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View Full Version : LWRC having rifle/tech in Jordan


Bongos
05-18-2010, 8:22 AM
Don't think this is a smart idea and posssibly in violation of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) as it's one of US's high tech design rifles

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions/sofex2010/sections/daily/day2/us-rifles-to-be-produced-.shtml

Group B
05-18-2010, 9:11 AM
I don't understand why the Jordanian Army is allowed to have anything more than rocks...

pacrimguru
05-18-2010, 9:19 AM
isn't jordan a u.s. ally?

patriot_man
05-18-2010, 9:21 AM
I thought they were

k1dude
05-18-2010, 9:25 AM
I don't understand why the Jordanian Army is allowed to have anything more than rocks...

Jordan has been our long time ally and have been working with us for peace with Israel for decades. They have long been our friend. King Hussein was a great man and a big fan of all things American. His son Abdullah is between a rock and a hard place. Since they're surrounded by fundamentalists, they have to tread carefully. They can't seem too pro-US and pro-peace with Israel or they become a big target themselves. Sadat and Hussein were smart men with a vision for mid-east peace. They just found themselves surrounded by maniacs.

Bongos
05-18-2010, 9:25 AM
isn't jordan a u.s. ally?

Jordan is an US Ally but so was Afganistan during the Soviet occupation (thank God the batteries died on those US Stinger Missiles..People forget Osama Bin Ladin was working with the CIA)... the point is the LWRC rifles are the highest tech rifles of this decade, with the dependabilityof the AK and the accuracy of the AR as well as the potency of the 6.8SPC bullet (over the 5.56).. the 7.62x51 (.308) was also mentioned in development, if in the future something does happen between relations, those things are going to be pointed at us.

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 9:27 AM
What makes LWRC so 'hi-tech'?
Good for LWRC for getting the sale.

pacrimguru
05-18-2010, 9:27 AM
LWRC isn't THAT high tech. good for a U.S. company to make a large sale. make that cash mang!

k1dude
05-18-2010, 9:31 AM
Jordan is an US Ally but so was Afganistan during the Soviet occupation (thank God the batteries died on those US Stinger Missiles..People forget Osama Bin Ladin was working with the CIA)... the point is the LWRC rifles are the highest tech rifles of this decade, with the dependabilityof the AK and the accuracy of the AR as well as the potency of the 6.8SPC bullet (over the 5.56).. the 7.62x51 (.308) was also mentioned in development, if in the future something does happen between relations, those things are going to be pointed at us.

And the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran wound up with a whole bunch of F-14 Tomcats back when they were the state of the art. It didn't amount to a hill of beans. I'd much rather face some LWRC small arms tomorrow than F-14's back in the day.

CHS
05-18-2010, 9:36 AM
LWRC uses some well-known and "high-tech" surface finishes in a lot of their components, but that doesn't make them "high-tech". They're more "high-end" than anything.

Without all the fancy finishes and surface hardening stuff they use, they're just another piston rifle, and pistons are definitely "low-tech".

Bongos
05-18-2010, 10:02 AM
Well I guess the US is so high tech that lots of people think the LWRC is low tech... most combatants the US military comes up against is armed with the AK47; a very reliable rifle as well as deadly out to 200 yards. The Soviet, seeing the potential accuracy and range of the 5.56x45 round, came out with a simular rifle, the AK74 with a new 5.56x39 round. The 5.56x39 though more accurate than the 7.62x39, the rifle design still hinders the round's accuracy. With the LWRC design exposed to the elements (meaning if for some reason this weapon was captured by an country not friends with the US and it's allies) the rifle will be taken apart, studied and implemented into a new weapon. But to each his own in thinking this is a good thing...

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 10:10 AM
Dude, if anyone wants to copy the LWRC, just order one. I'm assuming if an enemy has the ability copy and manufacture the weapon, they have agents in the US who can order it off the internets.

k1dude
05-18-2010, 10:34 AM
Well I guess the US is so high tech that lots of people think the LWRC is low tech... most combatants the US military comes up against is armed with the AK47; a very reliable rifle as well as deadly out to 200 yards. The Soviet, seeing the potential accuracy and range of the 5.56x45 round, came out with a simular rifle, the AK74 with a new 5.56x39 round. The 5.56x39 though more accurate than the 7.62x39, the rifle design still hinders the round's accuracy. With the LWRC design exposed to the elements (meaning if for some reason this weapon was captured by an country not friends with the US and it's allies) the rifle will be taken apart, studied and implemented into a new weapon. But to each his own in thinking this is a good thing...

Jordan has been buying lots of US military hardware since the 70's. Their missiles, missile defense systems, radar, and a bunch of other high tech stuff is mostly ours. We support our allies. Especially ones as consistantly faithful as Jordan.

-hanko
05-18-2010, 10:53 AM
And the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran wound up with a whole bunch of F-14 Tomcats back when they were the state of the art. It didn't amount to a hill of beans.
He did get the Tomcats, but he had no one to maintain them...useless in effect.

-hanko

-hanko
05-18-2010, 10:53 AM
Dude, if anyone wants to copy the LWRC, just order one. I'm assuming if an enemy has the ability copy and manufacture the weapon, they have agents in the US who can order it off the internets.
I'd be shocked if it hasn't already happened.

-hanko

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 10:57 AM
He did get the Tomcats, but he had no one to maintain them...useless in effect.

-hanko

Still rockin 24 of them.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5497/1iriafairforce0002ch.jpg

stag6.8
05-18-2010, 11:23 AM
After reading this thread....I specifically remember reading an article from LWRC about a year ago about them negotiating a big contract with a big agency in regards to the 6.8mm spc caliber( I thought it would be U.S. Army or a U.S. law enforcment agency)...but the article also stated that it was under tight wraps and they couldn`t discuss it any further. Now a year later its for jordan.... and to top things off.....Its for the 6.8 spc not the 5.56. By what I see the U.S. wants to push nato countries to upgrade to the 6.8 FIRST, and wheres the best place to do it? jordan (along with Israel). Then the U.S. army will have to follow suit. All in all.....IF the us army wants to break away from the 5.56 caliber and start using the 6.8 (which is much better)other countries has to start using it (ammo unity among nato countries)and give reports on the effectiveness of the new caliber(in a major military role, not just U.S.special forces). Then the cost of 6.8 ammo over here will come down because more ammo companies will be manufacturing it.

gun toting monkeyboy
05-18-2010, 12:13 PM
Still rockin 24 of them.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5497/1iriafairforce0002ch.jpg

Rocking, rolling, dragging. Whatever it takes for them to get it up to the top of a hill so they can roll it downhill at their targets.:43:

As for Jordan, they have been one of our best allies in the Middle East. King Hussian was one hell of a good guy. And his wife, the queen, and mother of the current King, is an American. Or at least she was. I don't know if she still is for political reasons. But still. They have stuck by us, and let us run all kinds of stuff out of and through their country and airspace. Besides, we are talking about rifles here. Not heat-seeking, radar guided, stealth bazookas with nuclear-tipped, poisoned projectiles, with a kung-fu grip. It is a freakin' rifle. Any idiot with a bit of know-how and some readily available power tools can set up a shop to make them. The Chinese and the Iranians turn out M16 clones by the hundreds of thousands. Why should we object to one of our allies spending money with a US firm to produce something that they could just as easily have gone somewhere else to get? And they are making them in 6.8 which means a couple of good things. First, even if these weapons are captured by "the bad guys", they can't get ammo for them as easily as they can 7.62x39, 5.56, or 5.45x39. Not nearly as may places make it. Second, it means that 6.8 is catching on in the real world. Which means that someday it may actually get picked up by a major power. Which means somday ammo may be much cheaper. I like that idea.

-Mb

stormy_clothing
05-18-2010, 12:45 PM
The US has field operational lasers that can shoot down projectiles. A 6.8mm sbr is hardly hi-tech.

Counting down till 30 cents per round wolf 6.8mm

Jpach
05-18-2010, 12:54 PM
Well I guess the US is so high tech that lots of people think the LWRC is low tech... most combatants the US military comes up against is armed with the AK47; a very reliable rifle as well as deadly out to 200 yards. The Soviet, seeing the potential accuracy and range of the 5.56x45 round, came out with a simular rifle, the AK74 with a new 5.56x39 round. The 5.56x39 though more accurate than the 7.62x39, the rifle design still hinders the round's accuracy. With the LWRC design exposed to the elements (meaning if for some reason this weapon was captured by an country not friends with the US and it's allies) the rifle will be taken apart, studied and implemented into a new weapon. But to each his own in thinking this is a good thing...

What?

IIRC the Soviets got boners for the 5.56 due to its alleged killing abilities, and created the 5.45x39. And BTW, the 5.45 is pretty accurate. Id say that its on par with 5.56 milsurp out of a chrome lined AR.

Bongos
05-18-2010, 1:46 PM
He did get the Tomcats, but he had no one to maintain them...useless in effect.

-hanko

Actually, no Avionics

-hanko
05-18-2010, 3:56 PM
Actually, no Avionics
...which would quickly eliminate the Phoenix system, not to mention a ton of other stuff;)

-hanko

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 6:10 PM
...which would quickly eliminate the Phoenix system, not to mention a ton of other stuff;)

-hanko

It is known that the Soviet Union obtained both the F-14 and the Phoenix missile for reverse-engineering from Iran. It is unclear if this was done by the Iranian Islamic Republic's government or by a defecting Iranian pilot. F-14 technology may have influenced development of the Soviet MiG-31 "Foxhound" or "Super Foxbat", and it seems very likely that the Phoenix had a strong influence on the Soviet "AA-9 Amos" AAM, since the two missiles closely resemble each other externally.

Iranian have full F-14 repair capabilities.

Its suppose to be in service until their new 'Sha***h' (just the name of the plane) comes online which is suppose to be end of 2010.

Know your enemy, don't just flippantly disregard them.

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 6:38 PM
The Middle East is a lot more complicated than that. Jordan is not Iran. Jordan is one of our closest allies in the region. I spent a decent chunk of my enlistment in Jordan and got to know the people, especially their military, pretty well. We've been selling them arms, and training their troops for decades. This is nothing new. They have come to our aid many, many times as far as letting us use their airspace and their bases when others would not. Stuff you won't get to read about in the paper or see on the news for a long time to come. This is simply us returning the favor. Jordan is not Syria, where the government are puppets to the clerics. The monarchy is very pro-American, and is in a struggle for the hearts and minds of their people against the clerics - a struggle which they are winning as it is one of the most progressive countries in the region. Fundamentalists make up a tiny percentage of their population, and comparitively speaking they have been doing an excellent job keeping them under control. Keeping the monarchy strong, and in power, and at the same time popular with their people is very much in our best interest. Not all muslim's are our enemy. You can't just group them all into one category like that. Jordan has proven itself time and time again to be our friend, in a place where we have very few.

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 7:22 PM
The Middle East is a lot more complicated than that. Jordan is not Iran. Jordan is one of our closest allies in the region. I spent a decent chunk of my enlistment in Jordan and got to know the people, especially their military, pretty well. We've been selling them arms, and training their troops for decades. This is nothing new. They have come to our aid many, many times as far as letting us use their airspace and their bases when others would not. Stuff you won't get to read about in the paper or see on the news for a long time to come. This is simply us returning the favor. Jordan is not Syria, where the government are puppets to the clerics. The monarchy is very pro-American, and is in a struggle for the hearts and minds of their people against the clerics - a struggle which they are winning as it is one of the most progressive countries in the region. Fundamentalists make up a tiny percentage of their population, and comparitively speaking they have been doing an excellent job keeping them under control. Keeping the monarchy strong, and in power, and at the same time popular with their people is very much in our best interest. Not all muslim's are our enemy. You can't just group them all into one category like that. Jordan has proven itself time and time again to be our friend, in a place where we have very few.


But Jordan doesn't fly F-14's?

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 8:18 PM
Granted it has been a long time, but they flew F-5 Tigers back when I was there. The F-5 is basically a beefed up T-38 trainer with guns. Not exactly impressive by our standards.

We found them to be very ammusing and were peaking inside the cockpits and checking them out in detail, which really ticked off their security...but the base commander was insistant on showing off all the American equipment they had. Which made up about 2/3 of their arms. Some of their rifles were antiques, and they had extremely poor living standards. Enlisted troops slept on rolls on dirt floors. There were no glass in the windows for their sleeping areas, and the only running water was in what could loosely be called the cafeteria. Don't get me started on their restrooms. The hospital could be smelled a mile away. It was eye opening. Then again we were way off the beaten path. Closer to the cities they have better weapons and equipment and the quality of life is better. Amman, for an example, was stunningly beautiful by any standard and very upscale.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Northrop_F-5E_%28Tail_No._01557%29_061006-F-1234S-073.jpg/300px-Northrop_F-5E_%28Tail_No._01557%29_061006-F-1234S-073.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

sd1023x
05-18-2010, 8:32 PM
Air Force types are always leery about people poking around their planes, they touch and screw with stuff so they have to recheck the entire airframe to make sure nothing was monkeyed with.

F-5 is one of the most underrated planes of all time, perfect local air defense platform. Cheap, fast, great maneuverability and most importantly easy to maintain thus a very very high readiness rate.

That being said, Jordan never flew F-14, thus my comments were never directed at Jordan.

tacticalcity
05-18-2010, 8:48 PM
I was commenting on the OP, and pointing out that not all of the Middle East is the same. I was not commenting on your post in particular.

I was one of those "Air Force Types" and yes we do not like people near our planes. However, that was not why they were freaking out. Poking around the planes, and just about everything else was part of why we were there. They had no concept of how much more advanced we are, what our relationship is with them, or that we designed and built their aircraft in the first place. All they knew was the plane's insides were secrete and no one was allowed to look inside. Unlike our military, their is a huge difference between the officers and enlisted in the Jordan military. The officers actually had a decent education. The majority of the enlisted did not. Our presence made them very anxious at first. By the time I finished my second TDY there, they had become very comfortable with us. Eventually we could walk the entire base without an escort, and not worry about upsetting anyone. Nothing was off limits. Night and day different from when I first arrived. All in all, it was one of the best times of my life.

Don't get me started on Petra.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Petra_Jordan_BW_21.JPG/250px-Petra_Jordan_BW_21.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra,_Jordan

WW2Buff
05-18-2010, 9:48 PM
I'm going to Jordan this summer. Who knows, maybe I'll get a sneak peek?! Interesting reading all the comments. I was not aware of how strong an ally they were to us. Learn something new everyday! -Ben

k1dude
05-18-2010, 10:21 PM
And his wife, the queen, and mother of the current King, is an American.

I don't believe that's true. I think King Abdullah is the son of Queen Alia, who died in a helicopter crash. Queen Noor (former Lisa Halaby), has 2 sons and 2 daughters who are prince's and princesses.

gun toting monkeyboy
05-19-2010, 9:43 AM
I don't believe that's true. I think King Abdullah is the son of Queen Alia, who died in a helicopter crash. Queen Noor (former Lisa Halaby), has 2 sons and 2 daughters who are prince's and princesses.

That is entirely possible. But still, the royal family has some good ties to us.

Joe788
05-19-2010, 11:39 AM
Iranian have full F-14 repair capabilities.


They CLAIM to have full F-14 repair capabilities. They also claim there are no gays in Iran, and that earthquakes are caused by women with low cut shirts.

Iran's state run news agency claimed today that 45 U.S. soldiers were killed in the Taliban attack on Bagram Airbase.


Its suppose to be in service until their new 'Sha***h' (just the name of the plane) comes online which is suppose to be end of 2010.

Know your enemy, don't just flippantly disregard them.

It's more fun to flippantly disregard them.:D

Hoop
05-19-2010, 3:51 PM
The King of Jordan is an NRA member, gun collector, and motorcycle nut. I saw a picture of him at the Scottsdale gun club awhile back, apparently he's a big fan of .45 caliber pistols and is a good shot. IIRC he was in the states a little while ago trying to promote investment for some housing developments and irrigation projects.

Hoop
05-19-2010, 3:54 PM
I'd be shocked if it hasn't already happened.

-hanko

I have a couple magazines here with writeups about counter-sniper stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan, they caught several bad guys with remington 700 setups in 308 and 30-06. It's only a matter of time before our stuff ends up in their hands, it's just a question of how much and how often.

WW2Buff
05-19-2010, 5:53 PM
The King of Jordan is an NRA member, gun collector, and motorcycle nut. I saw a picture of him at the Scottsdale gun club awhile back, apparently he's a big fan of .45 caliber pistols and is a good shot. IIRC he was in the states a little while ago trying to promote investment for some housing developments and irrigation projects.

That's pretty damn cool! -Ben

limitdown
05-28-2010, 1:13 AM
We're finally exporting something that foreigners actually want to buy.....
Praise to LWRC for doing its part in helping the trade deficit.....

Quiet
05-28-2010, 2:06 AM
Since 1997, the Royal Jordanian Air Force has been using F-16s.
The F16 Falcons are for their elite squadrons.
The Mirage F1s are used by the rest of their squadrons.
The F5 Tigers are used by the reserves.

So, getting worked up over Jordan getting LWRC "high-tech" weapons, is kinda silly.

RJAF F16s
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Two_F-16_of_the_Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force.jpg/800px-Two_F-16_of_the_Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force.jpg

Paratus et Vigilans
05-28-2010, 6:35 PM
He did get the Tomcats, but he had no one to maintain them...useless in effect.

-hanko

The U.S. techs who serviced the avionics suite f***ed them up on their way out of town. That's why they were useless.

B Strong
05-28-2010, 7:13 PM
Don't think this is a smart idea and posssibly in violation of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) as it's one of US's high tech design rifles

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions/sofex2010/sections/daily/day2/us-rifles-to-be-produced-.shtml

Anything to do with Jordan and weapons manufacturing is going to be State department approved as a matter of course - Reed Knight and Don Walsh looked at both Jordan and Thailand for a production facility to produce new Stoners, and the problem wasn't DOS, it was money.