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ChrisO
05-18-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm wanting to build a VERY simple carbine I'm missing my old AR VERY much. I've been very seriously considering making a 9mm AR instead of 5.56. The gun will be for plinking and a truck gun. I'm thinking a 9mm could be effective on soft targets to 200 yards (pushing it) but would probably be going fast enough to get the job done? Or am I way off? I think a 9mm carbine loaded with JHP would be a fierce little riffle. With the cost of 9mm being low I would also be able to practice a hell of a lot more. Also is there any 9mm AR's that take glock 17 mags? I have plenty of glock 17 mags and ammo compatibility would be nice with my glock 17 and glock 26.

pacrimguru
05-18-2010, 11:27 AM
i have a 9 and i love it. i'm not sure about being accurate at 200 yards though.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm thinking the gain out of a longer barrel for 9mm is marginal but I'm wondering if it will still be traveling fast enough at that distance to work on soft targets. I like the 5.56 but a 9mm AR seems quite appealing to me :). Easier to handle quicker to put rounds on target at close range (not that 5.56 is hard to) but just seems like a fun gun.

POLICESTATE
05-18-2010, 11:30 AM
Rifle rounds for rifles IMO, I would go 9mm for an AR pistol but for an AR carbine/rifle it would be 5.56 or 308 (although for 308 I'd go M1A personally).

Exposed
05-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Olympic arms sells the AR15 9mm that uses glock mags.

radioed22
05-18-2010, 11:35 AM
olympic arms is the only manufacture that I have seen that make a lower that excepts glock mags. not sure how much of a rush you are in but MSAR is suppose to come out with a rifle that does 9mm with glock mags. I wanted an 9mm AR too but I think ill make a 10in pistol or wait for the MSAR.

todd2968
05-18-2010, 11:37 AM
Why on earth would anyone want a rifle that shoots 9mm. I have a pistol that does that and an AR that shoots 5.56. If I was a door kicker and focused on close quarters combat maybe, but it seems like a waste of money to builds and ar with and effective range of 50 yards.
That's only my $.02

dskell
05-18-2010, 11:37 AM
Just get a 5.56 AR and then for training, buy one of the many drop in .22LR conversion kits.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 11:50 AM
Why on earth would anyone want a rifle that shoots 9mm. I have a pistol that does that and an AR that shoots 5.56. If I was a door kicker and focused on close quarters combat maybe, but it seems like a waste of money to builds and ar with and effective range of 50 yards.
That's only my $.02


Why on earth would a normal civilian buy a carbine in 5.56 then? In any defensive situation you wouldn't be engaging targets beyond a couple yards (any defensive situation you have a chance at staying out of prison for) one could say people shouldn't own much more than a shotgun or handgun for any real life defensive situation then right? NOT. Why do you own a AR with lights/lasers/optics/VFG's and flip up sights? Are you a door kicking grunt? Do you engage soft targets beyond 50 meters? Do you need it? No probably not.Or are you a armchair commando who plans on SHTF situations and engaging targets at 300 meters? 9mm is not a waste of money when the plan is to save money and have a effective carbine to keep in the truck. Look at the cost of 9mm compared to 5.56 and look at those cost from a reloaders side of the fence.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 11:52 AM
And to add to that 5.56 fragments better at close range with less penetration than a 9mm anyways. This is why a lot of PD's are giving up the 9mm subguns for short barreled AR's. Look before you leap and think before you say something. 9mm effective range is not under 50 yards either bud.

CEDaytonaRydr
05-18-2010, 11:54 AM
i have a 9 and i love it. i'm not sure about being accurate at 200 yards though.

It will get there but there won't me much energy behind it...

I'd opt for something a little bigger, if you want a pistol caliber carbine. Olympic arms has some good options in 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 ACP.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Lancear15
05-18-2010, 12:12 PM
Why on earth would anyone want a rifle that shoots 9mm. I have a pistol that does that and an AR that shoots 5.56. If I was a door kicker and focused on close quarters combat maybe, but it seems like a waste of money to builds and ar with and effective range of 50 yards.
That's only my $.02

I know the seals no longer use 9mm machine guns, they now have fully silenced 5.56's so they have no reason to use 9mm.

Modern vests stop 9mm to easy and it takes a plate to stop 5.56.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 12:13 PM
I don't think he knew much of what he was talking about...

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 12:15 PM
Anyways the RRA upper looks like a decent set up. I also don't want to have to use a lower designed specifically for glock mags so I guess the OA rifle is out of the question since it's a proprietary lower. What mags do the other guns use? Sten mags? Uzi mags?

stix213
05-18-2010, 1:05 PM
Keep in mind that since 9mm is primarily used as pistol ammo, that ammo will be restricted to face to face transactions very soon (thumb print too I think). No more cheap 9mm ammo ordered online when that law goes into effect early 2011, unless some miracle stops it, and for the most inexpensive ammo you can find you will probably be at the whim of what is stocked at walmart. Last I checked the cheapest 9mm at walmart just dropped to about $13 per box of 50. That's $0.26/round, or a little more than what I can find cheap .223 ammo online right now. I typically buy 9mm Bear ammo for $8.50 or so online. (makes mental note to stock up before I forget)

Cheap 5.56 or .223 rem will almost certainly still be available from multiple online sources, and my point is in the long run your choice of 9mm probably will cost you more money thanks to our state legislature, so I wouldn't recommend making your choice for 9mm instead of 5.56 based on ammo cost.

Josh3239
05-18-2010, 1:13 PM
Olympic also makes a 9mm Sten mag rifle. The Sten mags can be the Tapco or the steel ones, but you need a conversion block. Olympic makes some 9mm poly mags that don't need a magblock and they also have modified Sten mags that has a mag block welded on each one.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 1:19 PM
I have considered cost and boxes of 9mm come in 50 and .223 in 20 unless I buy in bulk. I do reload as well. That being said I'm not set on 9mm yet but it seems like a fun practical little carbine.

killshot44
05-18-2010, 1:29 PM
it seems like a waste of money to builds and ar with and effective range of 50 yards. That's only my $.02

Me too. That's .04....

stix213
05-18-2010, 1:41 PM
I have considered cost and boxes of 9mm come in 50 and .223 in 20 unless I buy in bulk. I do reload as well. That being said I'm not set on 9mm yet but it seems like a fun practical little carbine.

Walmart price for 9mm practice ammo FMJ:
$12.95 / 50 = $0.26 per round + gas and time out of your life

Aimsurplus price for .223 Brown Bear JHP (wolf is even cheaper, and aimsurplus is actually rarely the cheapest anyway):
$4.79 / 20 = $0.24 per round + shipping

Unless you live in one of those hell holes that ban magnetic jacketed ammo, I still don't see price being in favor of 9mm after you have to buy pistol ammo face to face only, and once that happens you should expect to have a hard time finding components to reload 9mm since everyone and their brother who doesn't like getting fingerprinted every time they buy a box of 9mm will be reloading.

Rob454
05-18-2010, 2:37 PM
200 yards out of a 9mm may be asking a lot. 9mm is cheaper than 5.56 ( relatively). I would build it. If you end up not liking it you can always sell or trade for a 5.56 upper

huck
05-18-2010, 2:45 PM
One more thing to consider... Let's say that AB 962 actually manages to become a law and this time next year you can't buy handgun ammo through the Internet. You may regret having a 9mm AR.

wsmc27
05-18-2010, 2:52 PM
Rifle rounds for rifles IMO, I would go 9mm for an AR pistol but for an AR carbine/rifle it would be 5.56 or 308 (although for 308 I'd go M1A personally).

^^^ I agree.

:)

Toolbox X
05-18-2010, 3:02 PM
5.56 is barely effective at 50m at killing bad guys. 9mm is effective only when it gets really lucky and at very close range. You need to do some research into terminal wound ballistics.

However, I doubt you will be capping bad guys anytime soon, so get whatever you want.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 3:09 PM
9mm is only effective when it gets really lucky? Please post your sources. I would love to see the idiot that calls 9mm ineffective take a 127 grain ranger in the leg. If I were indeed using a 9mm as a defensive gun it would most certainly be loaded with some JHP.

Toolbox X
05-18-2010, 3:21 PM
9mm is only effective when it gets really lucky? Please post your sources. I would love to see the idiot that calls 9mm ineffective take a 127 grain ranger in the leg. If I were indeed using a 9mm as a defensive gun it would most certainly be loaded with some JHP.

I'm not the one who needs to do the research.

Just about any moving object has the capacity to kill someone. If I throw at rock at you just right I could kill you. But that doesn't mean I should count on your death if I throw a rock at you. Getting shot with anything will ruin your day, but very few projectiles stand a good chance of immediate or quick incapacitation.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 4:34 PM
If you want quick and immediate incapacitation you need to be using a 12 guage loaded with slugs and shooting someone in the head. There are not to many pistol rounds that will stop someone dead in their tracks short of a shot to the brain stem. You have to be a fool to think a good hollow point out of a 9mm is not effective. If your not impressed by anything short of a .44 mag or the all mighty .45 ACP arguing is quite pointless go praise the 45 gods. In reality 9mm with good hollow points will do just fine. Are there better calibers for defense? Yes but I can't put rounds on target nearly as fast with good follow ups from those calibers.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 4:38 PM
Since I'm the one who needs to do some researching please post what you know. I'm tired of hearing 9mm is in effective the reality is my 9mm's stay loaded with quality hollow points not FMJ's. Yes I own pistols in bigger calibers .357 and 44 mag they stay loaded with hollow points as well but I feel a bit more comfortable with my 17 rounds of 127 grain +p rangers or federal hydrashock compared to 7 of 45 ACP or 6 of .357 but thats just me.

Toolbox X
05-18-2010, 5:00 PM
The last time I researched 9mm I found the Winchester Ranger 147gr +p SXT rounds were the most effective. I would use them over the lighter 9mm ranger rounds, and make sure they use SXT bullets. Some of the various Ranger rounds use bullets other than SXT and they are not nearly as effective.

1337Grenadier
05-18-2010, 5:15 PM
I have not heard anything about these lowers but it is worth looking in to if you want to use glock mags.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1803&CAT=288

I would check out gun shows for ammo I picked up 1,000 rounds of nine for about 160 bucks = $0.16 a round.

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 5:19 PM
I use 124gr ranger +P just checked the box (thought it was 127) if it's not the rangers it's 147 grain federal hydra shock ( cant seem to find the 124 in the local shops). Most JHP's from american manufactures are good man stoppers if you put your rounds where they are supposed to go. The rangers give extra assurance with being similar in recoil to what I usually practice with. What it comes down to is training and what your comfortable with. With the cost to reload 9mm or shoot factory ammo I get to train often. I am comfortable with my 9mm and the capacity factor helps a bit as well.

I would be far more worried about a well trained and determined man with a .22lr revolver than a guy who doesn't know what hes doing with a .357 magnum. Here this is a pretty cool comparison of different 9mm ammo it was done by YukonGlocker at MP-Pistol.com he did a 9mm wetpack test (shooting bullets into a pile of wet newspaper to test expansion), and came up with these results:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f292/YukonGlocker/MP9/wetpack009.jpg

Greg-Dawg
05-18-2010, 5:28 PM
My barrel says 5.56.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/LatestAR15007.jpg

ChrisO
05-18-2010, 5:34 PM
Gred-Dawg I'm surprised you didn't come in with caps saying AR15 FOTAYYY. Haha I'll probably just end up getting another AR in 5.56 and just build a 9mm pistol eventually for a truck gun. I have a S*** load of 5.56/.223 brass laying around.

nrakid88
05-18-2010, 8:05 PM
If you want a pistol caliber carbine that will reach 200 yards (maybe) and shoots cheap ammo, look no further. The CNC gun parts upper is the best of its kind on the market. It is uses direct impingement instead of blow back so the recoil should not be choppy/slappy like the blow back guns. Also takes cheap 35 round ppsh-41 mags.

http://www.cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers

I have read that a CZ-52 with a four or five inch barrel and hand loads will get the .30 cal 85 grain bullet to 2000 fps, imagine what it will do with hand loads from a 16 inch barrel. That quick round should make your holdover have a less sensitive margin of error, which means you'll hit the target more often if your guessing how far away it is. Loaded with hollow point or round lead nose bullets, it will do great for a pistol round terminally.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html

Its definitely going to chew up any soft armor you put in front of it. Went through this helmet when 9mm, 45, and hot .357 would not.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm

Surplus ammo is DIRT cheap, so you can plink and practice without breaking the bank. 12 cents per round delivered.

http://ammoman.com/index.htm


Only down fall is that the upper and mag block together are $1000 bucks... but if I was going the pistol caliber carbine route, I couldn't think of anything better.

jchen76@gmail.com
05-18-2010, 8:36 PM
Shooting an AR 9mm is fun and cheap! Have an RRA AR 9mm upper, it's fun to shoot and accurate out to 50 yards without too much drop compensattion. The only reason I would grab it SHTF situation is to have a one caliber solution, Glock 26 as the other sidearm I wuld carry. Just like old west pioneers with winchester lever action in .45 lc with colt peace maker combination.
The fun of pistol caliber rifles is in the shorter barrel versions not available to us civies in California. If I ever hit the lotto and move to a NFA state, an HK MP5k in select fire is on my list of to do's.

J_Rock
05-18-2010, 10:50 PM
Solution, a 5.45 upper. The bang of 5.56 at half the price of 9mm :)