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badicedog
05-17-2010, 9:10 AM
deleted

KING_PALM
05-17-2010, 9:23 AM
MYOB!!!!!!

unless he made your 6" wrong at subway you should stay out of it.

Bug Splat
05-17-2010, 9:28 AM
MYOB!!!!!!

Agreed. Its a stupid law IMO and since I'm not tasked with the job of enforcing it I look the other way and hope the guy does not get caught and maybe changes his config so he does not get popped later.

KaLiFORNIA
05-17-2010, 9:32 AM
Maybe As a courtesy ... But don't tell him like your the law

Dr Rockso
05-17-2010, 9:34 AM
I wonder if the guy was from CA (probably was if he had a Radlock). Still a lot of paperless SBRs in other states. "I don't see no feds 'round here" and all that...

That sort of thing works fine until it doesn't....

Jicko
05-17-2010, 9:38 AM
One thing I am sure is that CGF is not going to help defend that dude.... but that's about it....

PS. Maybe, depending on his attitude, you can politely ask how and why he think what he has is legal..... or just look the other way...

PPS. What's the configuration of the SBR are you looking at? Is it just a 14.5" without the muzzle device permanently attached? Or is it a 10"-er?

PPPS. How do you KNOW that he is not LE? MAYBE, he is LE and bought a CA version of an AR... then he proceeded to get it registered as a legal AW, and then he got his federal SBR permit.... THEN he backed out the RADDLOCK and use it the way he can legally do it..... now who are you to "call him on the multiple Federal and state felonies"?? this is NOT impossible (altho it is *likely* not)... yet... if that is the case....it is really, none of your business.... what you thought that you saw, was just a bunch of your assumptions (altho, it is probably correct...)

Gio
05-17-2010, 9:41 AM
It is up to the people running the event to make sure all is good, that's how I look at it. I've seen LEO's and Civilians use 30 rounders in AK's and AR's and no one said a peep at both Ranges and 3 Gun Competitions.

I've heard from good sources that the NFA may be a thing of the past and I am excited about that.

dieselpower
05-17-2010, 10:00 AM
I would have quietly talked with him about this. I am not LEO, it's not a requirement of the law that I turn him in and I would in no way place myself in legal jeopardy by talking with him.

I could be placing myself in a legal jungle by ignoring it.

I heard a story were a guy saw a select fire rifle at a pawn shop. The owner said he knew nothing about the rifle as he bought it off an old lady the day before. He was taking no safety responsibility for the firearm for legal purpose. f he inspected it, cleaned it or did anything to it, he would then be responsible. He was told now that he knew the firearm was a machine gun, he had certain responsibilities as the seller. The pawn shop owner ordered the guy out of the store. This story has a sad ending since the guy got mad and called the ATF on the pawn shop, but this guy wasn't just a guy, he was a licensed dealer himself, and by seeing the firearm he could be placed into a legal jungle himself by ignoring the fact he knew another FFL was violating the law.

"dont get involved" doesnt help the situation. You should get involved. I am not saying to call the cops, I am saying this guy may not know what you know, and by you ignoring it just screwed him.

When he gets nailed, he is going to be very surprised and upset. To him he has shown the firearm to dozens of LEO, other gun guys and no one said a thing to him. You actually betrayed a bond of brotherhood by not helping a fellow gun guy out.

If he told you to get lost, then fine. You tried.

Gio
05-17-2010, 10:21 AM
I would have quietly talked with him about this. I am not LEO, it's not a requirement of the law that I turn him in and I would in no way place myself in legal jeopardy by talking with him.

I could be placing myself in a legal jungle by ignoring it.

I heard a story were a guy saw a select fire rifle at a pawn shop. The owner said he knew nothing about the rifle as he bought it off an old lady the day before. He was taking no safety responsibility for the firearm for legal purpose. f he inspected it, cleaned it or did anything to it, he would then be responsible. He was told now that he knew the firearm was a machine gun, he had certain responsibilities as the seller. The pawn shop owner ordered the guy out of the store. This story has a sad ending since the guy got mad and called the ATF on the pawn shop, but this guy wasn't just a guy, he was a licensed dealer himself, and by seeing the firearm he could be placed into a legal jungle himself by ignoring the fact he knew another FFL was violating the law.

"dont get involved" doesnt help the situation. You should get involved. I am not saying to call the cops, I am saying this guy may not know what you know, and by you ignoring it just screwed him.

When he gets nailed, he is going to be very surprised and upset. To him he has shown the firearm to dozens of LEO, other gun guys and no one said a thing to him. You actually betrayed a bond of brotherhood by not helping a fellow gun guy out.

If he told you to get lost, then fine. You tried.



I am not an LEO, but I have learned that you do not tell them anything that they do is illegal. Now if you wish to confront them and make a scene that is up to you. I guess the only thing you can do is tell the RSO and let them know of the illegal configuration that is at the place you are at.

I have a good amount of friends that are LEO's now and simply telling them that a 10.5" upper on their non-bb'd OLL is illegal will just get you laughed at. I know for a fact that there are LEO's that have setups like this for training at their Department Range or for Classes such as the one that was mentioned here. I believe that the "Honor Amongst Brothers" rule is in play when a situation like this arises.

Without a doubt I can say that there were a few other LEO's out there with a setup like the one the OP stated but since they do not use mag locks it would be kind of hard to tell which ones they were. I am not saying what they what right, but you have very limited choices.

Sorry to kind of get kind of out there, yes I know LEO's have to follow the same rules as us.

stormy_clothing
05-17-2010, 10:25 AM
Pull him aside during a break and ask him about it nicely. It may be a loaner, it may be registered some how, he may be off duty, he may have cleared it with the range operators. There is alot of other things that come to mind.

tommyid1
05-17-2010, 10:37 AM
I've heard from good sources that the NFA may be a thing of the past and I am excited about that.

Huh
Do tell more please.... :-)

dieselpower
05-17-2010, 10:58 AM
I am not an LEO, but I have learned that you do not tell them anything that they do is illegal. Now if you wish to confront them and make a scene that is up to you. I guess the only thing you can do is tell the RSO and let them know of the illegal configuration that is at the place you are at.

I have a good amount of friends that are LEO's now and simply telling them that a 10.5" upper on their non-bb'd OLL is illegal will just get you laughed at. I know for a fact that there are LEO's that have setups like this for training at their Department Range or for Classes such as the one that was mentioned here. I believe that the "Honor Amongst Brothers" rule is in play when a situation like this arises.

Without a doubt I can say that there were a few other LEO's out there with a setup like the one the OP stated but since they do not use mag locks it would be kind of hard to tell which ones they were. I am not saying what they what right, but you have very limited choices.

Sorry to kind of get kind of out there, yes I know LEO's have to follow the same rules as us.


Read the two sentences in my post...slowly. Making a scene, calling RSO was never in my post. I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was saying to do either one of these things?

I will be a jerk now and say, if you think, "Honor Amongst Brothers" means allowing a "brother" to continue to violate the law and jeopardize his freedoms by not educating him, I really don't need you as a brother.

I am not afraid to be laughed at.
I spoke my peace, if you ignore it, fine. I did what I could.

Gio
05-17-2010, 11:05 AM
Approaching a LEO would cause a scene, believe me. Especially if it is at a training session. That's why I mentioned talking to the RSO ;)

As far as not being a brother or a good one, fine by me. I would not challenge or say anything to a LEO in the middle of a class. If you have a problem with that, then so be it. It would be better to talk to the RSO, I also stated that and also the fact that the LEO's doing that are breaking the law.

Take care,

-Gio

bwiese
05-17-2010, 11:06 AM
I think it would be helpful to acquire info on such situations, esp if that person is a local LE.

Not necessarily to bust the individual, but as possible "horsetradin' material" in future gun cases in that area.

I'll note that the recent Beverly Hills bust of a cop for AWs etc and no-file charges really raises the threshold for AW charges for ordinary mortals in the LA area. If the cop and the DA can't "understand the law", that's good cover for us. [This is no way is a recommendation for illegal AW possesion in LA area, just the fact that it's one incremental method of nullifying prosecutions.]

Cpl_Peters
05-17-2010, 11:11 AM
Mind your own business...that is the best answer. dont believe the hype about you might get in trouble for not saying anything. thats FUD. MYOB..if he gets popped thats his business. Plus you dont even know the entire story behind why he had that type of config. maybe his rifle is also a registered AW/SBR and he just likes the larger rad lock button so he uses it. maybe he used to have it as cal legal OLL then got the appropriate paperwork from his dept's chief to reg it as an AW and SBR. my point is you just dont know and it doesnt effect you at all. the only time you break the MYOB rule is if someone is being unsafe.

badicedog
05-17-2010, 11:22 AM
MYOB!!!!!!

unless he made your 6" wrong at subway you should stay out of it.

I did, since I did not confront him.

socalblue
05-17-2010, 11:24 AM
There are departments that will allow a LEO to purchase an OLL & transfer ownership to the department. Rifle is then "issued" to former owner. As an authorized entity, the department may apply to BATF to make same an SBR by purchasing a new upper.

While off duty LEO uses mag lock & standard upper, perfectly legal in all respects (Not legally required but is department policy). On duty (Including authorized training classes) backs out the mag lock & attaches the SBR upper. Again, perfectly legal (it's an issued department weapon).

Upon leaving/retiring LEO purchases rifle for $1 from department. Mag lock active with standard upper - all GTG in CA.

badicedog
05-17-2010, 11:39 AM
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nicoroshi
05-17-2010, 12:55 PM
I sometimes see questionable things (to my eye) at the range.
20 round magazines going into Cetmes/G3.
30 rounders going into AR-15s
Non-bullet buttoned rifles with folding stocks, and pistol grips.

Then I have to stop, and think.
Possible LEO?
Possible military?
Possible RAW?
Yes, quite possibly.
In fact I have had the pleasure of shooting an FN SCAR with working folding stock, no bullet button, and 30 round magazines at my local range by simply NOT assuming (and we all know how to spell that word right?) the worst case situation, and politely being myself, and having a good time shooting (which is what I am there to do in the first place).
Turns out the guy next to me with the SCAR was military, and was interested in my Milled Yugo underfolder so after some conversation we agreed to switch rifles for a while.
I have to say that the recoil from the FN SCAR was little more than my .22LR AR, and iron sighted accuracy out to 100 yards was very nice. My neighbor liked my AK also, and expressed interest in building one for himself.

Moral of the story:
DON'T ***-u-me you know who or what you're looking at or their personal position. Provide the benefit of the doubt to them. It's nice to help spread the knowledge of the LAW but don't do so at the risk of looking like an idiot.
Find out more about the situation before you make rash judgments.

dieselpower
05-17-2010, 1:35 PM
My first impression was that he was LEO. After a few hours and talking I come to find out that he is a local firearms training instructor. This guy was not a newbie. He was extremely weapons oriented and like top 3 marksman in the class. I was loaned a RAW by one of the LEO for this course and for a short time a select fire lower. I have to give credit to all the LEOs in attendance since they were extremely cool. The upper in question was definitely <14" in length, in fact it looked like a 12" with the flash hider. I probably would not have noticed except for the fact that he was a bit pushy, kept shouting if anyone had a FA lower he could use and was so "tacticool" out to the teeth. It just seemed odd to me when I saw the radd lock. I have to admit that it pissed me off a bit. Sh_t I want a SBR but can't have one here in CA, so I just daydream of a day of a free CA...

He is a gun guy without the proper knowledge then. I think you lost a chance to educate him.

There is no real reason for the radlock which means he is lacking in knowledge somewhere. The weapon is either an illegal SBR, AW or he thinks he needs a Radlock when he changes uppers for some reason.

too bad.... but shows you even high end gun guys get it wrong.

next time consider talking to guys like this. I have educated so many people by violating the stupid , "MYOB" rule. People normally are happy to have me explain things to them....even off duty LEO.

stix213
05-17-2010, 1:49 PM
If he backed the screw out, then he likely already knows he is breaking the law and knows everything you would tell him. So I don't see you doing anything other than dreaming of the day you can do the same thing too legally.

radd
05-17-2010, 2:23 PM
I can not see any other reason that anyone will need a Raddlock magazine lock device on their firearm within California state line, unless it is required by law to have a fixed mag with evil features for them to own that particular firearm.

I think a friendly reminder of the rules will never hurt anyone.

If he comes back telling you he is LEO and legal to own RAW, but he just dig the Gen-X AR Raddlock design and the neat color options, then please pad him on the back and thank him for me.

I am not a lawyer but, I don't think ignorance is a very good defense on AW charges. Also, the few who violate these rules will end up ruining what we have left in California.

So next time, if anyone sees this happening, then please speak up because you may end loosing your rights in the near future.

Radd

Gio
05-17-2010, 2:28 PM
I can not see any other reason that anyone will need a Raddlock magazine lock device on their firearm within California state line, unless it is required by law to have a fixed mag with evil features for them to own that particular firearm.

I think a friendly reminder of the rules will never hurt anyone.

If he comes back telling you he is LEO and legal to own RAW, but he just dig the Gen-X AR Raddlock design and the neat color options, then please pad him on the back and thank him for me.

I am not a lawyer but, I don't think ignorance is a very good defense on AW charges. Also, the few who violate these rules will end up ruining what we have left in California.

So next time, if anyone sees this happening, then please speak up because you may end loosing your rights in the near future.

Radd

This is how:

There are departments that will allow a LEO to purchase an OLL & transfer ownership to the department. Rifle is then "issued" to former owner. As an authorized entity, the department may apply to BATF to make same an SBR by purchasing a new upper.

While off duty LEO uses mag lock & standard upper, perfectly legal in all respects (Not legally required but is department policy). On duty (Including authorized training classes) backs out the mag lock & attaches the SBR upper. Again, perfectly legal (it's an issued department weapon).

Upon leaving/retiring LEO purchases rifle for $1 from department. Mag lock active with standard upper - all GTG in CA.

UserM4
05-17-2010, 2:29 PM
I would've just been green with envy and pulled him aside to ask him how he got an SBR with a Raddlock. That would've gotten your answer without looking like a douchecanoe.

Untamed1972
05-17-2010, 2:59 PM
at a recent carbine class I attneded in SoCal 2 out of state LEOs attended. They brought their personally owned ARs for the class and flew here from their state of residence. At one point I asked them if they had to get some kinda special permit to bring their AWs to CA for the class and they said "Huh? We need a permit for that? We didn't know that." Then me a couple CGers in the class explained to them that even LEOs in CA must get an AW permit, and they best be real careful on their way back to the airport that afternoon so they done get stopped.

radd
05-17-2010, 3:06 PM
This is how:


Again the emphasis is.......

"Friendly reminder or discussion of the rules will hurt no one!"

We are all guessing here on the legitimate reason the person in question have his firearm configured that way, because the OP did not have a open dialog with him.

I have encountered couple shooters up in Burro Canyon.... One guy has a FS2000 in original configuration, no magazine lock, no barrel extender and another one with AR15 both shooting with 30rd mags. So, I went up to the guy with FS2000 and asked "Wow, how did you get a hold of full feature FS2000 in California? Are you in law enforcement?" (all with friendly and none judgmental tone) His reply was, he is visiting from Arizona. Again in a friendly manner, I informed him about the California laws and regulation and he will need a magazine lock, barrel extender and 10rd mag to make the FS2000 Cali friendly. His reply was, its okay he is from Arizona. Then I proceeded to remind him a felony in California is felony no matter what state you are from. Then his buddy with the AR15 chimed in, his AR has a bullet button on it so its okay. But he was using his Arizona friends 30rd mags.

What can I say.....all I can do is inform them of the rules, if they choose not to listen is not going ruin my shooting that day. But, I definitely feel I did my part in trying to help.

Radd

Radd

dieselpower
05-17-2010, 7:40 PM
Again the emphasis is.......

"Friendly reminder or discussion of the rules will hurt no one!"

We are all guessing here on the legitimate reason the person in question have his firearm configured that way, because the OP did not have a open dialog with him.

I have encountered couple shooters up in Burro Canyon.... One guy has a FS2000 in original configuration, no magazine lock, no barrel extender and another one with AR15 both shooting with 30rd mags. So, I went up to the guy with FS2000 and asked "Wow, how did you get a hold of full feature FS2000 in California? Are you in law enforcement?" (all with friendly and none judgmental tone) His reply was, he is visiting from Arizona. Again in a friendly manner, I informed him about the California laws and regulation and he will need a magazine lock, barrel extender and 10rd mag to make the FS2000 Cali friendly. His reply was, its okay he is from Arizona. Then I proceeded to remind him a felony in California is felony no matter what state you are from. Then his buddy with the AR15 chimed in, his AR has a bullet button on it so its okay. But he was using his Arizona friends 30rd mags.

What can I say.....all I can do is inform them of the rules, if they choose not to listen is not going ruin my shooting that day. But, I definitely feel I did my part in trying to help.

Radd

Radd

You handled that very well man. You tossed out some info, now its their responsibility to do what they want.
1) I met a guy from Texas who was told his listed Colt lower was ok since it has a .22lr upper.
2) I met another guy who has a VFG on his Mini14
3) I met a guy who told me it was ok to assemble 30rd mag kits since only magazines manufactured after 2000 were illegal and it wasn't legal to buy or sell fully assembled 30rd magazines...yeah I explained what MANUFACTURED meant.

anniepoks
05-17-2010, 8:17 PM
Moral of the story:
DON'T ***-u-me you know who or what you're looking at or their personal position. Provide the benefit of the doubt to them. It's nice to help spread the knowledge of the LAW but don't do so at the risk of looking like an idiot.
Find out more about the situation before you make rash judgments.

+1!
attitude is the best key. thats how you make friends and not to say -'enemy'.

i remember one time at a local gun store about a guy picking up his 1911.
in his case i saw 2 hi caps - loaded. so i approached him, talked about his new gun, then i brought up to his attention 'bout the hi caps i saw when nobody was around us.
know what, he was well mannered, kind and humble enough to show me his federal badge. he even showed me his gun, CCW and everything.
i was humbled as well as i never expected the guy was gonna do that.
he didnt ask who, where i am working for - just returning the kindness and respect i showed him i guess. ;)

joelogic
05-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Sorry to be off topic, but what training class did you take? Every class I take has at least a couple of "this is my first gun and I want to shoot it" people and that really holds back the class.

KING_PALM
05-17-2010, 10:47 PM
I did, since I did not confront him.

well what happened to your 6" sub?

badicedog
05-17-2010, 10:57 PM
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badicedog
05-17-2010, 11:04 PM
deleted

JeffM
05-17-2010, 11:04 PM
You handled that very well man. You tossed out some info, now its their responsibility to do what they want.
1) I met a guy from Texas who was told his listed Colt lower was ok since it has a .22lr upper.
2) I met another guy who has a VFG on his Mini14
3) I met a guy who told me it was ok to assemble 30rd mag kits since only magazines manufactured after 2000 were illegal and it wasn't legal to buy or sell fully assembled 30rd magazines...yeah I explained what MANUFACTURED meant.

This is why I avoid ranges at all cost. I don't care what you think about the law unless you are a lawyer... more specifically, my lawyer. Unsolicited legal advice is wasted O2... and if there's one thing I hate, it's wasted O2 (and ink pens with missing caps, but that's another matter entirely).

maxwellca21
05-17-2010, 11:08 PM
This is why I avoid ranges at all cost. I don't care what you think about the law unless you are a lawyer... more specifically, my lawyer. Unsolicited legal advice is wasted O2... and if there's one thing I hate, it's wasted O2 (and ink pens with missing caps, but that's another matter entirely).

agree! agree about the missing caps too. i hate that.

badicedog
05-17-2010, 11:14 PM
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Endless
05-17-2010, 11:26 PM
To be honest a lot of owners have illegal SBR setups whether it be here or California or anywhere. Most of these other states dont require any registration of any kind of just the uppers so its quite normal to see non-registered SBRs at the ranges. Whether they have the tax stamp with them is there business. Most here are very knowledgable.

I saw about 5 SBR 10.5 and 11.5 LMT, Noveske uppers at the last Portland show. They were cheap and werent really selling. Only disclaimer I saw was "KNOW THE LAW BEFORE PURCHASING"... So I could go and buy one for $500 and have an illegal SBR but I work for the Government so that is out of the question.. lol

Play by the rules and wait 3-5 months and if you are approved then you are good to go. California DOJ is a whole different ballgame.

To OP, the gun owner knew what he had..Its up to LE to pursue him. All you can do is re-educate...

Jicko
05-18-2010, 10:05 AM
My first impression was that he was LEO. After a few hours and talking I come to find out that he is not.

Did you know that the weapon is indeed his? Rather than loaned by other LEOs?


I was loaned a RAW by one of the LEO for this course and for a short time a select fire lower.

Did you go around and telling EVERYONE that the weapon that you were using was not yours? And it is a RAW or it is a MG?


It just seemed odd to me when I saw the radd lock. I have to admit that it pissed me off a bit. Sh_t I want a SBR but can't have one here in CA, so I just daydream of a day of a free CA...

Hey, he is willing to take the risk.... are you? lol...

I am always jealous of non-CA'er being able to get SBR, suppressors, class3 etc...

badicedog
05-18-2010, 10:27 AM
deleted

-hanko
05-18-2010, 11:03 AM
...I don't care what you think about the law unless you are a lawyer... more specifically, my lawyer. Unsolicited legal advice is wasted O2... and if there's one thing I hate, it's wasted O2...
Could become a motto for this board, though we'd freeze once the hot air quit.;)

-hanko

xibunkrlilkidsx
05-18-2010, 2:53 PM
I would've just been green with envy and pulled him aside to ask him how he got an SBR with a Raddlock. That would've gotten your answer without looking like a douchecanoe.

i would of done the same thing. just out of curiosity how he has it in Ca.

dchang0
05-18-2010, 3:00 PM
A few comments:

1) There's no law against installing a Raddlock on a RAW or an SBR. We're making an assumption that his lower is not registered, though it might actually be. Maybe he likes the ergonomics of the V2 AR Raddlock...

2) When I took a tactical carbine class and went out of my way to be Calif. compliant b/c of all the LEOs, I ended up holding up the class repeatedly (10rnd mags and a BB). Considering the looks on their faces, I expect that several of the LEOs wished I had simply flown under the radar.

badicedog
05-18-2010, 3:16 PM
Anything is possible...:)