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Jbox
05-14-2010, 11:53 AM
Ok so here is my situation. My uncle passed last week and we have come to find out he has a pretty nice gun collection the highlight being a Colt Commander. Oddly enough no one else in my family is interested so I have been told I can have everything. I have yet to pick them up but I have went and looked at them and I must say I'm a happy dude. So my questions are below and before anyone says it I have searched and found what I think are the answers I just want to be sure.

1. There are a few pistols and rifles that are not C&R. From what I have read though I'm not eligible for the intra family transfer since he is my uncle. What do I need to do if anything to make the possession of these firearms legal. Do I just need to fill this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) out and pay the fee?

2. This is the big one! He has a complete Armalite M15a2. Now I know this particular brand is on the banned list. So my questions are: Can I disassemble this and keep everything but the lower? What can or should I do with the lower? I'm nervous about taking possession of this without a plan.

3. Last but not least he had some hi-cap mags that are pre-ban. Can I now use these as is?

Depending on the answers I get I will most likely be picking these up tonight. Here is what I'm getting:

S&W .44 Mag 6inch blue barrel/wood grips
S&W .41 Mag 6inch blue barrel/wood grips
Beretta 92F blue barrel/wood grips
Colt 1911 Government edition blued

Mini-14
10/22 (the better older version)
Marlin tube fed .22
Mossberg .500 wood furniture
Armalite 20" (this will have to be dissasembled and the lower disposed of but hopefully I can keep the upper.)
M1 Garand-looks to be in decent shape. I will need to get some clips for it.
Mosin Nagant m1944-Looks to be in great condition

Ill start a separate thread when I get my new toys home and take some pics. I now how you guys love your gun porn!

bwiese
05-14-2010, 12:46 PM
Generally speaking (AW situation handled later):

1.) This is not an intrafamily transfer.

2.) This is an inheritance/probate situation, which is also Roster-exempt. Additionally,
since it's inheritance/probate, no FFL is required even if decedent/executor & beneficiary
are residents of different states.

3.) As long as you rightfully get the guns from the executor, they're yours (i.e, not walk
off with them without approval).

4.) You need to hold a valid Calif. HSC card before taking possession of handguns. No
similar restrictions for long guns (except AWs can't be inherited/imported etc.).

5.) You need to fill out a registration form with DOJ within 30 days of getting the handguns,
and there's a $19 (per handgun? can't remember, see form) fee. Long guns do not need
to be reported.


AW and mag stuff:



Armalite rifle: it's banned by name. Strip it down to bare lower receiver. Keep
all parts except lower receiver; these other parts are all uncontrolled. Leave the
lower receiver outside CA and/or sell at local gunshop (you'll at best get $50 or
$60 or so, at best; lower receivers in free states aren't worth that much anyway).

If out of state, just keep it at your family's house there, whatever. DON'T BRING
IT BACK TO CA (until the CA AW ban is gone ;) )

If inside CA, your relative possessed an illegal AW. Surrender it to local LEO
(use an attorney).
Ruger Mini14: make sure it has a regular rifle stock (not a folder) and NO FLASH
HIDER. If necessary, remove flash hider before bringing back into CA or taking
possession.
Hicap mags: DO NOT TAKE/SEND/HAVE SENT ASSEMBLED HICAP MAGAZINES BACK
TO CA. If you want to (or have someone) fully disassemble the hicaps and bring them
back as rebuild kits to build legal 10/30s or repair any existing hicaps you have, fine.



You may have to physically pick up guns, unless an FFL is involved - it's hard for ordinary folks ship guns via UPS etc to a non-FFL, and they will prob not know about inheritance exemption etc.

And if an FFL is involved at that he'll only ship to a FFL here in CA, where you'd have to DROS your guns, pay $$$, and find one that's knowledgable about inherited handguns being Roster-exempt.

Jbox
05-14-2010, 2:26 PM
Thanks Bill I was hoping you would see this thread you really know your stuff. I should have mentioned that both he and I reside in California.

So as I understand it the Armalite striped lower has to be surrendered to LEO and its obviously best to go through an attorney (anyone know one?).

The hi-cap mags can be kept but must be disassembled or converted to 10 rounders?

stitchnicklas
05-14-2010, 6:42 PM
can't you sell the lower in havasu???get $$$$ for it there???. just wondering

BKinzey
05-14-2010, 7:54 PM
How do you know the Armalite isn't a RAW?

dantodd
05-14-2010, 8:30 PM
How do you know the Armalite isn't a RAW?

It doesn't matter if it is registered, you can't inherit RAWs.

As for attorneys, some of the best advertise right on this webiste.

bwiese
05-14-2010, 9:47 PM
can't you sell the lower in havasu???get $$$$ for it there???. just wondering

A person cannot acquire an AW in CA and then move it out of state - transporting an illegal unreg'd AW is a worse crime (felony) than simple illlegal possession (wobbler).

However, the actual executor of an estate with an AW has 90 days in which he could, in theory, do this. And a named stripped receiver is arguably not an AW, but it's insane to go to court and spend $$$$$$ to defend a $100 receiver.

A nongunnie (the executor, who apparently is not interested in guns and knows nothing of CA gun laws) in a traffic stop etc could result in an arrest and felony charges - most cops don't know this stuff, and even the DOJ (unsuccessfully) tried to attack an SF Bay Area FFL (Frank Tabor) for perfectly legally helping out in an AW estate case. DOJ's Iggy Chinn was later heard saying to another FFL, "Oh well, it only cost him $10K."

A used lower receiver is at best worth ~$100 on a good day in a free state - why go to risky trouble that can cost far far more to fix any problems?

McCrown
05-15-2010, 12:05 AM
Bill, I noticed you said if bringing the high-caps back to CA the disassemble them. But since the OP said that the are already in CA, how does that work. I think it is one of those grey areas. Possession is not prohibited, etc... It seems like it depends on how you interpret it, and if asked keep your yap shut?

Jbox
05-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Thanks for all input its appreciated. I got a couple more questions to throw out there.

1.Regarding the Armalite lower do you think I can take it to one of the LAPD gun buys backs or does it need to be a complete firearm?

2.I'm filling out this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)and it asks for the serial numbers which is fine. The only problem is that on the .41 I'm having a hard time making out the serial number its not been scratched out or anything its just the location of it makes it really susceptible to wear. I'm sure a wrong serial number on the form would set off all kinds of red flags. I have heard that you can get a list from the DOJ of all the pistols registered to someone and I'm hoping the serial numbers will be on there. Has anyone else heard of this? If so anyone know how to go about it?

GrizzlyGuy
05-18-2010, 10:53 AM
2.I'm filling out this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)and it asks for the serial numbers which is fine. The only problem is that on the .41 I'm having a hard time making out the serial number its not been scratched out or anything its just the location of it makes it really susceptible to wear. I'm sure a wrong serial number on the form would set off all kinds of red flags. I have heard that you can get a list from the DOJ of all the pistols registered to someone and I'm hoping the serial numbers will be on there. Has anyone else heard of this? If so anyone know how to go about it?

See "What is registered to you?" here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration#What_is_registered_to_you.3F ). I'm not sure how you'd handle that since your uncle has passed away. Maybe your aunt can get the listing or maybe you'll have to call DOJ and see what they recommend(?).

bwiese
05-18-2010, 11:07 AM
Bill, I noticed you said if bringing the high-caps back to CA the disassemble them. But since the OP said that the are already in CA, how does that work. I think it is one of those grey areas. Possession is not prohibited, etc... It seems like it depends on how you interpret it, and if asked keep your yap shut?

I don't think you should transfer hicap mags.

Too many people are reading "possession is not restricted" and going wild.

Remember, a crime can exist even if not easily detected.

Sinixstar
05-18-2010, 11:14 AM
See "What is registered to you?" here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration#What_is_registered_to_you.3F ). I'm not sure how you'd handle that since your uncle has passed away. Maybe your aunt can get the listing or maybe you'll have to call DOJ and see what they recommend(?).


I'm not positive - but I think the executor of the estate would have the ability to obtain that list. I would imagine that the DOJ would at least be willing to hear him out if he proposed it as "I want to make sure everything he owned is accounted for..."

bwiese
05-18-2010, 11:16 AM
1.Regarding the Armalite lower do you think I can take it to
one of the LAPD gun buys backs or does it need to be a
complete firearm?

Several reasons to not do this:

1.) I've now heard of mass confusion at the LAPD buybacks. I hear they are even rejecting stripped receivers, according
to one officer because "they don't look like guns and don't get enough PR" [approximate quote].

2.) You are not the executor of the estate and the receiver could well be regarded as an AW given it's listed - and
end up being charged. Yes, it's defendable - but WTF go there?

[Why are you so desparate to try to recover $50 or $100?]

Again, this AW was likely illegally possessed by its original owner. Best to have a lawyer handle the surrender to LE
agency.



2.I'm filling out this (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)and (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf%29and) it asks for the serial numbers which is fine.
The only problem is that on the .41 I'm having a hard time making out the serial number its not been scratched out
or anything its just the location of it makes it really susceptible to wear. I'm sure a wrong serial number on the form
would set off all kinds of red flags. I have heard that you can get a list from the DOJ of all the pistols registered to
someone and I'm hoping the serial numbers will be on there. Has anyone else heard of this? If so anyone know
how to go about it?Whoa, you're way unclear on these things.... The DOJ may be able give you a list of guns it thinks you own.

It's far less likely, without lawyer's help, etc. that they will give you a list of guns that they think someone else (dead) owns.
It's likely that list would be incomplete anyway for older guns.

Given likely age of these quite a few of these handguns, there's a real chance they may well not have been entered into the
computer if your dad bought them quite awhile ago from a CA dealer. And all bets are off if he didn't acquire them from a CA
dealer and/or he acquired them paper-free before 1991.

But tou don't have to worry about all that. No bells will ring, etc.

Enter the serial number to the best of your ability. If you take a hi-res pic of the S/N in good lighting, I would be glad to give you my opinion as well (PM me)

The advantage of registering a handgun (besides being a legal requirement for you in this situation) is if you ever are popped for some storage behavior that is considered illegal CCW, having the gun DROSed as belonging you allows the initial charge to be filed only as a misdemeanor (instead of a likely felony). Maybe there is an issue with the serial# readability, but if the form is completed to best of your ability and the number filed seems rationally close to whatever the number is, that'll be sufficient.

Other than the Armalite receiver situation, you shouldn't worry much about the other stuff. Just fill forms out to best of your ability and you're done.

Jbox
05-18-2010, 12:14 PM
Several reasons to not do this:

1.) I've now heard of mass confusion at the LAPD buybacks. I hear they are even rejecting stripped receivers, according
to one officer because "they don't look like guns and don't get enough PR" [approximate quote].

2.) You are not the executor of the estate and the receiver could well be regarded as an AW given it's listed - and
end up being charged. Yes, it's defendable - but WTF go there?

[Why are you so desparate to try to recover $50 or $100?]

Again, this AW was likely illegally possessed by its original owner. Best to have a lawyer handle the surrender to LE
agency.


Whoa, you're way unclear on these things.... The DOJ may be able give you a list of guns it thinks you own.

It's far less likely, without lawyer's help, etc. that they will give you a list of guns that they think someone else (dead) owns.
It's likely that list would be incomplete anyway for older guns.

Given likely age of these quite a few of these handguns, there's a real chance they may well not have been entered into the
computer if your dad bought them quite awhile ago from a CA dealer. And all bets are off if he didn't acquire them from a CA
dealer and/or he acquired them paper-free before 1991.

But tou don't have to worry about all that. No bells will ring, etc.

Enter the serial number to the best of your ability. If you take a hi-res pic of the S/N in good lighting, I would be glad to give you my opinion as well (PM me)

The advantage of registering a handgun (besides being a legal requirement for you in this situation) is if you ever are popped for some storage behavior that is considered illegal CCW, having the gun DROSed as belonging you allows the initial charge to be filed only as a misdemeanor (instead of a likely felony). Maybe there is an issue with the serial# readability, but if the form is completed to best of your ability and the number filed seems rationally close to whatever the number is, that'll be sufficient.

Other than the Armalite receiver situation, you shouldn't worry much about the other stuff. Just fill forms out to best of your ability and you're done.

I'm not desperate to get anything for this I just want to get rid of this receiver in the easiest most hassle free manner possible and figured the buy back seemed like an easy option.

Regarding the pistol I think now I may have looked in the wrong place for the serial number. I saw a picture this morning of one stamped on the bottom of the grip. When I get home I'm going to check it. If that's no good I will take you up on your offer and send you the best pic possible.

Thanks again everyone for the input!

bwiese
05-18-2010, 12:17 PM
I'm not desperate to get anything for this I just want to get rid of this receiver in the easiest most hassle free manner possible and figured the buy back seemed like an easy option.

Regarding the pistol I think now I may have looked in the wrong place for the serial number. I saw a picture this morning of one stamped on the bottom of the grip. When I get home I'm going to check it. If that's no good I will take you up on your offer and send you the best pic possible.

Thanks again everyone for the input!

For that vintage S&W pistol, the S/N is indeed on the bottom of the grip.

BKinzey
05-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Thanks bwiese for the logical explanation. It does look like trying to get anything out of the stripped lower would be more hassle than it's worth and could have potential to cause some real problems. Best to follow your advise and turn it in and be done with it.

didypan
05-18-2010, 1:53 PM
Hi guys. Not to jack the thread but I have a similar question...
My dad bought a mini-14 back in '91 and had a flash hider installed. He also bought a couple 20 round magazines to go with it. He's moving away for work and decided he doesn't want to take the gun with him, so he's passing them on to me.

1.) My understanding is that this DOES count as an intrafamily transfer, so no record of transfer is required, right?

2.) The flash hider counts as an 'evil' feature, but since he bought it in '91, can I still take it to the range with a detachable 5 round factory magazine? That is, can I legally posses this?

3.) The 20 round magazines were made and purchased pre-ban, so can I use these?

Thanks for taking a look.

bwiese
05-18-2010, 2:33 PM
My dad bought a mini-14 back in '91 and had a flash hider installed.
He also bought a couple 20 round magazines to go with it. He's moving away for work and decided he doesn't want to take the gun with him, so he's passing them on to me.

WHOA. STOP. DO NOT PASS GO.

The rifle, as described, is a CA-defined 'assault weapon' by features.


You cannot take possesion of it as-is.
There is possibility your dad is in illegal possession of it if he didn't file special DOJ AW registration form in 2000 due to "SB23".
You have 'outed' him and yourself and need to act ASAP; there is no privacy on the internet.
IMMEDIATELY REMOVE THE FLASH HIDER. NOW!!
[The Mini14 should not have a pistol grip or folding stock either or it's still an AW; REMOVE ALL SUCH PARTS
til you have a barreled action. You can later replace the stock with a standard Hogue stock, etc.]
Illegal AWs should NOT be transported, transferred, etc. as additional felony charges are possible.


If the gun indeed was legally possessed as a registered AW, your dad will still have to remove the AW-triggering features
(flash hider, and any pistol grip or folder stock before you can take possession. In addition - and only if the gun was in fact
a registered assault weapon!! - he should file a letter with DOJ de-registering the gun as an assault weapon, and state that
all 12276.1PC 'characteristic features' are no longer present.

If you or he do not know if this gun was/wasn't a reg'd AW, it probably wasn't and you should not contact DOJ or your life
can get worse.

Also, he cannot give you his hicap mags.

[If you happened to possess hicap mags before 2000, you are allowed to continue to possess/use them in CA.]


1.) My understanding is that this DOES count as an
intrafamily transfer, so no record of transfer is required, right?


Yes, for ordinary rifles.

However AWs cannot be transferred to another CA resident by any method, so the gun needs to be in legal form.

Take possession of it in legal form.


2.) The flash hider counts as an 'evil' feature, but since he bought it in '91, can I still take it to the range with
a detachable 5 round factory magazine? That is, can I legally posses this?[/qupte]

No, read above. FH triggers AW status regardless of magazine status (unless it had a fixed mag).

Remove the FH and any other evil features IMMEDIATELY (since I'm betting this is not a reg'd AW)

The FH can be left off and replaced with a legal muzzle brake, or bare barrel can be exposed, or a thread protector put on.


[quote]3.) The 20 round magazines were made and purchased
pre-ban, so can I use these?

- You can USE your DAD's magazines in your DAD's *immediate presence*.
- You cannot TAKE POSSESSION of your DAD's hicap magazines.
- Any hicap magazines YOU happen to have POSSESSED in California before 1/1/2000 are YOURS to continue to possess and use.

MindBuilder
05-18-2010, 3:02 PM
Is it legal for the executor to just destroy the assault weapon receiver without notifying the police? A cheap hack saw and/or sledge hammer should make quick work of the aluminum receiver. I would say that it is highly desirable to avoid even the slightest police involvement if you can legally do so.

As for the pistol, if the serial number is hard to read, you could face a year in jail, maybe more, for defacing a serial number, unless you can prove it wasn't you that damaged it. Even if you can prove you didn't damage it, you could still get taken to jail and spend thousands on a lawyer. I'd look into letting it be inherited by someone out of state, and even avoid a dealer if that can be done legally. If you read the number wrong then you will be submitting false info on a registration document. If any questions got asked, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having submitted false info on a gun registration, even if I had made a good faith attempt to get it right. They might think you got the digit wrong to throw off tracing attempts.

bwiese
05-18-2010, 3:33 PM
Is it legal for the executor to just destroy the assault weapon receiver without notifying the police? A cheap hack saw and/or sledge hammer should make quick work of the aluminum receiver. I would say that it is highly desirable to avoid even the slightest police involvement if you can legally do so.

Didn't you read my prior post? That's why I said use a lawyer as intermediary. That clears things up.

Far better than toting a listed receiver in the wrong area of town to a buy-back and hoping the cops don't pull you over.


[quote]
As for the pistol, if the serial number is hard to read, you could face a year in jail, maybe more, for defacing a serial number, unless you can prove it wasn't you that damaged it. Even if you can prove you didn't damage it, you could still get taken to jail and spend thousands on a lawyer. I'd look into letting it be inherited by someone out of state, and even avoid a dealer if that can be done legally. If you read the number wrong then you will be submitting false info on a registration document. If any questions got asked, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having submitted false info on a gun registration, even if I had made a good faith attempt to get it right. They might think you got the digit wrong to throw off tracing attempts.

Normally I am paranoid but an ordinary person with an old gun - especially a revolver - that just has serial numbers that were'nt stamped in deeply and or has some holster wear is far far different than if someone intentionally tried to remove marks.

Yes, if it looks like someone took a Dremel to it, that's a horse of a different color. If it looks like the bluing wore and there's general 'shopwear' and the serial numbers were not deeply embedded, I wouldn't be paranoid.

You could always ascertain the exact serial number and mark it elsewhere (like on the inside of the frame under yoke/crane) or even 'enhance' the number.

didypan
05-18-2010, 6:03 PM
Thanks for the information bwiese, I'll have the flash hider removed immediately, as i don't know about it's registration status. I'll get on it right away.

MindBuilder
05-18-2010, 6:16 PM
use a lawyer as intermediary. That clears things up.
It didn't occur to me that you meant for the lawyer to hand it in without saying where it came from. But even if you do that, they may still be able to trace it to the original purchaser and eventually to the executor. So if it's not illegal, then I'd still much prefer to destroy it.

Worrying about a worn serial number may be close to paranoid, but if you could sell it in another state, it would probably be worth it to get rid of it. If you sell it to a dealer, the dealer is less likely to get in trouble for a worn number, and after it was on their records, you'd be off the hook. I also wouldn't ask the state for the list of registered guns because that might just bring questions and get your guns confiscated or worse.

bwiese
05-18-2010, 7:28 PM
It didn't occur to me that you meant for the lawyer to hand it in without saying where it came from. But even if you do that, they may still be able to trace it to the original purchaser and eventually to the executor. So if it's not illegal, then I'd still much prefer to destroy it.

The lawyer can transactionally clear up any issues, there are provisions in the law for AW surrender of a gun/listed receiver

Having the lawyer do it prearranged avoids transport issues.

It is SPECIFICALLY RECOMMENDED to use a lawyer to do a surrender.

MindBuilder
05-18-2010, 9:42 PM
there are provisions in the law for AW surrender of a gun/listed receiver

Having the lawyer do it prearranged avoids transport issues.
Ok, now I'm starting to get it. But if it is legal to just destroy it, then it could be destroyed without even transporting it, thus dispensing with that worry. To destroy it yourself would also be a lot cheaper than going to a lawyer. And it would reduce the chance that the cops would want to do something like confiscate all the guns for evidence to make sure none of the rest were illegal either. So is it legal to just destroy it? Does anyone here know? Does anyone here think that it would be illegal for the executor to destroy it?

bwiese
05-18-2010, 10:24 PM
Ok, now I'm starting to get it. But if it is legal to just destroy it, then it could be destroyed without even transporting it, thus dispensing with that worry.
To destroy it yourself would also be a lot cheaper than going to a lawyer.


This has been covered repeatedly on CGN.

For the case of someone in illegal possession of an AW, destroying the item stops the ongoing crime, but does not erase the prior crime.
Someone in possession of an illegal AW/receiver should use an attorney to transactionally clear the decks to avoid prosecution. No further action would occur. This is all part of an attorney's negotiation ability and relationship with DA/LE agencies: if they went ahead and prosecuted or did further actions no future plea bargains would ever occur in that county and the court system would jam.

Does anyone here know? Does anyone here think that it would be illegal for the executor to destroy it?


In this rare case (i.e, not direct intentional illegal possession of an AW) perhaps the executor could, but we may have a bit of unclarity - because IIRC the exemption for executor handling AW matters of disposal seems to be for estates involving legal registered AWs. Once something is contraband, it's contraband.

Again, an attorney cleans the whole situation up quickly and with less grief. And again, use of attorney will not trigger a cascade of other events. You're all wet.

stitchnicklas
05-18-2010, 10:39 PM
very knowlegdable thread....yes the bwiese is very intelligent...:cool:

MindBuilder
05-19-2010, 10:39 AM
I'm not so sure a cascade of other events will not be triggered. For example, it doesn't seem terribly unlikely that when the prosecutor is informed that there was an illegal gun in the decedent's possession, that the prosecutor might want to run a check on the other guns to see if they might also be illegal. A gun hating prosecutor might even insist on all the guns being surrendered as part of the bargain. Adding that, the lawyer's fees, and other unforseeable possibilities to the equation, makes simple destruction seem more attractive. One other consideration though is that the gun is likely in some dealer's records somewhere, and almost all such records will eventually end up with the government, and they may come looking for banned guns someday. If everyone who had an illegal gun claims that they destroyed it years ago, that excuse might be a tough sell. it might be good to get it on the books as having been destroyed.

I'm not a lawyer so I could easily be wrong about all this, but I can't imagine that the executor could be prosecuted for possession of an illegal item found in an estate, at least not unless the executor removed it from the premises. Are executors legally required to report contraband? Maybe. But what if they don't really know if it's contraband or not? I'd say the weapon is legal under the 2nd Amendment, especially after disassembly, though some might disagree. Given the unknown legal status, maybe the executor could legally destroy it as a precautionary measure. That might be destruction of evidence, but if you don't think a crime was committed then maybe you wouldn't be required to consider it evidence. I doubt an executor has to report everything that might possibly be a crime, even if they have to report things that are probably a crime.

I'd also say that ten minutes with a hacksaw would clear this situation up much quicker and cheaper and possibly at lower risk than days of meetings and negotiations with lawyers and prosecutors.

bwiese
05-19-2010, 10:51 AM
Mindbuilder,

Your suppositions and speculations are just that and are not based on experience or discussion with attorneys.

Procedures I am recounting above are the best way for dealing with illegal AWs and minimizing trouble and have worked before.

That's all I can say.

rod
05-19-2010, 10:53 AM
Are you willing to sell the stripped lower? I live in VA and would cover the shipping to my FFL.

ETA: Nevermind. I reread the thread and realized the lower is in CA. Don't transfer an AW illegally. It's not worth the risk and it's too much trouble/expensive to go through an AW dealer. I can pick up Armalite lowers all day long down at the hardware store. I was just thinking I could help a fellow CG'r out and offer a fair price for the lower and help him stay in the good graces of the DOJ.

Jbox
05-19-2010, 1:32 PM
Quick update- I found the serial number for the .41 so I'm all good there.

As for the lower I have a couple messages out to attorneys in my area unfortunately I have yet to hear back from any of them.