at night. If it had not been for my wife and mother I would not have made it.

I can only guess what it would be like to be under criminal indictment. So I can not really fault a businessman who makes a decision to say not interested. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.