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shopkeep
03-14-2006, 9:33 PM
So who's talked/written the DOJ recently? We've kinda lost touch with 'em since the February 1st memo. Has there been anything even remotely reliable comming out of the DOJ regarding the off-list lower situation?

I'm starting to really believe they may actually be working in league with the Legislature to get something through. At the very least they'll be shutting down AB 2131 in the meantime but we'll make 'em look like fools anyways :D!

socalguns
03-14-2006, 11:50 PM
I would think if there was anything,
someone would've already started up a thread
(no shortage of FUD)

EBWhite
03-15-2006, 12:38 AM
I think they sent out those first memos as a scare tactic. There will be no update of the list. They will be working with the democraps and getting a detach mag ban...

kantstudien
03-15-2006, 12:50 AM
Lockyer appeared to me in a vision and said "Go thou and buy lowers no more!"

metalhead357
03-15-2006, 12:50 AM
I think they sent out those first memos as a scare tactic. There will be no update of the list. They will be working with the democraps and getting a detach mag ban...

Now wouldnt it just be right up the politicals alley and some sort of karmic justice that in thier attempt to ban mags....they just friggin banned THEMSELVES?????


FWIW.... I heard the list WAS coming out in about TWO WEEKS.....that was about 10 weeks go.....................:D

FWIW--- its aint impossible, but for DOJ...for DOJ to find and collaborate with a UNrespectable enough- and yet has enough weight to throw around libtard to sponser something would be a feat in itself. Couple this with the FACT that America STILL IS AT WAR in Afghanistan, the Fed AWB demised and everybody 'round the other 49 states aint killed off each other yet, AND the DOJ SEVERELY botched things by not doing thier "duty" to update the list over the last 5 to 6 years thereby allowing the public to "subjected" to all us and out legal lowers, the ability to do something like this................
well, HECKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK this IS california!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better buy more mags NOWWWWWWWWWWWW! The Ban is coming the ban is Coming!!!!

xenophobe
03-15-2006, 1:07 AM
Well, I called the DOJ earlier today... I had a few questions about HSC exemptions... then I asked about off list lowers.... the phone got silent. I asked if he was still there and then heard some whispering and he said "yes". I asked him when they were going to list... I heard a few things drop and a scuffle and an incredibly loud burst of laughter. It didn't stop for a few minutes so I hug up.

shopkeep
03-15-2006, 1:18 AM
Well, I called the DOJ earlier today... I had a few questions about HSC exemptions... then I asked about off list lowers.... the phone got silent. I asked if he was still there and then heard some whispering and he said "yes". I asked him when they were going to list... I heard a few things drop and a scuffle and an incredibly loud burst of laughter. It didn't stop for a few minutes so I hug up.

I think that at this point the DOJ knows they got OWNED HARD by a couple of guys online. Funny when you think about it really that a couple of people who had never met before knew the law better than those who were supposed to be enforcing it. Whether they list or not at least our revenge is assured when Bill's website and campaign get off the ground.

metalhead357
03-15-2006, 1:18 AM
I asked him when they were going to list... I heard a few things drop and a scuffle and an incredibly loud burst of laughter. It didn't stop for a few minutes so I hug up.

Yea, even the DOJ peeps gotta wait for them welfare checks...whoops I mean Paychecks! THEY Gotta have a chance to stock up on some for themselves too now;) Think any of the FFL's will give 'em a DOJ Discount on an off lister?????

shopkeep
03-15-2006, 1:25 AM
Yea, even the DOJ peeps gotta wait for them welfare checks...whoops I mean Paychecks! THEY Gotta have a chance to stock up on some for themselves too now;) Think any of the FFL's will give 'em a DOJ Discount on an off lister?????

I've talked to a couple of FFLs who have done transfers and sales of lowers for DOJ employees. The simple fact is that there is intense legitimate interest in these firearms in the state. Banning them has made them EXTREMELY attractive to both collectors and the average resident as well. Heck I remember seeing at least two posts on the forum made by people who's first gun was an offlist rifle.

EBWhite
03-15-2006, 2:01 AM
Was the laughing on the phone deal a joke or were you serious?

6172crew
03-15-2006, 6:19 AM
I have a feeling a list is coming out but not sure if they are going to try the ol Cat4 list or just add them like the law intended.

Its like watching grass grow.:mad:

Alphahookups
03-15-2006, 7:24 AM
:mad: I see serious problems with them making a cat 4. I mean its utterly unfair to the lowers that would go on the list. How can you have an approved lower like the Vulcan or carbon 15 and then turn around and say, "Well those lowers are ok, but we are going to ban ones just like them and prevent you from making an Assault Weapon"...WTF... its already illegal to make an assault weapon.

Its not illegal to have potential to do something, its illegal when you do something and they are trying to ban the potential to make an AW which is just plain ludicrous.

Its not illegal to own a car that can go 100 miles per hour, but it is illegal to drive 100. Maybe they should ban cars too....Scratch that, I bet they would if they could...

Justang
03-15-2006, 7:30 AM
This list will only be for the AK/AR's right?
I'm fighting to get a couple more HK clones. But don't want to run out of time.

sac7000
03-15-2006, 7:43 AM
:mad: I see serious problems with them making a cat 4. I mean its utterly unfair to the lowers that would go on the list. How can you have an approved lower like the Vulcan or carbon 15 and then turn around and say, "Well those lowers are ok, but we are going to ban ones just like them and prevent you from making an Assault Weapon"...WTF... its already illegal to make an assault weapon.



I wish I was fly on the wall next to the coffee machine at DOJ HQ. Hmmm... www.supercircuits.com has some very small video and listening devices......hint hint

Alphahookups
03-15-2006, 8:26 AM
haha, there are some pretty small camera's.

How do we get HK clone receivers... I want one of those if they arent too much

filefish
03-15-2006, 8:32 AM
I wish I was fly on the wall next to the coffee machine at DOJ HQ. Hmmm... www.supercircuits.com has some very small video and listening devices......hint hint


I realy do not think that they are all than conserned with us having our rifles. beleive it or not they do a lot more than monitor lower recievers around there

bwiese
03-15-2006, 9:06 AM
This list will only be for the AK/AR's right?
I'm fighting to get a couple more HK clones. But don't want to run out of time.

Well, they could do a buncha stuff at once... But DOJ can update AR/AK list themselves without anyone else intervening. (They just give the list to the Secretary of State, who updates CCR 979.11 10 days later.)

All other stuff to be banned must go thru PC 12276.5 add-on petitions in certain superior courts.

kantstudien
03-15-2006, 9:48 AM
Instead of building up their load for a one-time all encompassing shot, you would think they would get their heads out of their butts and simply update with whatever list they got, and then do a weekly update as they find new receivers. How freakin' hard is that to figure out? :rolleyes:

snobordr
03-15-2006, 10:03 AM
Was the laughing on the phone deal a joke or were you serious?


Has to be a joke, government employees are required to have their sense of humor surgically removed as terms of employment.

xenophobe
03-15-2006, 10:09 AM
Yes, I was just joking. lol

glen avon
03-15-2006, 10:27 AM
that assumes they share your analysis.

they could have something else altogether different in mind, and we should all remember that.

6172crew
03-15-2006, 10:34 AM
Do tell. I have a few buddies near the center of all this and none of them know anything.

that assumes they share your analysis.

they could have something else altogether different in mind.

phobos512
03-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Has to be a joke, government employees are required to have their sense of humor surgically removed as terms of employment.

I think that would depend on the level of government and the level of employment. For a DMV desk worker, it's true. For those of us who are weapons designers / support engineers for the Federal Government (DON for me in particular), I'd say, if we couldn't retain a sense of humor we'd lose our minds.

glen avon
03-15-2006, 11:04 AM
Yes, but their options are relatively limited....

you are still thinking within your own box. you might be right, you might be wrong. it is highly unlikely anybody has this whole thing figured out on all sides.

if anything, they have our side figured out thanks to all the discussion here, and they have their own strategies which they have not divulged.

yes of course artherd's and your many attorneys on retainer have been working with you all in private, but there is still an imbalance in information tilting decidedly in the State's favor.

we are not serving our cause well by being complacent or proud.

bg
03-15-2006, 11:35 AM
Id be willing to say they are holding off so they can use this
to promote things they have "went after" right
before the elections. I don't know who is going to run
for the AG job, as I believe Lockyer wants to be the treasurer..

Never know with these folks. You know they could use the
Milpitas situation, spin it to fit their mantra and portray
it as a big time stop on so called "deadly assault" weapons
due to a "mistaken" ruling by a judge here in Ca. At
the same time show a new list proving they are "doing"
their jobs to stop crime.

They've got a taste of power, and now they're all hungry.
[and I'm going to kick myself in the 6, if I gave em
any ideas]

Alphahookups
03-15-2006, 11:40 AM
but there is still an imbalance in information tilting decidedly in the State's favor.


What information is in the State's favor?

Im not sure anything is certain now on either side and I think either way the state has a tough decision coming up.

PanzerAce
03-15-2006, 11:48 AM
you are still thinking within your own box.


I think bill's box had the walls blown out awhile ago :D

glen avon
03-15-2006, 11:49 AM
What information is in the State's favor?

all the information they have collected about what we are doing. we have been discussing this openly on the internet, right in front of them. they have not done the same for us, so they have an advantage.

tenpercentfirearms
03-15-2006, 11:56 AM
I agree, the state has no favors going for it right now. A month ago they did because their scare tactics worked. As they continue to be an agency of mainly talk and little to no action, people are going to get back to doing what they were doing before. No, the only thing the state has going for it is waiting for legislation. However, waiting for legislation could have a lot of negative consequences. The ball is in their court, it is their time to make the next move. Nothing has changed in this lower business. We bought these guns to make them ten round fixed magazine rifles, we are still buying them to make ten round fixed magazine rifles. They have to make the next move. Are they going to list or are they going to wait? It looks more and more like wait. That is fine, people will keep bringing them in. It really doesn't matter what we do, the ball is in their court as it always has been. Your move DOJ.

Clodbuster
03-15-2006, 12:10 PM
I don't know how the DOJ got "owned Hard". Seems to me the only people really irked by the situation right now are the people with boxes of unlisted lowers not knowing what to do with them and venting in a thread every few days. DOJ guys are just watching the clock on their desk waiting for 4:59PM so they can go home.

Clod

I think that at this point the DOJ knows they got OWNED HARD by a couple of guys online. Funny when you think about it really that a couple of people who had never met before knew the law better than those who were supposed to be enforcing it. Whether they list or not at least our revenge is assured when Bill's website and campaign get off the ground.

Hopi
03-15-2006, 12:24 PM
I don't know how the DOJ got "owned Hard". Seems to me the only people really irked by the situation right now are the people with boxes of unlisted lowers not knowing what to do with them and venting in a thread every few days. DOJ guys are just watching the clock on their desk waiting for 4:59PM so they can go home.

Clod

Maybe you haven't been paying attention closely enough. The DOJ's job is to update the list and PREVENT ar-15 type rifles from being sold in CA. They were sleeping at the wheel and because they didn't update the list in over 5 years, thousands and thousands of these rifles are now in the state. The reality of 1000's of new ar-15 rifles in the state does not make them very happy considering it was their job to prevent them from being sold to law-abiding citizens in the first place. A screw up this big would have you fired in any honest real-world job.

6172crew
03-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Cops take this kind of thing personally, the LE side of the firearms division was pretty bent out of shape when we first started the offlist lower thing.

The folks answering phone calls up there were a little peeved(no more 30 min breaks). Think of all the letters that had to be replied to, Im sure the folks drafting these up were ok but the lady in charge was a little pissed everytime she had to sign a letter saying it was legal to buy a AR15.:cool:


I don't know how the DOJ got "owned Hard". Seems to me the only people really irked by the situation right now are the people with boxes of unlisted lowers not knowing what to do with them and venting in a thread every few days. DOJ guys are just watching the clock on their desk waiting for 4:59PM so they can go home.

Clod

TheMan
03-15-2006, 12:48 PM
Instead of building up their load for a one-time all encompassing shot, you would think they would get their heads out of their butts and simply update with whatever list they got, and then do a weekly update as they find new receivers. How freakin' hard is that to figure out? :rolleyes:

Maybe they only want to have 1 registration period, instead of several overlapping ones?

bwiese
03-15-2006, 12:53 PM
Maybe they only want to have 1 registration period, instead of several overlapping ones?

Yes, nice concept (for them) - but the problem just gets more unmanageable as time progresses.

In addition if they're also doing 12276.5 add-on motions via court filings for nonAR/nonAK guns, those may not be exactly synchronizable with AR/AK list updates so there could be some spread there (FAL clones, etc.) So that could end up creating several 90 day windows with a few weeks' hangover on either end.

6172crew
03-15-2006, 1:00 PM
Lets hope so. Id like to think law abiding folks like us should be trusted w/ civilian rifles.

Maybe they only want to have 1 registration period, instead of several overlapping ones?

HEUER
03-15-2006, 1:40 PM
I agree, the state has no favors going for it right now. A month ago they did because their scare tactics worked. As they continue to be an agency of mainly talk and little to no action, people are going to get back to doing what they were doing before. No, the only thing the state has going for it is waiting for legislation. However, waiting for legislation could have a lot of negative consequences. The ball is in their court, it is their time to make the next move. Nothing has changed in this lower business. We bought these guns to make them ten round fixed magazine rifles, we are still buying them to make ten round fixed magazine rifles. They have to make the next move. Are they going to list or are they going to wait? It looks more and more like wait. That is fine, people will keep bringing them in. It really doesn't matter what we do, the ball is in their court as it always has been. Your move DOJ.

I agree. Third week in March and no list. They have got to be at least thinking about plan B.

glen avon
03-15-2006, 1:43 PM
and my point is that Plan B may be something totally unexpected.

6172crew
03-15-2006, 1:59 PM
I just hope it isnt a outright ban. I feel there will be alot more guys who say screw the Govt and build anyhow and I dont want to see folks go to jail for somthing that should be legal.

and my point is that Plan B may be something totally unexpected.

Hopi
03-15-2006, 2:09 PM
I just hope it isnt a outright ban. I feel there will be alot more guys who say screw the Govt and build anyhow and I dont want to see folks go to jail for somthing that should be legal.

Unfortunately this happens all the time throughout the U.S.:mad: :(

TheMan
03-15-2006, 3:51 PM
Yes, nice concept (for them) - but the problem just gets more unmanageable as time progresses.

In addition if they're also doing 12276.5 add-on motions via court filings for nonAR/nonAK guns, those may not be exactly synchronizable with AR/AK list updates so there could be some spread there (FAL clones, etc.) So that could end up creating several 90 day windows with a few weeks' hangover on either end.

It would be much more manageable than trying to do a new list update every week, and handling that paperwork.

There is no reason they couldn't synchronize future filings of the 12276.5 add-ons to the release of additional series listings, in order to make a single active 90 day window at any given time, with no overlaps.

Justang
03-15-2006, 6:43 PM
Well, they could do a buncha stuff at once... But DOJ can update AR/AK list themselves without anyone else intervening. (They just give the list to the Secretary of State, who updates CCR 979.11 10 days later.)

All other stuff to be banned must go thru PC 12276.5 add-on petitions in certain superior courts.

Now, would we see this happening? Would we know about this moving through legislation? Basically, would we hear about this and then be able to buy before the ban?

taloft
03-15-2006, 7:33 PM
A better question is what has the NRA, CRPA, and other organizations heard? They have lobbyists, sources that we don't. What is their take on all of this? We need this information before the DOJ makes a move so, that we can exert pressure where it's needed in a timely fashion. Finding out after the fact will be too late to stop them.

vtecteg4u
03-15-2006, 7:39 PM
A better question is what has the NRA, CRPA, and other organizations heard? They have lobbyists, sources that we don't. What is their take on all of this? We need this information before the DOJ makes a move so, that we can exert pressure where it's needed in a timely fashion. Finding out after the fact will be too late to stop them.
Why haven't we heard anything from any of these different groups. The NRA was all over Prop H, but I have yet to hear a damn thing from anyone about the 15k+ lowers that have come into the state and the way the DOJ has tried to screw us all

sac7000
03-15-2006, 8:06 PM
A better question is what has the NRA, CRPA, and other organizations heard? They have lobbyists, sources that we don't. What is their take on all of this? We need this information before the DOJ makes a move so, that we can exert pressure where it's needed in a timely fashion. Finding out after the fact will be too late to stop them.

I've wondered the same thing. Could it be that they and their lawyers are still analyzing the situation before making a statement?

xenophobe
03-15-2006, 8:44 PM
I think the NRA doesn't want to be too highly public about associations with people who want to own "assault weapons" in this liberal state. They try to come across as moderate RKBA proponents, not gun-rights fanatics...

Which sometimes is a good thing, but other times just isn't enough....

metalhead357
03-15-2006, 8:57 PM
Which sometimes is a good thing, but other times just isn't enough....

AMEN!

And lets not forget too, there WAS a time when they did argue that everyone should (still) be allowed a fully automatic weapon....

My my my........ how far have we slid down that slippery slope:rolleyes:

Ford8N
03-15-2006, 9:35 PM
Why haven't we heard anything from any of these different groups. The NRA was all over Prop H, but I have yet to hear a damn thing from anyone about the 15k+ lowers that have come into the state and the way the DOJ has tried to screw us all


I've E-mailed in that very question to the NRA. No answer.

But they still ask me for money?!....

shopkeep
03-15-2006, 9:45 PM
Well technically all the DOJ did was write a nasty memo. There's really no incentive for the NRA or anyone else to risk associating with us militia nuts who are hoarding AR-15s and AK-47s when the DOJ hasn't taken action :) j/k. Once the DOJ comes down hard on us and stomps our rights THEN I would expect the NRA might take notice.

xenophobe
03-15-2006, 10:01 PM
I called them again today.... they were still laughing from my last call... I think he managed to say "you again?" and I just hung up. lol

artherd
03-16-2006, 12:22 AM
I agree, the state has no favors going for it right now. A month ago they did because their scare tactics worked.
Not on all of us, and not on you for a good long time (or anymore) I might add!

artherd
03-16-2006, 12:24 AM
Yea, even the DOJ peeps gotta wait for them welfare checks...whoops I mean Paychecks! THEY Gotta have a chance to stock up on some for themselves too now;) Think any of the FFL's will give 'em a DOJ Discount on an off lister?????
I happen to know of quite a few DOJ employees, District Attorneys office empoloyees, not to mention absolute hordes of rank&file Law Enforcement from all branches who have all taken the initiative and decided to excercise their rights by purchasing a legal lower or legal rifle. Kudos to them.

Heck, DOJ even bought a T-shirt...

shopkeep
03-16-2006, 1:10 AM
OK folks... gonna make an inside joke here.

How many have you sold?
It's going on the list!!!

metalhead357
03-16-2006, 9:52 AM
not to mention absolute hordes of rank&file Law Enforcement from all branches who have all taken the initiative and decided to excercise their rights by purchasing a legal lower or legal rifle. Kudos to them.

Heck, DOJ even bought a T-shirt...

:eek: Ahhhh!!! Does that mean I'm Dressed now like a DOJ agent if I wear mine????LOL!

I hear ya' man. It IS nice to know that some there are even (secretly) on board and buyin' thier own. Some seriously karmic-perversive side of me though would love to read about how one gets "caught" and did something stoopid by Not reading the FAQ and the very regulations they help to create gets 'em hamstrung............NOT the rank & file peeps but one way up: FLASH NEWS Lockyer arrested for having an arsenal of AR's and AK's that have never been registered....slop at Eleven.

Again, the rank and file there have my sympathy....what a run of past administrations and all the nonsense they hand all ya'. I feel your pain...I hope you all feel and hear ours! List these things! And DONT start a blessed 4th catagory!!!!!! In the meantime- BUY BUY BUY! Buy Mortimer! BUY! And Helping out Artherd with the purchase of a couple MORE shirts would be nice too:D

Clodbuster
03-16-2006, 12:52 PM
Do you think anyone at the DOJ will be fired over this? Based on what I know of government positions, I highly doubt it. As I said, the only people losing sleep over this issue are the people with the unlisted lowers. DOJ has put up their response to the unlisted lowers more than a month ago, and are now taking their regular coffee breaks.


Clod

A screw up this big would have you fired in any honest real-world job.

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 1:21 PM
Oddly today, I did not call. However, I got a phone call from some 916 area code number... all I could hear was laughing. I called them back and got a DOJ voicemail.

Hopi
03-16-2006, 1:23 PM
Do you think anyone at the DOJ will be fired over this? Based on what I know of government positions, I highly doubt it. As I said, the only people losing sleep over this issue are the people with the unlisted lowers. DOJ has put up their response to the unlisted lowers more than a month ago, and are now taking their regular coffee breaks.


Clod
No, I don't think anyone at the DOJ will be fired and that is not what I was implying. I was trying to put the enormity of this screw-up into perspective and said that in "any honest real-world job" (read: not the DOJ's demonstrated line of work) the reprocussions of such an error would certainly be serious. Most people take pride in their work, I would assume that such a failure at the DOJ would surely have someone's butt in the hotseat, even if only for a few minutes.

And to address your original question of how the DOJ "got owned", here it is very simply; they failed to do their job, we took advantage of them and very succesfully spotlighted this DOJ regime's level of incompetence, we now have in our hands these lowers, lowers that the DOJ had been directed to prevent from getting into our hands.
They had the authority, the direction, and the means for which to enforce and facilitate the law but THEY FAILED.

pepsi2451
03-16-2006, 1:31 PM
Just got an email from the DOJ

"Dear Sir:

I am sorry for the lateness of my reply but I have just recently been given an answer to your question, or at least, what information I can give within regards to your question.

Please open the attached Important Notice; it is about AK47's as well as AR-15 series type weapons. This is all the information I have at this time. Keep checking back on our website for any updated information."



"just recently?" My question was from January 02 and the attachment was the memo from Febuary 01 in word perfect format.

Snapcap
03-16-2006, 2:26 PM
Oddly today, I did not call. However, I got a phone call from some 916 area code number... all I could hear was laughing. I called them back and got a DOJ voicemail.
Are you serious? LOL!
I think we all are just going to have neutered ARs for a while...

xenophobe
03-16-2006, 3:09 PM
haha.... am I kidding? I'm just making light of the situation. Nothing new will happen yet, but when it does, everyone will know about it.

shopkeep
03-16-2006, 3:24 PM
Heck they're probably just going to list anyways... there's no sense in making all this noise and putting up the memo then not going forward with it. In the meantime though I'll be enjoying my off-list rifles as much as possible on public land... something I won't be able to do as much when they're listed (BLM regulations on AWs in some areas).