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View Full Version : I overheard a conversation at the gun show...


Barabas
05-15-2010, 10:03 PM
About those rebuild kits...

What's the story on attaching a Saiga 12g drum mag with a BB?

I'm not finding the answers I'm looking for in my searches on non-detachable mag capacity for shotguns.

dantodd
05-15-2010, 10:16 PM
no go. any fixed magazine is limited to 10 rds. or it becomes an AW.

PRKArms
05-15-2010, 10:20 PM
wrong, shotgun has no limit for legally owned mags.

dantodd
05-15-2010, 11:01 PM
wrong, shotgun has no limit for legally owned mags.

I stand corrected. Sorry for the misleading info.

Quiet
05-15-2010, 11:04 PM
wrong, shotgun has no limit for legally owned mags.

+1

If you legally own a large capacity magazine for a shotgun, you can legally use it on a magazine locked (fixed magazine) shotgun.

Fixed magazine capacity of 10 rounds or less is for semi-auto centerfire rifles [PC 12276.1(a)(2)] and for semi-auto pistols [PC 12276.1(a)(5)].
There is no restriction for shotguns.

However, keep in mind that large capacity magazines for the Saiga-12 were not created until after 01-01-2000, so there is no way a person could have "owned one before the ban". So, you can acquire a Saiga-12 20 round drum "rebuild kit" and use it to make a permanent 10 round drum [PC 12020(c)(25)(A)].
That said, an exempt person who can legally acquire large capacity magazines after 01-01-2000, can acquire large capacity magazines for a Saiga-12 and use them in a Saiga-12 with a magazine lock.



Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

69Mach1
05-15-2010, 11:05 PM
However, since the high cap Saiga 12 mags are new to the market, Californians are out of luck. 10 rounds is it, unless you're LEO.

Barabas
05-16-2010, 2:33 PM
If a non-exempt California resident were to attach a 20rd drum magazine, sold as a rebuild, to his Saiga-12 with a BB, would that shotgun be considered an AW or would the purchaser be considered to have manufactured an unlawfully obtained high-capacity magazine? How much responsibility does the seller have, selling a rebuild kit to a non-exempt person for something that did not exist prior to the ban?

CSACANNONEER
05-16-2010, 2:45 PM
However, since the high cap Saiga 12 mags are new to the market, Californians are out of luck. 10 rounds is it, unless you're LEO.

Not just LEO can own newer +10 round mags. There are other's who may legally aquire them. The one's I can think of off the top of my head are retired or ex LEOs who purchased them while employed as a LEO and those who do or have possessed high cap mag permits. I'm willing to bet that more than 5000 non- LEO Californians fall into one othe these three catagories.

unusedusername
05-16-2010, 3:27 PM
If a non-exempt California resident were to attach a 20rd drum magazine, sold as a rebuild, to his Saiga-12 with a BB, would that shotgun be considered an AW or would the purchaser be considered to have manufactured an unlawfully obtained high-capacity magazine? How much responsibility does the seller have, selling a rebuild kit to a non-exempt person for something that did not exist prior to the ban?

The seller has no liability for a buyer illegally assembling as rebuild kit in California.

There are many legal uses for a rebuild kit in CA, the fact that there are illegal uses does not make the seller liable if the buyer chooses to use it illegally.

Barabas
05-16-2010, 3:32 PM
I'm pretty sure the lack of liability was why the vendor had no bones about telling a potential customer to do just that. Poor guy could have had a world of trouble based upon the erroneous advice he received. I wish I'd interrupted.

lorax3
05-16-2010, 4:45 PM
If a non-exempt California resident were to attach a 20rd drum magazine, sold as a rebuild, to his Saiga-12 with a BB, would that shotgun be considered an AW or would the purchaser be considered to have manufactured an unlawfully obtained high-capacity magazine?

It would not turn the shotgun into an AW. The ten round fixed magazine limit only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles and semiautomatic pistols.

The latter choice would be correct.

Manufacture of a large-capacity magazine.

CHS
05-16-2010, 5:00 PM
Not just LEO can own newer +10 round mags. There are other's who may legally aquire them. The one's I can think of off the top of my head are retired or ex LEOs who purchased them while employed as a LEO and those who do or have possessed high cap mag permits. I'm willing to bet that more than 5000 non- LEO Californians fall into one othe these three catagories.

Then there's that whole statute of limitations thing :)

dirtyJ
05-16-2010, 7:12 PM
There's also the fact that if you find a high capacity mag, it's yours, legally, free and clear.

Barabas
05-16-2010, 7:46 PM
Okay, let me be clear. A vendor at a gun show told a non-exempt Californian who did not own a high capacity Saiga-12 magazine prior to 01-01-00, and I paraphrase: "I'll sell you a 20rd drum rebuild kit and you can legally build it and attach it to the Saiga you're about to buy with a bullet button and you're good to go."

Was it better to have dealers who played it safe and spread FUD or dealers who play it fast and loose and spread information that could compromise your freedom?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and am curious not about ownership issues but about dealers spreading the opposite of FUD...

Those who read the law, took a risk by willing to confront the overbearing DOJ BOF about incorrect interpretation of the law, and did business according to the word of the law, bringing OLL into the limelight are heroes in my worldview. There doesn't seem to be the same concern for making sure customers have legal clarity in this particular instance.

IDK, maybe I'm overly sensitive considering there was no discussion about statute of limitations, finding it on the ground, etc. The customer was not completely informed and could have been standing next to an undercover DOJ agent. It was irresponsible and the dealer seemed gleeful in telling the customer this misrepresentation as if it were true.

dirtyJ
05-16-2010, 8:01 PM
I highly doubt a vendor who sells rebuild kits would out and out tell someone to build a brand new mag. I'd be willing to bet there was conversation that you missed, and that you probably misheard some things as well. It is 100% legal to buy a magazine rebuild kit, and it is 100% legal to use it to rebuild your legally owned high capacity magazines.

tlillard23
05-16-2010, 8:40 PM
What if you buy the saiga 12 (from a LEO or other exempt) with the 20 round magazine "permanently" attached?

wouldn't that be the same as buying any other semi-auto shotty (benelli M3) with a tube capacity greater than 10?

Quiet
05-17-2010, 12:12 AM
What if you buy the saiga 12 (from a LEO or other exempt) with the 20 round magazine "permanently" attached?

wouldn't that be the same as buying any other semi-auto shotty (benelli M3) with a tube capacity greater than 10?

The person selling either firearm would be in violation of the law [PC 12020(a)(2)] for selling a large capacity magazine after 01-01-2000.



Penal Code 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Barabas
05-17-2010, 8:13 AM
So in the case of the Saiga-12, while it may be legal (in extraordinary circumstances) for a non-exempt Californian to have a permanently attached 11+ round magazine in a Saiga-12, it is not okay to transfer said Saiga-12 with a "large capacity" magazine permanently attached?

Is it foggy in here, because I'm seeing a whole lot of gray. I guess we need to get a timeline of when large capacity magazines were first available for the Saiga-12.


I highly doubt a vendor who sells rebuild kits would out and out tell someone to build a brand new mag. I'd be willing to bet there was conversation that you missed, and that you probably misheard some things as well. It is 100% legal to buy a magazine rebuild kit, and it is 100% legal to use it to rebuild your legally owned high capacity magazines.

You are likely correct! The gentleman asking about the Saiga may have come back around to finish a conversation started previously. He was pretty clear that he didn't own any Saiga paraphernalia prior to contact, however, and that's the crux of the problem. Once an admission of non-ownership is made, should advice be given WRT what should be done with the kit?

Edit: I also just realized that the potential customer in question may not have told the vendor he didn't own high-capacity magazines prior to 01-01-00, even though he and I had a conversation to that effect prior to his approach of the vendor.

ChuckBooty
05-17-2010, 9:32 AM
You may want to take a peak around the unincorporated deserts, mountains and beaches. I know quite a few people who stumble apon all KINDS of hi-cap magazines in those areas. Geeze....I guess people are REALLY careless with their magazines!

Quiet
05-17-2010, 11:19 PM
So in the case of the Saiga-12, while it may be legal (in extraordinary circumstances) for a non-exempt Californian to have a permanently attached 11+ round magazine in a Saiga-12, it is not okay to transfer said Saiga-12 with a "large capacity" magazine permanently attached?
Correct.


Is it foggy in here, because I'm seeing a whole lot of gray. I guess we need to get a timeline of when large capacity magazines were first available for the Saiga-12.
The Saiga-12 20 round drums came out around 2007.

SJgunguy24
05-17-2010, 11:57 PM
What he said is 100% legal IF....IF you plug that mag so it holds only 10 rounds. Cameron hasn't got his 10 round drum mag done/ If you've ever seen the 10 round stick mags, the 20 round drum doesn't hang down as far as the 10 round mag. There is a market for them but rebuilding to full capacity is illegal.


Okay, let me be clear. A vendor at a gun show told a non-exempt Californian who did not own a high capacity Saiga-12 magazine prior to 01-01-00, and I paraphrase: "I'll sell you a 20rd drum rebuild kit and you can legally build it and attach it to the Saiga you're about to buy with a bullet button and you're good to go." Was it better to have dealers who played it safe and spread FUD or dealers who play it fast and loose and spread information that could compromise your freedom?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and am curious not about ownership issues but about dealers spreading the opposite of FUD...

Those who read the law, took a risk by willing to confront the overbearing DOJ BOF about incorrect interpretation of the law, and did business according to the word of the law, bringing OLL into the limelight are heroes in my worldview. There doesn't seem to be the same concern for making sure customers have legal clarity in this particular instance.

IDK, maybe I'm overly sensitive considering there was no discussion about statute of limitations, finding it on the ground, etc. The customer was not completely informed and could have been standing next to an undercover DOJ agent. It was irresponsible and the dealer seemed gleeful in telling the customer this misrepresentation as if it were true.

Alaric
05-18-2010, 2:15 AM
...
I'm playing devil's advocate here, and am curious not about ownership issues but about dealers spreading the opposite of FUD...
The customer was not completely informed and could have been standing next to an undercover DOJ agent. It was irresponsible and the dealer seemed gleeful in telling the customer this misrepresentation as if it were true.

Now that you mention it Barabas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jew_of_Malta), I'm not sure you are just playing devil's advocate here. Anyone familiar with your namesake knows that you play both sides of the field, and solely for your own benefit.

So let's suppose that gentleman (assuming he existed at all) at the gunshow was actually standing next to an agent of the DOJ. And let's suppose that agent is now using that story (or that hypothetical) to entrap users on this board into talking about all sorts of hypothetically mischievous stuff. Stuff that might constitute conspiracy if taken totally out of context and in a completely hypothetical universe. Maybe the users of this board should be a bit more wary of speaking so freely of the mags they might've found in the desert, etc. Hypothetically, of course.

If this isn't the case Barabas, then you truly have chosen an unfortunate name. :(

Barabas
05-18-2010, 1:26 PM
Marlowe was a hack writer, a forger and a homosexual. I am neither the person he wrote about, nor take my inspiration from his play.

Do you know what bar-Abbas means? The name is not unfortunate at all. Do a little more research before you don your tin-foil hat.

Funny stuff from the guy who sacked Rome.

CHS
05-18-2010, 1:35 PM
Marlowe was a hack writer, a forger and a homosexual. I am neither the person he wrote about, nor take my inspiration from his play.


I don't get it...

What on earth does being a homosexual have to do with anyone's character?

Alaric
05-18-2010, 1:38 PM
Guy who sacked Rome? Nay. My namesake is a level 80 Dwarven Warrior (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Llane&n=Alarric). :rolleyes::p

Barabas
05-18-2010, 1:39 PM
Back then it meant you were a heretic and an atheist subject to burning on a cross. Alaric was attempting to use archaic use of the name Barabas to impugn my character, so... there you go. Do I need to edit it for fear of a banning? I didn't create the sentiment of 16th century homophobia and don't share it today.

Barabas
05-18-2010, 1:41 PM
Guy who sacked Rome? Nay. My namesake is a level 80 Dwarven Warrior (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Llane&n=Alarric). :rolleyes::p

I'll believe that when you change your avatar.

Alaric
05-18-2010, 1:51 PM
The spelling of your name points more to the character in Marlowe's play than it does to the biblical figure.

As for Marlowe, there is little to no evidence he was homosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Marlowe#Sexuality), and there was no concept of homosexuality as we know it in the Elizabethan period in which he lived. Your pointing to this, defensively and ridiculously, sounds like a red herring to distract us from my allegations. It also seems to point to some level of implied bigotry on your part.

Barabas
05-18-2010, 2:08 PM
The spelling of the name happens to be an Anglicization. You can thank my wife's uncle for lending his middle name to my account after willing me his firearms. The name means "Son of the Father." I would have used his first name, but Hiram didn't have the same feeling.

I'm not going to argue with you about the implications of homosexuality during Elizabeth's reign. My best friend and former roommate has studied the subject extensively, given his orientation and historical interests I wouldn't be surprised that his research was more apt to find connections that aren't supported by mainstream literary arts.

You can keep jumping to conclusions about who I am while ignoring the implications of your namesake. Taking inspiration from the dude who orchestrated the sack of Rome has deeper implications I think than your assertion. I'm not looking forward to the destruction and fall of the Republic like you seem to be.

See how that works? It's pretty lame isn't it. Sometimes a name is just a name.

Alaric
05-18-2010, 2:25 PM
Taking inspiration from the dude who orchestrated the sack of Rome has deeper implications I think than your assertion. I'm not looking forward to the destruction and fall of the Republic like you seem to be.


Anyone who has even fought their way through Roman mid day traffic might agree that Alaric had the right idea.

I have no idea what your intentions are with this thread. I think it is prudent and wise of our membership here to be cognizant of the fact that agents of the DOJ do visit here and it wouldn't be unheard of for them to attempt to entrap some unwary individual into committing a felony in some way.

Barabas
05-18-2010, 2:34 PM
There are several posts after the first one you quoted that clarify the purpose of the thread.