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waffenfabrik_
05-14-2010, 4:01 PM
In Your Defense

Many Vallejo police officers have been asked by members of our community about options and tools to protect their families. Last month, we talked about safety by environmental design. Ultimately, when it comes to your personal safety, use common sense and be aware of your surroundings at all times. As John Steinbeck wrote, “The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.” Many times these discussions start with inquiries about concealed weapons permits, commonly called “CCWʼs.” However, CCWʼs can be difficult to obtain due to a very thorough and sometimes expensive process. In addition to the moral implications, there exists a high legal threshold in order to use deadly force, which prohibits its use except under the most dire of circumstances. There are, however, other very effective self-protection options that are not held to this high moral and legal standard and are readily available to law-abiding citizens.


One such option is Oleoresin Capsicum, commonly referred to as “OC” or simply “pepper spray.” Years ago, a special training class was required in order to purchase and lawfully possess such chemical agents, but this is no longer the case. Pepper spray causes an intense burning sensation and involuntary inflammation and closure of the eyes that last upwards of 30 minutes. Pepper spray canisters are small and compact and the agent is highly effective against humans and animals alike, making it ideal to carry with you while jogging or out on a walk. Pepper spray canisters can be purchased at many sporting good stores for around $15.00.


Another effective, but more expensive option, is the TASER. TASERʼs are not to be confused with simple “stun guns.” “Stun guns” usually operate on a 9 volt battery and do hurt, but the technology developed and utilized by TASER causes “neuro-musuclar incapacitation” and is effective regardless of the pain tolerance, psychological state, or level of drug or alcohol intoxication of the attacker it is used upon. TASER offers two models to the public, the TASER C2, for approx. $350.00, and the more expensive X26C, which is nearly identical to the model used by police, for approximately $999.00. Both have a 15 foot range and the C2 comes in assorted colors for the style conscious. For more information, visit www.taser.com


You should be aware that these items are not allowed into airports and the laws to possess such items are different from state to state, so either leave them at home when traveling abroad or check the applicable laws in the states that you will be traveling through. Also, please be aware that pursuant to Section 12020 of the California Penal Code, it is a felony to carry any type of club, a concealed dagger, and many other assorted weapons (refer to the Penal Code for a complete list).
In the next issue of “In Your City,” I will discuss the CCW process and some of the laws surrounding CCWʼs.
(emphasis added)

Ofc. John Miller has been a police officer for over 15 years. His past assignments include K9 Handler, Field Training Officer, Beat Health Officer, and he was a Sergeant for over 3 years prior to the cuts made January 2010. He is the Department Rangemaster, a member of SWAT, and is a certified instructor on tactical communication, arrest and control, chemical munitions, firearms, TASER, and various other ”less lethal devices.” Additionally, he instructs firearms, use of force law, and weapons law at the Basic Police Academy.

http://www.vallejopoa.com/VPOA%20Issue%203.pdf pages 12,13

RRangel
05-14-2010, 4:11 PM
When it absolutely positively has to be stopped in its tracks, or you're dead, what would you rather have? There is simply no substitution for the firearm. If that were not true the Vallejo Police Department wouldn't be carrying them.

CitaDeL
05-14-2010, 4:54 PM
I think he has the wrong kind of OC in mind.

Window_Seat
05-14-2010, 5:44 PM
I got all excited when I saw the OC part... :taz::willy_nilly:

Seriously, I thought there was an article about the VPD telling homeowners they shouldn't arm themselves with guns.

There was, There was an article:

Vallejo police advise citizens against arming themselves (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=268943)

Erik.

CalNRA
05-14-2010, 5:52 PM
when Officer Miller turns in his guns and rely on OC and Tazers, let me know.

CCWFacts
05-14-2010, 6:13 PM
when Officer Miller turns in his guns and rely on OC and Tazers, let me know.

Yeah, when PDs around here stop carrying guns, and switch to herbs and spices, I'll also give up on CCW reform.

As Paladin once posted:

6p4FK6Eq-ZA

That officer filled the guy's car with pepper spray. I would be puking and unable to breath and ready to pass out. That's because I have a normal sensitivity to pain. Criminals tend not to have normal pain sensitivity. That criminal didn't react to it and was able to easily make aimed shots and drive. I believe the officer died due to his reliance on pepper spray.

So yeah, as soon as Vallejo PD switches to pepper spray, I'll bring all my firearms to the next gun buyback.

Dr Rockso
05-14-2010, 6:23 PM
6p4FK6Eq-ZA


WOW, that officer was way too casual. Seriously, just a short blast of spray and then turning his back on the suspect? And it looked like the perp knew how to shoot...

postal
05-14-2010, 6:24 PM
Shame on them. (VPD)

I spent almost 2 yrs in Vallejo in the Navy at nightmare island.

After I got sent to virginia my 2 buddies that I used to drive around everywhere were attacked in town. They got beat really bad. One got all kinds of cut up in the face with a knife. Several weeks in the hospital.

And this twit saying I should rely on pepper spray? Or spend $300+ more on a tazer than my girlfriend spent on a Springfield XD40? Seriously? I should spend more on a tazer than a REAL quality firearm?

Stop smoking crack from the evidence locker mr policeman.

Dr Rockso
05-14-2010, 6:40 PM
Shame on them. (VPD)

I spent almost 2 yrs in Vallejo in the Navy at nightmare island.

After I got sent to virginia my 2 buddies that I used to drive around everywhere were attacked in town. They got beat really bad. One got all kinds of cut up in the face with a knife. Several weeks in the hospital.

And this twit saying I should rely on pepper spray? Or spend $300+ more on a tazer than my girlfriend spent on a Springfield XD40? Seriously? I should spend more on a tazer than a REAL quality firearm?

Stop smoking crack from the evidence locker mr policeman.

Well, seeing as this is just an article by a cop (I don't think he's the CLEO) what do you want him to say? "Go ahead and carry guns illegally, I'm cool with it"? People who complain about not being able to get a CCW but then don't take advantage of the next best thing are just being irrational... If you're really concerned about your personal safety to the point where you want a concealed carry permit you should be carrying the most effective thing that the law currently allows.

CalNRA
05-14-2010, 6:59 PM
Well, seeing as this is just an article by a cop (I don't think he's the CLEO) what do you want him to say? "Go ahead and carry guns illegally, I'm cool with it"?

I think people were hoping something along the lines of "Our chief should consider issuing CCW to law abiding people, if you live in Vallejo, here is his contact info. Make sure he hears your opinion.".

JDoe
05-14-2010, 7:08 PM
WOW, that officer was way too casual. Seriously, just a short blast of spray and then turning his back on the suspect? And it looked like the perp knew how to shoot...

Yes, the officer and perp had a long running pissing contest that was escalating. To the best of my knowledge, a passing motorist saw what happened, grabbed the officers handgun and shot the perp DRT.

/threadjack

After taser failure in Sandusky leads to shooting, police defend use of tasers (http://michiganmessenger.com/35354/after-taser-failure-in-sandusky-leads-to-shooting-police-defend-use-of-tasers)


Green Bay Police Department TASER Report (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&ved=0CBwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taser.com%2Fresearch%2Fstatis tics%2FDocuments%2FGreen%2520Bay%2520WI%2520TASER% 2520Study%252002%252006.pdf&rct=j&q=taser+failure&ei=ixDuS4CbGpTkswOHl93GDw&usg=AFQjCNEuhPeu9Vl_Jjean-o2S2yk5agrJw)

Page 12 - The Taser Failure Rate for this study is 12%

Page 15 - The TASER is not considered a substitute for deadly force. It is yet another tool that officers can use to safely subdue violent offenders. When encountering a potentially deadly force scenario, if a TASER is a viable option, officers are trained to also have another officer present with their firearm ready in case the TASER fails and deadly force is necessary.

xYoejBVuZlo


TX8JnKN_Ahw


avAH49NY_iY

Fate
05-14-2010, 7:21 PM
OC will NOT put someone out of a fight if they don't want to quit. It just pisses them off.

postal
05-14-2010, 7:25 PM
Well, seeing as this is just an article by a cop (I don't think he's the CLEO) what do you want him to say? "Go ahead and carry guns illegally, I'm cool with it"? People who complain about not being able to get a CCW but then don't take advantage of the next best thing are just being irrational... If you're really concerned about your personal safety to the point where you want a concealed carry permit you should be carrying the most effective thing that the law currently allows.

How about admit the SEVERITY of the problem and admit that the city pd should seriously consider issuing CCW's? With the city bankrupt and cutting back on LE and fire dept....

Even Riverside city council voted 3-1 to have the county sheriff issue CCW's for "self defence". However the sheriff is county and doesnt have to listen to a "city council". Which really makes one wonder why they didnt direct the CITY police chief to issue..... Though the current policy is the city pd's to defer to county.... One big circle jerk.

I sure dont understand politics, but I didnt feel safe in that sewer city called vallejo even back in 91-92... and apparently, it's gotten a LOT worse.

Poor unemployed victoms in vallejo supposed to fork out $300 more than a REAL gun for a 1 chance shot with a tazer..... I'll save 300 and have 9 more tries thanks.

Not sayin I'm right *OR* you're wrong- I'm just upset that cop with 14+ rounds on his waist telling me to spend an arm and a leg on a 1 chance last ditch effort when the solution is so simple and saves a LOT of money... and same cop has that same solution so readily available.

waffenfabrik_
05-14-2010, 7:37 PM
when Officer Miller turns in his guns and rely on OC and Tazers, let me know.

In the next issue of “In Your City,” I will discuss the CCW process and some of the laws surrounding CCWʼs.
(emphasis added)

Maybe I posted too soon; I'd like to see what Office Miller writes on the CCW process. After all they do take locals to the range.

...Starting in 1996, the Department has hosted a Citizen's Academy open to residences of Vallejo and winter 2009 mark(ed) the tenth such academy...
...Students also had the chance to attend a day at the police firing range. At the range, firearms instructors taught students proper gun safety practices and showed them how to safely operate many types of firearms. To conclude the firearms class, students shot many of the firearms in the Department's arsenal.
http://vallejopoa.typepad.com/VPOA%20MAG%201.pdf pgs 12&13

calixt0
05-14-2010, 8:20 PM
with area's like Vallejo that aren't safe and the police refusing to protect. I'm suprised how they can't be held liable for not allowing your means to protect yourself?

Roadrunner
05-14-2010, 8:41 PM
Before I posted this, I decided to do a little research and this is what I discovered.

1. Cops hate pepper spray. They say it effects them when they put someone in their car that has it on them.

2. If you have to use the stuff, chances are you'll be using it when the wind is blowing in your direction, so you end up spraying yourself.

3. As has been said, a 1000.00 taser with only one shot against some maggot with a knife or a gun really doesn't seem like a reasonable option to me.

4.The only time I see cops using a taser is when the person they are confronting is disarmed. If a criminal has something like a club and confronts a cop, the criminal is a fool for bringing a club to a gunfight.

This pretty much sucks. While Texas cops are telling people to arm themselves, our "elite" police are telling us not to arm ourselves. Seriously, do those guys get some kind of bonus pay for investigating murders?

N6ATF
05-14-2010, 9:04 PM
With 'friends' like this...

nicki
05-14-2010, 9:15 PM
Government crime victim surveys show 70 percent of crime happens .outside of the home, so being preparred to protect oneself is not unreasonable.

Tasers and OC have serious limitations, the effect range of both means you must let an attacker within 15 feet, o/w, both are useless.

Neither is effective against multiple attackers.

Perhaps what we need to do is educate each other, develop strong emotional based talking points so that we can hammer on these guys.

Maybe we should consider targeting some high crime cities for a petition drive on ccw issuance.

Someplace with a low number of registered voters, high crime and a city in a fiscal crisis.

thebronze
05-14-2010, 10:15 PM
John Miller was one of my Field Training Officer's when I was a Reserve in Vallejo. He's one of the best cops I know and he's a "gun guy".

What he said in that article makes reasonable and perfect sense.

John was a Corporal and then a Sergeant and with the bankruptcy, was demoted to officer. John will soon be the Commander at the Pacific Grove PD. He deserved the promotion.

advocatusdiaboli
05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
When it absolutely positively has to be stopped in its tracks, or you're dead, what would you rather have? There is simply no substitution for the firearm. If that were not true the Vallejo Police Department wouldn't be carrying them.

+1 Absolutely true. It's your life, who you going to trust? Someone who will care that you live and tell you how to make it happen or someone who will just will shake their head, talk about how life is brutal and unfair, take a minute to mourn you, and then go about their day never to think of you again--just another victim? I know what I'll be arming myself with and it ain't Vallejo-approved peashooters.

GuyW
05-14-2010, 10:40 PM
THe decent citizens in that town should be raising hell with the City Council and demanding city-issued CCWs....
.h

advocatusdiaboli
05-14-2010, 11:02 PM
I hesitate to say this but it's here: some of our city centers need vigilante justice to restore order and wrest control from the cartels and gangs. It's messy but there is no other solution at this point.

SoCalXD
05-15-2010, 12:25 AM
Pepper Spray, a C2 Taser and a 5" folder are my every day carry, and have been for years. Might not be as quick or as deadly as a handgun, but they are legal, and pretty effective if you have skills and street smarts.

That said, I can't wait to get Jay LaSuer into the Sheriff's office in San Diego County so I can get a frellin CCW permit for "personal self defense!"

duldej
05-15-2010, 12:30 AM
i think he's begging the question of what is market necessity. that question belongs under fcr title 27 that, to wit, has got nothing to do with tazers.
apparently tazer is just another capitalistic venture.
in other words, beer is alcohol, a cigarette is tobacco, a .22 is a firearm, but tazer is a (deadly) toy.

cr250chevy
05-15-2010, 12:46 AM
John Miller was one of my Field Training Officer's when I was a Reserve in Vallejo. He's one of the best cops I know and he's a "gun guy".

What he said in that article makes reasonable and perfect sense.

John was a Corporal and then a Sergeant and with the bankruptcy, was demoted to officer. John will soon be the Commander at the Pacific Grove PD. He deserved the promotion.

+1, John is a good guy. Everyone needs to remember he is not the one responsible for the CCW policy as he is not the CLEO.

CalNRA
05-15-2010, 1:13 AM
Well, we'll see if Mr. Miller will write just on the technical aspects of the process or if he has anything to say other than "Penal Code section 12050 provides legal basis for ......", in other words something that will help people to GET permits, rather than just regurgitates the penal code.

In the next issue of “In Your City,” I will discuss the CCW process and some of the laws surrounding CCWʼs.
(emphasis added)

Maybe I posted too soon; I'd like to see what Office Miller writes on the CCW process. After all they do take locals to the range.

johnny_22
05-15-2010, 11:01 AM
Before I posted this, I decided to do a little research and this is what I discovered.


3. As has been said, a 1000.00 taser with only one shot against some maggot with a knife or a gun really doesn't seem like a reasonable option to me.


This pretty much sucks. While Texas cops are telling people to arm themselves, our "elite" police are telling us not to arm ourselves. Seriously, do those guys get some kind of bonus pay for investigating murders?

I have been looking at Tasers (C2) and they are not $1k. I can get a kit with 5 spare cartridges,a target, grip tape to make it easier to grab, a DeSantis holster and carriers for two of the spare cartridges for $429.

http://shop.fortresstactical.com/TASER_International_s/88.htm

Effectiveness is TBD. And yes, I would like a firearm, instead.

Roadrunner
05-15-2010, 11:25 AM
I have been looking at Tasers (C2) and they are not $1k. I can get a kit with 5 spare cartridges,a target, grip tape to make it easier to grab, a DeSantis holster and carriers for two of the spare cartridges for $429.

http://shop.fortresstactical.com/TASER_International_s/88.htm

Effectiveness is TBD. And yes, I would like a firearm, instead.

I saw the C2 at Bass Pro and I really didn't have any confidence in using the thing. I also saw the X26 and I'm thinking it may be more effective and you can attach a camera to it to CYA yourself. But the damn thing with the laser sight and the goodies that comes with it is 1000.00.

thebronze
05-15-2010, 2:00 PM
I have been looking at Tasers (C2) and they are not $1k. I can get a kit with 5 spare cartridges,a target, grip tape to make it easier to grab, a DeSantis holster and carriers for two of the spare cartridges for $429.

http://shop.fortresstactical.com/TASER_International_s/88.htm

Effectiveness is TBD. And yes, I would like a firearm, instead.

I bought that package. I carry it in the car (and wherever else I need to) because I can't carry a gun (no CCW).

The C2 is the exact same Taser as the police carry except it's a 30 second Tase instead of a 5 second for the police and a 15' range instead of a 21' for the police.

Tasers work and I'm convinced that I invested $450 well.

postal
05-15-2010, 3:34 PM
I bought that package. I carry it in the car (and wherever else I need to) because I can't carry a gun (no CCW).

The C2 is the exact same Taser as the police carry except it's a 30 second Tase instead of a 5 second for the police and a 15' range instead of a 21' for the police.

Tasers work and I'm convinced that I invested $450 well.

I believe it would be more correct to state "Tasers *CAN* work, *IF* the one and only shot counts."

Miss, and ask the bad guy to wait while you reload? Heavy winter clothing might stop the prongs short of flesh? What do you do when there's more than 1 of them? Ask them to hold hands while you shoot 1 with the taser?

Even a wheel gun holds at least 5 tries- not just 1. 5 tries has much better odds against multiple bad guys. Even a 380 will probably get through heavy winter clothing.

nicki
05-15-2010, 5:17 PM
Originally Posted by thebronze View Post
I bought that package. I carry it in the car (and wherever else I need to) because I can't carry a gun (no CCW).

The C2 is the exact same Taser as the police carry except it's a 30 second Tase instead of a 5 second for the police and a 15' range instead of a 21' for the police.

Tasers work and I'm convinced that I invested $450 well.


That extra 6 feet of distance between civilian and police tasers could be life and death.

If someone is within 15 feet of you they can easily be on you before you can draw your taser.

BTW, how fast can you get that TASER out and fired. How much do replacement cartridges for the TASER cost?

I bring this up because I bet not to many people practice quick draws with live fire with their TASERS. If your draw and fire is not muscle memory, you could find yourself in a real jam if you ever had to use it.

Nicki

postal
05-15-2010, 5:29 PM
That extra 6 feet of distance between civilian and police tasers could be life and death.

If someone is within 15 feet of you they can easily be on you before you can draw your taser.

BTW, how fast can you get that TASER out and fired.
Nicki

Good point- I always forget what the minimum safe distance is for a bad guy with knife in hand.... It's a LOT farther than most people realize.

Person with knife can sprint towards you and cover a lot of distance in the amount of time it takes you to draw and aim. For some reason a lot of PD severly underestimate the danger of a knife- Even several videos on things like "worlds wildest police videos" in foreign countries of 1 single guy with knife doing some serious damage to multiple police officers who ignore the minimum safe distance.

Bill Carson
05-15-2010, 5:36 PM
In Your Defense

Many Vallejo police officers have been asked by members of our community about options and tools to protect their families. Last month, we talked about safety by environmental design. Ultimately, when it comes to your personal safety, use common sense and be aware of your surroundings at all times. As John Steinbeck wrote, “The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.” Many times these discussions start with inquiries about concealed weapons permits, commonly called “CCWʼs.” However, CCWʼs can be difficult to obtain due to a very thorough and sometimes expensive process. In addition to the moral implications, there exists a high legal threshold in order to use deadly force, which prohibits its use except under the most dire of circumstances. There are, however, other very effective self-protection options that are not held to this high moral and legal standard and are readily available to law-abiding citi

One such option is Oleoresin Capsicum, commonly referred to as “OC” or simply “pepper spray.” Years ago, a special training class was required in order to purchase and lawfully possess such chemical agents, but this is no longer the case. Pepper spray causes an intense burning sensation and involuntary inflammation and closure of the eyes that last upwards of 30 minutes. Pepper spray canisters are small and compact and the agent is highly effective against humans and animals alike, making it ideal to carry with you while jogging or out on a walk. Pepper spray canisters can be purchased at many sporting good stores for around $15.00.


Another effective, but more expensive option, is the TASER. TASERʼs are not to be confused with simple “stun guns.” “Stun guns” usually operate on a 9 volt battery and do hurt, but the technology developed and utilized by TASER causes “neuro-musuclar incapacitation” and is effective regardless of the pain tolerance, psychological state, or level of drug or alcohol intoxication of the attacker it is used upon. TASER offers two models to the public, the TASER C2, for approx. $350.00, and the more expensive X26C, which is nearly identical to the model used by police, for approximately $999.00. Both have a 15 foot range and the C2 comes in assorted colors for the style conscious. For more information, visit www.taser.com


You should be aware that these items are not allowed into airports and the laws to possess such items are different from state to state, so either leave them at home when traveling abroad or check the applicable laws in the states that you will be traveling through. Also, please be aware that pursuant to Section 12020 of the California Penal Code, it is a felony to carry any type of club, a concealed dagger, and many other assorted weapons (refer to the Penal Code for a complete list).
In the next issue of “In Your City,” I will discuss the CCW process and some of the laws surrounding CCWʼs.
(emphasis added)

Ofc. John Miller has been a police officer for over 15 years. His past assignments include K9 Handler, Field Training Officer, Beat Health Officer, and he was a Sergeant for over 3 years prior to the cuts made January 2010. He is the Department Rangemaster, a member of SWAT, and is a certified instructor on tactical communication, arrest and control, chemical munitions, firearms, TASER, and various other ”less lethal devices.” Additionally, he instructs firearms, use of force law, and weapons law at the Basic Police Academy.

http://www.vallejopoa.com/VPOA%20Issue%203.pdf pages 12,13

maybe those cops would like to turn in their firearms for oc and pepper spray

Roadrunner
05-15-2010, 7:21 PM
Originally Posted by thebronze View Post
I bought that package. I carry it in the car (and wherever else I need to) because I can't carry a gun (no CCW).

The C2 is the exact same Taser as the police carry except it's a 30 second Tase instead of a 5 second for the police and a 15' range instead of a 21' for the police.

Tasers work and I'm convinced that I invested $450 well.


That extra 6 feet of distance between civilian and police tasers could be life and death.

If someone is within 15 feet of you they can easily be on you before you can draw your taser.

BTW, how fast can you get that TASER out and fired. How much do replacement cartridges for the TASER cost?

I bring this up because I bet not to many people practice quick draws with live fire with their TASERS. If your draw and fire is not muscle memory, you could find yourself in a real jam if you ever had to use it.

Nicki

If I didn't think it was sad, I'd find it laughable. To think, the cops with their super duper Batman utility belt, get 21' between them and a criminal, and we get 15' with no other legal alternative, but pepper spray and a knife. :rolleyes:

postal
05-15-2010, 7:37 PM
Well, you know *their* lives are way more valuable than ours..... All the time on other forums- not so much here, but sometimes--- you see the thread about the poor LEO who fell in the line of duty... send your thoughts and prayers etc.... with a 5 word line about the innocent civilians the same bad guy took out, and even the surviving LE asking for thoughts and prayers dont have any concern for them innocent civvies who fell..... Gives ya some serious things to think about when it comes to where *you* are on the 'totem pole'.....

Anothercoilgun
05-15-2010, 8:01 PM
Another typical PA attempt to tell native borns and citizens to not carry firearms because only the government can do this.

Dr Rockso
05-15-2010, 10:35 PM
That extra 6 feet of distance between civilian and police tasers could be life and death.

If someone is within 15 feet of you they can easily be on you before you can draw your taser.

BTW, how fast can you get that TASER out and fired. How much do replacement cartridges for the TASER cost?

I bring this up because I bet not to many people practice quick draws with live fire with their TASERS. If your draw and fire is not muscle memory, you could find yourself in a real jam if you ever had to use it.

Nicki

My understanding is that cops rarely use their tasers at 21' anyway...the two prongs are designed to hit 6 degrees apart from one another, which is 26 inches at 21 feet. You'd have to have a near perfect hit to the upper chest to ensure that the bottom dart would hit in the crotch-area. 10-15' is much more reasonable...I've shot targets at that distance and with the laser it's not tough to keep both prongs on the silhouette (granted REAL bad guys don't usually stand still).

I actually think the overarching message in this article is right on...you are responsible for defending yourself. Is it infuriating that the state denies you the best tool for the job? Absolutely. Does the author have any direct control over that fact? Not as far as I can tell. I'll reserve judgement until I see his CCW article, but I bet this guy is on our side. Kind of like how the .22 in your hand beats the .308 in the safe, the Taser/OC in your pocket beats the .45 at home.

thebronze
05-16-2010, 6:49 AM
I believe it would be more correct to state "Tasers *CAN* work, *IF* the one and only shot counts."

Miss, and ask the bad guy to wait while you reload? Heavy winter clothing might stop the prongs short of flesh? What do you do when there's more than 1 of them? Ask them to hold hands while you shoot 1 with the taser?

Even a wheel gun holds at least 5 tries- not just 1. 5 tries has much better odds against multiple bad guys. Even a 380 will probably get through heavy winter clothing.

Spare me the lame "what if" response. Of course it doesn't work 100% of the time, just like a gun doesn't always stop someone with one shot.

Did I really need to say "tasers work when applied correctly and in perfect circumstances"? Apparently for some of you...

Come on.

FatalKitty
05-16-2010, 7:28 AM
LOL - I'd like to see the reaction if the Supervising agency of VPD told THEM "sorry guys, you can only carry OC, Tasers, and exposed unloaded weapons outside your squadcar."

JDoe
05-16-2010, 9:16 AM
LOL - I'd like to see the reaction if the Supervising agency of VPD told THEM "sorry guys, you can only carry OC, Tasers, and exposed unloaded weapons outside your squadcar."

The overwhelming majority of police officers will never have to fire a firearm in defense of self or others so your suggestion makes sense in a California kind of way. Perhaps if police officers didn't have the option of a firearm they would find other ways to resolve conflict.

Vallejo could be used for a test location. Only allow police officers to carry firearms for half the time they are patrolling (or whatever they call it) and the other half of the time they can carry only OC and a Taser.

CCWFacts
05-16-2010, 9:32 AM
The overwhelming majority of police officers will never have to fire a firearm in defense of self or others so your suggestion makes sense in a California kind of way. Perhaps if police officers didn't have the option of a firearm they would find other ways to resolve conflict.

Actually, police officer safety might be enhanced if they did not carry firearms. Police work per se is fairly safe, much safer than farm work, logging, commercial fishing, commercial driving, garbage work, construction work, roofing, mining and many other job categories.

However suicide rates seem fairly high for LEOs. They are more at danger of killing themselves, voluntarily, with their own weapon, than from being killed by a criminal.

Therefore you could make a somewhat reasonable argument that ordinary LEOs, who often go their entire careers without needing to shoot, would be better off without lethal weapons, and the lethal weapons should be confined to special units, and kept locked up until they are dispatched. It would even be possible to have a special gun locker built into patrol cars that can only be opened by remote activation from a dispatcher, for instance.

This isn't some crazy idea. In Europe I believe many LEOs are not routinely armed. Not only is it better for officer safety, and (as you say) they would find other ways of resolving conflicts (something they advise us to do), but it would save cities (taxpayers) millions of dollars in liabilities from bad shootings. It would also help tremendously to build trust.

Officer safety has gone up a lot over the past couple of decades, and it's mainly due to them now wearing ballistic vests. It seems like, in real fights that officers get involved in, the attack often happens so fast that the only thing that helps is a passive system like a vest. The gun is too late.

pieeater
05-16-2010, 9:40 AM
Seriously its just an article on OC and tazers he said next month wouyld be on ccw. Why is everyone bashing the guy jeez? In my lifetime ive used my fists on people close to a dozen times. I couldnt have legaly shot any of those people but im sure i could have ocd or tazed them legaly. Dont get me wrong i always have a gun handy and wouldnt hesitate to use it. But damn there is nothing wrong with learning some martial arts or carrying pepper spray.

Glock-matic
05-16-2010, 10:10 AM
Actually, police officer safety might be enhanced if they did not carry firearms. Police work per se is fairly safe, much safer than farm work, logging, commercial fishing, commercial driving, garbage work, construction work, roofing, mining and many other job categories.

However suicide rates seem fairly high for LEOs. They are more at danger of killing themselves, voluntarily, with their own weapon, than from being killed by a criminal.

Therefore you could make a somewhat reasonable argument that ordinary LEOs, who often go their entire careers without needing to shoot, would be better off without lethal weapons, and the lethal weapons should be confined to special units, and kept locked up until they are dispatched. It would even be possible to have a special gun locker built into patrol cars that can only be opened by remote activation from a dispatcher, for instance.

This isn't some crazy idea. In Europe I believe many LEOs are not routinely armed. Not only is it better for officer safety, and (as you say) they would find other ways of resolving conflicts (something they advise us to do), but it would save cities (taxpayers) millions of dollars in liabilities from bad shootings. It would also help tremendously to build trust.

Officer safety has gone up a lot over the past couple of decades, and it's mainly due to them now wearing ballistic vests. It seems like, in real fights that officers get involved in, the attack often happens so fast that the only thing that helps is a passive system like a vest. The gun is too late.

In the UK, the bobby doesn't carry a gun as part of his duties, but he can beat you with his stick until you black-out. They have a specially trained segment that is armed, they wear white shirts and carry a sidearm. These folks are called in to handle potential deadly force issues.

In Spain, all officers are armed, along with portugal, germany, and france. I can't speak for any other nation.

KylaGWolf
05-16-2010, 10:27 AM
OK my problem with the whole thing is IF the person that wants to defend themselves is disabled both pepper spray and tazers gets the perp too damn close for comfort if something goes wrong the disabled person will then at best get beaten at worst killed with a whole lot of other nasty things in between.

Maestro Pistolero
05-16-2010, 11:02 AM
The deterrent of carrying a firearm must be factored in to whether or not an officer would be safer without a firearm. I think an unarmed officer might not get the same level of respect from a certain group of individuals. It is not enough to say that, because most officers never get in a shooting, that it lessens their need for a firearm.
My brother, an SDPD LT, has been in but one shooting, but has had occasion to draw his weapon hundreds, if not thousands of times.

cr250chevy
05-16-2010, 11:30 AM
Seriously its just an article on OC and tazers he said next month wouyld be on ccw. Why is everyone bashing the guy jeez? In my lifetime ive used my fists on people close to a dozen times. I couldnt have legaly shot any of those people but im sure i could have ocd or tazed them legaly. Dont get me wrong i always have a gun handy and wouldnt hesitate to use it. But damn there is nothing wrong with learning some martial arts or carrying pepper spray.

+1 I am beginning to realize just how anti-cop this site is. The irony of the whole thing is that cops (patrol, investigations, etc) aren't even responsible, nor even allowed to authorize, joe blow citizen from carrying a concealed gun. Its up the Chief(s), but in reality the buck stops with our legislator who we have put into office and who we have failed to write, call and visit to express our concerns. If they would pass new laws loosening firearms restrictions we wouldn't be in this boat.
It seems that many of your guy's jealous and resentful emotions have clouded your judgement. It is these types of reactions that have made politician hesitant on changing the laws to allow us to Conceal carry/ expand other gun rights.
food for thought....

N6ATF
05-16-2010, 1:36 PM
Nope. All law-abiding people will continue to be infringed upon by the government, even if every single one of us were sending letters, faxes, phone calls, and emails every single minute of every single day to every single person in government.

They represent criminal safety above all else because THEY ARE CRIMINALS. PERIOD. The only thing they will understand is being in prison, and on death row.

Stop blaming we the victims.

JDoe
05-16-2010, 1:48 PM
+1 I am beginning to realize just how anti-cop this site is. The irony of the whole thing is that cops (patrol, investigations, etc) aren't even responsible, nor even allowed to authorize, joe blow citizen from carrying a concealed gun. Its up the Chief(s), but in reality the buck stops with our legislator who we have put into office and who we have failed to write, call and visit to express our concerns. If they would pass new laws loosening firearms restrictions we wouldn't be in this boat.
It seems that many of your guy's jealous and resentful emotions have clouded your judgement. It is these types of reactions that have made politician hesitant on changing the laws to allow us to Conceal carry/ expand other gun rights.
food for thought....

I don't see any anti-cop statements in this thread. I only see anti-mirepresentation statements.

For example the VPD officer referenced in the OP wrote "...the technology developed and utilized by TASER causes “neuro-musuclar incapacitation” and is effective regardless of the pain tolerance, psychological state, or level of drug or alcohol intoxication of the attacker it is used upon."

I'm sorry but that is a misrepresentation of the facts that include the times that the use of a Taser will fail. If a Taser fails 12% of the time for the Green Bay Police Department how do you think the average non LE citizen will do?

pieeater
05-16-2010, 3:34 PM
I don't see any anti-cop statements in this thread. I only see anti-mirepresentation statements.


If a Taser fails 12% of the time for the Green Bay Police Department how do you think the average non LE citizen will do?


Well I guess if u had to taser 10 guys it would fail on one? So if i cant ccw what do you recomend instead? Aparently not oc or a taser ? what?

thebronze
05-16-2010, 4:19 PM
+1 I am beginning to realize just how anti-cop this site is. The irony of the whole thing is that cops (patrol, investigations, etc) aren't even responsible, nor even allowed to authorize, joe blow citizen from carrying a concealed gun. Its up the Chief(s), but in reality the buck stops with our legislator who we have put into office and who we have failed to write, call and visit to express our concerns. If they would pass new laws loosening firearms restrictions we wouldn't be in this boat.
It seems that many of your guy's jealous and resentful emotions have clouded your judgement. It is these types of reactions that have made politician hesitant on changing the laws to allow us to Conceal carry/ expand other gun rights.
food for thought....


+1 on that.

JDoe
05-16-2010, 4:38 PM
I don't see any anti-cop statements in this thread. I only see anti-mirepresentation statements.

If a Taser fails 12% of the time for the Green Bay Police Department how do you think the average non LE citizen will do?

Well I guess if u had to taser 10 guys it would fail on one? So if i cant ccw what do you recomend instead? Aparently not oc or a taser ? what?

Where did I suggest not using a Taser or OC? What I said was...

I don't see any anti-cop statements in this thread. I only see anti-mirepresentation statements.

For example the VPD officer referenced in the OP wrote "...the technology developed and utilized by TASER causes “neuro-musuclar incapacitation” and is effective regardless of the pain tolerance, psychological state, or level of drug or alcohol intoxication of the attacker it is used upon."

I'm sorry but that is a misrepresentation of the facts that include the times that the use of a Taser will fail. If a Taser fails 12% of the time for the Green Bay Police Department how do you think the average non LE citizen will do?

What you carry for your protection is up to you.

I care enough about you and others who might read these posts to point out that a Taser and OC will never provide 100% protection.

CalNRA
05-16-2010, 5:21 PM
It seems that many of your guy's jealous and resentful emotions have clouded your judgement. It is these types of reactions that have made politician hesitant on changing the laws to allow us to Conceal carry/ expand other gun rights.
food for thought....

so people not comfortable with the idea with relying on a one-shot electric toy for self-defense means they are responsible for all these stupid laws? Seriously?

Show me one major police union/association in CA that is in favor of Shall-Issue CCW.

on the other hand, we did have this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=268943


Police Department spokesman Abel Tenorio said he has read online comments from people saying they're alarmed and may arm themselves -- something police don't recommend.