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View Full Version : Selling Completed Off-list Rifles


shopkeep
03-20-2006, 1:26 PM
Is it lawful to sell a completed, fully operational off-list rifle? Would the DOJ go nuts and go ballistic on someone who offered one for sale (i.e. immediately make an offer over the forum and hunt them down for prosecution)? How much would an off-list rifle fetch on the open market?

Please note that this DOES NOT mean I intend to sell an off-list rifle, I am simply seeing what the opinion is out there. There is still a large number of people who continue to post that they're buying the Bushmaster CARBON-15 or other welded mag rifles so that they can buy a complete rifle. MANY people want an AR Type rifle but are too afraid to try building one.

ldivinag
03-20-2006, 1:28 PM
how's that differ from selling, say, a keltec SU16?

thmpr
03-20-2006, 1:30 PM
It is perfectly legal to purchase/sale a complete offlist rifle since it does not meet any AW category thus it is not an AW. So what penal code will they charge you?

shopkeep
03-20-2006, 1:34 PM
It is perfectly legal to purchase/sale a complete offlist rifle since it does not meet any AW category thus it is not an AW. So what penal code will they charge you?

I was more concerned about the whole 58 DAs thing and inadvertantly becomming a test case for the legality of the sporting conversions fixed mag mod.

ldivinag
03-20-2006, 1:40 PM
I was more concerned about the whole 58 DAs thing and inadvertantly becomming a test case for the legality of the sporting conversions fixed mag mod.


then you should be concerned about yourself owning one of these...

man, that DOJ and the "58 DAs" line has gotten a bunch of people worried...

granted, no one wants to be the test case, but i guess someone's has to put their foot down and SHUT UP OR PUT UP....

thmpr
03-20-2006, 1:41 PM
I was more concerned about the whole 58 DAs thing and inadvertantly becomming a test case for the legality of the sporting conversions fixed mag mod.


The fixed mag has been discussed to death and I understand your concerns about being a test case. And I agree with you on this one. But I have been to the Metcalf range with no issues. What is ironic about all of this is that the range is ran by the Sheriff's department. I had no negative encounters except a few glance by the ranger control and a smile....:D I do bring my legal ammo with me each time I go for the just in case scenario!

Jeff Rambo
03-20-2006, 2:19 PM
CWS is selling complete STAG rifles. They simply ship the lower to an FFL and the upper/buttstock etc. to you.

sac7000
03-20-2006, 2:22 PM
We all have urges to sell a weapon or two once in a while. Go out for pizza or a movie and let the feeling pass. You will feel much better in the morning.

" This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine "

hawk1
03-20-2006, 2:44 PM
It's ok to loosen the tin foil a bit...:p

xenophobe
03-20-2006, 2:47 PM
Completely legal.

No different than selling a completely built FAB-10.

We will build your AR receiver into a full California compliant rifle. No biggie.

wayoutwest
03-20-2006, 5:54 PM
I wouldnt see selling it being a big deal, but I do see finding the dealer to transfer it being the problem outside of the regular off-list dealers. Even complete and fixed mag, most will say its illegal

I dont see Big5 doing the transfer, I have had enough trouble trying to transfer an SKS with them

PanzerAce
03-20-2006, 5:58 PM
Completely legal.

No different than selling a completely built FAB-10.

We will build your AR receiver into a full California compliant rifle. No biggie.

how about AKs?

shopkeep
03-20-2006, 6:16 PM
how about AKs?

+1 on that one!

How much are off-list rifles worth anyhow?

1911_Mitch
03-20-2006, 7:01 PM
About as much as someone is willing to buy it for, and depending upon the specific build.

What it cost to build one up:

100 dollar lower (85 if you were early in the game, 200 if you were in the middle, and now, about 100 as prices are stabilizing)
75 DROS and FFL fees
65 dollar lower parts kit
65 dollar stock
450 dollar upper

basic model total about $750 - 850

koiloco
03-20-2006, 8:24 PM
Try $3000 ;) without sight. Ouch.

I'll pay $750 to buy a complete one anytime. Great deal!

:D

markymark
03-20-2006, 9:13 PM
i'd buy a completed ca-legal AK :D

olegk
03-20-2006, 9:31 PM
i'd buy a completed ca-legal AK :D
AK :
1. Receiver $100
2. Parts kit with FCG $130
3. US made mag $10
Total $270

What would you pay for assembly?

markymark
03-20-2006, 9:36 PM
AK :
1. Receiver $100
2. Parts kit with FCG $130
3. US made mag $10
Total $270

What would you pay for assembly?
Depends on how well it was put together. What would you say is a fair price?

PanzerAce
03-20-2006, 10:04 PM
AK :
1. Receiver $100
2. Parts kit with FCG $130
3. US made mag $10
Total $270

What would you pay for assembly?

depends on how fast it was put together, and how high quality the work was. Since I dont know how long it takes on average, I could not say for sure how much I would pay.

olegk
03-20-2006, 10:04 PM
Depends on how well it was put together. What would you say is a fair price?

My first build took about two weekends. Wood work took me 12 hours. For metal work (without barrel removal) I would estimate 6-8 hours. Fair price for not licensed gunsmith should be around $150.
I am making much more per hour on my fulltime/side jobs and no way I would do it for money. Process is really breathtaking. I would suggest to do it yourself just for sake of education.

markymark
03-20-2006, 10:13 PM
My first build took about two weekends. Wood work took me 12 hours. For metal work (without barrel removal) I sould estimate 6-8 hours. Fair price for not licensed gunsmith should be around $150.
I am making much more per hour on my fulltime/side jobs and no way I would do it for money. Process is really breathtaking. I would suggest to do it yourself just for sake of education.
I am interested in obtaining an offlist AK but I'm not really interested in putting in all the work because (1) I don't have easy access to the needed tools and equipment, and (2) I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. If the assembly was done well and done correctly, I would have no problem paying $150 for the labor.

olegk
03-20-2006, 10:14 PM
The build can be handled by average person for sure. If I did it everyone can do it. In beginning I was kind of shaky.
Finally I said "hell with it" and start doing this.
By the way I red horrible stores about breaking drill bits during trunion drill.
I took one regular drill and drilled 3 kits without single problem. It depends how careful and detail oriented you are.

olegk
03-20-2006, 10:18 PM
I am interested in obtaining an offlist AK but I'm not really interested in putting in all the work because (1) I don't have easy access to the needed tools and equipment, and (2) I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. If the assembly was done well and done correctly, I would have no problem paying $150 for the labor.


Man...what tools?
Grinder, drill press, wise, files.
For U-drive build you don't need even drill press. You can drill 1/4 inch into trunion without any problem. If you want to drill out rivets it is another story. Drill press is required.
But I understend that if someone suggested me to build AR with all those complications, I would pay 150 -200 for it.

EBWhite
03-20-2006, 10:21 PM
I would say most in CA would be willing to pay upwards of 5-600 bucks for a romanian pre built...possibly more for rare ones and such.

markymark
03-20-2006, 10:25 PM
Man...what tools?
Grinder, drill press, wise, files.
For U-drive build you don't need even drill press. You can drill 1/4 inch into trunion without any problem. If you want to drill out rivets it is another story. Drill press is required.
But I understend that if someone suggested me to build AR with all those complications, I would pay 150 -200 for it.
Nah, I wouldn't want it to be a U-drive build. Don't you need a press for the barrel?

btw, I don't know **** about AK's

olegk
03-20-2006, 10:32 PM
Nah, I wouldn't want it to be a U-drive build. Don't you need a press for the barrel?

btw, I don't know **** about AK's

What difference? Factory assembly has barrel separated anyway and military requirements to combat weapons much higher than semi-auto target shooting and plinking
If you want to remove barrel and do regular rivets press is required. I red some articles explaining how to do it without press, but it risky. You can destroy a kit.

PanzerAce
03-20-2006, 10:35 PM
But I understend that if someone suggested me to build AR with all those complications, I would pay 150 -200 for it.

and you just hit the nail on the head for why there are far more ARs than AK receivers in state. for me atleast, with the ARs, I can deal with the idea of using punches, hammers, and screwdrivers. But I truthfully would not even really no where to start with an AK, and I always here about needing presses and the like. THAT is why I would pay someone to build it up for me..

JGarrison
04-16-2006, 1:56 PM
Bringing this back up cause I wanted to ask a question about buying complete rifles. Would it be legal to buy an off list complete rifle from out of state, and have it shipped to your FFL? From what I have researched and read, the seller could just ship you the upper and pistol grip, and send the lower to your FFL and it should be legal. Correct? Would the lower have to be completly stripped or could it just have the pistol grip taken off?

MsJamie
04-16-2006, 4:08 PM
Would the lower have to be completly stripped or could it just have the pistol grip taken off?

Depends. If it has a fixed stock, then that's all you need. If it has a telescoping or thumbhole stock, then the stock would have to be removed as well. By this point, you should ask if he'd be willing to affix a ten round magazine...

Remember, a telescoping stock is just as "evil" as a pistol grip.

The "mechanical bits" (trigger, etc.) inside the lower can stay; there's no problem with those.

xenophobe
04-16-2006, 4:25 PM
how about AKs?

My gunsmith is going to build several off-list AKs some time in the near future. No idea on price or if it will really happen though.

Jeff Rambo
04-16-2006, 4:25 PM
Perhaps I have misread your post, MsJamie but let me just clarify for JGarrison in case I am not the only one:

1- The rifle can be shipped into the state with any feature sans a grenade launcher as long as the magazine is fixed.

2- The rifle can be shipped into the state with an open magwell as long as it is in post-ban configuration + has no pistol grip.

Santa Cruz Armory
04-16-2006, 4:41 PM
1- The rifle can be shipped into the state with any feature sans a grenade launcher as long as the magazine is fixed.

2- The rifle can be shipped into the state with an open magwell as long as it is in post-ban configuration + has no pistol grip.

OK, Does anyone know of anbody selling AK's with the mag pinned? How do you go about pinning the mag on an AK?

Don't you need to have the "10 U.S. parts" ?

Is it legal to just have a AK shipped with a pinned mag and all the evil features??

I would be totally up for buying one if this was the case! or having someone build it for an extra $150 !

I'm still learning the AK thing...:confused:

bwiese
04-16-2006, 7:32 PM
If you have built firearms from off-list receivers, I'd be careful about selling them as there are excise tax issues involved.

Gunshops that go making "off-list ARs" and selling them as complete rifles w/o paying excise tax can get in a world of hurt.

Individuals selling more than 1 homebuilt in a year (not sure exact details) may have issues too.

Now, if the off-list receiver came off an already assembled rifle, the excise tax issue is moot.