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surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 2:16 PM
Ok I have read tons of threads but have not found my answer yet. I'm sorry if I missed it.

I am building a featureless AR to keep in the back of my station wagon. Since I do not have a locked container can I separate the upper/lower and be legal?

Also, If i have the upper and lower separate can I leave my loaded magazine in the lower?

Last, would this be an OK configuration through school zones?

xxINKxx
05-17-2010, 2:27 PM
1) Im curious to why would you wanna build a gun just to keep in your car at all times? What if your car gets stolen, or broken into??

2) Im not 100% sure, But since the lower reciever is a firearm all by itself, thats why you have to dross it and use an FFL, I think having a loaded mag in it would still be considered a loaded weapon, or at least be very sketchy situation if ever stopped and you were checked out. Ide say keep the loaded mags seperate since thats legal.

asme
05-17-2010, 2:30 PM
As I understand it, it's not a school zone if you're reasonably unaware it's a school zone.

If an officer stops you and informs you it's a school zone, then leave the school zone.

If you live in a school zone, then it's a different story.

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 2:39 PM
1) Im curious to why would you wanna build a gun just to keep in your car at all times? What if your car gets stolen, or broken into??

2) Im not 100% sure, But since the lower reciever is a firearm all by itself, thats why you have to dross it and use an FFL, I think having a loaded mag in it would still be considered a loaded weapon, or at least be very sketchy situation if ever stopped and you were checked out. Ide say keep the loaded mags seperate since thats legal.

ink,

I don't really wish to go into my reasoning as to why I want a gun in my trunk. I just wish to protect my loved ones from bad people. Ca through its laws has limited my ability to do that so I'm looking for whatever options I have. Yes I am concerned about a gun being stollen from my car and will make every choice possible to limit that from happening. If I could get a CCW I would not have to keep a rifle in my trunk. Another way CA gun laws just help criminals. I too am not 100% sure about the lower and this is why I am asking here.

five.five-six
05-17-2010, 2:42 PM
I thought school zones only pertained to handguns.... probably wrong though

djleisure
05-17-2010, 2:43 PM
1) Im curious to why would you wanna build a gun just to keep in your car at all times? What if your car gets stolen, or broken into??

I don't know where the OP lives, but I live in LA and I keep a gun in my truck at all times. This is a volatile city and if anything goes wrong I do not trust the citizens within it. I will get back to my family no matter what and a gun will help me get there.

Now, as to the OP's question. First of all, learn to never say anything to the police and never allow a search of your vehicle. If nothing is in plain sight and you're not caught with drugs out in the open or some sh*t, then there is no reason a cop would ever see what is in your vehicle. Even if a cop did see something they thought was illegal, still keep your mouth shut and talk to a lawyer. You could have been going to the shooting range, or on a fishing trip, or who knows? The cop doesn't.

Second. You should probably get a discreet, locked container. Preferably something you can lock to the vehicle itself. I'm not sure if just separating the two parts will render it legal if it gets down to the nitty-gritty. If you do decide to just separate the two, then I personally would not keep a loaded mag in the separated lower either, but I have no idea what the legality is there, that's up to you.

Hopefully someone will chime in with some legal knowledge about the separated parts and loaded mag in the separated lower. I believe this has been brought up before, but it was in regards to having the loaded, separated lower in a locked container with the upper...

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 2:56 PM
Now, as to the OP's question. First of all, learn to never say anything to the police and never allow a search of your vehicle. If nothing is in plain sight and you're not caught with drugs out in the open or some sh*t, then there is no reason a cop would ever see what is in your vehicle. Even if a cop did see something they thought was illegal, still keep your mouth shut and talk to a lawyer. You could have been going to the shooting range, or on a fishing trip, or who knows? The cop doesn't.

Thaks DJ,

I'm very aware of my rights and trust me if it came to that my mouth is shut!!!

I do have a cargo cover so no one can see what is in the back of my wagon. So do I still need a locked container?

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 5:12 PM
still no solid answers.

stix213
05-17-2010, 5:25 PM
As I understand it, it's not a school zone if you're reasonably unaware it's a school zone.

If an officer stops you and informs you it's a school zone, then leave the school zone.

If you live in a school zone, then it's a different story.

School zones are nearly always posted on all streets with a big "school zone" sign. I'd expect passing one of those signs would constitute that you should be reasonably aware.

UserM4
05-17-2010, 5:30 PM
"Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1."

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php

Straight from the horse's mouth. Sounds pretty straight forward to me. What's the confusion?

IsaacGlass
05-17-2010, 5:32 PM
still no solid answers.

Try using the Calguns Google Search, I found one of many topics that would answer your question.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-114269.html

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=FORID:13%3BAH:left%3BCX:CALGUNS%252ENET%2520Cu stom%2520Search%3BL:http://www.google.com/intl/en/images/logos/custom_search_logo_sm.gif%3BLH:30%3BLP:1%3BKMBOC:% 23336699%3B&cx=002942649079446186749:lvhcymzonc4&adkw=AELymgUhICFOySxCEMYUbBedCnUMFPy9VwkpjMunsyCxI beD4eAwFmVvqIH4kvORru3HHonGk7Bm0Ua3YLe71cEG4dzmmbM CcRFNYGyivGoIDfxLNCTOK-0&boostcse=0&ei=s-3xS-mCDoqKsgPcq7n4Cw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA0QBSgA&q=Lock+Container&spell=1

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ACALGUNS%252ENET% 2520Custom%2520Search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.googl e.com%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Flogos%2Fcustom_search _logo_sm.gif%3BLH%3A30%3BLP%3A1%3BKMBOC%3A%2333669 9%3B&adkw=AELymgUhICFOySxCEMYUbBedCnUMFPy9VwkpjMunsyCxI beD4eAwFmVvqIH4kvORru3HHonGk7Bm0Ua3YLe71cEG4dzmmbM CcRFNYGyivGoIDfxLNCTOK-0&boostcse=0&q=Lock+Container+through+a+School+Zone&btnG=Search&cx=002942649079446186749%3Alvhcymzonc4

Scratch705
05-17-2010, 5:32 PM
locked container, just throw a padlock on the gun case. i mean you will have a gun case to hold the rifle right? so just lock it up. even as said above, is not needed by CA code.

kemper
05-17-2010, 5:35 PM
Now, as to the OP's question. First of all, learn to never say anything to the police and never allow a search of your vehicle. If nothing is in plain sight and you're not caught with drugs out in the open or some sh*t, then there is no reason a cop would ever see what is in your vehicle. Even if a cop did see something they thought was illegal, still keep your mouth shut and talk to a lawyer. You could have been going to the shooting range, or on a fishing trip, or who knows? The cop doesn't.


good advice.....i think as long as you are smart about it, you are right. hopefully you don't drive around with open containers, drugs, etc and a gun in your car. that would be a bad combo. but if you've got your gun out of sight and even if you get pulled over for a traffic stop, is the cop really going to have a reason to look inside?

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 5:49 PM
Try using the Calguns Google Search, I found one of many topics that would answer your question.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-114269.html

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=FORID:13%3BAH:left%3BCX:CALGUNS%252ENET%2520Cu stom%2520Search%3BL:http://www.google.com/intl/en/images/logos/custom_search_logo_sm.gif%3BLH:30%3BLP:1%3BKMBOC:% 23336699%3B&cx=002942649079446186749:lvhcymzonc4&adkw=AELymgUhICFOySxCEMYUbBedCnUMFPy9VwkpjMunsyCxI beD4eAwFmVvqIH4kvORru3HHonGk7Bm0Ua3YLe71cEG4dzmmbM CcRFNYGyivGoIDfxLNCTOK-0&boostcse=0&ei=s-3xS-mCDoqKsgPcq7n4Cw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA0QBSgA&q=Lock+Container&spell=1

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ACALGUNS%252ENET% 2520Custom%2520Search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.googl e.com%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Flogos%2Fcustom_search _logo_sm.gif%3BLH%3A30%3BLP%3A1%3BKMBOC%3A%2333669 9%3B&adkw=AELymgUhICFOySxCEMYUbBedCnUMFPy9VwkpjMunsyCxI beD4eAwFmVvqIH4kvORru3HHonGk7Bm0Ua3YLe71cEG4dzmmbM CcRFNYGyivGoIDfxLNCTOK-0&boostcse=0&q=Lock+Container+through+a+School+Zone&btnG=Search&cx=002942649079446186749%3Alvhcymzonc4

Yep! read through them. Didn't see an answer to if I separate the upper and lower do I not have to have a locked container or if I can keep the magazine in the lower. If I missed it I'm sorry.

IsaacGlass
05-17-2010, 5:57 PM
Does anyone know the legal liabilities for using a firearm in public domain (outside of your home) for personal defense?

UserM4
05-17-2010, 5:57 PM
Just an excerpt

PENAL CODE
SECTION 626-626.11


(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(2)When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=626-626.11

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 5:59 PM
Does anyone know the legal liabilities for using a firearm in public domain (outside of your home) for personal defense?

very aware.

IsaacGlass
05-17-2010, 6:01 PM
Yep! read through them. Didn't see an answer to if I separate the upper and lower do I not have to have a locked container or if I can keep the magazine in the lower. If I missed it I'm sorry.

Boy, you must be a speed reader, Im still reading through them. Keep in mind, what advice/suggestion you get here isnt legal advice. GL

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 6:04 PM
Boy, you must be a speed reader, Im still reading through them. Keep in mind, what advice/suggestion you get here isnt legal advice. GL

I had seen many of those before I posted.

Yes. I guess I had hoped someone already ran this past a lawyer and knew.

IsaacGlass
05-17-2010, 6:12 PM
I had seen many of those before I posted.

Yes. I guess I had hoped someone already ran this past a lawyer and knew.

Try the legal forum, most of the legal eagles may know of a thread containing a answer to your question.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=71

IsaacGlass
05-17-2010, 6:19 PM
FYI... One of the search link I provided had a thread that touch on the subject matter between Ca laws vs Federal law on lock container.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4187864

Look for Librarian #20 posting.

stix213
05-17-2010, 6:24 PM
"Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1."

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php

Straight from the horse's mouth. Sounds pretty straight forward to me. What's the confusion?

That's discussing California law. The law requiring long guns to be locked up in a case or gun rack is federal, so the CA state attorney general wouldn't be commenting on it.

stix213
05-17-2010, 6:33 PM
Just an excerpt

PENAL CODE
SECTION 626-626.11


(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(2)When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=626-626.11

Wrong law, you need the federal one for this issue:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

From the law:

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

djleisure
05-17-2010, 6:37 PM
I think you guys need to read the OP's question a little closer. He is asking about whether or not an AR-type rifle, that has the upper and lower separated is still considered a long gun or any kind of gun for that matter. I think he is pretty clear on the "locked container" part. I'm actually very curious about the answer as well, but I can't find any legal information one way or the other.

It is clear that for bullet-button reasons, a lower without an upper is not a centerfire rifle and thus does not need a BB (seeing as it could be used for a rimfire upper.) BUT is the lower still considered a long gun without the upper and therefore, does it need to be secured like a long gun?

stix213
05-17-2010, 6:39 PM
Well the law in question doesn't specify "long gun" but instead uses the term "firearm." Is a lower legally a firearm? If yes then it needs to be locked up I would think, but I am no lawyer, just a guy reading the law as written.

UserM4
05-17-2010, 6:42 PM
That sucks. So if you were say a high school kid that went duck hunting in the morning and parked your truck just off campus and LEO found you and your bud's unloaded shotguns and a few rounds of birdshot in there, you will be convicted for a federal offense?

djleisure
05-17-2010, 6:45 PM
That sucks. So if you were say a high school kid that went duck hunting in the morning and parked your truck just off campus and LEO found you and your bud's unloaded shotguns and a few rounds of birdshot in there, you will be convicted for a federal offense?
Yes, if they were not locked in a container. You would probably also be expelled from school, seeing as how this has already happened (and fairly recently.)

gasol1ne
05-17-2010, 6:49 PM
hate to seem ESL but what does "a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce" mean?

Cokebottle
05-17-2010, 6:51 PM
I thought school zones only pertained to handguns.... probably wrong though
Yes and no.

The California 626.9 only applies to handguns, but the Federal Gun Free School Zone law does apply to long guns.
The original GFSZ was shot down by the courts, and it was rewritten in it's present form. Hasn't been challenged yet.

But it's a Federal charge and not likely to be prosecuted by the local DA... even as nasty and underhanded as the DA and judge were to Theseus, he was ONLY charged with misdemeanor 626.9, 10 year firearms prohibition.
He was not charged with violation of 18 USC 922 (q) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html)

surfNshoot
05-17-2010, 6:56 PM
I think you guys need to read the OP's question a little closer. He is asking about whether or not an AR-type rifle, that has the upper and lower separated is still considered a long gun or any kind of gun for that matter. I think he is pretty clear on the "locked container" part. I'm actually very curious about the answer as well, but I can't find any legal information one way or the other.

It is clear that for bullet-button reasons, a lower without an upper is not a centerfire rifle and thus does not need a BB (seeing as it could be used for a rimfire upper.) BUT is the lower still considered a long gun without the upper and therefore, does it need to be secured like a long gun?

Yes Djleisure. This is what I'm asking. Thanks for clearing it up.

Veggie
05-17-2010, 7:29 PM
Keep it in an unlocked case with ammo in magazine next to it. But carry the penal codes that are relative to your situation.

xxINKxx
05-17-2010, 7:55 PM
Does anyone know the legal liabilities for using a firearm in public domain (outside of your home) for personal defense?

+ 1.. Thats kinda why I was confused on my post in #2 about why you would need a gun for your car...Is it legal to defend yourself out in the streets in public (law clearly says home or place of business is fine) Ive seen several posts about people keeping guns that stay in their vehicle at all times.

djleisure
05-17-2010, 8:18 PM
+ 1.. Thats kinda why I was confused on my post in #2 about why you would need a gun for your car...Is it legal to defend yourself out in the streets in public (law clearly says home or place of business is fine) Ive seen several posts about people keeping guns that stay in their vehicle at all times.
Maybe you should ask Reginald Denny what he thinks about it... ;)

xxINKxx
05-17-2010, 8:34 PM
Maybe you should ask Reginald Denny what he thinks about it... ;)

Well im sure he thinks it would be great to carry a weapon and use it since he got royally beat on the streets by 4 black guys durring the L.A Riots. But it doesnt answer the question about the laws on using a firearm out in public on the streets to defend yourself.

esskay
05-17-2010, 8:54 PM
I think you guys need to read the OP's question a little closer. He is asking about whether or not an AR-type rifle, that has the upper and lower separated is still considered a long gun or any kind of gun for that matter. I think he is pretty clear on the "locked container" part. I'm actually very curious about the answer as well, but I can't find any legal information one way or the other.

It is clear that for bullet-button reasons, a lower without an upper is not a centerfire rifle and thus does not need a BB (seeing as it could be used for a rimfire upper.) BUT is the lower still considered a long gun without the upper and therefore, does it need to be secured like a long gun?

I don't know the legal answer for this, but take a step back... if the choice is between having fully assembled rifle inside a locked container with separate magazine vs. having a rifle disassembled into upper & lower w/ mag inserted but not in a locked container ... then from a practical standpoint it would seem faster to quickly open a combination lock and load/deploy the rifle than to reassemble an upper & lower (esp with an inserted magazine sticking out of the lower), wouldn't it? Plus would you have a bare upper with exposed BCG sliding or banging around in the back of your wagon? How long before the BCG falls out the back of your upper? etc... I'd rather have the rifle assembled...

Librarian
05-17-2010, 9:40 PM
California, as noted, doesn't much care about long guns in school zones.

FEDS, however, do.

So, travelling through school zones, you must keep your long guns locked in a locking rack or in a locked case.

See the Calguns Foundation wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones).

In my opinion, leaving a loaded mag in the lower, separated or not, is a Bad Idea.

djleisure
05-18-2010, 9:48 AM
Well im sure he thinks it would be great to carry a weapon and use it since he got royally beat on the streets by 4 black guys durring the L.A Riots. But it doesnt answer the question about the laws on using a firearm out in public on the streets to defend yourself.
The law doesn't state that you have to be in your home to defend yourself. If you legally possess the firearm, in public or otherwise, then you have the right to defend yourself with it.

THE USE OF FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND PROPERTY

The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a simple list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury in a criminal case where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding use of firearms in self-defense.

Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body

The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Self-Defense Against Assault

It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she has reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer bodily injury. In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent great bodily injury or death. An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury.
It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so doing, the person may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury. Deadly force is only considered reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.
NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal penalties.

rc50cal
05-18-2010, 2:47 PM
hate to seem ESL but what does "a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce" mean?

That means that the law applies to any firearm manufactured by a company that sells its products in more than one state or country, or those manufactured by a foreign company, or to a firearm that was sold across state lines.

The law is worded that way so that Congress can use a power granted to it in the Constitution (Interstate Commerce Clause) to regulate something that it really has no business regulating.

motorhead
05-18-2010, 6:39 PM
i agree. i think you need to look at the definition of loaded. mag in lwr comes close. if i were you, i would opt for either a locking case (soft or hard) or a locking rack attached to the vehicle. i'm sure you could find or fab something approriate for your wagon.

vintagedude88
05-18-2010, 8:10 PM
Why would anyone want a mag in a lower with the upper separated?

For sure its faster to feed a mag in an empty gun than to try to attach an upper onto a loaded lower.

Just keep a loaded mag in the glove or console compartment and put your completed rifle covered in the back of your car. Legally, your car is a "locked container". That is unless its one of those "beaters" that you leave unlocked all over the place.

esskay
05-18-2010, 8:40 PM
Why would anyone want a mag in a lower with the upper separated?

For sure its faster to feed a mag in an empty gun than to try to attach an upper onto a loaded lower.

Just keep a loaded mag in the glove or console compartment and put your completed rifle covered in the back of your car. Legally, your car is a "locked container". That is unless its one of those "beaters" that you leave unlocked all over the place.

I agree on your comment on loading a mag vs. assembling the rifle, as I posted earlier.

However to your 2nd point, the OP was talking about a station wagon. The back of a station wagon (or SUV or Minivan) does not count as a "locked container" since it's not separated from the passenger compartment.

djleisure
05-19-2010, 9:46 AM
Why would anyone want a mag in a lower with the upper separated?

For sure its faster to feed a mag in an empty gun than to try to attach an upper onto a loaded lower.

Just keep a loaded mag in the glove or console compartment and put your completed rifle covered in the back of your car. Legally, your car is a "locked container". That is unless its one of those "beaters" that you leave unlocked all over the place.
This is incorrect. The locked trunk of a car that DOES NOT have access from the main passenger compartment can be used to satisfy the legal term of "locked container" - in any other case (that would require a locked container) you would actually need to use a separate, locked container inside the vehicle. This includes SUV's, Wagons, cars with unlockable pass-through compartments to the trunk.

Cobrafreak
05-19-2010, 10:07 AM
CA law on a minor 18 and under that gets your weapon and accidentally or purposely causes harm or death with it, guess who gets in as much trouble as said juvenile? The gun owner. Explain how your vehicle gun got stolen and see what happens. I would hate to see a brother get incarcerated due to someone else's crime.

pepsi2451
05-19-2010, 11:02 AM
CA law on a minor 18 and under that gets your weapon and accidentally or purposely causes harm or death with it, guess who gets in as much trouble as said juvenile? The gun owner. Explain how your vehicle gun got stolen and see what happens. I would hate to see a brother get incarcerated due to someone else's crime.

I think the law your thinking of only applies if you leave the gun somewhere that a child could get it. Like if your kid has access to your car and you leave a gun in there and he shoots someone you could be held liable. I don't have any kids if someone under 18 broke into my car and stole my gun that law wouldn't apply.

paul0660
05-19-2010, 11:32 AM
As I understand it, it's not a school zone if you're reasonably unaware it's a school zone.

If an officer stops you and informs you it's a school zone, then leave the school zone.

If you live in a school zone, then it's a different story.


This is a good way to get a ride out of the school zone. In the back seat. Cuffed.

mls343
05-19-2010, 12:21 PM
For me, I lean towards extra caution. When I pick up my kids from school, and we are on our way to backpack or camping trip, and I have a firearm in my car for that purpose, I park adjacent to the actual school to where I clear it by more than a 100 yards.

While I, like the OP, still do not have a 100% grasp on the law, I tend to make sure I'm compliant regardless.

The last thing I would want to do is lose my gun rights to a misinterpretation of the law - regardless of how innocent my intention or understanding.

http://leftcoastconservative.blogspot.com/2009/12/san-jose-man-arrested-for-unload-open.html

djleisure
05-19-2010, 12:35 PM
For me, I lean towards extra caution. When I pick up my kids from school, and we are on our way to backpack or camping trip, and I have a firearm in my car for that purpose, I park adjacent to the actual school to where I clear it by more than a 100 yards.

You're still 700 feet short of legal with that move. If you're going to do that, you might as well go for the full 1,000 feet. ;)

mls343
05-19-2010, 2:46 PM
Oops, I meant 1000 yards - about a block and a half away. Sorry, I can't type today...

surfNshoot
05-19-2010, 2:58 PM
Ok. Now that I have taken a few days to take it all in.

I agree with the ones that said leaving the mag in might be a bad idea although it seams we are not clear if it is legal or not. It is tough to put the upper on the lower when you have spring pressure going against you from the bullet in the mag hitting the BCG.

So this leaves me with still with a separate upper and lower or locked container. I do not want to install a locked container in my car for multiple reasons. First its just a pain in the *****. Second I don't want to be tied to the back of my car. I would rather be able to grab and go. Would keeping the rifle in a bag with a quick combo lock on the zippers be acceptable?

Although I appreciate everyones 2 cents on when I can use gun for self defense. Lets stay on the topic of the listed questions. I am very aware of when I can and can't use deadly force.

I have my girlfriend looking at past cases to see what she can find on this topic. Yes. she is a Lawyer.

djleisure
05-19-2010, 3:02 PM
Would keeping the rifle in a bag with a quick combo lock on the zippers be acceptable?

Yes, this would be perfectly acceptable and a fairly discreet method of transit for the grab-and-go situation (or storing it in a safe place when not needed in the car.)

IsaacGlass
05-19-2010, 3:20 PM
Ok. Now that I have taken a few days to take it all in.

I agree with the ones that said leaving the mag in might be a bad idea although it seams we are not clear if it is legal or not. It is tough to put the upper on the lower when you have spring pressure going against you from the bullet in the mag hitting the BCG.

So this leaves me with still with a separate upper and lower or locked container. I do not want to install a locked container in my car for multiple reasons. First its just a pain in the *****. Second I don't want to be tied to the back of my car. I would rather be able to grab and go. Would keeping the rifle in a bag with a quick combo lock on the zippers be acceptable?

Although I appreciate everyones 2 cents on when I can use gun for self defense. Lets stay on the topic of the listed questions. I am very aware of when I can and can't use deadly force.

I have my girlfriend looking at past cases to see what she can find on this topic. Yes. she is a Lawyer.

I and many here would be very interested to hear what your lawyer girlfriend findings outcomes are. Please do report back.
By the way, what type of station wagon do you have?

surfNshoot
05-19-2010, 5:28 PM
I and many here would be very interested to hear what your lawyer girlfriend findings outcomes are. Please do report back.
By the way, what type of station wagon do you have?

I will post the findings or lack of findings. I have a subaru wagon. Not one with aftermarket items that scream for attention.

Cokebottle
05-19-2010, 8:02 PM
I have a subaru wagon.
I'm sorry




:D

vintagedude88
05-19-2010, 8:26 PM
This is incorrect. The locked trunk of a car that DOES NOT have access from the main passenger compartment can be used to satisfy the legal term of "locked container" - in any other case (that would require a locked container) you would actually need to use a separate, locked container inside the vehicle. This includes SUV's, Wagons, cars with unlockable pass-through compartments to the trunk.

Most cars nowadays have folding rear seats for increased cargo space. In many cars the seats are not locked and can be folded with a simple tug on a lever or in the case of my Chrysler a pull strap.

So based on what you said legally there's no difference between a wagon/SUV and a conventional sedan. However I've been told that a simple luggage lock on the zipper of a gun case will suffice as a locked container, but despite that, I always have my gun locked with a gun lock through the mag well and in front of the bolt just to be safe.

So here's a question; Can I keep a loaded mag in the trunk by the "locked" gun? Or can I keep a loaded mag in the side zippered pouch of the gun case while the gun is in the case with the zipper locked with a simple luggage lock?

Cokebottle
05-19-2010, 8:34 PM
I always have my gun locked with a gun lock through the mag well and in front of the bolt just to be safe.
That lock is worthless for anything other than covering your butt should a child "find" your gun at home and show it to his friends.
No lock and he shoots, you're in worse trouble than he is.
Lock and he still figures out how to shoot it, you've got a bit of CYA going since it's a DOJ-approved child safety device.

The lock has absolutely no legal bearing on the "locked" status of a gun being transported. The law does not say "locked gun", the law says "within a secure, locked container".
So here's a question; Can I keep a loaded mag in the trunk by the "locked" gun? Or can I keep a loaded mag in the side zippered pouch of the gun case while the gun is in the case with the zipper locked with a simple luggage lock?
Yes.

The law does not address transportation of ammunition other than it cannot be taken onto school property (and there is no exemption for ammo in a locked container).
The law addresses transport of a loaded firearm.
Unloaded is unloaded.
You can have the gun literally buried in live ammo and it's legal as long as none of that ammo is in the chamber or magwell.