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View Full Version : FFL refusing to transfer legal-lower.


antarius
03-23-2006, 10:15 AM
I've got an off-list, recently purchased, legal lower that I'm trying to (legally) transfer to a friend of mine.

The problem I'm running into is no FFL's are willing to touch the things. One even told me "I'd be glad to do it, but the DOJ told me they'd be here tomorrow if I even began touching those." (How totalitarian is that?!?)

My question is, isn't there a law on the books that states an FFL may not refuse a legal transfer?

If there is, I'm not looking to go to my local FFL's and hold this in their face, forcing them to accept the transfer; But I'd like to at least be able to know my rights regarding this issue, and the legalities of.

Thanks.

slo5oh
03-23-2006, 10:40 AM
There's a FFL in the clayton area that's got the AW license (so he can help with broken/blownup legal registered AWs) that will do a transfer. I'd give you his name and number but I don't really know him.

antarius
03-23-2006, 10:50 AM
There's a FFL in the clayton area that's got the AW license (so he can help with broken/blownup legal registered AWs) that will do a transfer. I'd give you his name and number but I don't really know him.

Appreciate it. I can always go back to the FFL that I originally purchased the lower from; But I'm trying to find the legal means to stay within my area.

Just out of principle, I don't like the idea of having to drive 2+ hours just to do a transfer of a legal firearm, because someone is "afraid of the DOJ." It's ridiculous.

I was almost positive there was a law that stated an FFL cannot refuse a legal transfer, and limited what they were allowed to charge. Anyone know?

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 10:51 AM
A dealer doesn't have to do a transfer on anything they think is illegal... So he's afraid, move on and find another dealer.

PIRATE14
03-23-2006, 10:53 AM
What are u going to try and do get a letter from the DOJ stating that he has to xfer a lower for you............

That's a good one.......:D

antarius
03-23-2006, 10:58 AM
What are u going to try and do get a letter from the DOJ stating that he has to xfer a lower for you............

That's a good one.......:D
Quit being a dick.

That's not what I'm doing at all; I just don't want to drive 2 hours to do a freaking transfer.

bwiese
03-23-2006, 10:58 AM
I've got an off-list, recently purchased, legal lower that I'm trying to (legally) transfer to a friend of mine.

Assuming you're in the bay area, you could ask if Almaden Gun Exchange in SJ will do it - I think they would, given they sell lowers :)

antarius
03-23-2006, 10:59 AM
A dealer doesn't have to do a transfer on anything they think is illegal... So he's afraid, move on and find another dealer.

I understand that a dealer doesn't have to transfer something that they feel is illegal; But that's not the case in this situation.

I've had them openly state to me that they know it's legal, that they know the whole deal with off-list lowers, but that they're afraid of the DOJ "showing up tomorrow" and as a result won't do the transfer.

Bottom line, I don't want to drive 2 hours to do the transfer. In the end I guess I'll own 2 or 3 CA-AR's. =]

xenophobe
03-23-2006, 11:01 AM
If you come in to the Gun Exchange, we'll do the Private Party Transfer, but you and the person you're transfering it to need to come in at the same time...

PIRATE14
03-23-2006, 11:02 AM
Quit being a dick.

That's not what I'm doing at all; I just don't want to drive 2 hours to do a freaking transfer.

Was I a Dick....I think not

You guys don't just get it........u won't find much sympathy w/ only a 2 hour drive.........

Maybe I am a DICK.........

antarius
03-23-2006, 11:03 AM
If you come in to the Gun Exchange, we'll do the Private Party Transfer, but you and the person you're transfering it to need to come in at the same time...
Yeah I know, but you guys are 2+ hours away =[.

I bought the lowers from you guys... and had a pleasant experience, so in the end I'll likely just direct him your way to purchase them on his own; No reason for me to go down with him... he can get his own.

bwiese
03-23-2006, 11:03 AM
I've had them openly state to me that they know it's legal, that they know the whole deal with off-list lowers, but that they're afraid of the DOJ "showing up tomorrow" and as a result won't do the transfer.

Sounds like they may have bookkeeping issues they don't want DOJ giving added attention to...

Bottom line, I don't want to drive 2 hours to do the transfer. In the end I guess I'll own 2 or 3 CA-AR's. =]

Well, either your friend and/or you are lazy. I drove to Bakersfield (Taft) to get my 1st two lowers in December. Of course retaining an extra AR lower is a perfectly happy state of affairs...

antarius
03-23-2006, 11:04 AM
Was I a Dick....I think not

You guys don't just get it........u won't find much sympathy w/ only a 2 hour drive.........

Maybe I am a DICK.........
I feel for you if you have to drive longer than 2 hours. =[

antarius
03-23-2006, 11:06 AM
Sounds like they may have bookkeeping issues they don't want DOJ giving added attention to...



Well, either your friend and/or you are lazy. I drove to Bakersfield (Taft) to get my 1st two lowers in December. Of course retaining an extra AR lower is a perfectly happy state of affairs...
You might be right on the book keeping issue there...

It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of not wanting to sit in traffic and drive 2 hours to do a transfer. I did it to purchase the lowers in the first place, and to go back down to pick them up; I'd rather not do it again.

bwiese
03-23-2006, 11:09 AM
You might be right on the book keeping issue there...


Yeah I think DOJ is using threat of hyper-detailed audits. Some of the casual good-ol'-boy stores may be a little lax in paperwork, etc. Look at the Milpitas guy - he didn't have the right cubic footage for his gunsafe.

It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of not wanting to sit in traffic and drive 2 hours to do a transfer. I did it to purchase the lowers in the first place, and to go back down to pick them up; I'd rather not do it again.

Then the cost of your 2 hours is greater than the price of the lower. So keep the lower. A 3rd AR lower may be a joyful experience in a few months if all our ducks get into a row ;)

antarius
03-23-2006, 11:10 AM
Yeah I think DOJ is using threat of hyper-detailed audits. Some of the casual good-ol'-boy stores may be a little lax in paperwork, etc. Look at the Milpitas guy - he didn't have the right cubic footage for his gunsafe.



Then the cost of your 2 hours is greater than the price of the lower. So keep the lower. A 3rd AR lower may be a joyful experience in a few months if all our ducks get into a row ;)
Yeah.. it's not like they're burning a hole in my safe or anything; I just wanted to help out a buddy and transfer one to him to save him the time of driving all the way to San Jose.

In the end it looks like I'll keep my lowers, and he'll be driving to San Jose. *shrug*

snobordr
03-23-2006, 12:34 PM
Antarius, you are right, provided the transaction is legal, no FFL may refuse a PPT and I think someone hit it right on the paperwork issue that the FFL may be concerned about. Personally, I made the drive to my FFL 6 times all told to reserve and transfer lowers, not as far as two hours, but still, time is valuable. When it came to doing the PPT transfers, I called the two FFLs I have within 15 minutes of me, neither was willing to do the transfer.

I will drive an hour for all future purchases to support the FFLs that had the cajones to step up, my business or lack of won't hurt the FFLs that refused, but I won't be putting money into their pockets in the future.

Keep the lower, it sounds like a win-win for all, your buddy has to drive to SJ regardless.

antarius
03-23-2006, 1:28 PM
Antarius, you are right, provided the transaction is legal, no FFL may refuse a PPT and I think someone hit it right on the paperwork issue that the FFL may be concerned about. Personally, I made the drive to my FFL 6 times all told to reserve and transfer lowers, not as far as two hours, but still, time is valuable. When it came to doing the PPT transfers, I called the two FFLs I have within 15 minutes of me, neither was willing to do the transfer.

I will drive an hour for all future purchases to support the FFLs that had the cajones to step up, my business or lack of won't hurt the FFLs that refused, but I won't be putting money into their pockets in the future.

Keep the lower, it sounds like a win-win for all, your buddy has to drive to SJ regardless.
Yeah, I think that's the end result. Not that I'm complaining, the more the merrier I suppose. =]

thmpr
03-23-2006, 2:05 PM
Antarius, you are right, provided the transaction is legal, no FFL may refuse a PPT and I think someone hit it right on the paperwork issue that the FFL may be concerned about. Personally, I made the drive to my FFL 6 times all told to reserve and transfer lowers, not as far as two hours, but still, time is valuable. When it came to doing the PPT transfers, I called the two FFLs I have within 15 minutes of me, neither was willing to do the transfer.

I will drive an hour for all future purchases to support the FFLs that had the cajones to step up, my business or lack of won't hurt the FFLs that refused, but I won't be putting money into their pockets in the future.

Keep the lower, it sounds like a win-win for all, your buddy has to drive to SJ regardless.


+1 on your comments! That is the reason why I pay the extra money to go through any FFL or dealer that went the extra mile. Do I enjoy spending the extra money? Hell no! But would rather see these FFL stay in business for many years to come just in case this once in a life time chance come again!

Jeff Rambo
03-23-2006, 4:49 PM
Considering that PIRATE 14 is an FFL, I don't think driving 2 hours is a problem on that end. The comment made by PIRATE 14 wasn't dickish as far as I saw it, but pretty funny. Maybe the humor was missed though.

Drifter721
03-27-2006, 6:11 AM
Antarius, you are right, provided the transaction is legal, no FFL may refuse a PPT.

Wrong. An FFL can refuse any transaction, at his own discretion.

dbol
03-27-2006, 10:29 AM
Wrong. An FFL can refuse any transaction, at his own discretion.

At least as far as private party transactions are concerned, it's actually you that is wrong.

Per the Penal Code section 12071(b)(5) and the CA Attorney General's firearm faq (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm), FFLs are required to process all private party transactions.

There is one exception to the requirement that FFLs perform all requested private party transactions - those FFLs who do not deal in handguns are not required to do private party transfers for handguns. (See Penal Code section 12082(c)).

bear308
03-27-2006, 10:44 AM
But it is to the FFL's discretion as to whether or not the transfer is legal (straw purchase and the like). I think thats what he was refering to.

Also tranfers may be refused for a number of other reasons. Say a small volume dealer has one safe and it is nearly full, he can turn down gun that he doesn't have room for. The doj told us (Firing-Line) that we didn't have to do private parties when we were "busy". I've turned down ppt for handguns that were being sold with no ten round mag, sorry but I need to do a safe handling drill and if I do it with a "high-cap" we have to confiscate it (not state law I know).

Bottom line is are you going to drop the dime to a government gestapo unit over a guy trying to stay in the bounds of what he thinks is legal. It always amazes me how mad people who have no experience on the other side of the counter get with the guys that have to deal with these screwy laws every day. end rant

50BMGBOB
03-27-2006, 12:32 PM
You didn't say where in the bay area you are but I know that Antioch Armory can help. I got my first lower from Ben but I got two more thru them.

CALI-gula
03-27-2006, 3:11 PM
Antarius, you are right, provided the transaction is legal, no FFL may refuse a PPT and I think someone hit it right on the paperwork issue that the FFL may be concerned about.

That is true on paper only but not 100% for all presentations; an FFL dealer may still refuse doing PPT transfers based on having the right to refuse doing business with anyone at any time, for any reason they see fit, if that runs against the grain of their operations, whether opinion or not.

Some dealers may try to incite you into knocking YOURSELF out of contention for getting the PPT done by them. I know of one dealer that self-admitted to this, though he has never done that to me and I have never seen them do it to anyone else - may have just been joking (have known them a long time). Beware of dealers using the following tactic:

You go into their store, take the attached bulletin (see link below), and the dealer says "Sorry, we can't do any Private Party Transfers today" then you present the bulletin and raise a fuss over it, and guess what; he refuses to do business with you because you are being belligerent in his store, especially a gun store, and disrupting his other customers, maybe even presenting yourself as potentially dangerous! "Get out of my store!". No Private Party Transfer for you today!! And your mother darns socks in hell!

On another note, let's say you answer the one "Yes" and the rest "No" on your 4473, but in the transaction, you fondly recall the brown Pork-Chop glaze and delicious margarine coated mash potatoes at San Quentin prison... or that comfortable white long-sleeved jacket those nice people at Bellevue gave you... the FFL can stop the sale right there, no matter what you write on you 4473 and DROS paperwork.

The bulletin says otherwise, and many dealers abuse the time-of-day/appointment factor, but.... there is always "no shirt, no shoes, no service". If you go into their store stinking like 2 tons of Limburger cheese, legal or not, they can still legally ask you to leave their premises; you are disrupting other customers.

If I were an FFL I would do the Private Party Transfers; I personally have never done a sale on a PPT where I did not take the money I just made and turn around and buy another gun or good amount of Ammo or accessories from that same dealer. "Money is just burning a hole in my pocketů" As a buyer, I always buy other things at that store, either on the day of purchase or at the 10 day pick-up.

Refuse to do a PPT for me, as a buyer or a seller, and it is unlikely I will make many returns to your store. "Big mistake.. HUGE!"


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

.

tcrpe
03-27-2006, 4:21 PM
[QUOTE=antarius]I've got an off-list, recently purchased, legal lower that I'm trying to (legally) transfer to a friend of mine.

The problem I'm running into is no FFL's are willing to touch the things. One even told me "I'd be glad to do it, but the DOJ told me they'd be here tomorrow if I even began touching those." (How totalitarian is that?!?)

QUOTE]


How would the DOJ know that the FFL had transferred an off-list lower?

Of course, it is a free country . . . so he should be able to refuse service to anybody.

SFV_Dealer
03-27-2006, 7:51 PM
As a dealer, I transfer lowers for PPT as a courtesy. I don't get rich on $10 for my time and my employees but I do it as a courtesy. Actually Federal laws state that I can refuse a transaction based on my "gut instinct". CA laws have nothing that can supersede Federal laws...

As a matter of fact, I actually refused a lower sale last week because I felt an entrapment coming on - maybe I was right, or wrong, but at least I can sleep at night! You need to think about the past 15 years in the gun business - but most people out there don't have a clue since this once in a lifetime event will be all that they remember and forget the dealers who have stuck it out, putting up with inspections, license, fees, permits, etc... Something no one ever thinks about - the future of gun dealers in California....

highspeed11
03-27-2006, 8:08 PM
The biggest problem here may be that most store workers/owners are *******s. Every store I go into to has the "take it or leave it attitude". I'm assuming because the laws allow them to. What else are you, as a customer wanting a highly regulated product, going to do? You only have so many options in the good ol' boy network. Since the law states you must use an FFL, you're screwed and they know it. They can make their money whether they have your business or not. It's not like you're buying shoes and can take your business elsewhere.

Then again, I'm sure the eye of the DOJ leaves 'em weary. I know I wouldn't want to be in the gun business. One wrong move and... However, my feeling is that the dealers that won't do transfers PPT or otherwise, are playing into the DOJ's hands and are no better than they are.

bear308
03-27-2006, 8:18 PM
The biggest problem here may be that most store workers/owners are *******s. Every store I go into to has the "take it or leave it attitude". I'm assuming because the laws allow them to. What else are you, as a customer wanting a highly regulated product, going to do? You only have so many options in the good ol' boy network. Since the law states you must use an FFL, you're screwed and they know it. They can make their money whether they have your business or not. It's not like you're buying shoes and can take your business elsewhere.

Then again, I'm sure the eye of the DOJ leaves 'em weary. I know I wouldn't want to be in the gun business. One wrong move and... However, my feeling is that the dealers that won't do transfers PPT or otherwise, are playing into the DOJ's hands and are no better than they are.

After years of getting yelled at simply for following the laws of the Government you can't really blame gun shop worker/owners for getting a little short with people.

Nick5811
03-27-2006, 9:38 PM
Originally Posted by highspeed11
The biggest problem here may be that most store workers/owners are *******s. Every store I go into to has the "take it or leave it attitude"

(I agree btw, except the folks at the Gun Exchange...they are kewl. okay..back on topic)
:D
HEHEHEHEHEHE....

Big 5 does PPT's.

HAHAHAAHHAHA

Good luck with that...Let us know how it goes!;)

artherd
03-27-2006, 10:21 PM
I feel for you if you have to drive longer than 2 hours. =[

I was prepared to drive TEN hours when this all started (and that was after I got my first lower!)

I drove 3+ hours EACH WAY for THREE WEEKS helping people realize their dream of owning a CA legal lower, with gas and my time, et al. at my own expense.

Frankly I'm teling people these days that if it's not worth the drive, it's not worth your owning it.

bwiese
03-27-2006, 11:10 PM
I drove 3+ hours EACH WAY for THREE WEEKS helping people realize their dream of owning a CA legal lower, with gas and my time, et al. at my own expense.

Frankly I'm teling people these days that if it's not worth the drive, it's not worth your owning it.

Yeah, know whatcha mean.

If journey's that grueling, turn it into a little mini roadtrip, take the wife/GF shopping, go out to dinner, etc.

I made certain my return trip from Taft included a stop at Harris Ranch, which made it even more worthwhile...

Mark in Eureka
03-28-2006, 1:28 AM
Most stocking dealers are businessmen, not hobbiest. A business decision is a business decision. You weigh the risks and benifits, and thats it. It could be you are scared off by the DOJ on the question of Off List Receivers, or maybe you come to the conclusion that they are detrament to your on going business because of the demand, your regular customers will be forced out. Once forced out, they may never come back. Make a killing in the short term and lose everything in the long run. It all boils down to the acceptablity each dealer has to risk.

It not true that the rules are not complex. They are very complex. So complex, infact, that two counties sued the Attorney General because the local DA's could not figure out and tell their own law enforcement officers what is legal and what is not. How much time and money has two of our members spent on getting legal opinions. We owe them a great debt of gratatude for this, but remember it is because everthing is so complex we can do this.

As to law suits, they are very expensive. I just went thru one. One I knew I would win from the outset. It still took 14 months, it cost over $65,000, we never had the actual the trial (just hearings) so a lot of expenses was averted, and I won by settlement. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.

When I launched the suit it was all or nothing. Either I risked everything I owned, including my job with an outside employer, or I lost the business I had helped start and put fifteen years of my life in. It was a civil case and there was no threat of prison. It was the worst time of my life. For the first time in my life I had trouble sleeping at night. If it had not been for my wife and mother I would not have made it.

I can only guess what it would be like to be under criminal indictment. So I can not really fault a businessman who makes a decision to say not interested. DID I TELL YOU IT COST ME OVER $65,000.