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nyenthsiast
05-20-2010, 7:23 AM
So I've been helping a cousin of mine who lives out in Cali research the firearm laws out there so he can make his own purchase. Originally he wanted to go with an Ar, but, hes not in love with the idea of having a bb on his rifle. I was wondering what some other decent tactical rifle options were. What are peoples opinions of the Kel tec SU-16 range of rifles or saiga's? Mini 14, 30 etc, are they cali legal? How do they compare?

Pvt. Cowboy
05-20-2010, 7:31 AM
How about a good old M1A?

Agro
05-20-2010, 7:32 AM
Why not just do a featureless AR-15 then? If he is a fan of the AR rifle, then if/when CA reverses this law, then he can simply add all the features to his AR. Saiga is a cheap choice, but I wouldn't choose it over a featureless AR.

Ronco
05-20-2010, 7:35 AM
EDIT: Agro beat me to it...

-------

He can buy an AR. He'll just need to make a "no features" build. Do some searching around on calguns and you'll find lots of info.

FYI:

http://californiarifles.com/

http://www.monstermangrip.com/

C.W.M.V.
05-20-2010, 7:36 AM
The thing is that any rifle liky that with a detachable magazine will have to have a bullet button. I personally went with a Saiga, in stoch form its a sporter and dosent need a BB and converted with a mm pistol grip its good to go without the BB, but that's true of ar's too. Have you checked the flowchart?

Dangerpin
05-20-2010, 7:40 AM
There are ways to have your Cali legal AR without the bb. Have him take a look at the monsterman grip and the grip wraps for featureless AR builds. There are some good pics here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=253777

And many more scattered around if you do some searches for "featureless"

The other options you brought up are California legal in their original configurations. Saigas are excellent guns. I have a mini-30 which I really enjoy and have shot Mini-14's and they are fun guns but have nowhere near the amount of tactical options the AR's have.

ISTALINI
05-20-2010, 9:08 AM
I have a mini-30 which I really enjoy and have shot Mini-14's and they are fun guns but have nowhere near the amount of tactical options the AR's have.

can you elaborate on your usage of "tactical options", because once a weapon has a bullet button on it, to me it looses a lot of tactical ability. and if you are referring to featureless you cant legally put any evil accessories on it.

dieselpower
05-20-2010, 10:26 AM
So I've been helping a cousin of mine who lives out in Cali research the firearm laws out there so he can make his own purchase. Originally he wanted to go with an Ar, but, hes not in love with the idea of having a bb on his rifle. I was wondering what some other decent tactical rifle options were. What are peoples opinions of the Kel tec SU-16 range of rifles or saiga's? Mini 14, 30 etc, are they cali legal? How do they compare?

So your cousin thinks he will be fighting off dozens of armed persons or hordes of zombies....thats why he doesnt want a BB....

yeah in his case a GSG-5 with a fake silencer (gotta look cool for the youtube videos) or Mini-14 with a hunting stock and no features is so much better then a AR15 w/ bb........:cool:

It simply blows my mind how kids think.

C.W.M.V.
05-20-2010, 10:34 AM
On an AK but heres my featurless Saiga 74 with MM grip.

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t322/dotson_kc/IMG00017-20100506-1738.jpghttp://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t322/dotson_kc/IMG00021-20100506-1740.jpg
http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t322/dotson_kc/IMG00022-20100506-1740.jpg

No Bullet Button for me!

ISTALINI
05-20-2010, 10:54 AM
So your cousin thinks he will be fighting off dozens of armed persons or hordes of zombies....thats why he doesnt want a BB....

yeah in his case a GSG-5 with a fake silencer (gotta look cool for the youtube videos) or Mini-14 with a hunting stock and no features is so much better then a AR15 w/ bb........:cool:

It simply blows my mind how kids think.

i would rather have a mini 14 with a hunting stock then a mall ninja AR. cause look if you get a AR to plink then cool, but as soon as you use a BB rifle as a defensive weapon you are out of your mind.

gadjeep
05-20-2010, 11:04 AM
Maybe he just wants to run and gun without fumbling for magazine changes.

Killawhale415
05-20-2010, 11:59 AM
Saiga rifle in 7.62, 5.45 or .223

Cheap, featureless(no BB) and very affordable ammo
Very fun little rifles.

Bhobbs
05-20-2010, 12:19 PM
So your cousin thinks he will be fighting off dozens of armed persons or hordes of zombies....thats why he doesnt want a BB....

yeah in his case a GSG-5 with a fake silencer (gotta look cool for the youtube videos) or Mini-14 with a hunting stock and no features is so much better then a AR15 w/ bb........:cool:

It simply blows my mind how kids think.

Your actually gonna put someone down when they want a rifle that functions as it should?

It blows my mind that people buy an AR and strap on all the tacticool features and lock the mag to feel like Delta Force or a Ranger with their buddies.

Cyc Wid It
05-20-2010, 12:26 PM
I guess if it really was that kind of situation, most people would just take out their bullet buttons or disable them...

Dangerpin
05-20-2010, 1:10 PM
I guess if it really was that kind of situation, most people would just take out their bullet buttons or disable them...

Exactly.

Bhobbs
05-20-2010, 1:21 PM
I guess if it really was that kind of situation, most people would just take out their bullet buttons or disable them...

You would risk felony possession of an AW instead of just having a Mini14? I mean whats the difference between a .5 MOA group in a guys chest vs a 2 MOA group?

telcolineman
05-20-2010, 1:30 PM
I personally use a 45 HG for home defense, I have several Ar's and such. But lets face it. If you can't stop an intruder with 10 rds, You need to learn how to shoot accurately

Dangerpin
05-20-2010, 1:34 PM
The point I was taking from Cyc's post was that in most situations I am not going to need to fire off more than 10 rounds. And the situations I can think of where I might have to actually run and gun involve a breakdown of society to the point where felony possession of an AW would be the least of my problems or my concerns.

Perhaps Chino is vastly different from Sacramento so YMMV.

dieselpower
05-20-2010, 1:39 PM
You guys are missing the darn point here....

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE FIGHTING ZOMBIES
YOU ARE NOT A SEAL OPERATOR FIGHTING THE TALABAN
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE IN A SHTF SITUATION WHERE A DOZEN AK47 ARMED TERRORIST ARE ATTACKING YOUR HOME...

GROW UP.

The AR15 is the best long-arm platform made to date...period, end of story. There is no other firearm in the world that can do what it can do. It is user configured for THOUSANDS of different applications.

When the day comes where your video game, Hollywood movie fantasy comes true...just remove the BB, until that time start acting like and thinking like a rational person.

Dangerpin
05-20-2010, 1:46 PM
What about five gangland intruders hopped up on meth? Kicking down the door in the middle of the night when you are sound asleep? I'll take 30 rounds please, for starters. Wife's got the 12 ga.

My rifles won't be my first line of HD, it will be my Saiga12. The OP specifically mentions rifles so home defense isn't the first set of tactics that spring to my mind. Also, have I mentioned that I am glad not to be one of your neighbors, lowracer? :P

Yeah, if the OP is looking for a HD gun that is an entirely different question.

Salty
05-20-2010, 1:54 PM
So your cousin thinks he will be fighting off dozens of armed persons or hordes of zombies....thats why he doesnt want a BB....
...

It simply blows my mind how kids think.

It blows my mind that grown *** adults consider using fixed 10 round magazines for self defense.

Now if you just want your fixed mag AR as a fun gun, that's a completely different story.

Dangerpin
05-20-2010, 2:03 PM
I think we are making a lot of assumptions about about what the OP's cousin wants and why. The OP never mentioned self defense at all as far as my bad eyes can see. I think the question needs to go back through nyenthusiast and get some clarification so we can be the most help.

stix213
05-20-2010, 2:15 PM
Saiga of any caliber gets my vote. Whether you are fighting off zombies, taliban, a dozen armed terrorists, or just plinking on a sunday. It'll just work ;)

You can go featureless with the monte carlo stock so you can keep detachable mags, or you can go fixed mag with a pistol grip like mine.

dieselpower
05-20-2010, 2:41 PM
so lets sum this all up...

The saiga with a monte carlo stock is better then an AR15 with hammerhead, MMG or Solar grip...roger that.

The Mini-14 has hundreds of calibers available and can be changed with tool easily found at most stores....roger that

The Kel Tec is serviced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors offering everything you can possibly imagine or need...roger that

The M1A doesnt need to follow the AW flow chart, so you can add any feature you want to make it a "tactical" firearm as the OP stated.....roger that.

The AR15 is a useless firearm pron to constant failure and is totally inaccurate for anything other then range work. The FACT you can not modify one for featureless or fixed magazine is a draw back to the design, Once the BB is installed you are done..it can never be changed again..............roger that

yeah, I now agree, the Mini14 / kal-tec or SKS is a way better long arm then a AR15..

/thread

Bhobbs
05-20-2010, 2:47 PM
so lets sum this all up...

The saiga with a monte carlo stock is better then an AR15 with hammerhead, MMG or Solar grip...roger that.

The Mini-14 has hundreds of calibers available and can be changed with tool easily found at most stores....roger that

The Kel Tec is serviced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors offering everything you can possibly imagine or need...roger that

The M1A doesnt need to follow the AW flow chart, so you can add any feature you want to make it a "tactical" firearm as the OP stated.....roger that.

The AR15 is a useless firearm pron to constant failure and is totally inaccurate for anything other then range work. The FACT you can not modify one for featureless or fixed magazine is a draw back to the design, Once the BB is installed you are done..it can never be changed again..............roger that

yeah, I now agree, the Mini14 / kal-tec or SKS is a way better long arm then a AR15..

/thread

So basically you are saying to get the f*ck over not liking a bullet button because the AR is superior in many ways?

The guy can want to get a sharp stick over an AR and that is his choice.

telcolineman
05-20-2010, 2:51 PM
I agree that the BB requirement is BS, As for the 5 gang members hopped up on meth. I guess it all boils down to where you live, In my neck of the woods it is more likely to be a bear or mountain lion. I personally wouldn't put my family in an area where the gangs are an issue, Just my 2 cents worth. Move to an area where you don't have to worry about it

stix213
05-20-2010, 4:15 PM
so lets sum this all up...

The saiga with a monte carlo stock is better then an AR15 with hammerhead, MMG or Solar grip...roger that.

The Mini-14 has hundreds of calibers available and can be changed with tool easily found at most stores....roger that

The Kel Tec is serviced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors offering everything you can possibly imagine or need...roger that

The M1A doesnt need to follow the AW flow chart, so you can add any feature you want to make it a "tactical" firearm as the OP stated.....roger that.

The AR15 is a useless firearm pron to constant failure and is totally inaccurate for anything other then range work. The FACT you can not modify one for featureless or fixed magazine is a draw back to the design, Once the BB is installed you are done..it can never be changed again..............roger that

yeah, I now agree, the Mini14 / kal-tec or SKS is a way better long arm then a AR15..

/thread

OP specifically asked for opinions on rifles OTHER than the AR platform if you didn't notice the point of the thread here :p

Sumo99
05-20-2010, 5:02 PM
I mean whats the difference between a .5 MOA group in a guys chest vs a 2 MOA group?

1.5 :rolleyes:

Cyc Wid It
05-20-2010, 5:06 PM
Ok to answer the OP's question... maybe something in .22?

Regarding my comment about bullet button's: I'm not advocating breaking the law, I'm just saying if there's some sort of crazy post apocalyptic situation/war zone/zombie invasion/etc. you can probably remove it without being arrested...

AND if you are really that much of a tacticool/mall ninja/whatever type you've probably practiced super-fast-fancy-reloading techniques with some sort of bullet button aid and keep a pile of loaded magazines around at all times

telcolineman
05-20-2010, 5:07 PM
Mini 14 30 sks, all good choices for other than an AR

pointedstick
05-20-2010, 5:15 PM
If you want to feel cool, get an AR with a bullet button (admit it, that's why we have 'em). If you want to run-and-gun, get a Mini-14, Saiga, Kel-Tec, or featureless AR. If you want to be an elite tactical entry special forces commando operator ninja, join the military or law enforcement.

dieselpower
05-20-2010, 6:08 PM
OP specifically asked for opinions on rifles OTHER than the AR platform if you didn't notice the point of the thread here :p


Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.

I will try again here for all the young guys and old guys alike. I am hoping to pass on a bitter sweet lesson I learned.

25 years I re-enlisted and draw orders to California from the east coast. I wanted to add to my gun collection. All my buddies told me to get an AR15. I scoffed at them for a ton of reasons. I picked myself up a great long-arm a M1A. I wanted a battle rifle, a known good work horse for combat.

Several years later I found myself wanting something smaller, lighter, easier to work on myself, something "tactical". Again my friends told me to get an AR. I once again scoffed at them. I picked up an HK-94 with fake can to hide the 16" barrel. Its was a great firearm, but I was not satisfied with the 9mm.

I then bought a M17s, over the very vocal objections from my AR15 friends. I had truly bought into all the BS about invasion from space aliens and completely ignored the logical mans thought.

In the next few years I was shooting more and more with my friends. It was slowly dawning on me what they were talking about. The firearm was everything I wanted in all the firearms I owned...all in one weapon.

This was about the time the Internet was coming into its own (56K dial up...LOL). I had a permanent loaned AR15 in my house with several uppers to choose from. For at least 2 years my other firearms, (which were great longarms) collected dust, while time and time again I went shooting with the AR15.

Jump to 1998ish, the AG leaked the new California anti-AW ban was coming...I scrambled to buy an AR15, the first of many to follow, Turners in Riverside had a huge selection. (I also bought a rare snake from that reptile store next door IIRC...lol).

I realize you can not open a "Field & Stream" or "Woman's home daily" magazine without seeing some advertisement on AR15s or AR15 parts for sale. I know its annoying and we have urge to reject the "follow the crowd" mentality. But the firearms are popular for a reason.

If you ignore the AR15, simply because of a BB or weird stock/grip you are sadly being a nuub. You are ignoring everything the AR15 brings to your list of PROs, because of 1 CON that can be easily dealt with if needed.

Young guys want to buck the system because the old farts are "the establishment" and you can't side with anyone over 30. The Old guys long for the years since gone. they both make the sad and terrible mistake of NOT buying an AR15.

Don't be stupid here. All the other firearms you can name have a place in your life AFTER you buy an AR15.

telcolineman
05-20-2010, 6:23 PM
Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.

I will try again here for all the young guys and old guys alike. I am hoping to pass on a bitter sweet lesson I learned.

25 years I re-enlisted and draw orders to California from the east coast. I wanted to add to my gun collection. All my buddies told me to get an AR15. I scoffed at them for a ton of reasons. I picked myself up a great long-arm a M1A. I wanted a battle rifle, a known good work horse for combat.

Several years later I found myself wanting something smaller, lighter, easier to work on myself, something "tactical". Again my friends told me to get an AR. I once again scoffed at them. I picked up an HK-94 with fake can to hide the 16" barrel. Its was a great firearm, but I was not satisfied with the 9mm.

I then bought a M17s, over the very vocal objections from my AR15 friends. I had truly bought into all the BS about invasion from space aliens and completely ignored the logical mans thought.

In the next few years I was shooting more and more with my friends. It was slowly dawning on me what they were talking about. The firearm was everything I wanted in all the firearms I owned...all in one weapon.

This was about the time the Internet was coming into its own (56K dial up...LOL). I had a permanent loaned AR15 in my house with several uppers to choose from. For at least 2 years my other firearms, (which were great longarms) collected dust, while time and time again I went shooting with the AR15.

Jump to 1998ish, the AG leaked the new California anti-AW ban was coming...I scrambled to buy an AR15, the first of many to follow, Turners in Riverside had a huge selection. (I also bought a rare snake from that reptile store next door IIRC...lol).

I realize you can not open a "Field & Stream" or "Woman's home daily" magazine without seeing some advertisement on AR15s or AR15 parts for sale. I know its annoying and we have urge to reject the "follow the crowd" mentality. But the firearms are popular for a reason.

If you ignore the AR15, simply because of a BB or weird stock/grip you are sadly being a nuub. You are ignoring everything the AR15 brings to your list of PROs, because of 1 CON that can be easily dealt with if needed.

Young guys want to buck the system because the old farts are "the establishment" and you can't side with anyone over 30. The Old guys long for the years since gone. they both make the sad and terrible mistake of NOT buying an AR15.

Don't be stupid here. All the other firearms you can name have a place in your life AFTER you buy an AR15.


I couldn't agree more, I love my Ar's both the 10 and 15. A BB is just one of the things we here in California have to deal with, But when we take a short trip out of the state we can use the wonder wrench to make it a standard mag release:D:D Gota love it

C.W.M.V.
05-20-2010, 6:30 PM
...The AR15 is the best long-arm platform made to date...period, end of story. There is no other firearm in the world that can do what it can do. It is user configured for THOUSANDS of different applications...

Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.

I will try again here for all the young guys and old guys alike. I am hoping to pass on a bitter sweet lesson I learned.

25 years I re-enlisted and draw orders to California from the east coast. I wanted to add to my gun collection. All my buddies told me to get an AR15. I scoffed at them for a ton of reasons. I picked myself up a great long-arm a M1A. I wanted a battle rifle, a known good work horse for combat.

Several years later I found myself wanting something smaller, lighter, easier to work on myself, something "tactical". Again my friends told me to get an AR. I once again scoffed at them. I picked up an HK-94 with fake can to hide the 16" barrel. Its was a great firearm, but I was not satisfied with the 9mm.

I then bought a M17s, over the very vocal objections from my AR15 friends. I had truly bought into all the BS about invasion from space aliens and completely ignored the logical mans thought.

In the next few years I was shooting more and more with my friends. It was slowly dawning on me what they were talking about. The firearm was everything I wanted in all the firearms I owned...all in one weapon.

This was about the time the Internet was coming into its own (56K dial up...LOL). I had a permanent loaned AR15 in my house with several uppers to choose from. For at least 2 years my other firearms, (which were great longarms) collected dust, while time and time again I went shooting with the AR15.

Jump to 1998ish, the AG leaked the new California anti-AW ban was coming...I scrambled to buy an AR15, the first of many to follow, Turners in Riverside had a huge selection. (I also bought a rare snake from that reptile store next door IIRC...lol).

I realize you can not open a "Field & Stream" or "Woman's home daily" magazine without seeing some advertisement on AR15s or AR15 parts for sale. I know its annoying and we have urge to reject the "follow the crowd" mentality. But the firearms are popular for a reason.

If you ignore the AR15, simply because of a BB or weird stock/grip you are sadly being a nuub. You are ignoring everything the AR15 brings to your list of PROs, because of 1 CON that can be easily dealt with if needed.

Young guys want to buck the system because the old farts are "the establishment" and you can't side with anyone over 30. The Old guys long for the years since gone. they both make the sad and terrible mistake of NOT buying an AR15.

Don't be stupid here. All the other firearms you can name have a place in your life AFTER you buy an AR15.

Look guy-I have nothing but respect for my elders and any veteran is a firend of mine, but that being said...where exactly do you get your crack?

I appreciate your story but here's my counter. I carried an M16/M4 type for a total of nearly 3 years in Iraq, doing my 11 series thing (daily patrols Baghdad, Fallujah, Babbel, Baghdad again, and Baquaba), and I HATE THE DAMN THING! You talk about "the best long arm platform made to date", by which measure? If your talking to an Infantryman in Iraq today the biggest factor is reliability-and the ol' AK has M16 beaten black and blue in that regard. We even tried to ditch our M16/M4's in favor of carrying captured AK's to no avail. Why? because they went bang every time we pulled the trigger. I personally pulled AK's out of an irrigation ditch from a 3 year old cache, opened the top, turned it over dumped the mud out of it, locked, loaded, fired. NO M16 could do that. They fire a heavier cartridge and will do so anywhere anytime. For a range weapon sure M16 looks cool, shoots pretty straight and, well, that's about it. I can get 1 MOA out of my '74 with irons, and not worry about dragging it through mud, rain, sand, dust, snow, heat, sleet, slush, etc...

For your generation the M16 represented an advancement of technology from old wooden rifles. Not sure about how old you are exactly but older generations were raised with the mentality that the only stuff the Russians did well was copy the west-which has since been confirmed as blatantly false. Our stuff may have flashing lights and pretty displays, but russian equipment for the most part simply works, period. My generation has the luxury of hindsight. While the US is looking for a replacement for the M16, the AK series is still running strong and in no danger of being replaced in more than half the worlds countries. The AK series has proved to be a simpler, more reliable and battle proven weapon system. It is the standard by which others are judged, hell its even on national flags.

I understand where your opinions come from, but I think your wrong.

Sorry OP, not meant to hijack.

Bhobbs
05-20-2010, 6:41 PM
Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.

I will try again here for all the young guys and old guys alike. I am hoping to pass on a bitter sweet lesson I learned.

25 years I re-enlisted and draw orders to California from the east coast. I wanted to add to my gun collection. All my buddies told me to get an AR15. I scoffed at them for a ton of reasons. I picked myself up a great long-arm a M1A. I wanted a battle rifle, a known good work horse for combat.

Several years later I found myself wanting something smaller, lighter, easier to work on myself, something "tactical". Again my friends told me to get an AR. I once again scoffed at them. I picked up an HK-94 with fake can to hide the 16" barrel. Its was a great firearm, but I was not satisfied with the 9mm.

I then bought a M17s, over the very vocal objections from my AR15 friends. I had truly bought into all the BS about invasion from space aliens and completely ignored the logical mans thought.

In the next few years I was shooting more and more with my friends. It was slowly dawning on me what they were talking about. The firearm was everything I wanted in all the firearms I owned...all in one weapon.

This was about the time the Internet was coming into its own (56K dial up...LOL). I had a permanent loaned AR15 in my house with several uppers to choose from. For at least 2 years my other firearms, (which were great longarms) collected dust, while time and time again I went shooting with the AR15.

Jump to 1998ish, the AG leaked the new California anti-AW ban was coming...I scrambled to buy an AR15, the first of many to follow, Turners in Riverside had a huge selection. (I also bought a rare snake from that reptile store next door IIRC...lol).

I realize you can not open a "Field & Stream" or "Woman's home daily" magazine without seeing some advertisement on AR15s or AR15 parts for sale. I know its annoying and we have urge to reject the "follow the crowd" mentality. But the firearms are popular for a reason.

If you ignore the AR15, simply because of a BB or weird stock/grip you are sadly being a nuub. You are ignoring everything the AR15 brings to your list of PROs, because of 1 CON that can be easily dealt with if needed.

Young guys want to buck the system because the old farts are "the establishment" and you can't side with anyone over 30. The Old guys long for the years since gone. they both make the sad and terrible mistake of NOT buying an AR15.

Don't be stupid here. All the other firearms you can name have a place in your life AFTER you buy an AR15.

What's tactical about having a locked magazine? If you want a DM you have to remove all the "tactical" features. I don't care if you can have a quad rail with 3 different optics, 6 different flash lights, a VFG, pistol grip, collapsible stock and everything that makes an AR so worth while if you have to fiddle with a mag lock to reload.

Flogger23m
05-20-2010, 7:01 PM
I agree, a mag locked AR is not a good choice for home defense. You don't want to be fiddling with a tool if you really need to reload.

The awkward grips feel odd, but if you can use them, then that is good.

IMO, if you want a good rifle for home defense, a Saiga in .223 is a great choice. Plenty of accurate for in doors, but really cheap and reliable with detachable mags.

shadowofnight
05-20-2010, 7:06 PM
What's tactical about having a locked magazine? If you want a DM you have to remove all the "tactical" features. I don't care if you can have a quad rail with 3 different optics, 6 different flash lights, a VFG, pistol grip, collapsible stock and everything that makes an AR so worth while if you have to fiddle with a mag lock to reload.

My new AR's are nothing but toys to me , the Socom II ...12 Gauge and 45 are for when it gets serious.

That being said , if you have an AR configured with a BB ...and it becomes neccesary in your life that AW laws are the least of your concerns...aka SHTF...etc.....no tools required...done in 1 second flat ( 2 seconds if you are slow ) all you do is twist this on one or 2 threads....you have a fully functioning regular mag release that wont fall off.

Bullet button wrench http://www.riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx Even the description says this..."
When you travel out of California or use it on a rimfire rifle, you can screw it on a few extra turns and use it like a normal magazine release button! "


Of course no one here would advise this in normal law abiding times , but for you guys that are so worried about the end of the world as we know it.....this is lightening quick...no tools...wont fall off....so why treat bullet button AR's like they are worthless ? In your martial law/SHTF world those AW laws go out the window....so buy a 6 dollar tool that functions flawlessly as a regular mag release and requires a second and no tools to throw on...leave it where you store your AR and quit worrying

Bhobbs
05-20-2010, 7:18 PM
My new AR's are nothing but toys to me , the Socom II ...12 Gauge and 45 are for when it gets serious.

That being said , if you have an AR configured with a BB ...and it becomes neccesary in your life that AW laws are the least of your concerns...aka SHTF...etc.....no tools required...done in 1 second flat ( 2 seconds if you are slow ) all you do is twist this on one or 2 threads....you have a fully functioning regular mag release that wont fall off.

Bullet button wrench http://www.riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx Even the description says this..."
When you travel out of California or use it on a rimfire rifle, you can screw it on a few extra turns and use it like a normal magazine release button! "


Of course no one here would advise this in normal law abiding times , but for you guys that are so worried about the end of the world as we know it.....this is lightening quick...no tools...wont fall off....so why treat bullet button AR's like they are worthless ? In your martial law/SHTF world those AW laws go out the window....so buy a 6 dollar tool that functions flawlessly as a regular mag release and requires a second and no tools to throw on...leave it where you store your AR and quit worrying

I have an AR and like it when I bring it to the range but it will never compare to my M1. Why? Because I can use it as it was designed. It is accurate, powerful, easy to handle and reload.

MustangGreg66
05-20-2010, 7:20 PM
Look guy-I have nothing but respect for my elders and any veteran is a firend of mine, but that being said...where exactly do you get your crack?
...


:rofl:

-hanko
05-20-2010, 7:23 PM
Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.
I understand. I used to think "tactical" is what you DO.

In the context of calguns, "tactical" has nothing to do with what the rifle does, but only how the rifle looks...like sauce without the meat;).

Best analogy I can think of is most (certainly not all) Harley riders...buy a bike you can accessorize that actually looks like everyone else's, dress up like every other rider, and express your "independence".

I can't fault "tactical" rifles nor Harley's, other than to say both are usually way too heavy:D, and therefore not my cup o' tea.

Otoh, whatever gun YOU want is what you should get...with experience using actual weapons away from the video game, you'll better appreciate one gun over another.

We've all got preferences. Live & let live, even if you think the choice is stupid.

-hanko

railroader
05-20-2010, 7:28 PM
I use to have a saiga 223 and a keltec su16. I currently have a featureless ar and a bullet button ar. My featureless ar has a monsterman grip. Overall I like my MM ar alot better than the saiga or the keltec. The ar has a much better trigger than the other two and is more accurate. The ar is totally reliable, so was the saiga and the keltec was pretty reliable. Mark

Cali-V
05-20-2010, 7:57 PM
Just to add, given an ambi selector and mmg, there are quite a few tactical features which can be incorporated in a featureless build...

Just make sure not to include the following:

a thumbhole stock or
a folding or telescopic stock;
a flash suppressor, grenade launcher or flare launcher;
a forward pistol grip...

Also, not quite a rifle, but an UZI type pistol is always a fun and functional toy...

SReagle
05-20-2010, 10:32 PM
my vote would be the mini 30 Ranch , a new one that has the thicker barrel, plenty of stopping power for what ever your needs may be hunting or otherwise and a ton of fun to shoot, buy a few 10 round mags and have some fun either hunting, plinking.
GL

dieselpower
05-21-2010, 12:06 AM
Look guy-I have nothing but respect for my elders and any veteran is a firend of mine, but that being said...where exactly do you get your crack?

I appreciate your story but here's my counter. I carried an M16/M4 type for a total of nearly 3 years in Iraq, doing my 11 series thing (daily patrols Baghdad, Fallujah, Babbel, Baghdad again, and Baquaba), and I HATE THE DAMN THING! You talk about "the best long arm platform made to date", by which measure? If your talking to an Infantryman in Iraq today the biggest factor is reliability-and the ol' AK has M16 beaten black and blue in that regard. We even tried to ditch our M16/M4's in favor of carrying captured AK's to no avail. Why? because they went bang every time we pulled the trigger. I personally pulled AK's out of an irrigation ditch from a 3 year old cache, opened the top, turned it over dumped the mud out of it, locked, loaded, fired. NO M16 could do that. They fire a heavier cartridge and will do so anywhere anytime. For a range weapon sure M16 looks cool, shoots pretty straight and, well, that's about it. I can get 1 MOA out of my '74 with irons, and not worry about dragging it through mud, rain, sand, dust, snow, heat, sleet, slush, etc...

For your generation the M16 represented an advancement of technology from old wooden rifles. Not sure about how old you are exactly but older generations were raised with the mentality that the only stuff the Russians did well was copy the west-which has since been confirmed as blatantly false. Our stuff may have flashing lights and pretty displays, but russian equipment for the most part simply works, period. My generation has the luxury of hindsight. While the US is looking for a replacement for the M16, the AK series is still running strong and in no danger of being replaced in more than half the worlds countries. The AK series has proved to be a simpler, more reliable and battle proven weapon system. It is the standard by which others are judged, hell its even on national flags.

I understand where your opinions come from, but I think your wrong.

Sorry OP, not meant to hijack.

time-warp....its like listening to myself 20+ years ago.

Thank you for your service.

I too carried the M16, which was the reason I too didnt want to own one.

But just as I didnt think back then, you are not thinking now.
The AR15 platform offers everything, while other firearms offer little.

You have to weigh the whole of your situation and decide on what works best in the most set of variables.

The OP stated, Tactical...which means he is thinking about fighting off hordes of zombies, looters or whatever.

To simply discount the AR15 due to one variation of it (bb equiped fixed mag) is foolish enough, but to say you must own a Monte Carlo AK style longarm over a AR15 featureless is complete nonsense.

Lets exchange e-mails. Lets make a bet. I bet you $1000.00 I will never face hordes of zombies breaking into my home, or looters, or whatever.. where I had no time to plan, and didn't modify my AR15. Lets make if for 10 years...ok you good with that?

If within 10 years we both wake up to find planet Tantoween has invaded the USA and in one onslaught night gave me no chance to change my AR15 bb, I promise I will have some one send you $1000.00....

but in those same 10 years if both of us use our firearms for range work, hunting, plinking,...if I find hundreds of vendors offering thousands of parts, up grades kits and modifications..if I easily swap calibers, back and forth, barrels lengths from 16" to 24" and still have a combat proven weapon...you owe me $1000.00

is it a deal?

C.W.M.V.
05-21-2010, 2:57 PM
time-warp....its like listening to myself 20+ years ago.

Thank you for your service.

I too carried the M16, which was the reason I too didnt want to own one.

But just as I didnt think back then, you are not thinking now.
The AR15 platform offers everything, while other firearms offer little.

You have to weigh the whole of your situation and decide on what works best in the most set of variables.

The OP stated, Tactical...which means he is thinking about fighting off hordes of zombies, looters or whatever.

To simply discount the AR15 due to one variation of it (bb equiped fixed mag) is foolish enough, but to say you must own a Monte Carlo AK style longarm over a AR15 featureless is complete nonsense.

Lets exchange e-mails. Lets make a bet. I bet you $1000.00 I will never face hordes of zombies breaking into my home, or looters, or whatever.. where I had no time to plan, and didn't modify my AR15. Lets make if for 10 years...ok you good with that?

If within 10 years we both wake up to find planet Tantoween has invaded the USA and in one onslaught night gave me no chance to change my AR15 bb, I promise I will have some one send you $1000.00....

but in those same 10 years if both of us use our firearms for range work, hunting, plinking,...if I find hundreds of vendors offering thousands of parts, up grades kits and modifications..if I easily swap calibers, back and forth, barrels lengths from 16" to 24" and still have a combat proven weapon...you owe me $1000.00

is it a deal?

:cool: PM sent!

1988
05-21-2010, 4:43 PM
Featureless AR15 for accuracy

Saiga 223 for AK reliability

SU-16 for light weight and compactness.

You can't have them all in one rifle.

jvpark
05-21-2010, 4:46 PM
Ket tec's are great AR options... they shoot very well you will not be disappointed

RaceDay
05-21-2010, 8:58 PM
Just get the AR. Bullet button is not that big of a deal. I own a Kel-Tec and its cool that it can shoot pre-ban mags but I'd rather take the AR to the range. Like dieselpower says, buy the gun which lets you have the most fun shooting it. You can accessorize the AR every which way. I'm not worried about zombies or aliens or gang warfare or other such nonsense; so being "slowed down" by the bullet button is no biggie. But having a pistol grip and option for forward grip makes shooting feel more comfortable than using a Monte Carlo stock.

GM_77
05-21-2010, 9:02 PM
http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg
M1 Carbine is pretty good.

If you have pre-bans the only answer is a featureless AR though. Your mileage will not vary.

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPga_story28B_544.jpg

Or SOCOM II

dieselpower
05-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Featureless AR15 for accuracy

Saiga 223 for AK reliability

SU-16 for light weight and compactness.

You can't have them all in one rifle.

20" upper for accuracy....(whats featureless have to do with it??)

Quality parts for reliability...(not e-bay)

16" A2 upper HBAR 5.56
16" A3 upper folding BUIS 9mm
16" A4 upper Fixed forward, folding read BUIS .223
18" A4 upper Fixed forward, folding read BUIS 6.8
20" A2 upper pencil fixed BUIS .22lr
20" A2 upper fixed BUIS 7.62
20" dissipator upper 5.56

One OLL
One Bullet button, and one normal mag release
One pistol grip and one MMG
One Mil-spec M4 collapsing stock and one A2 stock

...yes, you can have it all with one rifle


....thats the point of buying an AR15 over any other rifle.

Cali-V
05-22-2010, 9:07 AM
Very Cool....

http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg
M1 Carbine is pretty good.

If you have pre-bans the only answer is a featureless AR though. Your mileage will not vary.

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPga_story28B_544.jpg

Or SOCOM II

1911su16b870
05-22-2010, 10:51 AM
IMO a "working" firearm has to have a detachable magazine. Working means for defense or duty. So currently in CA that means either you get a AW registration or you have a featureless rifle (no pistol grip, fixed stock and muzzle break/no flash hider). Your 223/5.56 options are many...

1. Monsterman AR grip with fixed stock and muzzle break. I run an ambi selector on this.
2. Ruger mini-14
3. Keltec SU16
4. Saiga
5. If you want 308 then go M1A/SOCOM etc.

Every single item above can be customized with aftermarket accessories that only depend on your imagination and will power to make the rifle your "dream machine".

C_1
05-22-2010, 11:27 AM
Mission dictates gear. So it really depends on what the OP wants to do with his "AR alternative."

Kel Tec SU16: I dont think its on the same "playing field" as a good AR, Mini 14/30, or Saiga/AK. Its a decent gun, that folds and takes AR mags, but it wouldn't be my go to gun. Again, it really depends on what he's going to be using it for.

You can't really go wrong with a Mini 14 or 30. Traditional style stock, with no evil features, and detachable mags; lots of people love theirs.

For an all around rifle, thats fairly cheap, reliable, and accurate enough, I would suggest a Saiga 7.62x39. You can leave it as is, so you get detachable mags, and have some 30rd Surefire rebuild kits on stand-by, for those "just in case" times. Or you can add a bullet guide and file the mag catch to take your preban AK mags but you run into 922r US compliance parts issues. Then mind as well convert it to take a standard AK stock and use a MMG or Sol Tac kydex grip wrap.

But you shouldn't discount the AR because of the BB. You can go featureless (no pistol grip, folding/collapsible stock, flash hider, or forward vertical grip) with the MMG, Sol Tac kydex grip wrap, Exile Machine HH, and a fixed stock; or ToolBox's U15 stock.

Lots of options with an AK and AR. Just depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend.

Get both or all 3-4 :)

Paratus et Vigilans
05-22-2010, 1:04 PM
Always interesting to read the posts of all the keyboard commandos who have visions of taking on dozens of shock troops stoming their front doors. Bodies piling up in the doorway. Empty mags littering the living room floor. Brass flying everywhere. Rivers of blood forming waterfalls on the front steps. :rolleyes:

Honestly.

If you need more than 10 rounds of .223 to defend your front door, you aren't going to survive the encounter anyway. You're either the world's worst shot or have more enemies than any normal person should have. A single center mass hit with a .223 from across your living room is going to do enormous tissue damage to an intruder at your door, and will probably go on to wound the guy right behind the lead. The noise from a shot or two fired indoors from an M4gery will be enormous and disorienting to any bad guys left standing. Do you really think that the next twenty will keep storming the door after you drop the first one or two? You won't even need the whole 10 round mag to prevail in the fight, but even if you do, with a little practice, changing mags on a BB equipped AR goes as fast as you're ever likely to need. Ever. Seriously. WTF. Get real.

That being said, the OP wanted to know what alternatives are there to the AR platform in California to avoid all AW issues. My advice is to go with any one of the various flavors of the M1A, or get a Garand. Plenty of firepower, no headaches. (BTW, it takes longer to change mags in an M1A or to feed a new en bloc clip into a Garand than it does to do a mag change on a BB'ed AR. Food for thought. :))

RaceDay
05-22-2010, 1:38 PM
IMO a "working" firearm has to have a detachable magazine. Working means for defense or duty. So currently in CA that means either you get a AW registration or you have a featureless rifle (no pistol grip, fixed stock and muzzle break/no flash hider). Your 223/5.56 options are many...

1. Monsterman AR grip with fixed stock and muzzle break. I run an ambi selector on this.
2. Ruger mini-14
3. Keltec SU16
4. Saiga
5. If you want 308 then go M1A/SOCOM etc.

Every single item above can be customized with aftermarket accessories that only depend on your imagination and will power to make the rifle your "dream machine".

What kind of "working" firearm do you need? If you are on duty, then you get full-sized mags and don't need to put up with any mag lock BS. The LEO's aren't hamstrung. We are talking about something for going to the range and, if needed, for home defense.

Customize the 4 listed .223-cal options to your hearts content but you cannot have a pistol grip or you can go to jail. Cannot have a collapsible stock or you can go to jail. Need to take the A2 flash hider off before you go featureless or you can go to jail. Cannot put the thumbhole stock on a rifle either, or else you might go to jail... Get the picture, yet? All the really cool stuff needs some sort of mag lock. I own a featureless AR, Saiga, KelTec, and BB AR. The BB AR gets shot more than the other 3 combined.

+1 to PeV with his explanation of why 10 rounds will be enough. A few shots out of an M4 in a closed area and people are going to want to go in the opposite direction.

BB can be permanently removed later when you move out of state. And I found this (http://www.riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx) which lets you temporarily defeat bullet button when you are out of state.

Donk310
05-22-2010, 1:56 PM
You guys are missing the darn point here....

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE FIGHTING ZOMBIES
YOU ARE NOT A SEAL OPERATOR FIGHTING THE TALABAN
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE IN A SHTF SITUATION WHERE A DOZEN AK47 ARMED TERRORIST ARE ATTACKING YOUR HOME...

GROW UP.

The AR15 is the best long-arm platform made to date...period, end of story. There is no other firearm in the world that can do what it can do. It is user configured for THOUSANDS of different applications.

When the day comes where your video game, Hollywood movie fantasy comes true...just remove the BB, until that time start acting like and thinking like a rational person.

Thank you. Well put!! +1

tombinghamthegreat
05-22-2010, 2:57 PM
The saiga gets my vote. They come in .223, 7.62x39, 308, 30-06, and 12 20 410 gauge. The the 7.62 with some simple conversions can accept AK mags and the .223 with some conversions can accept AR mags (assuming it is 922 r complaint)

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/sealofawesomeness/Picture158.jpg
this is mine

Paratus et Vigilans
05-22-2010, 2:57 PM
Say next week Rick Perry and the Texas Militia saddle up, ride out, capture Sacramento and claim California under Texas rule. Perry proclaims all CA law instantly nullified and void; Texas law applies statewide immediately.

Will you keep your 10 rounder and BB? Or will you put together and load up those 30 round rebuild kits and toss the BB?

What you "need" and what you'd like to have are rarely the same thing. That being said, my point was that even with the restrictions we have on the AR here, it's still plenty of weapon to get the job done, as long as you do your part as a marksman. Spray and pray is no substitute for proper shot placement, and I'd rather trust my life to skill than to luck.

kemper
05-22-2010, 3:00 PM
i would rather have a mini 14 with a hunting stock then a mall ninja AR. cause look if you get a AR to plink then cool, but as soon as you use a BB rifle as a defensive weapon you are out of your mind.

absolutely, thats why i'll go with mini or keltec :hammer:

C.W.M.V.
05-22-2010, 3:41 PM
What you "need" and what you'd like to have are rarely the same thing. That being said, my point was that even with the restrictions we have on the AR here, it's still plenty of weapon to get the job done, as long as you do your part as a marksman. Spray and pray is no substitute for proper shot placement, and I'd rather trust my life to skill than to luck.

Similar argument was used by US Army brass to justify fielding the 3 round Krag-Jorgensen (sp?) in the spanish-American war, which turned out to be a dismal failure compared to the 5 round spanish Mauser's. Soon thereafter Krag was replaced by larger capacity mag rifle.
I don't know how many 50 meter firefights you've been in, maybe none maybe a lot, but I never really remember taking slow aimed shots at that distance, thank god I had a 30rnd mag, and Ma' Deuce. Fire superiority is king. Doesn't mean closing your eyes and hoping you hit your target, but slow well aimed fire is suicide. front sight post on the dude and pulling the trigger pretty damn quick worked for me.

Again though this thread has gotten out of hand!
If you want an 16 then a bullet button isn't that big of a deal, especially on a 16. They lend themselves to a bullet button tool much better than an AK, and the designs that are out there make it a breeze to change quickly.

Other options have been presented for the OP to consider, OP, have fun.
Ive posted my opinion on the AK/16 debate so I wont do it again here, but damn people be realistic. If you want a range gun that looks cool and puts a big dent in the wallet then go get the 16, if you want a rifle that will perform as designed then go get one of the other options listed in the thread.

And who the hell are any of us to try to tell the OP what he should or shouldn't think, or how practical he needs to be or that hes wrong? Its their money to do with as they wish. If they want a Zombie gun, cool! More power to you! If you want to be an urban commando, Kudos! Lets see your costume when your done! You don't need a reason, or reason at all, to justify getting a gun you like for your own reasons.

Shame on anyone that would try to convince the OP of his "mistake" or "flawed logic" in order to push their own opinion of whats best or right, if Ive done it well then shame on me too-it was not my intention.

OP I hope by now you have some options for consideration and post up pics of whatever you end up getting.

end rant. :)

Paratus et Vigilans
05-22-2010, 9:18 PM
I don't know how many 50 meter firefights you've been in, maybe none maybe a lot, but I never really remember taking slow aimed shots at that distance, thank god I had a 30rnd mag, and Ma' Deuce. Fire superiority is king. Doesn't mean closing your eyes and hoping you hit your target, but slow well aimed fire is suicide. front sight post on the dude and pulling the trigger pretty damn quick worked for me.

I've been in exactly zero 50 meter firefights, and I don't for a second doubt that what you're saying is true when in a 50 meter firefight against any number of enemy combatants, but unless I'm grossly mistaken, the OP's friend is looking for a "tactical" weapon for use in California. Outside of having fun with it at the range, or shooting it in a 3-gun match, its only other likely use is going to be defending his home. We're talking 3-4 meters at most facing one to two intruders coming through a door or window. Thus, my opinion, FWIW, is that a couple of .223 rounds fired from an AR into the center mass of each intruder at across-the-room distance will be plenty of firepower to win that engagement, which will be over before he uses up his 10 round mag of ammo. A 30 round mag dump in your home seems to me to be both overkill as well as extremely dangerous for your neighbors and for others in your home. I hope I never need to test out my opinion (BTW, my home defense weapon of choice is my FN SLP 12 gauge), but if I ever do wind up turning to my M4gery for home defense, you'll either get my glowing after action report here or you can read about how it all went horribly wrong for me when the morning paper comes. :)

SJgunguy24
05-22-2010, 9:39 PM
The thing is that any rifle liky that with a detachable magazine will have to have a bullet button. I personally went with a Saiga, in stoch form its a sporter and dosent need a BB and converted with a mm pistol grip its good to go without the BB, but that's true of ar's too. Have you checked the flowchart?

There are ways to modify standard gear and be 100% compliant and featureless.
My AR has a fin that I shaped and offset, couple that with my ambi selector and my 30's and I'm good.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/003-12.jpg


My Saiga 7.62, I like the MMG on this, very comfortable and she points naturally. This is my fighting gun and i'll trust my family's safety to her, Also with the HK sights I'm good out past 500 yards, no BS.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/001-3.jpg

killshot44
05-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Dat NY dude was a troll............

Dragunov
05-23-2010, 8:18 AM
Your actually gonna put someone down when they want a rifle that functions as it should?

It blows my mind that people buy an AR and strap on all the tacticool features and lock the mag to feel like Delta Force or a Ranger with their buddies.

Maybe, but for most of us I believe that we feel the AR is designed to be fired properly with a pistol grip. A bullet button makes good sense to me as it can be adjusted to function normally or you can re-install the factory mag release in under two minutes for "out-of-state" shooting. I don't like "featureless" builds myself as they feel "wierd" to me. A lot of time and money was spent (wisely, for a change) by our gov't to fine tune the ergonomics of this fine rifle for optimal accuracy and comfort. It is best used in the original configuration, even if it means a BB for us commiefornians.

usmcchet9296
05-23-2010, 8:47 AM
Im just going to say it and I could care less what people think. The AR platform is by far the best rifle out there. It is accurate and highly customizable. The AK is a cheap crude POS whose only quality is its so cheap and loosely made it tends not to have many feeding problems. Unless you intend to join some insurgancy in some third world craphole I would go with the AR.

Donk310
05-23-2010, 9:30 AM
Maybe, but for most of us I believe that we feel the AR is designed to be fired properly with a pistol grip. A bullet button makes good sense to me as it can be adjusted to function normally or you can re-install the factory mag release in under two minutes for "out-of-state" shooting. I don't like "featureless" builds myself as they feel "wierd" to me. A lot of time and money was spent (wisely, for a change) by our gov't to fine tune the ergonomics of this fine rifle for optimal accuracy and comfort. It is best used in the original configuration, even if it means a BB for us commiefornians.

You're not alone buddy. Count me out on that featureless stuff. It's just way not sexy (to me). Some say go featureless and drop the mag as intended.. I say go bullet button and grip the rifle like it was intended. ... thats just me though.

Fot
05-23-2010, 10:04 AM
If you have a proper set up on your BB Ar you can drop mags just about as fast as you can with a mini 14 without a maglock.

I am curious though.. when you hear that bump in the night and grab your Mini 14, where do you put all the extra mags you seem to need? In your boxers?

3321sawyer
05-23-2010, 4:13 PM
I have a newer model mini-14 in stainless steel and I'm very happy with it. The only problem I had a few years back was no reliable 10-round magazine available. Now that there are factory 10-rd magazines; I don't feel inadequate with it.
Also, Saiga rifles are my new favorites now. I went shooting today with my new Saiga .308 and I'm very happy with it.

vintagearms
05-23-2010, 5:06 PM
I have successfully competed in LEO ONLY rifle qualifications with my NON-duty featureless build (frankengun RRA/LaRue/Noveske) with SolarTactical grip and can say that personally I wouldn't want to use just 10 round mags. Why give in to the anti's???

IW378
05-23-2010, 5:50 PM
So I've been helping a cousin of mine who lives out in Cali research the firearm laws out there so he can make his own purchase. Originally he wanted to go with an Ar, but, hes not in love with the idea of having a bb on his rifle. I was wondering what some other decent tactical rifle options were. What are peoples opinions of the Kel tec SU-16 range of rifles or saiga's? Mini 14, 30 etc, are they cali legal? How do they compare?
Your cousin should go to a range that rents rifles or meet some people that would let him shoot some of theirs so he can get a feel for what he likes. :beatdeadhorse5:

Daniel Bartolo
05-23-2010, 9:41 PM
Dltd

1911su16b870
05-24-2010, 8:42 AM
What kind of "working" firearm do you need? If you are on duty, then you get full-sized mags and don't need to put up with any mag lock BS. The LEO's aren't hamstrung. We are talking about something for going to the range and, if needed, for home defense.

Customize the 4 listed .223-cal options to your hearts content but you cannot have a pistol grip or you can go to jail. Cannot have a collapsible stock or you can go to jail. Need to take the A2 flash hider off before you go featureless or you can go to jail. Cannot put the thumbhole stock on a rifle either, or else you might go to jail... Get the picture, yet? All the really cool stuff needs some sort of mag lock. I own a featureless AR, Saiga, KelTec, and BB AR. The BB AR gets shot more than the other 3 combined.

+1 to PeV with his explanation of why 10 rounds will be enough. A few shots out of an M4 in a closed area and people are going to want to go in the opposite direction.

BB can be permanently removed later when you move out of state. And I found this (http://www.riflegear.com/p-489-bullet-button-wrench.aspx) which lets you temporarily defeat bullet button when you are out of state.

You've made your choice that a pistol grip is more important than a detachable magazine.

As I've stated a detachable magazine is more important to me than a pistol grip for a defensive carbine.

I can use my preban magazines in any of my non-pistol grip (featureless) carbines, so I am not limited to 10 rounds prior to using said carbine as a club. No one knows how many rounds will be needed to end a gun fight, there are too many variables (number and motivation of adversaries).

I own BB ARs and enjoy them greatly, but IMO they are toys and I will not rely on them for defensive purposes without prior mag lock modification. For defensive use, its detachable magazine for me.

Alot of folks train and use the magazine stud for bullet button activation and mag changes and more power to them for training with what they use. That is their choice and again more power to them for walking the walk after talking the talk. For me I've chosen the detachable magazine and feature less for my go to carbine.

Lastly not all CA LE agencies issue patrol rifles and 30 round magazines, so many cops are just like calgunners in their use of bullet buttons or featureless AR builds.

ZombieTactics
05-24-2010, 9:31 AM
I have a difficult time imagining any realistic home defense situation which can't be addressed with a Mossberg 930SPX or 590A1, backed up by any one of the various handguns in quick-access locations around the house.

If you really need lots of .223/5.56 to solve the problem ... well, I think a Mini-14 or SU-16CA is your friend.

RealBarber
05-24-2010, 10:07 AM
of the ones you mentioned I would go with a saiga

the mini 14 is a good rifle too though

RealBarber
05-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Look guy-I have nothing but respect for my elders and any veteran is a firend of mine, but that being said...where exactly do you get your crack?

I appreciate your story but here's my counter. I carried an M16/M4 type for a total of nearly 3 years in Iraq, doing my 11 series thing (daily patrols Baghdad, Fallujah, Babbel, Baghdad again, and Baquaba), and I HATE THE DAMN THING! You talk about "the best long arm platform made to date", by which measure? If your talking to an Infantryman in Iraq today the biggest factor is reliability-and the ol' AK has M16 beaten black and blue in that regard. We even tried to ditch our M16/M4's in favor of carrying captured AK's to no avail. Why? because they went bang every time we pulled the trigger. I personally pulled AK's out of an irrigation ditch from a 3 year old cache, opened the top, turned it over dumped the mud out of it, locked, loaded, fired. NO M16 could do that. They fire a heavier cartridge and will do so anywhere anytime. For a range weapon sure M16 looks cool, shoots pretty straight and, well, that's about it. I can get 1 MOA out of my '74 with irons, and not worry about dragging it through mud, rain, sand, dust, snow, heat, sleet, slush, etc...

For your generation the M16 represented an advancement of technology from old wooden rifles. Not sure about how old you are exactly but older generations were raised with the mentality that the only stuff the Russians did well was copy the west-which has since been confirmed as blatantly false. Our stuff may have flashing lights and pretty displays, but russian equipment for the most part simply works, period. My generation has the luxury of hindsight. While the US is looking for a replacement for the M16, the AK series is still running strong and in no danger of being replaced in more than half the worlds countries. The AK series has proved to be a simpler, more reliable and battle proven weapon system. It is the standard by which others are judged, hell its even on national flags.

I understand where your opinions come from, but I think your wrong.

Sorry OP, not meant to hijack.

i agree

thats when i hear that "commie gun" bull i just roll my eyes

Killawhale415
05-24-2010, 1:38 PM
so lets sum this all up...

The saiga with a monte carlo stock is better then an AR15 with hammerhead, MMG or Solar grip...roger that.

The Mini-14 has hundreds of calibers available and can be changed with tool easily found at most stores....roger that

The Kel Tec is serviced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors offering everything you can possibly imagine or need...roger that

The M1A doesnt need to follow the AW flow chart, so you can add any feature you want to make it a "tactical" firearm as the OP stated.....roger that.

The AR15 is a useless firearm pron to constant failure and is totally inaccurate for anything other then range work. The FACT you can not modify one for featureless or fixed magazine is a draw back to the design, Once the BB is installed you are done..it can never be changed again..............roger that

yeah, I now agree, the Mini14 / kal-tec or SKS is a way better long arm then a AR15..

/thread

Just take deep breath dude....

usmcchet9296
05-24-2010, 3:18 PM
Im so glad I own a legally registered pre-ban AW and now can set it up any way I want to and not have to worry about grips, stocks, or bullet buttons. Getting back to the topic you want a home defence gun buy a shotgun then buy an AR take it to the range and have fun because really that about all it will ever be used for anyway..... well at least till the Umbrella Corperation takes over and Milla Jovovich starts running around all half nekkid and sh-it.

vintagedude88
05-24-2010, 7:26 PM
Please read the OP again. He stated, "tactical". Unless the word has since changed meaning in the last few hours, I stand by my opinion.

I will try again here for all the young guys and old guys alike. I am hoping to pass on a bitter sweet lesson I learned.

25 years I re-enlisted and draw orders to California from the east coast. I wanted to add to my gun collection. All my buddies told me to get an AR15. I scoffed at them for a ton of reasons. I picked myself up a great long-arm a M1A. I wanted a battle rifle, a known good work horse for combat.

Several years later I found myself wanting something smaller, lighter, easier to work on myself, something "tactical". Again my friends told me to get an AR. I once again scoffed at them. I picked up an HK-94 with fake can to hide the 16" barrel. Its was a great firearm, but I was not satisfied with the 9mm.

I then bought a M17s, over the very vocal objections from my AR15 friends. I had truly bought into all the BS about invasion from space aliens and completely ignored the logical mans thought.

In the next few years I was shooting more and more with my friends. It was slowly dawning on me what they were talking about. The firearm was everything I wanted in all the firearms I owned...all in one weapon.

This was about the time the Internet was coming into its own (56K dial up...LOL). I had a permanent loaned AR15 in my house with several uppers to choose from. For at least 2 years my other firearms, (which were great longarms) collected dust, while time and time again I went shooting with the AR15.

Jump to 1998ish, the AG leaked the new California anti-AW ban was coming...I scrambled to buy an AR15, the first of many to follow, Turners in Riverside had a huge selection. (I also bought a rare snake from that reptile store next door IIRC...lol).

I realize you can not open a "Field & Stream" or "Woman's home daily" magazine without seeing some advertisement on AR15s or AR15 parts for sale. I know its annoying and we have urge to reject the "follow the crowd" mentality. But the firearms are popular for a reason.

If you ignore the AR15, simply because of a BB or weird stock/grip you are sadly being a nuub. You are ignoring everything the AR15 brings to your list of PROs, because of 1 CON that can be easily dealt with if needed.

Young guys want to buck the system because the old farts are "the establishment" and you can't side with anyone over 30. The Old guys long for the years since gone. they both make the sad and terrible mistake of NOT buying an AR15.

Don't be stupid here. All the other firearms you can name have a place in your life AFTER you buy an AR15.

I have one HUGE CON about an AR. Its about twice or three times the price of my Saiga.


Don't tell me that an AR is twice or three times more reliable than the Saiga because its NOT!

Don't tell me its twice or three times more durable than a Saiga because its NOT!

Don't tell me its easier to use and field strip than the Saiga because its NOT!


You are extemely biased and sadly mistaken.

1911su16b870
05-24-2010, 8:41 PM
Many folks think the AR is twice to three times tacti-cooler than the Saiga :D :rofl:

Cali-V
05-24-2010, 8:55 PM
Yeah but how expensive is it to tactical-ize your Saiga. Try going to say 50 beowulf or 6.8 rem... or try free floating your barrel... or upgrading your trigger to match grade...

Any of the above if even possible will cost you dearly on an AK based platform...

You may spend a little more on the AR but you get a helluva lot more in terms of options and flexibility.

Also we tend to forget that 99.9% of us, 99% of the time, use our AK's and AR's as toys not life saving tools... I would say the factors you mentioned are the primary reason I have a 870 and G17 next to my bed...

Call me weird, but I very rarely sleep next to my ARs or AKs...



I have one HUGE CON about an AR. Its about twice or three times the price of my Saiga.


Don't tell me that an AR is twice or three times more reliable than the Saiga because its NOT!
Don't tell me its twice or three times more durable than a Saiga because its NOT!
Don't tell me its easier to use and field strip than the Saiga because its NOT!


You are extemely biased and sadly mistaken.

vintagedude88
05-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Yeah but how expensive is it to tactical-ize your Saiga. Try going to say 50 beowulf or 6.8 rem... or try free floating your barrel... or upgrading your trigger to match grade...

Any of the above if even possible will cost you dearly on an AK based platform...

You may spend a little more on the AR but you get a helluva lot more in terms of options and flexibility.

Also we tend to forget that 99.9% of us, 99% of the time, use our AK's and AR's as toys not life saving tools... I would say the factors you mentioned are the primary reason I have a 870 and G17 next to my bed...

Call me weird, but I very rarely sleep next to my ARs or AKs...

You've got to be kidding me right?:confused: If those uppers are a couple of hundred bucks each with ten dollar mags, you're argument might stick.:rolleyes: However uppers for an AR are anywhere from $500 to $1500. Especially for those calibers you mentioned, they're at least $800 to $1500 if you want a "pistoned" upper. For that money, I can get an entire gun. Why would I want to pay that much for parts and pieces which I have to disassemble and reassemble just to shoot a different round when I can just pick up another gun to do that instead?

And another thing, .50 Beowulf, 6.8 SPC??? If I want to shoot exotic ammo like that I would get gun specifically for that purpose, especially if it is to be match grade. But then again why? Really too many choices just adds to the confusion. How many different types of ammo can you keep up with in maintaining stock given today's "anti-gun" climate? For me its just 5.56, 7.62X39, and 7.62 NATO. Anything more than that is beyond my capacity and budget to keep track of. If you have that kind of budget to have all the different flavors of rifle rounds on hand then good for you but not everyone can own a gun store.:cool: