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View Full Version : "BCM is so fairly priced".... "Noveske is overpriced".... Common misconception!


TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 10:03 AM
Just did the math here:

$779 for BCM Standard 14.5" Middie w/ DD LITE 12" Handguard + $45 to permanently install FH + $139.95 for BCM BCG + $218 for front and rear Troy BUIS = $1,181.95

Noveske N4 Light = $1,295 (Already comes with all of those parts and has perm VORTEX FH)

1,295-1,181.95= $113.05 difference.... and the Noveske comes with their renowned hammer forged barrels and VLOT MUR upper!!




I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that BCM uppers are priced so much better than the competition and that Noveske's are overpriced..... Looks to me that you actually get more bang for your buck with Noveske. The math would be actually be even more in favor of Noveske if you got a BCM BFH with the MUR (which is a configuration they offer). Both are great uppers but I just wanted to throw this out there.

I will say that I am a little torn now. I really like the idea of having a 14.5in middie but the Noveske comes with the hammer forged barrel and VLTOR MUR upper!!

SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

freonr22
05-18-2010, 10:09 AM
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

anyone know the difference between m249 steel (Noveske) and B-11595E (bcm?)

Variable2147
05-18-2010, 10:14 AM
mine was more like: $439 for 16" middy upper w/FSB, free mid-length plastic handguards, $130 for bolt carrier assembly from riflegear.com, $110 for detachable carry handle.

total: $679

but i see your point, if you want the exact same setup as noveske with the 12" rail and flip sights, Noveske is a slightly better deal.

pacrimguru
05-18-2010, 10:17 AM
all things considered, a KAC SR-15 E3 upper is a great deal too.

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 10:24 AM
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

Variable2147
05-18-2010, 10:49 AM
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

I dont really know anything, but i personally prefer the mid-length with 1:7 twist for heavier grain loads and more muzzle velocity. also, i hear that middies are easier on the gas system than a carbine length.

I dont know about barrel forging, but the functional benefits of the MUR upper are nil.

fullspeed1
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
all things considered, a KAC SR-15 E3 upper is a great deal too.

Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!;)

STAGE 2
05-18-2010, 11:13 AM
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

Well, BCM offers a hammer forged barrel so if you want it, its there. As far as the MUR upper, its strictly a looks thing.

I say this with the caveat that its your weapon and your scratch so buy what you want, but I've never seen the point of having a 14" AR unless you live in a state that allows you to actually have a 14" AR. In reality you are making a choice between two 16" AR's, just one has better ballistics and a better chance of functioning reliably.

The reason that people rave about BCM being cheaper is that they are equal to colt quality wise, at a much cheaper price rifle for rifle. When you get into particular combinations or other manufacturers this may or may not be true.

Omega13device
05-18-2010, 11:21 AM
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

If you're a recreational shooter the benefits of any of those components are marginal at best, and it's more an issue of what you want and how much you want to spend.

In terms of functional benefits or lack thereof...

The 14.5" middy will arguably be a bit softer-shooting. It's not like .223 has a lot of recoil anyway, but one could argue that mid-length gas in a 14.5" will help with follow-on shots. In terms of reliability/wear and tear, I don't see this being an issue on a 14.5" carbine. That argument has more to do with over-gassed 16" carbines.

CHF is a nice-to-have feature but I wouldn't spend extra for it. A standard chrome-lined barrel from BCM will shoot better than most people can and will last 30-50k rounds if not more. If you can afford the ammo to shoot out that barrel, then the cost of replacing the barrel is not meaningful.

I would get a MUR if I were building a precision rifle with a magnified optic for long-distance shooting. Otherwise it makes no difference functionally.

JayBeeJay
05-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!;)

What more you want that's ready to drop on a lower and shoot. Front/rear flip ups, bcg, ch is all included. Mid-length KAC 16" upper shiet I'm on it for my next build.

-hanko
05-18-2010, 11:58 AM
SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper??
I need more info: What are your group sizes at 100 yds...no sandbags, no bench rest...how do you shoot standing up??

-hanko

pacrimguru
05-18-2010, 12:25 PM
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!;)

sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.

esskay
05-18-2010, 1:25 PM
sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.

I think the theme of this thread is, when comparing pricing for items, make sure to do an apples to apples comparison and also assess whether certain features are worthwhile to you or not. The KAC upper does sound pricey at first but when you look deeper, it comes loaded with a lot of accessories (even some rail panels not mentioned above) and a bunch of additional features. You just have to decide what that's worth to you.

And I think that was the OP's point -- compare pricing for similar configurations. Even then, there will be some differences and then you have to decide what those are worth to you.

Faldeez, what do you intend to do with this upper? That might help folks give you feedback/ideas. Generally speaking, I am pretty in line with what Omega was saying.

ar15barrels
05-18-2010, 1:40 PM
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!;)

http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/product_info.php?products_id=275&cPath=13#googlebase

$1310 WITH the KAC sights, E3 bolt and a URX II rail, yeah, that actually is a good deal compared to the Noveske.

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 1:42 PM
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed :D). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially with the ammo ban coming up in 2011 that might make it harder to choose which type of ammo you can get your hands on for a good price. Also a little discouraging for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far :)

Sick Boy
05-18-2010, 1:51 PM
Damn you all, stop talking about awesome upper, I don't have the money and still need to get my 6.8 upper back from Randall and finish that build. :hint,hint:

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 1:53 PM
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed :D). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far :)
I have an H buffer for my mid length that I've shot just about every brand of ammo out of. I have not had issues with any of it. I am using cheap tula now for large quantity shooting while running a ratio 100/300 rounds of federal or pmc to save up the brass for reloading. $120 for a short day of shooting just brass won't work for me. Once I have about 2000 brass cases saved I will only be shooting the reloads

esskay
05-18-2010, 1:57 PM
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed :D). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far :)

I think you said BCM was ~$100 cheaper, don't they have a configuration with a carbine length gas system? Would that be even cheaper from BCM?

Which flash hider does the BCM come with? It's probably fine (vs the Vortex)

Didn't quite catch the part about midlength gas on a 14.5 bbl, yeah, personally I'd probably stick with a carbine length gas system on a 14.5". On a 16" midlength gas for sure, no downsides I can see and all upside. (well except maybe for availability of replacement midlength gas tubes if SHTF! ;))

However, I would add that I prefer to be able to service my weapons, so I only have a 14.5" barrel with perm muzzle attachment on a system like the MRP where I can remove the barrel. I'd think even more carefully about this as you note this is potentially a SHTF build. If you're worried about potential malfs from "battlefield pickup" ammo, then perhaps you should worry about how you'd grind off a permanently attached flash hider if you need to service your weapon after SHTF.

Also note some small differences in the BCG from Bravo vs Noveske (see the Google Spreadsheets link someone posted above).

Just some more thoughts to further confuse you. :)

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 2:03 PM
I have an H buffer for my mid length that I've shot just about every brand of ammo out of. I have not had issues with any of it. I am using cheap tula now for large quantity shooting while running a ratio 100/300 rounds of federal or pmc to save up the brass for reloading. $120 for a short day of shooting just brass won't work for me. Once I have about 2000 brass cases saved I will only be shooting the reloads

Is it a 16in barrel? the only time BCM mentions it is for their 14.5 middies

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 2:10 PM
eskay now im really confused!:eek:

No, BCM carbine length is the same price. They use an A2 FH

Man, the kac sure does seem nice too..... ugh! I wish there was a gun gypsie with a crystal ball that could just tell me what my perfect gun would be because I sure don't have any idea

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 2:14 PM
I don't know, I think they are both a little overpriced. That just makes people want them more.

Don't get me wrong. Both offer very high quality products and I like them. However, there is no denying a decent chunk of the sticker price on both brand's products is about paying for the name. They are not the only brands guilty of this and I certainly am not going to blame them for making a living. I am just saying, BCM is hardly "so fairly priced". There are other brands of equal or greater value/quality for less money. That does not mean I wouldn't buy their products. Heck, I even sell a couple of their products. Some people want to pay for name. Sometimes I myself want to pay for a name. Nothing wrong with that.

Given a choice between BCM and CMMG, I would go with CMMG.

Given a choice between Noveske and KAC (as mentioned above) I would go with KAC.

Still, it can get more complicated than that. Sometimes one has the setup you want right that minute while you would have to wait for something else. So you pay a little more in order not to have to wait. Nothing wrong with that either.

Josh3239
05-18-2010, 2:22 PM
What are the other brands that are better quality for less money? Colt, BCM, DD, and LMT are easily the top dogs and Noveske is tipping at their heels. Bushmaster? Armalite? CMMG? Those guys don't even come close. Not saying they make bad stuff, it just isn't in the same league as those guys.

I don't know, I think they are both overpriced

Don't get me wrong. Both very high quality uppers and rifles and I like them. However, there is no denying a decent chunk of the sticker price on both brand's products is about paying for the name. They are not the only brands guilty of this and I certainly am not going to blame them for making a living. I am just saying, BCM is hardly "BCM is so fairly priced". There are other brands of equal or greater value/quality for less money. That does not mean I wouldn't buy their products. Heck, I even sell a couple of their products.

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 2:26 PM
josh you don't think noveske and kac are at par with DD, LMT, BCM and Colt? Why?

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 2:34 PM
Josh,

I have to disogree.

KAC is definately on par if not better than Noveske (as Valkrye Tactical explains above). I would definately prefer an SR-15 or SR-16 upper to a Noveske, but they are not always easy to find and usually only available in a few configurations. Until recently KAC focused on complete rifles, and not uppers and they are still a minor part of their business. So Noveske has them beat on variety. I would also say LMT is pretty much neck and neck with Noveske, though they do offer some traditional mid-level stuff their high-end stuff is right on par. Just because a company offers some mid-level products does not devalue their high-end products.

As for BCM, their are a lot of companies right on par with them, many of which you listed and said were not. I do not see anything all that special about BCM. Sure they have DPMS and Bushmaster beat hands down. But not CMMG. CMMG is apples to apples the same with them with regards to the quality of their products, they just have a lousy marketing department so you can't tell what they have (their website is crap). They offer some entry-level stuff but they also offer some high-end stuff that surpasses anything I see on BCM's website (then again maybe they have stuff not listed as well). CMMG has jumped through hoops for me when and if anything goes wrong, while I wasn't impressed at all with BCM's service in comparisson. So it is all very subjective.

All that said...this is a lot like arguing whether Ferrari is better than Porsche. At some point it is simply a matter of opinion. Personally I would choose the Ferrari, but my stepfather would have (and did) gone for the Porsche every single time.
The same holds true with peoples choices in firearms, parts, and accessories.

The truth is we should count ourselves darn lucky we can splurge on any of these rifles. They are all pretty darn cool.

esskay
05-18-2010, 3:38 PM
Josh,

I have to disogree.

KAC is definately on par if not better than Noveske (as Valkrye Tactical explains above). I would definately prefer an SR-15 or SR-16 upper to a Noveske, but they are not always easy to find and usually only available in a few configurations. Until recently KAC focused on complete rifles, and not uppers and they are still a minor part of their business. So Noveske has them beat on variety. I would also say LMT is pretty much neck and neck with Noveske, though they do offer some traditional mid-level stuff their high-end stuff is right on par. Just because a company offers some mid-level products does not devalue their high-end products.

As for BCM, their are a lot of companies right on par with them, many of which you listed and said were not. I do not see anything all that special about BCM. Sure they have DPMS and Bushmaster beat hands down. But not CMMG. CMMG is apples to apples the same with them with regards to the quality of their products, they just have a lousy marketing department so you can't tell what they have (their website is crap). They offer some entry-level stuff but they also offer some high-end stuff that surpasses anything I see on BCM's website (then again maybe they have stuff not listed as well). CMMG has jumped through hoops for me when and if anything goes wrong, while I wasn't impressed at all with BCM's service in comparisson. So it is all very subjective.

All that said...this is a lot like arguing whether Ferrari is better than Porsche. At some point it is simply a matter of opinion. Personally I would choose the Ferrari, but my stepfather would have (and did) gone for the Porsche every single time.
The same holds true with peoples choices in firearms, parts, and accessories.

The truth is we should count ourselves darn lucky we can splurge on any of these rifles. They are all pretty darn cool.

There are some objective criteria that one can examine in comparing these various manufacturers. The link posted earlier compiles a bunch of them:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

Each person can make their own determination on how much importance they place on each.

KAC is not listed on that spreadsheet, but is certainly considered a top tier company, not sure if anyone has similar data on their products.

fullspeed1
05-18-2010, 3:48 PM
sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.

Thank you, I have now been enlightened. Would this particular upper allow me to shoot like Chris Costa?:rolleyes: Going back to the OP, The BCM upper options seem somewhat limitless. The specs, By comparison are all good, And for the prices you can't seem to go wrong.

esskay
05-18-2010, 4:13 PM
Thank you, I have now been enlightened. Would this particular upper allow me to shoot like Chris Costa?:rolleyes: Going back to the OP, The BCM upper options seem somewhat limitless. The specs, By comparison are all good, And for the prices you can't seem to go wrong.

Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.

Omega13device
05-18-2010, 4:17 PM
But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Just run a regular carbine buffer. But if it makes you that anxious get a 14.5" carbine instead.

Here's the thing. They will all go "bang" when you pull the trigger. They will all put a round downrange more accurately than most people can. At a certain level of quality, all the arguing over which barrel or rail is "better" is a waste of time and you have to decide what works for YOU. All of the higher-end stuff is plenty good for what you're talking about.

When you go to a carbine class you'll see every configuration under the sun. So there is no "right" or "best" setup, only what's best for YOU. I see more failures from lack of lube and bad ammo than anything else. What does that tell you?

ar15barrels
05-18-2010, 4:22 PM
Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.

Damn, I thought I was the only one that this happened to!

:rofl2:

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 4:22 PM
If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences

Ruiner
05-18-2010, 4:24 PM
If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag/s&w for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences

You forgot KAC and Sabre ;)

Omega13device
05-18-2010, 4:48 PM
If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences
I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 4:52 PM
I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.

While that is as true as it can get, I would rather have both. All the training wont do jack if you have a vital issue and no backup. I have seen nothing from stag that would put me in a situation where I wouldn't trust my life to it. Now would I take it to war? probably not. I believe it is more than capable, but would rather take my chances with a rifle that is tried and true with better qc.

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 4:55 PM
You forgot KAC and Sabre ;)

I was making a roundabout statement, but yes sabre and kac as well. although Sabre would fall as the last of my choices on that list. Great barrels, but it's starting to appear that they are letting quality slide a hair

fullspeed1
05-18-2010, 5:01 PM
Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.

But would that dense 5 o'clock be made of Kevlar?;)

ar15barrels
05-18-2010, 5:02 PM
But would that dense 5 o'clock be made of Kevlar?;)

It makes you grow chuck norris hair.
Everyone knows that chuck norris hair is bulletproof... :rolleyes:

professorhard
05-18-2010, 5:06 PM
If you want relentless reliability and top notch workmanship, just bite the bullet and get the best there is, Del-Ton.

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 5:10 PM
If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences

We are going to have to agree to disagree on CMMG. They have NEVER let me down, and the specs are right on par with BCM. Where as BCM has dropped the ball on me several times and I have been disappointed with what I received. Specs wise, they are great. Service and fallow through, they lose points with me - based on my own personal experiences. I am not knocking them. They have had a huge boom in demand and are doing their best to keep up. But they lose a lot of points in my book for that. If you have had better luck, and they earned you loyalty...then great, good for you. I was not so lucky. that said, I still carry a couple of their products in my store. They make great stuff.

I am not sure where you guys are getting the idea that they do a better job building or testing their stuff. My experience has been the exact opposite. On paper maybe...but in actual fact...I just haven't seen it. Again, maybe I just had a string of bad luck with them. But I was treated like a number when I had a problem - and nothing ticks me off more than attitude from somebody when they screw up. Screwing up is fine, so long as you fix it and don't give me a tude about it. CMMG has always gone WAY out of their way when issues come up to get it fixed, and always with a great attitude. They make me as a dealer, look good. Last thing I want to do is argue with a manufacturer or supplier about fixing a problem for my customer, especially when they are clearly to blame. BCM eventually fixed the few issues that came up, but it was no wear near as hassle free as getting CMMG to solve problems.

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 5:13 PM
I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.

+1 on the importance of training. Sacramento natives and those close by might want to check out Stone Cobra Tatical for some great training that won't break the bank.

Omega13device
05-18-2010, 5:18 PM
While that is as true as it can get, I would rather have both.
You think you get what I'm saying, but you don't.

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 5:38 PM
You think you get what I'm saying, but you don't.
How do you figure that I don't? If you don't know how to use it effectively, it doesn't matter what you have. We know a guy that buys guns just to have them. He likes the "power" it gives him..... yet he has only been shooting once in his life. So it would be pretty stupid to say that because he has many high quality guns, he carries an advantage in a SHTF situation. Training is most fundamental, BUT if you can have the training and the better equipment you are less likely to have issues

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 5:41 PM
I just want to say I love you guys! Thanks for all the help, CGN is the sh*t. Period.

Omega13device
05-18-2010, 6:08 PM
How do you figure that I don't? If you don't know how to use it effectively, it doesn't matter what you have.

Ok now I see that you get it.

In your earlier comment you kept bringing it back to the gear: "I would rather have both". That was not the point.

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 6:17 PM
Ok now I see that you get it.

In your earlier comment you kept bringing it back to the gear: "I would rather have both". That was not the point.

Yeah I know, maybe it came out wrong, I was simply implying that I would rather have both if possible. On a tight budget, i'll take the lesser gun + more ammo and training. I'll take a del-ton and my experience vs. his sig 556 and his very limited experience any day. Hope that clears it up. lol

TacticalChihuahua
05-18-2010, 6:37 PM
Has KAC's BCG been proven to work as well as traditional BCGs? I ask because people always complain, for example, about piston systems not having proven themselves yet

cal3gunner
05-18-2010, 6:45 PM
...

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 6:45 PM
Many piston systems seem to suffer from carrier tilt, but I couldn't tell you one way or the other on the KAC

Endless
05-18-2010, 9:10 PM
Just did the math here:

$779 for BCM Standard 14.5" Middie w/ DD LITE 12" Handguard + $45 to permanently install FH + $139.95 for BCM BCG + $218 for front and rear Troy BUIS = $1,181.95

Noveske N4 Light = $1,295 (Already comes with all of those parts and has perm VORTEX FH)

1,295-1,181.95= $113.05 difference.... and the Noveske comes with their renowned hammer forged barrels and VLOT MUR upper!!




I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that BCM uppers are priced so much better than the competition and that Noveske's are overpriced..... Looks to me that you actually get more bang for your buck with Noveske. The math would be actually be even more in favor of Noveske if you got a BCM BFH with the MUR (which is a configuration they offer). Both are great uppers but I just wanted to throw this out there.

I will say that I am a little torn now. I really like the idea of having a 14.5in middie but the Noveske comes with the hammer forged barrel and VLTOR MUR upper!!

SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

Why limit yourself to only Noveske and BCM? Throw HK, Colt, LMT, and DD in the mix too.

And the complete higher end complete Noveske AR15s are overpriced IMO. $2500 VS your BCM at $1200. More than double.

NiteQwill
05-18-2010, 9:16 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree on CMMG.

In no way is CMMG on the same level as BCM. Where did this come from?

BCM is vastly superior in build and testing.

But this is off topic... :p ;)

esskay
05-18-2010, 9:20 PM
Has KAC's BCG been proven to work as well as traditional BCGs? I ask because people always complain, for example, about piston systems not having proven themselves yet

I don't have one so can't comment personally, but KAC has made specific tweaks to address specific issues in the standard BCG, it's not a completely different system.

For instance, the part of the bolt where the cam pin goes is a known vulnerable area (Jim Smith described it in a class as the achilles heel of the AR's bolt and prone to cracking). KAC reduced the diameter of the cam pin so the bolt is thicker where it is most likely to break.

I'm sure you've read about enhanced extractor kits (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20%203pack.htm) (stronger spring, o-ring, etc) to improve standard AR extractors. So, KAC redesigned their extractor.

etc...

Noah3683
05-18-2010, 9:21 PM
In no way is CMMG on the same level as BCM. Where did this come from?

BCM is vastly superior in build and testing.

But this is off topic... :p ;)

That was my point as well, but hey different strokes for different folks i guess

esskay
05-18-2010, 10:20 PM
But would that dense 5 o'clock be made of Kevlar?;)

Odd that you mention that. It didn't occur to me at the time, but now I that I think about it when I got home after that shooting session, I went to shave off that unusually dense scruff and broke not one but several razors... I guess that would explain it! ;)

MotherGunner
05-19-2010, 12:57 PM
I wonder how come no one has mentioned the new RifleGear uppers. From what I can tell (and I could be wrong) BCM does not make a carbine length CHF upper. All RifleGear uppers have impressive specs and they are CHF. Not that CHF is the defacto descriminator, but if it came down between BCM and RifleGear I would probably go with RifleGear.

/end 2 cents

ar15barrels
05-19-2010, 1:01 PM
From what I can tell (and I could be wrong) BCM does not make a carbine length CHF upper.

That's a GOOD thing.
Midlength gas system > carbine length gas system.

Arteel
05-19-2010, 1:12 PM
Even on on 14.5" barrel?

That's a GOOD thing.
Midlength gas system > carbine length gas system.

Mute
05-19-2010, 1:18 PM
Even on on 14.5" barrel?

Theoretically yes, but practically I haven't found much difference.

ar15barrels
05-19-2010, 2:02 PM
Even on on 14.5" barrel?

yes.

TacticalChihuahua
05-19-2010, 2:14 PM
I think I'm pretty much sold on the Knight's SR-15 E3. Might even have cut down to a 14.5 with perm FH (or fsc comp) after I get it!

As far as lower goes it seems like the Knight's lower for the SR-15 is pretty expensive at $700 (that's before FFL fee, DROS, and shipping)..... Also don't know that I need all the ambi controls.

I was thinking of just going down to rifle gear and seeing how the upper matches up with different lowers. But I'm leaning toward a mega lower with sopmod stock, G and R tactical LPK and possibly a Geissele trigger.

Any thoughts?

professorhard
05-19-2010, 2:16 PM
I think I'm pretty much sold on the Knight's SR-15 E3. Might even have cut down to a 14.5 with perm FH (or fsc comp) after I get it!

As far as lower goes it seems like the Knight's lower for the SR-15 is pretty expensive at $700 (that's before FFL fee, DROS, and shipping)..... Also don't know that I need all the ambi controls.

I was thinking of just going down to rifle gear and seeing how the upper matches up with different lowers. But I'm leaning toward a mega lower with sopmod stock, G and R tactical LPK and possibly a Geissele trigger.

Any thoughts?

Can't get a KAC AR-15 lower in CA, they are listed AWs.

Ruiner
05-19-2010, 2:40 PM
I think I'm pretty much sold on the Knight's SR-15 E3. Might even have cut down to a 14.5 with perm FH (or fsc comp) after I get it!

As far as lower goes it seems like the Knight's lower for the SR-15 is pretty expensive at $700 (that's before FFL fee, DROS, and shipping)..... Also don't know that I need all the ambi controls.

I was thinking of just going down to rifle gear and seeing how the upper matches up with different lowers. But I'm leaning toward a mega lower with sopmod stock, G and R tactical LPK and possibly a Geissele trigger.

Any thoughts?

The SR15 E3 has a midlength gas system thats slightly longer than the usual armalite specification midlength systems. I'm not sure how cutting it down to 14.5" will affect it. I'm sure Randall will chime in :D

sleepur606
05-19-2010, 2:42 PM
all things considered, a KAC SR-15 E3 upper is a great deal too.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~zuses1/i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

Do you give a discount to people that buy from you frequently? I like getting little packages in the mail from Duarte... :D

epic4444
05-19-2010, 3:01 PM
thats why i didnt much consider BCM and got my Noveske, Noveske's quality barrels along with great features and stellar customer service, exactly what im looking for in my Uppers.

tacticalcity
05-19-2010, 3:11 PM
In no way is CMMG on the same level as BCM. Where did this come from?

BCM is vastly superior in build and testing.

But this is off topic... :p ;)

As a dealer who sells and uses both side by side, with uppers with the exact same high-end specs, I am sorry to say that has NOT been my experience. I have been much happier with CMMGs work, and customer service.

I revised my earlier to post to expand on what I was trying to say...here it is again just for you.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on CMMG. They have NEVER let me down, and the specs are right on par with BCM. Where as BCM has dropped the ball on me several times and I have been disappointed with what I received. Specs wise, they are great. Service and fallow through, they lose points with me - based on my own personal experiences. I am not knocking them. They have had a huge boom in demand and are doing their best to keep up. But they lose a lot of points in my book for that. If you have had better luck, and they earned your loyalty...then great, good for you. I was not so lucky. that said, I still carry a couple of their products in my store. They make great stuff.

I am not sure where you guys are getting the idea that they do a better job building or testing their stuff. My experience has been the exact opposite. On paper maybe...but in actual fact...I just haven't seen it. Again, maybe I just had a string of bad luck with them. But I was treated like a number when I had a problem - and nothing ticks me off more than attitude from somebody when they screw up. Screwing up is fine, so long as you fix it and don't give me a tude about it. CMMG has always gone WAY out of their way when issues come up to get it fixed, and always with a great attitude. They make me as a dealer, look good. Last thing I want to do is argue with a manufacturer or supplier about fixing a problem for my customer, especially when they are clearly to blame. BCM eventually fixed the few issues that came up, but it was no wear near as hassle free as getting CMMG to solve problems.

FYI: For my personal use I just received a 16" Stainless Steel 1/7 Twist Medium Contour Midlength Gas System Barrel from CMMG in Bead Blast finish. Looks amazing, and I am sure it will function flawlessly. Can't wait to get this latest custom upper of mine built and out on the range. Point being, like many of their products, this barrel is not advertised on their site. They make and sell lots of small run production items that are very high end. Perhaps you are unaware of them because their website sucks so badly. They really need to focus on marketing more.

Josh3239
05-19-2010, 3:33 PM
It seems most of your problem with BCM is in their CS, whatever happend that doesn't shed any light on the quality of their parts. In fact nothing in your post speaks about actual quality of the parts made. I don't know what happend there and I am not pointing fingers but I have heard excellent stories of Paul from BCM going above and beyond (not me personally because I've never had issues with their products). What I do know is that BCM makes their stuff closer to the TDP than CMMG. I know that all my bolt groups will be properly tested, staked and have the upgraded extractor. I know that the barrel will be better made and properly tested. Also, IIRC CMMG dremels their enhanced feedramps leaving the soft metal underneath the finish exposed. It isn't dangerous or anything, but it is lower quality.

CMMG customers always seem to be happy and perhaps their CS is better, I don't know. But I do know that BCM testing & evaluation carbines have seen many tens of thousands of rounds before crapping out. I've never heard of anyone using a CMMG half as hard as the BCM T&E rifles.

As a dealer who sells and uses both side by side, with uppers with the exact same high-end specs, I am sorry to say that has NOT been my experience. I have been much happier with CMMGs work, and customer service.

I revised my earlier to post to expand on what I was trying to say...here it is again just for you.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on CMMG. They have NEVER let me down, and the specs are right on par with BCM. Where as BCM has dropped the ball on me several times and I have been disappointed with what I received. Specs wise, they are great. Service and fallow through, they lose points with me - based on my own personal experiences. I am not knocking them. They have had a huge boom in demand and are doing their best to keep up. But they lose a lot of points in my book for that. If you have had better luck, and they earned your loyalty...then great, good for you. I was not so lucky. that said, I still carry a couple of their products in my store. They make great stuff.

I am not sure where you guys are getting the idea that they do a better job building or testing their stuff. My experience has been the exact opposite. On paper maybe...but in actual fact...I just haven't seen it. Again, maybe I just had a string of bad luck with them. But I was treated like a number when I had a problem - and nothing ticks me off more than attitude from somebody when they screw up. Screwing up is fine, so long as you fix it and don't give me a tude about it. CMMG has always gone WAY out of their way when issues come up to get it fixed, and always with a great attitude. They make me as a dealer, look good. Last thing I want to do is argue with a manufacturer or supplier about fixing a problem for my customer, especially when they are clearly to blame. BCM eventually fixed the few issues that came up, but it was no wear near as hassle free as getting CMMG to solve problems.

professorhard
05-19-2010, 3:41 PM
I think that CMMG is under rated, they make quality parts and I have run CMMG rifles hard without any failures. However, I would not go so far as to say they are better than BCM, which I find to be very high in quality and reliable as well.

keson
05-19-2010, 5:21 PM
I would have gotten a SR-15 from Jerry except I wanted my upper and lower to match so I went with Noveske instead :(

STAGE 2
05-19-2010, 5:47 PM
As a dealer who sells and uses both side by side, with uppers with the exact same high-end specs

According to all the 'charts' CMMG does not have the same specs as BCM. Nor have they been trouble free as evidenced by several posts on this forum. Quality is in the details, and BCM has rifles that people have run the piss out of with nary a problem. I havent seen any similar use of CMMG rifles. Not saying they are bad, but they aren't on the same level on either function or production of BCM.

till44
05-19-2010, 7:26 PM
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed :D). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially with the ammo ban coming up in 2011 that might make it harder to choose which type of ammo you can get your hands on for a good price. Also a little discouraging for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far :)

I have one of BCM's 14.5 middy, using just a standard buffer. I have put close to a 1000 rounds through it with no malfunctions, using all kinds of ammo. It has eaten everything from Wolf, Brown/Silver Bear, to TAP, Lake City, Remington, without a hiccup. My favorite upper now, real soft recoil and the 14.5 barrel with perm. attached flash suppressor is very light.

Noveske is great stuff, high quality and reliable. Saying that I think BCM still has them beat, and that BCM runs in quality with KAC and Colt, with Noveske, Sabre, and LMT right on their heels though.

only10x
05-20-2010, 1:18 AM
ill worry about all the little things that justify 1400 on an upper if i found myself in Iraq, Afghanistan or some other place where the difference between life and death could be determined by my equipment. luckily im just a recreational shooter. though NM service rifle is tempting.
of course if I had deep pockets i wouldnt blink and eye.
just my .02 cents misspent

zman
05-20-2010, 8:49 AM
Just did the math here:

$779 for BCM Standard 14.5" Middie w/ DD LITE 12" Handguard + $45 to permanently install FH + $139.95 for BCM BCG + $218 for front and rear Troy BUIS = $1,181.95

Noveske N4 Light = $1,295 (Already comes with all of those parts and has perm VORTEX FH)

1,295-1,181.95= $113.05 difference.... and the Noveske comes with their renowned hammer forged barrels and VLOT MUR upper!!

I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that BCM uppers are priced so much better than the competition and that Noveske's are overpriced..... Looks to me that you actually get more bang for your buck with Noveske. The math would be actually be even more in favor of Noveske if you got a BCM BFH with the MUR (which is a configuration they offer). Both are great uppers but I just wanted to throw this out there.

I will say that I am a little torn now. I really like the idea of having a 14.5in middie but the Noveske comes with the hammer forged barrel and VLTOR MUR upper!!

SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

You did your homework OP :thumbsup: For this particular example, the Noveske is the clear winner IMHO.

STAGE 2
05-20-2010, 9:29 AM
You did your homework OP :thumbsup: For this particular example, the Noveske is the clear winner IMHO.

I suppose it depends on what you define as winner. The BCM is still 100+ cheaper in virtually identical form. The problem here is what if I don't want those particular sights, or that particular flashhider. The beauty of a BCM is that I can get the best quality platform and burger king it (have it my way). So I can spend around 900 on the rifle and then have 400 left over to build it to my specs. Seems to me that this is the much better solution.

Chuntsman949
05-20-2010, 10:48 AM
I dunno at 850 the 14.5 inch basic noveske upper is a good deal.... add 175 for a rail and its hard to beat....

tacticalcity
05-20-2010, 11:15 AM
It seems most of your problem with BCM is in their CS, whatever happend that doesn't shed any light on the quality of their parts. In fact nothing in your post speaks about actual quality of the parts made. I don't know what happend there and I am not pointing fingers but I have heard excellent stories of Paul from BCM going above and beyond (not me personally because I've never had issues with their products). What I do know is that BCM makes their stuff closer to the TDP than CMMG. I know that all my bolt groups will be properly tested, staked and have the upgraded extractor. I know that the barrel will be better made and properly tested. Also, IIRC CMMG dremels their enhanced feedramps leaving the soft metal underneath the finish exposed. It isn't dangerous or anything, but it is lower quality.

CMMG customers always seem to be happy and perhaps their CS is better, I don't know. But I do know that BCM testing & evaluation carbines have seen many tens of thousands of rounds before crapping out. I've never heard of anyone using a CMMG half as hard as the BCM T&E rifles.

Well, your last sentence is pretty darn subjective. How could you possibly know how hard I run my CMMG rifle? I have customers in the Sandbox right now running CMMG uppers I sold them, without complaint or issue. I have sold to law enforcement officers, federal agents, and to private security contractors, all of whom use them in the real world. I don't know what you do with your rifle, but those guys definitely fire theirs in anger, routinely, and their lives depend on their rifles. CMMG has not failed them. So I do know people who run their CMMG rifles just as hard as people run BCM gear.

As for barrel quality, I find it hard to believe my 1/7 twist chrome lined barrel from BCM was any better than my 1/7 chrome lined barrel from CMMG. They are both equally accurate. They were made from the same material. I have since sold off my BCM upper so I cannot speak to longevity, but there have been zero issues that I know of with either. So I don't buy your barrel comment either. How could you possibly back that one up? It is pure opinion.

As for the testing being done, I do not remember the exact specifics but CMMG had a little speal about all the testing they do, sounded exactly like what you are saying BCM does. In fact one of the reasons people like CMMG over companies like DPMS and Bushmaster is the extensive testing the do. There is a post somewhere on CGN listing the exact testing CMMG does, but I could not find it or I would have linked to it.

Have to take your word on the feedramps, this is the first I have heard that complaint. I will look into it more before completely conceding the point, but I won't argue about it now. I'll give you that one for the time being.

I can tell you side by side my BCM Upper did not perform better than my CMMG Upper. I can tell you I am extremely hard on my gear and put them through the paces. Both performed amazingly well, and I had no complaints about either performance wise. I can tell you getting my CMMG Upper in my hands, on time, as promised was easy as pie. Ordering my BCM upper was a major hassle. First they had it and everything was fine. Then it never showed up. Then I called and got a voice mail. Then no one ever called me back. Then I sent several emails. A few weeks later I was told it was back ordered. Several months later it showed up. Being back ordered did not bother me. Ignoring me outright did. Take the time to tell me what is going on, and I will give you all the time in the world. Ignore me and I get pissed.

Later, several customers had problems with warranty issues, and ran into pretty much the same problems. A general lack of response, or respect from BCM. On the flip side of the coin, while getting somebody on the phone over at CMMG is just as difficult. They have always returned my call promptly, and if there is a problem - no matter what that problem is - they fix it no questions asked.

One example of just how great CMMGs customer service is. I got a detent stuck inside a lower. Totally my fault. I did something really dumb, so much so I don't want to embarrass myself by explaining it in detail. I could not get that detent out without damaging the lower. Everything I tried only made it worse. CMMG had me send them my lower. Rather than try and fix it (which I had probably made impossible by then), or say it was my fault so I am out of luck, they just sent me a brand new one. Time and time again have done things just like that for my customers. You cannot put a price on customer service like that.

When there is the problem, customer service is the ONLY thing you are going to care about. When you get treated like a number on a order of $500-$5000 you can get pretty heated. Especially when it happens more than once. I know going into it, I will NEVER have a problem like that if buy a product made by CMMG.

I am not saying BCM is a terrible company. I agree they make great products. I just do not agree with your assertion that their products are better than CMMG, and I can tell you with absolute certainty the warranty and customer service is better from CMMG.

My issue is not as much with your praising BCM, as much as it is with your knocking CMMG. I would suggest you simply do not have enough first hand experience with CMMG to know just how great a company they are, or just how great their products are. If BCM earned your loyalty, then that is great. CMMG clearly earned mine.


That said...

There is no question CMMG recently started offering some entry level stuff in order to compete in today's economy. They never used to offer 1/9 twist or non-chromelined products. Everything used to be 1/7 and chrome-lined by default. Not everyone can afford that. After years of complaints from the people wanting to spend peanuts for their rifles, CMMG started offering them products they could afford. That does not take away from their higher end line of products, or make them lesser in my mind. They still have the same high-end products, you just have to know how to distinguish between the entry-level and high-end stuff. The quality and attention to detail has not dropped. My 1/7 twist upper from last week is just as high-end as the same upper from four years ago. They are just offering something to the NOOBs now as well.

As I mentioned before, CMMG also has lots of smaller run stuff they do not advertise except to their dealers. The stainless steel 1/7 twist barrel I mentioned is an example of this. So you may not be aware of some of the higher-end products they make.

There is also no question CMMGs website sucks. It is confusing, missleading, and definately not a clear representation of the products they have. Somebody over there has a hardon for their new piston system and is pitching it left and right, while ignoring everything else. I have been very disapointed in their marketing...and tell them so routinely. BCM has them beat on the marketing front hands down.

Mute
05-20-2010, 11:27 AM
I've had first hand experience with CMMG as a company. I will not be doing any more business with them.

tacticalcity
05-20-2010, 12:09 PM
Wow, Mute. I am very sorry to hear that. If you are still having an issue I can refer you to my rep. and I am certain he will get the problem solved. Just send me a PM. He has yet to let me down. If the problem has already resolved itself, then all I can say is I am very sorry that happened to you.

Mute
05-20-2010, 9:00 PM
tacticalcity, that's very kind of you, but it's all in the past now. It's a customer service issue and not so much a product issue. That said, as far as the product itself. It is a fine product. I don't believe it's quite as good as the BCM, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it can't serve whoever buys one quite well. I've shot more than a few and they seem to work well.