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gose
03-16-2006, 11:36 AM
If I can legally possess, but not buy firearms, would it be considered a Straw Purchase if someone else buys a firearm and lends its to me?

It looks like it would be, at least if he buys it with the intention to lend it to me.

Lending a firearm to me that wasn't bought with the intention to lend it to me should still be ok though?

Appreciate some more input on this.

ohsmily
03-16-2006, 11:39 AM
If I can legally possess, but not buy firearms, would it be considered a Straw Purchase if someone else buys a firearm and lends its to me?

It looks like it would be, but maybe someone can provide some more input.

Lends no. Gives or sells, yes

You need to provide more information. Is the person buying it for themself and merely loaning it to you? Or are they buying it for the express purpose of "loaning" it to you.

And if you can legally own firearms, then you can legally buy them as well in your state of residence.

Guns R Tools
03-16-2006, 11:43 AM
If it is done within immediate familly members it should be ok. Like father or mother buying a handgun and giving it to a under 21 years old son or daughter. Many people buy rifles for their kids. I think as long as the gun stays in same household it should be ok.

Then again I am not a lawyer. So I could be wrong. Especially with 58 DA with different set of rules and standards.

gose
03-16-2006, 11:47 AM
Lends no. Gives or sells, yes

You need to provide more information. Is the person buying it for themself and merely loaning it to you? Or are they buying it for the express purpose of "loaning" it to you.

And if you can legally own firearms, then you can legally buy them as well in your state of residence.

I guess there are two cases.
1. Buying with the intent of loaning it to me
2. Loaning me something out of his existing "arsenal" or at least something that he purchased without the intent of loaning to me.

And yes, there are circumstances where you are allowed to possess but still can't buy. To clarify: Since I'm considered a non-immigrant alien it's perfectly legal for me to own firearms (and I have a few handguns already) but I have to be in the country for 90 _consecutive_ days to be able to buy anything. So if my comapny sends me on a business trip to Canada (or any other country) every 89 days it might take a while before I can actually buy anything.

PanzerAce
03-16-2006, 11:50 AM
And if you can legally own firearms, then you can legally buy them as well in your state of residence.

IIRC, isnt the possesion of handguns allowed at 18, but purchase at 21?

ohsmily
03-16-2006, 12:08 PM
Well, in any case, if he just lends you something out of his collection, or even something that he recently purchased, that should be fine (subject to the laws of loaning a handgun to someone). But, if he is purchasing a handgun at your behest for the purpose of you taking possession of it, that is a straw purchase.

Make sure anything that he buys he buys for HIMSELF. Then, if he chooses to lend it to you, that is his business.

gose
03-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Well, in any case, if he just lends you something out of his collection, or even something that he recently purchased, that should be fine (subject to the laws of loaning a handgun to someone). But, if he is purchasing a handgun at your behest for the purpose of you taking possession of it, that is a straw purchase.

Make sure anything that he buys he buys for HIMSELF. Then, if he chooses to lend it to you, that is his business.

Well, I'm quite ok with my handgun situation atm, so this only concerns long guns, but I guess the rules are the same?

ohsmily
03-16-2006, 12:27 PM
Well, I'm quite ok with my handgun situation atm, so this only concerns long guns, but I guess the rules are the same?

Yes, and the laws governing loaning a long gun are more relaxed than loaning handguns.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 12:29 PM
And yes, there are circumstances where you are allowed to possess but still can't buy. To clarify: Since I'm considered a non-immigrant alien it's perfectly legal for me to own firearms (and I have a few handguns already) but I have to be in the country for 90 _consecutive_ days to be able to buy anything. So if my comapny sends me on a business trip to Canada (or any other country) every 89 days it might take a while before I can actually buy anything.

Trying to go around these laws and aquiring a firearm when you're not legally able to purchase one is a crime in itself, regardless if your background is clean.

blacklisted
03-16-2006, 12:40 PM
IIRC, isnt the possesion of handguns allowed at 18, but purchase at 21?

Yes, and I intend on taking advantage of this before the magazine disconnect becomes required on new guns. :)

gose
03-16-2006, 12:41 PM
Trying to go around these laws and aquiring a firearm when you're not legally able to purchase one is a crime in itself, regardless if your background is clean.

Yeah, that was pretty clear and I have no intention in breaking any laws.

Just wanted to get some more info so I can avoid ending up in jail :)

Looks like the distinction between a straw purchase or not might be pretty hard.

If I borrow a firearm that someone bought 1 month ago and the owner later wants to sell it to me, would that be ok?
If I borrow a firearm that someone bought 5 years ago and the owner later wants to sell it to me, would that be ok?
If I ask someone to buy a firearm and lend it to me after a couple of weeks and I later buy it, would that be ok?
I guess the answers would be, yes, yes, no, but how is anyone ever going to be able to prove it and with 58 different DAs...

Thanks all for the info, and I will now stay very far away from all of this :)

glen avon
03-16-2006, 12:47 PM
a straw purchase is when you buy a gun for somebody to circumvent the law. it is not a straw purchase to buy a gun for a legitimate gift or as a matter of convenience.

gose
03-16-2006, 12:49 PM
a straw purchase is when you buy a gun for somebody to circumvent the law. it is not a straw purchase to buy a gun for a legitimate gift or as a matter of convenience.

So If someone buys me a long gun as a gift it would be ok?
I think that is something I don't want to explain in court ;)

ohsmily
03-16-2006, 12:51 PM
So If someone buys me a long gun as a gift it would be ok?
I think that is something I don't want to explain in court ;)

LEGITIMATE gift...meaning you would complete the proper paperwork to transfer it over officially or with no paperwork in the case of a spouse or child where paperwork is not required to transfer it.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 1:19 PM
If I borrow a firearm that someone bought 1 month ago and the owner later wants to sell it to me, would that be ok?
If I borrow a firearm that someone bought 5 years ago and the owner later wants to sell it to me, would that be ok?
If I ask someone to buy a firearm and lend it to me after a couple of weeks and I later buy it, would that be ok?
I guess the answers would be, yes, yes, no, but how is anyone ever going to be able to prove it and with 58 different DAs...

Loaning someone prohibited from buying firearms legally, in most cases is against the law.

I'm sorry, but your attempt at circumventing the law disturbs me greatly.

gose
03-16-2006, 1:51 PM
Loaning someone prohibited from buying firearms legally, in most cases is against the law.

I'm sorry, but your attempt at circumventing the law disturbs me greatly.

As I stated before, I have no intentions to break the law and the reason I'm asking is so I DONT end up doing that.

Do you really think that I, an alien on a visa, is stupid enough to even consider breaking any laws, especially regarding firearms? ;)

I have my handguns here and if I really cared I could have my rifles shipped in, but I just wanted to make sure that I understood the law and that there was no _legal_ ways to obtain a rifle (except getting my own stuff over, which I can't really bother doing considering the major pita it was to get my handguns here)

I'm sorry if this thread looks like an attempt to do something illegal, since that was NOT my intention!

My confusion was that normally when you aren't allowed to buy firearms, you aren't allowed to possess them either, and this didn't really apply to me, so I needed some clarification.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 2:43 PM
My confusion was that normally when you aren't allowed to buy firearms, you aren't allowed to possess them either, and this didn't really apply to me, so I needed some clarification.

You are NOT allowed to possess a firearm here. If you are a non-immigrant alien you are NOT allowed to purchase or possess firearms and ammunition unless you meet specific criteria. Having someone 'lend' you a firearm is an illegal act. You buying one from somone stating that they're only 'loaning' it to you is an illegal act. Asking someone to buy you a firearm and then giving it to you later, a month, a year, 10 years later is illegal. Your implication "but how is anyone ever going to be able to prove it"... I won't even go there. I'm sorry on our soil, US Citizens, Naturalized Aliens and Permanent Resident Aliens are allowed to possess and own firearms. You do not have that right unless you meet certain criteria.

Read these:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6nia/faqs.htm
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

In your case, trying to possess a firearm that you are not allowed to legally purchase or import is a crime.

gose
03-16-2006, 3:08 PM
You are NOT allowed to possess a firearm here. If you are a non-immigrant alien you are NOT allowed to purchase or possess firearms and ammunition unless you meet specific criteria. Having someone 'lend' you a firearm is an illegal act. You buying one from somone stating that they're only 'loaning' it to you is an illegal act. Asking someone to buy you a firearm and then giving it to you later, a month, a year, 10 years later is illegal. Your implication "but how is anyone ever going to be able to prove it"... I won't even go there. I'm sorry on our soil, US Citizens, Naturalized Aliens and Permanent Resident Aliens are allowed to possess and own firearms. You do not have that right unless you meet certain criteria.

Read these:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6nia/faqs.htm
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

In your case, trying to possess a firearm that you are not allowed to legally purchase or import is a crime.

Well, I am legally allowed to import and possess firearms. I have a bunch of approved forms from ATF and CBP saying just that.
Check the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005, page 62, § 478.120, or page 197 under: R. NONIMMIGRANT ALIENS.

The question here wasn't if I could legally possess or buy firearms, because I know I can. The base question was what would be considered a 'Straw Purchase' during the 90 days I have to wait, because I also know its legal for me to borrow a firearm from someone.
What I don't (didn't) know what when this might be considered a straw purchase and thus be illegal.
I have many other ways to spend my money other than on lawyers trying to keep me out of jail or from deportation ;)

edit: didn't read the URLs before posting this, but they say pretty much the same thing as the Ref. Guide. And yes, I am in possession of a valid hunting license, issued in California
edit again: Lets not turn this into a pissing contest. I have the answers I wanted and I apologized if it looked like I was fishing for something illegal, lets leave it with that?

artherd
03-16-2006, 3:35 PM
Well, in any case, if he just lends you something out of his collection, or even something that he recently purchased, that should be fine (subject to the laws of loaning a handgun to someone). But, if he is purchasing a handgun at your behest for the purpose of you taking possession of it, that is a straw purchase.

Make sure anything that he buys he buys for HIMSELF. Then, if he chooses to lend it to you, that is his business.

Here we go again, legislating intent for non-crimes :P

Be real careful, there's plenty of straw-purchase issues relating to concelaing the identidy of a purchaser, even if that purchaser is not himself a prohibited person!

You really should secure proper legal consul, and delete this thread. While it's clear your intentions are to obey the law in full, this is close enough to accidentally get you in biiiig trouble.

artherd
03-16-2006, 3:40 PM
Don't have it infront of me, but IIRC he cannot purchase, but there is also an exemption that would allow him posession due to his valid hunting lic.

Not sure if purchase applies to new dealer sale, or to a PPT at well (but I suspect it applies to any FFL transfer.)



You are NOT allowed to possess a firearm here. If you are a non-immigrant alien you are NOT allowed to purchase or possess firearms and ammunition unless you meet specific criteria. Having someone 'lend' you a firearm is an illegal act.

I'm sorry on our soil, US Citizens, Naturalized Aliens and Permanent Resident Aliens are allowed to possess and own firearms. You do not have that right unless you meet certain criteria.

Read these:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6nia/faqs.htm
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

In your case, trying to possess a firearm that you are not allowed to legally purchase or import is a crime.

Hunter
03-16-2006, 4:01 PM
You are NOT allowed to possess a firearm here. ...................{snip}.

How can you lead off with this statement when very clearly the exact references you provide do indeed show how nonimmigrant Aliens can indeed possess firearms?

You really should read what you write before posting. All this post does is create more mis-information. It would have been much clearer to have stated "You are ONLY allowed to possess a firearm IF you meet certain criteria........" .

gose
03-16-2006, 4:11 PM
Don't have it infront of me, but IIRC he cannot purchase, but there is also an exemption that would allow him posession due to his valid hunting lic.

Not sure if purchase applies to new dealer sale, or to a PPT at well (but I suspect it applies to any FFL transfer.)

Nah, I can legally purchase firearms, its clearly stated in the ATF Ref. Guide that its ok under certain circumstances.

Hmm, it actually says "purchasing from a FFL", somewhat implying that PPTs should be ok, but I doubt thats an accurate interpretation (and might be moot in CA anyway)

I think its time to contact the ATF...

461
03-16-2006, 4:26 PM
I think you've got an issue if you are buying the rifle with predetermined intent to sell to Gose at a date when he is legally able to purchase it, in that case you are clearly trying to circumvent the law and are indeed "Lying for the other guy" and in clear violation of the law. If you were to buy a rifle for yourself and just want to loan it then you are fine and I'd say that is what you should do and decide beforehand that you will not sell the rifle later to gose but if you decide later you don't want it then you should sell it to anyone but Gose.

I think certain laws are flawed and should be changed but to knowingly try to get around them is a bad idea and reverts to the giving a 4 year old a sharp stick and telling them to run around in circles with it rule. "No good can come from this"

gose
03-16-2006, 4:34 PM
I think you've got an issue if you are buying the rifle with predetermined intent to sell to Gose at a date when he is legally able to purchase it, in that case you are clearly trying to circumvent the law and are indeed "Lying for the other guy" and in clear violation of the law. If you were to buy a rifle for yourself and just want to loan it then you are fine and I'd say that is what you should do and decide beforehand that you will not sell the rifle later to gose but if you decide later you don't want it then you should sell it to anyone but Gose.

I think certain laws are flawed and should be changed but to knowingly try to get around them is a bad idea and reverts to the giving a 4 year old a sharp stick and telling them to run around in circles with it rule. "No good can come from this"

Yes, I think Treelogger's two last scenarios would be illegal, since it's impossible to prove intent in the second case. The third case most certainly is illegal, since it doesn't even have the intent. First scenario? Maybe, maybe not, but the risks involved are too great to guess and risk it.

The 90 consecutive days rule does actually make sense if the alien doesn't own any guns, but when you, like me, already have nine handguns and it stops me from buying a 10/22 it comes out as pretty silly...

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 6:33 PM
Don't have it infront of me, but IIRC he cannot purchase, but there is also an exemption that would allow him posession due to his valid hunting lic.

Not sure if purchase applies to new dealer sale, or to a PPT at well (but I suspect it applies to any FFL transfer.)

Where does it state above my last message that he has a valid hunting license?

Am I supposed to assume this? Also, should I assume that he has some kind of permission from the Embassy, a waiver from the DOJ or that he has Diplomatic status? Sorry, from the facts he has given, my statements are correct.


How can you lead off with this statement when very clearly the exact references you provide do indeed show how nonimmigrant Aliens can indeed possess firearms?

You really should read what you write before posting. All this post does is create more mis-information. It would have been much clearer to have stated "You are ONLY allowed to possess a firearm IF you meet certain criteria........" .

Okay, show me in the whole thread above my last post where he declares that he has some specific exemption?

1. Q. May foreign visitors and other nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?

A. Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1. nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;
2. nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;
3. certain diplomats;
4. officials of foreign governments or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;
5. foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and
6. persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.



Again, I only see that he says he is a non-immigrant alien, and implying that he's trying to find ways to bypass the law.

gose
03-16-2006, 7:03 PM
"Again, I only see that he says he is a non-immigrant alien, and implying that he's trying to find ways to bypass the law."

That's one way of seeing it, the other would be that I'm trying to figure out the laws so I can be in compliance with them.

I now realize that posting a question here about legal matters was stupid and I will never do that again. In the future I will direct my questions directly to the ATF and DOJ instead.

I also find it somewhat sad and an insult of my intelligence that I'm suspected of trying to do something illegal. Maybe for someone completely unknown, but I've been around a while and have never posted anything that could be questionable. Instead, I have posted about the hassle I had to go through to get my stuff into the state/country legally.

Anyway, this thread got slightly out of hand and I don't think anyone would miss it, if it were to disappear into /dev/null. ;)

Hunter
03-16-2006, 7:31 PM
Where does it state above my last message that he has a valid hunting license?

Am I supposed to assume this? Also, should I assume that he has some kind of permission from the Embassy, a waiver from the DOJ or that he has Diplomatic status? Sorry, from the facts he has given, my statements are correct.

Okay, show me in the whole thread above my last post where he declares that he has some specific exemption?

Again, I only see that he says he is a non-immigrant alien, and implying that he's trying to find ways to bypass the law.

I agree with you that nothing was stated about exemptions but at the same time you cannot make the claims you state as well. My point is that your first sentence makes a statement that essentially says if you are a nonimmigrant alien, you cannot possess firearms. Period

This is what I took exception too as it is incorrect. The truth is non-immigrant aliens have limited ability to possess firearms and not all nonimmigrants aliens will be able to have them. Nothing more.

There are lots of folks that are nonillegal aliens that come to the US every year with firearms. Heck I just ran into a bunch of them at this years SHOT show! Hunting is only one exception to allowing possession.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 7:36 PM
I'm sorry, I'm a gun dealer and I don't like suspect questions.... the title of the thread "Straw purchases" and your questions on ways to get around the laws still bother me.

You didn't ask for any local Gun Club Endorsements, nor did you ask about getting firearms illegally, you never mentioned that you had any specific expemtions, just questioned which straw purchase method might be legal.

If you are a non-immigrant and you have a hunting license, you're allowed to purchase firearms. You know that much. You also know there is a method for legally importing your own firearms. I suggest you persue these avenues instead of asking how to circumvent the law. You know that saying... Good intentions.... Anyways, I'm sorry, I will ALWAYS take the hard line on the law regarding firearms, as my job and my livelyhood depend on me being straight and consistent, online and in the shop.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 7:41 PM
I agree with you that nothing was stated about exemptions but at the same time you cannot make the claims you state as well. My point is that your first sentence makes a statement that essentially says if you are a nonimmigrant alien, you cannot possess firearms. Period

This is what I took exception too as it is incorrect. The truth is non-immigrant aliens have limited ability to possess firearms and not all nonimmigrants aliens will be able to have them. Nothing more.

There are lots of folks that are nonillegal aliens that come to the US every year with firearms. Heck I just ran into a bunch of them at this years SHOT show! Hunting is only one exception to allowing possession.

Yes, I'm aware that non-immigrant aliens are allowed to own firearms. When I get this question in the shop, I tell them to contact the ATF, their Embassy, and any local gun clubs that they might be shooting at to provide them with documentation to receive an exemption.

UNTIL THERE IS AN EXEMPTION, non-immigrant aliens are NOT allowed to own, possess or purchase firearms. Period. I deal with Hispanics coming in from Mexico on a daily basis wishing to purchase firearms and have no problem selling them firearms WHEN they have a proper exemption. If they don't, I will not tell them to talk their uncle into buying a shotgun so they can hand it to them outside the store. Sorry. I expect that you would?

Hunter
03-16-2006, 7:52 PM
..........I will not tell them to talk their uncle into buying a shotgun so they can hand it to them outside the store. Sorry. I expect that you would?:confused:

Xenophobe:
I have yet to say anything about straw purchases, I have only pointing out that the way your post was stated could be taken incorrectly on possession status. So there is nothing I have said to justify this statement you have directed at me on straw purchases...

Mind your manners, you are in a public place. Enough said.

artherd
03-16-2006, 8:08 PM
Ooops, read his reply before your's, sorry :P

Where does it state above my last message that he has a valid hunting license?

Am I supposed to assume this? Also, should I assume that he has some kind of permission from the Embassy, a waiver from the DOJ or that he has Diplomatic status? Sorry, from the facts he has given, my statements are correct.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 11:10 PM
Doing this for over a decade of my life on a daily basis HAS left me rather jaded on certain circumstances. I have strong opinions and fight them to the death. I think I'll stop chiming in with opinion, it just gets everything stirred up, and as much of an ******* that I can be, I don't mean to do so purposely... It was not the fact that you are a non-immigrant alien trying to purchase guns, it's the manner which you went about asking the questions that disturbed me. Anyways, my apologies to you Gose.

gose
03-16-2006, 11:31 PM
Doing this for over a decade of my life on a daily basis HAS left me rather jaded on certain circumstances. I have strong opinions and fight them to the death. I think I'll stop chiming in with opinion, it just gets everything stirred up, and as much of an ******* that I can be, I don't mean to do so purposely... It was not the fact that you are a non-immigrant alien trying to purchase guns, it's the manner which you went about asking the questions that disturbed me. Anyways, my apologies to you Gose.

As I've said before, maybe the question should have been asked in another way, or maybe not at all.

I've seen my share of people asking for help to do outright illegal things online, so I should have known better... well, well...

See you in 78 days ;)