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jnojr
03-14-2006, 9:24 PM
Due to very low levels of participation and poor communication with the group sponsoring the effort (including our inability to get a signature count), we're calling it off.

If we were anything close to on-track to getting enough signatures, we'd know. But we aren't. Our effort was severely hampered by poor communication and organization... we were basically trying to build up while the signature gathering period was running. My analogy was, the race had started, and we were still building our race car.

We've learned a lot, and this initiative will be put forth once again in '08 Our intention is to build a real organization that can accept donations (maybe even a dues-based group), and build our effort up and have it ready to go when the gathering period starts. We want to have a professional website and the ability to supply forms and professionally-designed posters and flyers, rather than asking people to go out-of-pocket for forms and cheesy flyers we threw together ourselves :)

Please destroy any unfilled petition forms you may have... they cannot be reused. Filled out forms should be delivered to the TACR address.

If you have any questions, ideas, concerns, etc. or would like to be involved with building a group to tackle this initiative in '08, please email joliver@reformcagunlaws.com

PanzerAce
03-14-2006, 9:26 PM
yup. Sucks.

Don't really know any other way to put it. Sure, I wasnt to sure it would get on the ballot or if it did that it would pass, but I was still hoping (and gathering signatures) for it.

Prospector
03-14-2006, 9:43 PM
This suck. There is a next time.

PanzerAce
03-14-2006, 9:44 PM
true. Well, might as well say that Ill be here for the next one as well, since I dont plan on transfering colleges...

Sgt Raven
03-14-2006, 10:00 PM
We have another month, why are you giving up now?

EBWhite
03-14-2006, 10:00 PM
Without some bucks, it is hard to get this done with so many signatues in so little time

jnojr
03-14-2006, 10:15 PM
We have another month, why are you giving up now?

Basically, the fact that we can't get any kind of a count from TACR tells us we're far short of the mark. On top of that, far too few people are willing to get involved.

Instead of continuing an effort that never got off the ground properly, we'd rather close up shop and begin working on an '08 effort now.

shopkeep
03-14-2006, 10:39 PM
What we need to be doing between NOW and 2008 is staring a non-profit organization and gathering cash. Just think of how much cash can be accumulated over the next two years. Then when the time comes we get signature gatherers. We pay them $0.10 per signature or some price per signature.

Without paid circulators and MASSIVE amount of people circulating this is doomed to failure. We need to spend the next two years building up cash and infrastructure. We also need to look at some statistics:

#1 how many paid circulators would it take to get enough signatures
#2 how much would each signature cost
#3 how much does each member of the non-profit organization have to contribute to obtain desired result

On the otherhand, San Francisco's Prop H became a bit of a rallying call didn't it? I imagine even more draconian bans will be passed prior to 2008. Something like say, Ammo Serialization should get more people active and working hard to get this thing on the ballot.

DSA_FAL
03-14-2006, 10:52 PM
Without paid circulators and MASSIVE amount of people circulating this is doomed to failure.

Exactly. Initiatives WILL NOT get on the ballot without paid signature gatherers. This applies to all initiatives. If the NRA would like to help out dues paying Californians, they can start by paying for signature gatherers.

jnojr
03-14-2006, 10:58 PM
What we need to be doing between NOW and 2008 is staring a non-profit organization and gathering cash.

That's exactly what I have in mind :)

We need to find someone who can help us set up such a group. I'm sure there's some kind of state registration, something like articles of incorporation, etc. that are involved.

Heck, I want to make it a dues-based group. Everyone pay $15 or $20 or $25 a year or whatever.

I'd also like to see it become a real "lobby" in Sacramento. We could also try a few simple, "common sense" law changes... for example, eliminating the ten-day waiting period for someone who has a CCW or who already has the type of gun (handgun, rifle, shotgun) they're buying. That would be kinda tough for the antis to rant and foam at the mouth over.

jnojr
03-14-2006, 11:02 PM
If the NRA would like to help out dues paying Californians, they can start by paying for signature gatherers.

They don't, and won't. We're on our own.

However, we don't need to pay for every signature. A very sharp, professional-looking group (good website - not my crappy one, sharp four-color posters and fliers, etc.) can get a lot more volunteers. With funds, we can ship kits of posters and forms to every gun store, shooting range, etc. that will help, instead of asking volunteers to drive to Kinkos, dig into their own pockets, etc.

We can also team up with other initiatives in that year. Cal Border Police, for example... we collect signatures for them, they collect signatures for us. Maybe piggyback on their paid gatherers too... I doubt that a gatherer gets paid twice as much for getting a signature on two different forms.

There are a lot of possibilities.

Sgt Raven
03-14-2006, 11:37 PM
You think putting forms in gun stores etc will get it done? Every form has to have some one sign them. Even working the gun shows etc. I see forms that will get kicked because they're not filled out right. You have to watch every single person as they sign they forms cause they can't read and understand what they're doing. Every T must be crossed, every I dotted.

With funds, we can ship kits of posters and forms to every gun store, shooting range, etc. that will help, instead of asking volunteers to drive to Kinkos, dig into their own pockets, etc.

Who at these businesses is going to fill out the forms, make sure people sign them in the right spots, etc? That just isn't going to happen no matter how much we want it to. Something as simple as writing S.D. instead of San Diego will get that form kicked when its checked. Or some one writes their name, address, city, and zip code but doesn't sign their name. These are mistakes I've seen and gotten corrected cause I'm watching every single person as they're signing them. No business will do that.

PanzerAce
03-15-2006, 12:14 AM
Raven. On the other hand, there is a benefit of saturation, because even if the same % are tossed, we have far more of a buffer zone.

Barry Gannaway
03-15-2006, 12:38 AM
I agree with Sgt. Raven that simply dropping off forms is not going to be as effective as we would wish. Gun stores and ranges have too much going on to watch people fill out forms.
In the past year three gun stores I visit on the peninsula have had a serious incident. Being nice and pleasent to people who can own guns while weeding those out who can't takes skill.
Firearm transactions in California require so much paperwork I'm sure FFLs are brain dead by the end of the day. The last thing they want is more paper work. I've come to the conclusion that for every pistol purchased a tree dies.

shopkeep
03-15-2006, 2:36 AM
That's exactly what I have in mind :)

We need to find someone who can help us set up such a group. I'm sure there's some kind of state registration, something like articles of incorporation, etc. that are involved.

Heck, I want to make it a dues-based group. Everyone pay $15 or $20 or $25 a year or whatever.

I'd also like to see it become a real "lobby" in Sacramento. We could also try a few simple, "common sense" law changes... for example, eliminating the ten-day waiting period for someone who has a CCW or who already has the type of gun (handgun, rifle, shotgun) they're buying. That would be kinda tough for the antis to rant and foam at the mouth over.

Well tell you what, if you guys are interested in taking this to the next level and starting a non-profit I can do it for us. All it takes is $150 bux (that's $15 from ten people) to pay an attorney to create a non-profit. After that I'd be happy to put in the time to organize directors, etc to get us tax exempt status. Heck I already have a corporation and micromanage that I'll be happy to start up a non-profit for our RKBA logistics. Lets just make sure we have some good directors (ahem... Don Kilmer and others) who can make sure funds don't get misappropriated and are strategically placed!

Chaingun
03-15-2006, 7:52 AM
That's exactly what I have in mind :)

We need to find someone who can help us set up such a group. I'm sure there's some kind of state registration, something like articles of incorporation, etc. that are involved.

Heck, I want to make it a dues-based group. Everyone pay $15 or $20 or $25 a year or whatever.

I'd also like to see it become a real "lobby" in Sacramento. We could also try a few simple, "common sense" law changes... for example, eliminating the ten-day waiting period for someone who has a CCW or who already has the type of gun (handgun, rifle, shotgun) they're buying. That would be kinda tough for the antis to rant and foam at the mouth over.

We start some anti-gun non-profit group funded by George Soros, and then push though the RKBA. :D

jnojr
03-15-2006, 9:34 AM
Well tell you what, if you guys are interested in taking this to the next level and starting a non-profit I can do it for us. All it takes is $150 bux (that's $15 from ten people) to pay an attorney to create a non-profit. After that I'd be happy to put in the time to organize directors, etc to get us tax exempt status. Heck I already have a corporation and micromanage that I'll be happy to start up a non-profit for our RKBA logistics. Lets just make sure we have some good directors (ahem... Don Kilmer and others) who can make sure funds don't get misappropriated and are strategically placed!

Please email me and rkba@sonic.net This is exactly the type of thing we need for our first step.

jnojr
03-15-2006, 9:37 AM
I agree with Sgt. Raven that simply dropping off forms is not going to be as effective as we would wish. Gun stores and ranges have too much going on to watch people fill out forms.

The alternative is raising millions of dollars to pay signature gatherers.

IMO, gun stores need to get a little more proactive about this. They're dinosaurs, stuck in the oil pit. If they focus on trying to swim, they're eventually going to drown. Or they can reach out for the branch being extended to them.

The biggest problem we as gun owners face in this state is the mentality that "someone else" should take care of our problems. Yeah, the laws suck and are getting worse, but I have a life, and I'm tired at the end of the day... somebody else needs to fight the fight for me. When everyone says that, nobody's fighting. And we all lose.

cpsca
03-15-2006, 9:50 AM
Where do I send my $15 to help get the nonprofit setup?

I was a listed volunteer for the RKBA petition and I'd love to help out with further efforts.

Can'thavenuthingood
03-15-2006, 12:06 PM
Along with dues you might setup a PayPal account to accept online donations and a P.O.Box for mailed donations.

Just read about Marylands problems on THR, some good ideas.
A new orgs public focus ought to be more on "Self-Defense" issues like Floridas Castle Doctrine. Play on the Katrina and 9/11 themes of the police not being there when needed. Especially the women folk ought to be guaranteed the right to defend themselves.

Don't try to "ram home" the idea that we should all be packing but play the "pro Choice" theme, they already know the tune.

Only have one opportunity to make a good first impression.

Where do I send the money?

Vick

Jeff Rambo
03-15-2006, 12:12 PM
J.O.,

Send me an e-mail. We can discuss Web development. I will extend the services of my firm. We do 1 pro bono project a year and guess who picks for who?

My e-mail address is listed in my profile, but I am not a hard person to get ahold of as you should also have my e-mail address from one of the same Yahoo groups that we are apart of.

Red Flag
03-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Well tell you what, if you guys are interested in taking this to the next level and starting a non-profit I can do it for us. All it takes is $150 bux (that's $15 from ten people) to pay an attorney to create a non-profit. After that I'd be happy to put in the time to organize directors, etc to get us tax exempt status. Heck I already have a corporation and micromanage that I'll be happy to start up a non-profit for our RKBA logistics. Lets just make sure we have some good directors (ahem... Don Kilmer and others) who can make sure funds don't get misappropriated and are strategically placed!

Where do I send my payment!!!!

More than happy to help get this going!

Chris

Unsub
03-15-2006, 6:11 PM
Is it possible to stick this thread? I was part of the RKBA effort (although late in the game) and I would still like to be part of it... I can design a cool banner for the webpage as well.

We should also have a message board on the RKBA page -- invisionfree is a good one with many capabilities (private forums, admin stuff, etc). We will need this for improved communication.

Also, another resource to utilize is MySpace.com and MySpace groups -- much of it is dominated by teenagers, however, many teenagers are interested in firearms and would be willing to sign petitions, etc. By 2008, many of them will be of legal age to buy handguns. There are also many Republican/conservative groups who would be willing to do something. There are also firearms groups.

Anyways, I'll stay motivated for this and keep my eyes open.

kantstudien
03-15-2006, 9:01 PM
Can these signatures be gathered online? That was one of my gripes before, even though I wanted to sign, forms were nowhere to be found! The website was totally worthless, why not make it easy for lazy people like myself? I personally don't want to spend $20 to get admitted to a jerky show to find a petition.

Sgt Raven
03-15-2006, 11:50 PM
Can these signatures be gathered online? That was one of my gripes before, even though I wanted to sign, forms were nowhere to be found! The website was totally worthless, why not make it easy for lazy people like myself? I personally don't want to spend $20 to get admitted to a jerky show to find a petition.


What you can't download the form to a floppy disk or a CD and take it to Kinkos and have them print it for you? The state set how the petition is to be printed, you think they want to make it easy for us? The form is in .PDF format anyone with a computer should be able to handle that.

socalguns
03-15-2006, 11:51 PM
Can you please diagram how your operation was organized this time,
and how this is going to change?

The following book might help (I've not read it, but it seems on point)
The Initiative Cookbook
Recipes and Stories From California's Ballot Wars
http://www.democracyctr.org/resources/cookbook.html

socalguns
03-15-2006, 11:59 PM
What you can't download the form to a floppy disk or a CD and take it to Kinkos and have them print it for you? The state set how the petition is to be printed, you think they want to make it easy for us? The form is in .PDF format anyone with a computer should be able to handle that.

What about http://www.petitiononline.com/?


"Untitled Page"

Sgt Raven
03-16-2006, 12:04 AM
What about http://www.petitiononline.com/?


"Untitled Page"

What about here......... http://www.tacr.us/countylist2.html and download your county's form.

shopkeep
03-16-2006, 12:09 AM
OK guys I talked to my attorney, if there's enough interest I'll start a non-profit and we can use paypal for the purpose of paying the initial bill to the attorney and also for contributions. Like I said though we'll need a good board of directors for the non-profit and I'm nominating Don Kilmer to the board.

We already proved that we can organize some fairly impressive grassroots efforts online when we rebelled against the DOJ by bringing in over 10,000 lower recievers via group buys and various FFLs. We definitely need to take this same concerted approach to RKBA and CCWs.

socalguns
03-16-2006, 12:27 AM
What about here......... http://www.tacr.us/countylist2.html and download your county's form.
It doesn't answer my question
(it doesn't address using petitiononline.com)

jdberger
03-16-2006, 12:37 AM
OK guys I talked to my attorney, if there's enough interest I'll start a non-profit and we can use paypal for the purpose of paying the initial bill to the attorney and also for contributions. Like I said though we'll need a good board of directors for the non-profit and I'm nominating Don Kilmer to the board.

I'm interested. Let me know either on this thread or via PM.

John, I'd like to thank you and Dave for all that you've done in coordinating and tracking volunteers and business that were helpful to this effort. Thanks for giving me an outlet when I was so incensed by the SF gun ban. You turned my rant into something useful.

I've still got a bunch of vendors out there with petitions that have signatures on them. I'll try to collect them in the next few weeks and send them in, you never know....

Anyway, thanks again.

artherd
03-16-2006, 12:53 AM
I'll help, I can host the sites for free at the least, shoot me an e-mail Kirk.
-Ben.

jnojr
03-16-2006, 10:36 AM
It doesn't answer my question
(it doesn't address using petitiononline.com)

No, you cannot sign online.

The petition forms are official county / state documents... they must be filled out and signed, in person, by registered voters. There are laws and election codes that govern these things.

petitiononline.com is really a joke. I always say, online petitions are worth the paper they're printed on. Too easy to forge or screw with. Maybe it's good for "Save my favorite TV show", but no lawmaker will ever pay attention to an online petition until there's a rock-solid way to verify the signers.

jnojr
03-16-2006, 10:42 AM
Can you please diagram how your operation was organized this time,
and how this is going to change?

Heh... :-) Here's how it went... Don Kilmer has been introducing this measure every other year since 2000 or earlier. TACR / GS2AC were the ones collecting signatures... but nobody outsode of the Bay Area knows about them. I heard about this a couple of years ago and wound up in contact with Dave. When the measure was put forward again, we just started trying to get volunteers and signatures. There never really was any "organization"... we had no advance notice.

Now, what we want to do going forward, is start the organization now. Have clear lines of communication, know who's doing what, etc. We can spend the next year and a half fundraising, educating, raising awareness, etc. We can even see if we can get Mr. Kilmer to be invovled, maybe sonsider changes to the wording, whatever. We can find someone to design and print sharp, professional-looking fliers and posters. Hopefully, we can know exactly when the measure will be introduced again, and orchestrate a buildup towards that date. Essentially, have our rcae car finished, tuned, full of gas, and ready to go when the flag drops.

The following book might help (I've not read it, but it seems on point)
The Initiative Cookbook
Recipes and Stories From California's Ballot Wars
http://www.democracyctr.org/resources/cookbook.html

I'll see if I can find it. Thanks for the suggestion!

jnojr
03-16-2006, 10:57 AM
I just created a Yahoo group to discuss the future of the RKBA amendment:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carkba/

For the moment, it's open so anyone can join. I debated making it "by invitation only", but that's a bell that cannot be unrung... once I do that, to go open again, we'd have to delete and recreate the group. Try to keep that in mind... we don't want to wind up discussing any strategy that an anti could read about and try to derail (like a plan to solicit funding from certain companies, or an arrangement to have a group help gather signatures when that group might receive calls from angry antis and they cave).

Right now, I think a discussion board might be a little overkill. And an awful lot of the people who deal with this are older and won't be on MySpace. There is, FWIW, a MySpace group I formed called "California RKBA"... but I don't log on to MySpace very often, and there isn't a whole lot of traffic in that group.

Paladin
03-16-2006, 1:08 PM
Heh... :-) Here's how it went... Don Kilmer has been introducing this measure every other year since 2000 or earlier. TACR / GS2AC were the ones collecting signatures... but nobody outsode of the Bay Area knows about them. <snip> When the measure was put forward again, we just started trying to get volunteers and signatures. There never really was any "organization"... we had no advance notice.

<snip>
We can even see if we can get Mr. Kilmer to be invovled, maybe sonsider changes to the wording, whatever.

What is Mr. Kilmer's relationship to GS2AC/TACR? Was he involved w/their political strategy or planning?

A news article at:http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/01.11.06/guns-0602.html says, "Kilmer is leading the GS2AC effort to get an initiative on the state ballot this November." Later the article identifies Mark Tober as "GS2AC President Tober."

Given their performance this year was after 3 previous attempts (2000, 2002, 2004), why do you think it is wise seeking the same leadership? This is leadership that, to use your analogy, chose to enter a race for the 4th time w/o even having an assembled and running car.

Do you think their tactic of spending time, money, and manpower making and airing ads on Al Franken's Air America radio program *during the signature gathering period* was wise? (For those new to this discussion, see my (and other's) comments on p 10 & 11 of: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29657&page=10 ) If not, why seek the same political leaders?

socalguns
03-16-2006, 3:36 PM
thank you, that answers my question

jnojr
03-16-2006, 4:02 PM
What is Mr. Kilmer's relationship to GS2AC/TACR? Was he involved w/their political strategy or planning?

A news article at:http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/01.11.06/guns-0602.html says, "Kilmer is leading the GS2AC effort to get an initiative on the state ballot this November." Later the article identifies Mark Tober as "GS2AC President Tober."

Given their performance this year was after 3 previous attempts (2000, 2002, 2004), why do you think it is wise seeking the same leadership? This is leadership that, to use your analogy, chose to enter a race for the 4th time w/o even having an assembled and running car.

This is why I want to look into building an organization now. Ideally, Mr. Kilmer and Mr. Towber will agree that the way TACR has done things up until now hasn't worked, and that it's time for a radical change. I'd rather see TACR become what we want, rather that build a whole new organization from scratch. Not least of all because if TACR put this initiative up again with their address, we'd be stuck where we are today, or introducing an identical (or slightly different) initiative with our address. That would be bad for everyone... split signatures, confusion, etc.

If TACR is "in charge" again in '08 with no changes, I won't be involved. Probably at all... I just can't see two groups trying to do the same thing at the same time. It just won't work.

I've asked Dave L to contact Don Kilmer and Mark Towber to see what they say.

Can'thavenuthingood
03-16-2006, 4:19 PM
I think the TACR org has a "same old thing" stigma to it from 2000-2002-2004 and now 2006.

Time for a new sheriff with new tactics for a well thought out plan of attack.
The Franken stuff was a puzzle but I wasn't there so I'll scratch my head in awe.

Whatever the petition is, how its presented will determine if we have to fight the unions.

Vick

jnojr
03-16-2006, 5:29 PM
FWIW, I'm not totally opposed to the Franken ads. This is a non-partisan issue, and there are plenty of Democrats and even some liberals who believe in the RKBA. Personally, I would only want to buy airtime on a liberal talk show after I felt pretty sure that all of the more potentially fruitful possibilities had been hit. For example, KFI.

Also, one thing I should probably mention... the initiative isn't totally dead. People can still collect signatures if they want. The April 15 deadline still stands. It's the "unofficial" group headed by Dave Linnehan http://rkba.members.sonic.net/ that's focusing efforts on preparing for an '08 attempt instead of pouring more time and money and sweat into what feels like a dead end.

Token
03-17-2006, 1:39 PM
I just created a Yahoo group to discuss the future of the RKBA amendment:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carkba/

For the moment, it's open so anyone can join. I debated making it "by invitation only", but that's a bell that cannot be unrung... once I do that, to go open again, we'd have to delete and recreate the group. Try to keep that in mind... we don't want to wind up discussing any strategy that an anti could read about and try to derail (like a plan to solicit funding from certain companies, or an arrangement to have a group help gather signatures when that group might receive calls from angry antis and they cave).

Right now, I think a discussion board might be a little overkill. And an awful lot of the people who deal with this are older and won't be on MySpace. There is, FWIW, a MySpace group I formed called "California RKBA"... but I don't log on to MySpace very often, and there isn't a whole lot of traffic in that group.
Have you thought of using www.proboards.com? You can set up a simple little forum that might work better than Yahoo Groups. Later, if you are worried about antis, you can turn off public viewing, or make a subforum that only members can see.

magsnubby
03-18-2006, 2:53 PM
OK guys I talked to my attorney, if there's enough interest I'll start a non-profit and we can use paypal for the purpose of paying the initial bill to the attorney and also for contributions. Like I said though we'll need a good board of directors for the non-profit and I'm nominating Don Kilmer to the board.


Sounds like a plan to me. I'm in.

Supernam
03-19-2006, 2:02 AM
Didn't go through this entire thread, but have we considered (for next time) mailing out actual forms to all california FFL's? It would be nice just to walk into your local gun stores and see every shopper fill it out. A lot of people simply DON'T know about these things. Not everyone burns hours of time in gun forums like me and you.

jnojr
03-19-2006, 9:52 AM
Didn't go through this entire thread, but have we considered (for next time) mailing out actual forms to all california FFL's?

It takes money to print and mail all of those forms. And just a stack of forms won't do it... you'd have to include some kind of attention-getting poster (professionally designed and printed), since most gun stores aren't going to actively solicit every customer for a signature. You have to keep track of all of those forms, make sure that when stores run out they get more, and that completed forms are returned. Some gun stores may be unwilling to pay the return postage.

Big, busy gun stores, or the only gun store "for miles around", should have days where one or more volunteers are available to spread awareness. If the forms are just sitting there, 95% of people walk on by. At the gun shows, we have to grab people's attention, and even then no more than half will sign.

There is, unfortunately, a lot more to this than just getting forms out there.

AntiBubba 2.1
03-20-2006, 8:51 PM
I'm late to the party again, I see.

While gathering signatures at one of the CalExpo shows, I talked to some of the NRA folks. One of them has worked on several (non-gun) initiatives, and expressed interest in any future RKBA efforts. She would be an invaluable advisor for us.

I know that jnojr is convinced that the NRA will never help us, but I think there's never been a credible "us" before. We've never had a definable organization; it's been closer to a guerilla movement. There are a lot of CRPA and California NRA members who would get involved if they knew about it. We didn't get GOA or JPFO or anyone else to back, or even mention, us.

As for the gun stores, we first have to show them we're a serious effort. And we need to find a way to involve the stores without burdening them. Most places were reluctant to have various stacks of petitions take up precious counter space. A few gave me a kind of :rolleyes: "Oh no, not again" reaction. We need to show up for the trap and skeet events, the Cowboy Shooting, even store sales. By the time petition signing starts in Fall '07, we need to have the machine fueled and ready to go, and not looking for locations.

Again, the most important word that comes to mind is "credible".

Shopkeep, I'll get a check to you, with a little extra for the toner and paper expenses from this year's effort.


David

andywoolcott
03-21-2006, 9:22 PM
So what happens to all the signaturs that wer gathered?

jdberger
03-22-2006, 8:29 AM
They are destroyed.:mad:

scott.cr
03-28-2006, 10:48 PM
I didn't read the entire thread, but I did work one of the Costa Mesa gun shows (with two other guys) to collect signatures.

Personally I found that people were more likely to sign the form (even at a gun show where you'd think everyone would want to sign an RKBA petition) if the pitch was professional and more interrogatory than imperative.

IE. Would you like to sign our petition?

Rather than,

Sign our petition to protect your rights!

After the number of years I've worked in retail you tend to have a real low level of expectation for "everyman's" intelligence level hahaha.

stator
03-29-2006, 6:22 AM
Lose organizations and lose controls.... big problem.

One of the RKBA CA orgs used the donations for attending the NRA convention rather than paying for signature collection. Or direct petition activities that donors would assume their money would be spent on. I will leave those people nameless in hopes that they have become more serious.