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Robidouxs
05-14-2010, 7:45 AM
Last night while I was sleeping someone attempted to break into my apartment through the front door, a great way to wake up! I was able to ready myself but it was with an empty SKS. I had previously gone to the range last weekend, ammunition stocks were limited since I had no time to pick up any ammunition for my rifle or pistol. The only ammunition I had on hand was 7.62x54R for my Mosin Nagant M44 and 22lr.

Thankfully getting close to the door and letting the bolt go on the SKS made the perp run away.

Questions

Am I allowed to use the bayonet to defend myself, is this frowned upon in the courts? (I do not want to accidentally hit someone with a round that goes through the perp)
Would there be any legal ramifications if I instead used my M44 and shot the perp (if he physically entered into my apartment and went after me) and the round when through him and into my neighbors apartment?

jdewolf
05-14-2010, 7:55 AM
Yes there are legal ramifications if a round goes into the neighbors apartment. I wouldn't be using a 7.62x# round for home defense, apartment or otherwise.

Bayonet, no clue but with how backwards CA is... it probably wouldn't look good in court.

goodlookin1
05-14-2010, 8:00 AM
Ideally, I would use either a very slow round, like .45 ACP or even better, a shotgun. The pump of a shotgun would definitely scare them away, so you probably wouldnt have to blast unless they were definitely there to harm you....

evidens83
05-14-2010, 8:04 AM
No HP rounds for your SD pistol??? tsk tsk...

Robidouxs
05-14-2010, 8:09 AM
No HP rounds for your SD pistol??? tsk tsk...

Would you at all recommend frangible rounds over HP for SD? I normally shoot FMJ at the range with my pistol.

Ballistic043
05-14-2010, 8:12 AM
isnt there some kind of legal protection if, lets say an intruder breaks in, you shoot him, but accidentally hit your neighbor/a jogger/someone walking their dog? i thought that as long as it was in the act of reasonable self defense the only repercussions would be out of civil court and not criminal?

someone chime in here. because alot of us live in apartments and live with people all around us. need to know whats covered and what's not



in my mind, frangible rounds would be the "Cat's Meow" in regards to issues with home defense, solving the over penetration issue etc. if i could get hold of some, id consider using them. SWAT trains with them in small buildings for this reason, because of the reduced liability with bounce back/shrapnel flying around.

REH
05-14-2010, 8:15 AM
FMJ will go through several walls even when hitting 2X4. A fast expanding or very lite bullet would be better.

paradox
05-14-2010, 8:15 AM
Would you at all recommend frangible rounds over HP for SD? I normally shoot FMJ at the range with my pistol.

Frangible don't penetrate enough to be recommended as self defense rounds. Your best bet is a modern HP.

REH
05-14-2010, 8:17 AM
isnt there some kind of legal protection if, lets say an intruder breaks in, you shoot him, but accidentally hit your neighbor/a jogger/someone walking their dog? i thought that as long as it was in the act of reasonable self defense the only repercussions would be out of civil court and not criminal?

someone chime in here. because alot of us live in apartments and live with people all around us. need to know whats covered and what's not



in my mind, frangible rounds would be the "Cat's Meow" in regards to issues with home defense, solving the over penetration issue etc. if i could get hold of some, id consider using them. SWAT trains with them in small buildings for this reason, because of the reduced liability with bounce back/shrapnel flying around.

The law my not pursue you but watch out for the civil litigation.

ChuckBooty
05-14-2010, 8:19 AM
Would you at all recommend frangible rounds over HP for SD? I normally shoot FMJ at the range with my pistol.


Not according to the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)


Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."14


Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."42, 43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44

According to the

snobord99
05-14-2010, 8:27 AM
isnt there some kind of legal protection if, lets say an intruder breaks in, you shoot him, but accidentally hit your neighbor/a jogger/someone walking their dog? i thought that as long as it was in the act of reasonable self defense the only repercussions would be out of civil court and not criminal?

For the most part, yea, you should be shielded from criminal prosecution. The only exception I could think of off the top of my head that he may be charged with would have to do with negligence. For example, say you used the Mosin and killed an innocent bystander after it went through 3 walls, I could see the possibility of involuntary manslaughter being charged. There's an argument that you were criminally negligent when you chose a round that could penetrate 3 walls to protect yourself with.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 8:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robidouxs http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4287055#post4287055)
Would you at all recommend frangible rounds over HP for SD? I normally shoot FMJ at the range with my pistol.

Quote:
Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."14
Not according to the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)


Quote:
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."42, 43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44


Following extensive reading and thought over many years, and having had a brief experimentation with Glaser rounds, I'm in line with the thinking herein quoted. I know a lot of people say .380 is the minimum and a lot of people like 9mm's but, although I would use a 380 if I had to, I'd be happier with a .40 and happier still with .45ACP. There is a reason why the FBI decided on the 10mm at one time, and it wasn't just for penetrating car doors.

There was an extensive thread on, I believe, the S&W forum a couple of years back where someone who works in the morgue shared his findings. His determination was the bigger the better. His advice was "anything starting with a "4". He saw a lot of people who had died after being shot with lesser rounds, but it usually took a lot of them, and they took their time to bleed out.

The armed forces went from .38's to .45's 'cos the .38's weren't knocking down the Moro tribesmen. Then they went back to 9mm, not because they were powerful but because the ammo was more portable. However, the parts of the armed forces that really depend on handguns are still using .45's. What does that tell you?

Choose a good hollowpoint. Hydrashocks were good once, but there are better rounds out there now. Winchester Rangers are excellent, especially if you can get the LE version.

.45 hollowpoints are large and slow. Do a lot of damage and stop quickly.

And placement is important, but only to a point. A .22 behind the ear at close range will drop someone fast, but anywhere you can place a 9mm, a .45 will do the job better.

Not trying to restart the 9mm wars, just putting in my 2 cents.

CCWFacts
05-14-2010, 9:28 AM
Read the Box o Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/) website. They do real penetration testing on real ordinary residential construction materials, with a variety of rounds.

The conclusions are pretty clear:


"Safe" rounds that don't over-penetrate are either a) incapable of reliably stopping an attack or b) have just as much penetration as other rounds
Handgun and small rifle rounds both go through many layers of residential walls
High-power (308 and up) rifles go through even more
Shotguns with buckshot or slug also penetrate several walls.
Basically, if a bullet has enough integrity and momentum to reliably stop an attack, it also have enough integrity and momentum to go through several layers of walls.


To me, I can take a few things in conclusion from that:


Don't use a high-power (308 and above) rifle unless there's no other choice
A self-defense shooting is a question of choosing the least-bad from among several extremely bad outcomes. A bullet flying through a few walls is very bad, so only shoot if the alternative is even worse.

WokMaster1
05-14-2010, 9:42 AM
Get yourself a handgun and/or shotgun plus ammo ASAP.

freonr22
05-14-2010, 9:42 AM
Any thoughts on .45 xtp's?

freonr22
05-14-2010, 9:43 AM
Any thoughts on .45 xtp's? 185 grn

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 9:55 AM
Any thoughts on .45 xtp's? 185 grn

The only thing I can say is that most people prefer something more like 230 grns.

Maybe that is being old fashioned, but generally light, fast bullets in any caliber haven't caught on.

ZombieTactics
05-14-2010, 9:58 AM
...
There was an extensive thread on, I believe, the S&W forum a couple of years back where someone who works in the morgue shared his findings. His determination was the bigger the better. His advice was "anything starting with a "4". He saw a lot of people who had died after being shot with lesser rounds, but it usually took a lot of them, and they took their time to bleed out.
...
but anywhere you can place a 9mm, a .45 will do the job better.
...

No flames ... just some facts:

Hopefully the "someone who works in the morgue" wasn't the coroner or an actual ME, because statements like that are sometimes considered evidence of gross incompetence, and cause for dismissal. We've all seen "Quincy, M.E.", "Law & Order", "C.S.I.", etc. on TV and all those scenes where one cop says "9mm?" and the other nods knowingly ... but lets stick with reality for a minute.

Simply put, unless there is a recovered round matched to a shell casing, or sufficient chemical residue for analysis, you cannot determine round size at all between anything in the .380ACP to .45ACP range. Coroners and medical examiners are taught - actually warned - not to even give an opinion about round types in their notes based upon wound profile, as there is no scientific way to tell the difference between them, and too many cases have been completely screwed up by these baseless opinions.

Most of the accepted analysis from reliable sources puts the difference in effectiveness of 9mm vs. .45ACP (with comparable round types) at such low percentages that it falls within the "error bars".

Everyone from John Browning to R. Lee Ermy has offered all kinds of BS personal opinions for decades, but people claim to have seen bigfoot too. The science dictates otherwise.

PERIOD. End of lesson. Don't argue with me, go argue with the scientific evidence. And I am really not interested in another fish story about someone getting shot 400 times with a 9mm and not stopping, only to be nicked in the ear with a .45 and having it tear half his head off ... as it's BS from the get go.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 10:31 AM
Apart from noting that anything recovered from the body and weighing over 220gns certainly ain't no .380 round, there's not a lot to say to that.

So, your conclusion is that it doesn't matter what caliber you use?

Pray tell us what the science dictates.

ZombieTactics
05-14-2010, 10:51 AM
Apart from noting that anything recovered from the body and weighing over 220gns certainly ain't no .380 round, there's not a lot to say to that.
As I probably stated poorly, a recovered round is a "bingo", especially when matched to a shell case. What you should consider is that the associated wound from - .45ACP vs. 9mm - cannot be determined from the wound profile itself. The presence of a 230 grain hunk of metal vs. a 147 grain hunk (for instance) isn't what gets you ... it's all the mess created on the way. No one has ever demonstrated a stopping wound from a .45 where a 9mm would not have accomplished the same end, and visa versa.

So, your conclusion is that it doesn't matter what caliber you use? I'd never suggest that anyone choose a weapon based upon caliber alone. What "matters" involves a whole lot more than caliber. Assuming a good hit, I do in fact conclude, as does the evidence from non-gun-magazine-drivel sources, that 9mm is just fine thanks, and I'd never sneeze at someone who can shoot a .38 revolver well either.

This is especially the case given what the "anecdotal experts" offer in the way of opinion. Compare the ballistics of the much-recommended "one shot man-stopper ooper-super terminator, nick-him-in-the-pinky-and-it-tears-his-arm-off!" WW2-era .45ACP FMJ round to a modern Federal HST in 9mm ... and tell me that the 9mm can't do the job? Now consider that you cannot tell the difference between the wound caused by that "man stopper" and a 115 grain 9mm FMJ round with any hope of even plausible accuracy. There's a point where you have to call BS.

People should shoot whatever they shoot best within a certain range of accepted effectiveness.

Shotgun Man
05-14-2010, 10:52 AM
I can see no reason why you cannot use the bayonet to defend yourself. I would feel better killing a perp with a knife. If the DA does decide to charge you, using a gun to murder or commit voluntary manslaughter adds an automatic 25 years to life, whereas a knife adds only one year.

RomanDad
05-14-2010, 10:57 AM
If you are in reasonable fear for your life, you can legally use a gun, knife, bayonet, spatula, toaster oven, 9 iron, brick, VCR, Georgia O'Keefe painting, bedknob, broomstick or any other item you can grab and reasonably use to defend yourself.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 11:02 AM
I never said a 9 couldn't, or wouldn't, do the job, but I do believe that anything a 9mm can do, a bigger round will probably do just as well and probably better.

Whatever the wound channels or magazines say, there's plenty of street and war zone evidence that leads me to believe that there are better rounds than .38 or 9mm. Admittedly, armed forces are stupidly limited to non-hollowpoints.

You compare "WW2-era .45ACP FMJ round to a modern Federal HST in 9mm." What has WW2 era FMJ ammo got to do with the argument? How about comparing a modern Federal HST in .45 with a modern Federal HST in 9mm?

I don't think that clipping someone's ear with a .45 will tear his head off, but I do believe that a lungshot with a good .45 hollowpoint will more likely damage some major blood vessels than the same shot with a smaller caliber.


People should shoot whatever they shoot best within a certain range of accepted effectiveness.


I certainly agree there. And on that note, I'm letting this thread go back to its original purpose.

ZombieTactics
05-14-2010, 11:04 AM
If you are in reasonable fear for your life, you can legally use a ... spatula ...any other item you can grab and reasonably use to defend yourself.
Prediction: Cold Steel will eventually market a "tactical" model made from VG-10 or San Mai steel with a G10 handle.

Shotgun Man
05-14-2010, 11:07 AM
If you are in reasonable fear for your life, you can legally use a gun, knife, bayonet, spatula, toaster oven, 9 iron, brick, VCR, Georgia O'Keefe painting, bedknob, broomstick or any other item you can grab and reasonably use to defend yourself.

For that list, you must have been looking around your environs. You're hanging Georgia O'Keffes? So 80s. :)

glock_this
05-14-2010, 11:08 AM
oh man

you had so little ammo you didn't even have HD ammo ready? man, you MUST be low on ammo. I NEVER dip into my HD ammo.

I always have 2 mags ready for my pistol and AR = 4 total mags.

POLICESTATE
05-14-2010, 11:11 AM
[B] And I am really not interested in another fish story about someone getting shot 400 times with a 9mm and not stopping, only to be nicked in the ear with a .45 and having it tear half his head off ... as it's BS from the get go.

So why are some of the branches of the US Military looking to replace their Beretta 9mm's with a new gun in .45 ACP? Just for the hell of it?

Personally I use 9mm and .45 ACP and the 9mm is my go-to gun. However I've been following the 9mm vs 45 debate for many years and I must say that even with good shot placement the 45 is the more effective round vs a person-sized target.

ZombieTactics
05-14-2010, 11:13 AM
... there's plenty of street and war zone evidence ... You should know better than to call that "evidence". :)

compare "WW2-era .45ACP FMJ round to a modern Federal HST in 9mm." What has WW2 era FMJ ammo got to do with the argument? How about comparing a modern Federal HST in .45 with a modern Federal HST in 9mm? It speaks to the off-repeated "our boys knew it in WW2 and are now relearning it" line offered regarding .45ACP. If that WW2 round was so awesome ... etc.

If you compare modern rounds of similar types ... you get back to the "no difference scientifically/medically discernible" factoid.

I don't think that clipping someone's ear with a .45 will tear his head off, but I do believe that a lungshot with a good .45 hollowpoint will more likely damage some major blood vessels than the same shot with a smaller caliber. I mean absolutely zero disrespect, but that is where you'd be incorrect, and I would challenge you to reconsider why you believe that, absent any reliable supporting evidence. By way of example - and sorry if this is pejorative, as it's not meant to be - lots of people believe that 10-round mag capacities and drop-tests prevent crime ... absent any reliable evidence. Lots of "common knowledge" fails in application of the second word in the phrase.

Cobrafreak
05-14-2010, 11:16 AM
This happened to my Brother in LA about 15 years ago. Middle of the night, alone, owns no gun. Guy climbs on his balcony on the second floor. What does my Brother grab for a weapon? The 10 lb. chunk of porcelain on the top of his toilet tank! :90: BLAM!!! He smashed it on the guys head and he fell onto the sidewalk and limped away. Beware of TOILET MAN!!!:rofl2:

chiselchst
05-14-2010, 11:19 AM
Per wiki:

California (California Penal Code 198.5 sets forth that unlawful, forcible entry into one's residence by someone not a member of the household creates the presumption that the resident held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury should he or she use deadly force against the intruder. This would make the homicide justifiable under CPC 197 [3]. CALCRIM 506 gives the instruction, "A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger ... has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating." However, it also states that "[People v. Ceballos] specifically held that burglaries which 'do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm' are not sufficient 'cause for exaction of human life.'” The court held that because a "trap-gun" was used, the doctrine did not apply. [4]

Fate
05-14-2010, 11:22 AM
oh man

you had so little ammo you didn't even have HD ammo ready? man, you MUST be low on ammo. I NEVER dip into my HD ammo.

I always have 2 mags ready for my pistol and AR = 4 total mags.

+1. I don't even leave the range without two full mags left.

Jpach
05-14-2010, 11:23 AM
If you dont have a 5.56, that .22 of yours might be your best bet. Keep on shooting and he will stop. Your going to have to fire multiple rounds anyways. Just go all out on his chest and head. But Yeah I definitely suggest a non-7.62 round for hd

2Cute2Shoot
05-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Read the Box o Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/) website. They do real penetration testing on real ordinary residential construction materials, with a variety of rounds.

The conclusions are pretty clear:


"Safe" rounds that don't over-penetrate are either a) incapable of reliably stopping an attack or b) have just as much penetration as other rounds
Handgun and small rifle rounds both go through many layers of residential walls
High-power (308 and up) rifles go through even more
Shotguns with buckshot or slug also penetrate several walls.
Basically, if a bullet has enough integrity and momentum to reliably stop an attack, it also have enough integrity and momentum to go through several layers of walls.


To me, I can take a few things in conclusion from that:


Don't use a high-power (308 and above) rifle unless there's no other choice
A self-defense shooting is a question of choosing the least-bad from among several extremely bad outcomes. A bullet flying through a few walls is very bad, so only shoot if the alternative is even worse.


OMG Robidouxs! That must have been so scary for you...especially knowing your gun was empty and you would have to bluff :eek:. But I guess in addition to possibly breaking a law, if you did shoot your .308, you would also have that hanging over you if you hurt or killed someone innocent when you were just trying to protect yourself. I always only worry about my mom and brother, but I never thought too much if I were to hurt my neighbor. I think it is morally wrong to think that your own life is more valuable to protect than your neighbor's life, who might be sleeping happily next door :(.

But in my heart, it makes the most sense that what CCWFacts wrote is right. Walls are so thin:(. At least at my house, when I hang pictures in my room, I just push nails in with my fingers and I think any type of bullets would probably go thru them. So I would personally think a powerful gun that I know could stop that intruder would be best and if I could while being safe, I would try to aim downward so my bullet would travel towards the ground and not straight thru walls.

Dr Rockso
05-14-2010, 11:44 AM
Did you have the bayonet deployed? Spike or blade? How about the Mosin's bayonet? Do you have a war cry, and is it in Russian? If you had a 91/30 you could have stayed in bed and still bayonetted him when he got through the door.

elSquid
05-14-2010, 11:49 AM
but I do believe that a lungshot with a good .45 hollowpoint will more likely damage some major blood vessels than the same shot with a smaller caliber.

I mean absolutely zero disrespect, but that is where you'd be incorrect, and I would challenge you to reconsider why you believe that, absent any reliable supporting evidence.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Now you may argue that the tradeoffs outweigh a marginal improvement in cross sectional area, but strictly speaking the 45 does have an advantage in that respect.

:D

-- Michael

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4287930#post4287930)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock22Fan http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4287869#post4287869)
but I do believe that a lungshot with a good .45 hollowpoint will more likely damage some major blood vessels than the same shot with a smaller caliber.

I mean absolutely zero disrespect, but that is where you'd be incorrect, and I would challenge you to reconsider why you believe that, absent any reliable supporting evidence.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Now you may argue that the tradeoffs outweigh a marginal improvement in cross sectional area, but strictly speaking the 45 does have an advantage in that respect.


.74 instead of .62. In terms of cross sectional area, that is 1.42 times larger, a 42% improvement.

That is why I believe it. And so far, whilst pooh-poohing those of us that believe bigger is better by claiming that scientific evidence proves otherwise, I have seen you cite no such evidence.

Flopper
05-14-2010, 12:24 PM
If you dont have a 5.56, that .22 of yours might be your best bet. Keep on shooting and he will stop. Your going to have to fire multiple rounds anyways. Just go all out on his chest and head. But Yeah I definitely suggest a non-7.62 round for hd

Why, because a 5.56 won't go through several walls???

Anything useful for SD will penetrate typical residential walls.

Shotgun Man
05-14-2010, 12:24 PM
Where's the best place to get .45 ACP? Last I looked (admittedly a while back) it was unavailable, yet 9mm was obtainable.

elSquid
05-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Where's the best place to get .45 ACP? Last I looked (admittedly a while back) it was unavailable, yet 9mm was obtainable.

It's probably best to check all the usual suspects; supply isn't always consistent.

Ammo2Go has Ranger ( RA45TP and RA45T ) in stock right now...

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/page/1/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo/sort/2a

-- Michael

OleCuss
05-14-2010, 12:51 PM
Last time I checked the local Wal-Mart had .45ACP and no 9mm ammo at all. (I wanted 9mm).

I want to go back to the wound channel stuff. . .

I'd agree that examination of a wound is a sufficiently inexact science to preclude definitively distinguishing between 9mm-.45ACP caused wounds.

This does not, however, mean that there are not significant differences in the wounds made by the different bullets it means that forensic science is not sufficiently advanced to make that type of determination reliably - and certainly not at the level of certainty required in a court of law.

So a forensic scientist saying that they cannot tell the difference between the wound channels caused by several calibers does not mean that there is no difference in stopping power or wound channels.

I prefer my .40 S&W but I never intend to give up my 9mm - and there are several family members whom I think might benefit from a .380 (small hands and such). I firmly believe that the most important part of choosing a handgun is to select one which you can shoot well.

But physics being physics and physiology being physiology (and I've done more than the average study in both) if you can shoot two calibers equally well, the bigger bullet is likely to do more damage. Of course, with smaller calibers you can have more bullets in your magazine (well, if you're outside CA you can) and that has advantages - as well as concealment advantages. Not to mention the availability of ammo. . . (although around here .40 S&W seems to be the sweet spot on that right now).

ZombieTactics
05-14-2010, 1:04 PM
.74 instead of .62. In terms of cross sectional area, that is 1.42 times larger, a 42% improvement.

That is why I believe it. And so far, whilst pooh-poohing those of us that believe bigger is better by claiming that scientific evidence proves otherwise, I have seen you cite no such evidence.

So ... water jugs and ballistic gel are better examples than actual shootings? I think you've been PM'd a link by an admin ... the opinions/reports of an actual C.S.I. ... cuz we are both sortof thread-jacking here If you'll tell me what kind of evidence you'll accept, I am sure I can provide it within reason. PM is best, owing to the thread-jacking issue. :-)

socalblue
05-14-2010, 1:06 PM
Some real world observations (3 years, investigated 13 OIS):

1. .380 from Walther PPK will NOT penetrate a car door or windshield from 15 ft.

2. .38 special +P+ from 6" revolver x4 was not effective against winter clothing (95gr CHP round). All rounds were within 4" spread from ~25ft.

3. 12ga buckshot is an extremely effective one shot fight stopper.

4. .45 ACP with 185gr Winchester Silvertip was an effective round (no BG ever got back up or returned fire after 1 or 2 solid hits).

5. Training is THE key to surviving a deadly force confrontation.

Summary: Location & penetration count the most. Size matters less today as modern JHP ammo is much more effective than just a few years ago (We found that the .45 ACP Winchester Silvertip would lose 40-50% of mass).

elSquid
05-14-2010, 1:12 PM
So ... water jugs and ballistic gel are better examples than actual shootings? I think you've been PM'd a link by an admin ... the opinions/reports of an actual C.S.I. ... cuz we are both sortof thread-jacking here If you'll tell me what kind of evidence you'll accept, I am sure I can provide it within reason. PM is best, owing to the thread-jacking issue. :-)

The interweb just wouldn't be the same without threadjacking. ;)

Anyways:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44227

-- Michael

pgg
05-14-2010, 1:59 PM
So why are some of the branches of the US Military looking to replace their Beretta 9mm's with a new gun in .45 ACP? Just for the hell of it?

The military is obligated by treaty to only use FMJ ammo. I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions in the civilian/LE hollow point ammo caliber debate based on what the military does.

Even if .45 ball is clearly superior to 9mm ball, that doesn't mean a good 9mm HP is clearly inferior to a .45 HP ... or inferior enough to outweigh the other benefits 9mm has over .45 (such as magazine capacity, weight, weapon concealability, cost).

The Duke
05-14-2010, 2:28 PM
I think if you use high caliber, ball ammo, with the liberal courts/prosecutors we have these days, it might be a little risky on the liability end, and that the typical male gun owner "should have known" that this weapon might generate collateral damage. Same goes for the bayonet. Looks real bad. Not saying it's illegal, but it might really put you in the crosshairs of a liberal prosecutor who is just itching to hold a press conference and stick your rifle with it's "evil sword" feature up in the air and say you're a "right wing gun nut" who killed some poor inner city kid who was just trying to feed himself.

Make sure to stay better prepared in the future.

stitchnicklas
05-14-2010, 2:45 PM
get a 9mm pistol and some black talon rounds,problem solved

Nachoman
05-14-2010, 2:54 PM
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386


Great thread, it's been occupying my time for the past hour.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2010, 4:58 PM
So ... water jugs and ballistic gel are better examples than actual shootings? I think you've been PM'd a link by an admin ... the opinions/reports of an actual C.S.I. ... cuz we are both sortof thread-jacking here If you'll tell me what kind of evidence you'll accept, I am sure I can provide it within reason. PM is best, owing to the thread-jacking issue. :-)

Why do you care whether I prefer to use a large caliber or not? You use whatever the heck you like. If you have any evidence that, in general, people shot center mass with, say, two or three .40 or .45 hollowpoints are just as likely to shoot you back as someone shot center mass with three 9mm's from the same manufacturer, then let me know, 'cos that's what really matters. As I keep saying, I'n not trying to convert anyone, just saying what I personally think.

unusedusername
05-14-2010, 5:05 PM
http://www.neoanathema.com/gallery/albums/ClipArt/threadjack2.jpg

Errr... I don't see anyone answering the OPs question about the legality of using a bayonet?

Does the castle doctrine apply to things other then firearms?

POLICESTATE
05-14-2010, 5:08 PM
The military is obligated by treaty to only use FMJ ammo. I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions in the civilian/LE hollow point ammo caliber debate based on what the military does.



Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

Hogxtz
05-14-2010, 6:25 PM
Per wiki:

imminent peril of death or great bodily injury .. [4][/B][/I]

Key word being IMMINENT, meaning its a sure thing that you are going to be harmed. It's a little more than a general fear for one's life. It's possible to be in fear for your life but it may not be imminent.

snobord99
05-14-2010, 6:34 PM
http://www.neoanathema.com/gallery/albums/ClipArt/threadjack2.jpg

Errr... I don't see anyone answering the OPs question about the legality of using a bayonet?

Does the castle doctrine apply to things other then firearms?

Yes, the castle doctrine applies to everything. It is not a firearm law. We just hear about it applied to firearms a lot because, well, this is a firearms forum ;).

If you fear for your life, you can use whatever you want to defend yourself. You can use a gun, a bayo, a knife, or a dildo. The world is your oyster. Go nuts! Just don't over-defend yourself :p.

postal
05-14-2010, 6:49 PM
OP-

If your (or someone elses life) is in danger, use ANYTHING avaliable to you. The DA might not like it, the media might not either.... but you DO have the RIGHT to protect yourself in your home.

Now you know to NEVER, EVER EVER EVER!!! run out of SD ammo. Leave some AT HOME when you go to the range. I do.

I owned a 22lr pistol and a 308 "assault rifle". I lived in an apartment. The 22 was the SD gun. I would'nt dare shoot that 308 indoors. It WOULD go through the bad guy, through several walls and put my neighbors at risk. While everyone is not sure about the criminal prosecution of such..... simply put, you shoot it- you OWN it- YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE for WHATEVER it does. Even without a criminal prosecution, a civil one would wreck your world. + the mental anguish knowing that you jeopardized the life of an innocent bystander through your poor choice of a defensive round.

Regarding higher power rifle, my understanding is SWAT teams that use m-16's use "softpoints" because they dont penetrate walls as bad- though varmint rounds may work very well too. I dont own an AR, and dont pay much attention to this caliber, but those of you who do use an AR for SD, better look into overpenetration issues.

Texas Boy
05-15-2010, 1:38 AM
Wasn't there an FBI study that said HG rounds (9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, whatever) were more lethal after passing through a wall than 5.56mm rounds? From what I recall of the FBI study the recommendation was to use HG rounds for "digging" a suspect out from cover. Of course the implication for us normal folk is 5.56mm might be less hazardous to your neighbors than HG rounds. Anyone else recall this study or have a link?

BTW - my home defense gun is an AR with soft points and a rail mounted light. I want to know what I'm shooting. But absent a firearm, as others have pointed out, anything that keeps you alive and stops the attack is fair game. This is something to think about even if you have the perfect SD gun - what if you can't get to your gun? What if the gun fails? The key to survival is the ability to improvise. Glad racking the slide worked!

USAFTS
05-15-2010, 2:48 AM
It's 2:30 am and I am rummy so forgive my lack of extra effort and any spelling mishaps.

Obviously circumstances, location, construction, background and operational space will all play roles in your choice of hp weapons as well as ammo...but I prefer my Remington 870 with birdshot for hp. A single blast will usually work if the sound of the rack doesn't work all by itself. Collateral damage and injury are reduced by the reduction in penetration.

Practice with...and know your weapon of choice and be able to make effective emergency access to it.

A Bayonet? I suppose if it is all you have and you are in a "save your life or the life of another" type of situation... It is better than nothing. LOLOL...Toaster Oven! I would suggest never allowing yourself to be out of hp ammo...then the edged weapons will not have to be an option.

Good thread.

VW*Mike
05-15-2010, 11:06 AM
Personally, I was always told if it goes to a jury trial, that it looks far worse for 12 people to see someone who has been stabbed or hacked to death with a knife or a machete' then a single gun shot wound when they show the pictures the coroner took.

I also think its terribly sad we have to plan how to defend ourselves so we don't end up on trial or in jail like a damn criminal.

Snarky
05-15-2010, 11:26 AM
I worked for a short time out at General Dynamics in Pomona. The surrounding area was sorta tough in an inland-empire kind of way. I remember reading in the local paper about a hot burgulary gone wrong.

The BG broke into a home and the owner woke up and confronted the burgular and was shot in the head 4 times (they did not mention the caliber). The owner then chased the BG out into the front yard and "killed him with an aluminum folding lawn chair".

I was always impressed with that one. :D

For the "guy breaking down the front door" scenario I prefer my 870 Tactical Magnum loaded with 6 of the big magnum shells with 00 buckshot. That is 15 projectiles each about .32 caliber coming out of the business end at about 2000 fps. That really does represent awesome firepower inside about 35-ft. Plus the racking sound is not to be underestimated for its ability to make someone crap their pants and run. I don't have any close neighbors.

VW*Mike
05-15-2010, 11:36 AM
I would love to have my Mossy 500A for HD as the sound of the slide racking is a humans version of a "rattlesnake tail" if you will. I think its too long even in its form, and doesn't fit well in the nightstand. I could leave it bed side, but don't like leaving things not locked up when I'm not home. Pistol is easy to put in the safe. Shotty would have to go back in the big safe down stairs whenever I leave and thats a hassle. When I was younger and lived in the hood and was single, it stayed by my bed. The misses would disapprove on grounds it clashes with the bedroom set.....

shooting4life
05-15-2010, 11:52 AM
Any modern hollow point will work. See if you can find some place online where you can buy in packs of 50 instead of those little packs of 20 that are waaaaayyyyy over priced.

patriot_man
05-15-2010, 12:08 PM
glaser safety slugs lol

NoahH
05-15-2010, 12:15 PM
We live in the same area. I've put some thought into what kind of person is likely to enter my home, and it is my personal opinion that there is a very slim chance that person(s) is willing to engage me in a gunfight, let alone try to win one. I keep a shotgun out with 00 buck in the tube, empty chamber and a side saddle with more buckshot. I think the sound of one going into the chamber will deter most people, and if not, then sir, we will give them the bayonet!!

cmaynes
05-15-2010, 2:28 PM
I never said a 9 couldn't, or wouldn't, do the job, but I do believe that anything a 9mm can do, a bigger round will probably do just as well and probably better.

Whatever the wound channels or magazines say, there's plenty of street and war zone evidence that leads me to believe that there are better rounds than .38 or 9mm. Admittedly, armed forces are stupidly limited to non-hollowpoints.

You compare "WW2-era .45ACP FMJ round to a modern Federal HST in 9mm." What has WW2 era FMJ ammo got to do with the argument? How about comparing a modern Federal HST in .45 with a modern Federal HST in 9mm?

I don't think that clipping someone's ear with a .45 will tear his head off, but I do believe that a lungshot with a good .45 hollowpoint will more likely damage some major blood vessels than the same shot with a smaller caliber.


I certainly agree there. And on that note, I'm letting this thread go back to its original purpose.

For those who have them, I will take 18 rounds of 124g +P 9mm hollowpoint over 8 rounds of 230g 45ACP any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

Hits count, period.

a1c
05-15-2010, 3:01 PM
As someone who hears a lot of shop talk from DAs and criminal defense attorneys (from both rural and urban areas), I'd like to remind people that if you exercised force to defend yourself in your home from an imminent threat, you are very unlikely to be prosecuted by your DA. Those rare cases you hear of are usually people who have chased thieves down the street, or shot a couple of teenagers on their lawn. Those almost always make the news, whereas the cases of people defending themselves without being charged almost never do, except when it's a grandma with an old .38 or if there is video footage of the incident.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of FUD out there that Hollywood helped spreading around because it makes for some good drama, but the truth is: if a bad guy breaks into your home and you shoot him in self defense (and that doesn't mean emptying your shotgun mag even though he's already incapacitated on the floor), you will be just fine. The huge majority of cops won't try to screw you over either - they hate bad guys even more than you do.

So stop fretting over this. Just make sure you have a firearm or weapon you know how to use should you have to. And before that, your first line of defense should be a home alarm system and/or a dog. Solely relying on a firearm is short-sighted. Get a good door lock and an alarm system before you even buy that shotgun. In the meanwhile, all those threads are mostly based on FUD and frustration over CA laws that don't apply to this kind of situation. You have the same right to defend yourself inside your home as anybody else does in Texas or Alabama.

odysseus
05-15-2010, 3:18 PM
To the OP - not good to leave yourself with just a knife to defend yourself. Anyway, as mentioned if you are truly defending yourself you can throw a TV at the person or grab your santoku from the kitchen, it doesn't matter.

BTW to the discussion, someone breaking into my place will be met first with .45acp in a +4 inch barrel, probably with speer golddot +p 200gr HP. Anything more and I am reaching for a loaded rifle. But I seriously doubt I would have to.

b.faust
05-15-2010, 3:19 PM
I NEVER dip into my HD ammo.



Same. I always have a good amount of 'emergency purposes/close encounters' ammo on hand that doesn't get touched, no matter how bad the temptation is.

My general rule is I never use my HD ammo (unless I'm testing it and replacing it the same day), and never drop below 250 of FMJ range ammo.

But to the original question, keeping in mind I'm no lawyer, I think it's reasonable to assume that if the situation was dire enough to use a firearm, (and I mean seriously dire), you can use anything at hand to defend your life.

Hell, I know a guy in the Midwest who chased two intruders out of his house with a damn broadsword.
(Good thing they ran too, I don't think was sharp, and it was so cheap it snapped the tang about a year later when he dropped it)

Meplat
05-15-2010, 3:47 PM
As has been said, if you truly fear for your life or the life of others use what you got, it’s a no brainer.

The real question is preparation. If you are prepared there is no need to wonder about bayonets. Personally the command “Fix Bayonets” has sent chills up my spine sense basic training. I don’t want any part of it.

If you want to be prepared, get a shotgun and practice with it. I have all manner of rifles and pistols, but my bedside gun is an 18” Mossberg 500 with a 20 round bandolier. It has 7 rounds of birdshot in the mag tube and 10 rounds each of buckshot and slugs in the bandolier.

An ounce of #8 shot will tare hell out of the first thing it hits at indoor ranges, but will not penetrate more than one wall and does not have much lethality left after penetrating that one.

robcoe
05-15-2010, 4:00 PM
To the OP, a bayonett should be fine, not ideal(buy some ammo), but fine.

To eveyone arguing about 9mm Vs .45, it all depends on the situation and what the person shooting is comfortable with. Nobody is going to win that argument.

Personaly, I just stick with my 12ga for a main defensive weapon, with my .357 magnum as a backup, and I am perfectly comfortable with that setup.

Jamez
05-15-2010, 4:47 PM
I would say IF it happened, you could state...

You were faced with a potential life or death situation BUT at the same time made the conscious decision that you didn't want to risk harming any innocent persons during a high stress shooting situation.
Then you could go into statistics that show how many rounds do not hit the intended target during shoot outs with law enforcement personnel and the close ranges at which those particular incidents occurred ect, ect

Mongoblack23
05-15-2010, 5:09 PM
first thing i have to say is do the research and come to your own conclusion.
secondly, using any weapon you have from a shotgun, hand gun, rifle, to a sharpened spoon is perfectly legal in use for self/home defense. (though i'm not sure how effective a sharpened spoon would be.)

as far as worried about round penetrating walls and such, perfectly understandable, my only advice, find the heaviest, softest round you can. (most of these tend to be target rounds, which holds up awesome in court, for the most part totally defeats the "lying in wait" BS, but also provides good stopping and expansion power) as far as the shotgun defense that many have brought up; i agree that the 12 gauge is probably the best home defense weapon you can own. you can pick them up cheap, no real aiming skill is required and the progressive load factor is awesome. i use #8 bird shot, followed by #6 then high brass #6, then high brass #4 then good ole double buck. if they get past that, they deserve whatever they are after...

RomanDad
05-15-2010, 9:45 PM
first thing i have to say is do the research and come to your own conclusion.
secondly, using any weapon you have from a shotgun, hand gun, rifle, to a sharpened spoon is perfectly legal in use for self/home defense. (though i'm not sure how effective a sharpened spoon would be.)

I know 382 ways to kill a man with a spork.

dantodd
05-15-2010, 10:14 PM
I know 382 ways to kill a man with a spork.

only 4 classes to go then you'll know them all.

CDFingers
05-16-2010, 5:32 AM
Inside your home, you're good to go with the bayonet.

I agree with folks about not using full power military rounds as PD rounds.

Bayonets are surprisingly persuasive unless the BG is armed with a firearm. You may not even have to stick him--you may just get to watch him soil himself as you call the cops.

But you'll want a personal defense hand gun sooner or later, as bayonets suffer from reduced effectiveness at distances greater than about five feet. Well, a 91/30's effective range with bayonet is closer to one block... ;-)

CDFingers

USAFTS
05-16-2010, 11:36 AM
I know 382 ways to kill a man with a spork.

I want a signed copy of your book as soon as it comes out RomanDad. LOL

lugar
05-16-2010, 12:13 PM
I worked for a short time out at General Dynamics in Pomona. The surrounding area was sorta tough in an inland-empire kind of way. I remember reading in the local paper about a hot burgulary gone wrong.

The BG broke into a home and the owner woke up and confronted the burgular and was shot in the head 4 times (they did not mention the caliber). The owner then chased the BG out into the front yard and "killed him with an aluminum folding lawn chair".

I was always impressed with that one. :D

For the "guy breaking down the front door" scenario I prefer my 870 Tactical Magnum loaded with 6 of the big magnum shells with 00 buckshot. That is 15 projectiles each about .32 caliber coming out of the business end at about 2000 fps. That really does represent awesome firepower inside about 35-ft. Plus the racking sound is not to be underestimated for its ability to make someone crap their pants and run. I don't have any close neighbors.

I always CCW a folding lawn chair.

PutTogether
05-16-2010, 12:31 PM
I love this thread. A lot of times threads on here get clogged up with the "gee golly I don't want to over penetrate I better use bean bags" junk. It is refreshing to see people point out that No, frangible ammo is for shooting steel, not people. It has to hit something harder than itself to break up. Also, "safe" ammo usually won't penetrate enough to be effective as you like.

Great job everyone.

And for god's sake, don't depend on the racking of a shotgun to scare someone away. If that is what is stuck in your head, how are you going to reacting when chambering that round make someone lunge at you instead of running away. I can't outrun buckshot, but I can certainly jump on you and take that shotgun away from you.

RomanDad
05-16-2010, 12:55 PM
I want a signed copy of your book as soon as it comes out RomanDad. LOL

Thanks for the support.... Following up the hit "40 ways to kill a man with a melon-baller" was no easy task. If it weren't for dedicated fans like yourself I doubt I could have done it.

odysseus
05-16-2010, 1:04 PM
Thanks for the support.... Following up the hit "40 ways to kill a man with a melon-baller" was no easy task. If it weren't for dedicated fans like yourself I doubt I could have done it.

Hey! This is a family oriented website!

RomanDad
05-16-2010, 1:05 PM
Hey! This is a family oriented website!

And you should "Get the Scoop" on home protection.:D

Jpach
05-16-2010, 1:18 PM
Why, because a 5.56 won't go through several walls???

Anything useful for SD will penetrate typical residential walls.

Not as much as a 9 or a 45 or slugs or buck shot my friend. So which would you pick?

Meplat
05-16-2010, 4:51 PM
Not as much as a 9 or a 45 or slugs or buck shot my friend. So which would you pick?

It's still a bad choice, just not as bad.

I'll pick birdshot.

KylaGWolf
05-16-2010, 5:17 PM
Where's the best place to get .45 ACP? Last I looked (admittedly a while back) it was unavailable, yet 9mm was obtainable.

And down here in San Diego up until recently finding 9mm ammo was next to impossible. Now I have a 9mm but right now even if I wanted to I would not use it for SD, but then again its got to go in to HK for a look over. We took it apart to clean it the again the other night and may have discovered maybe two reasons it had the major malfunction that it had and if that is the case I will more than likely get a new gun or at least the slide and another piece replaced but time will tell on that one. If not my HK will become a very expensive paperweight. As to bigger caliber guns that can be an issue for those with grip issues or other factors that can make some of the smaller caliber guns a better choice. And well with well placed shots even a 22 can and will cause death. OK may take more than one shot but still can work in a pinch. I also know that we have ammo for all of our HD guns although I vote for more 45 ammo since right now that is my gun of choice. I can't shoot other half's Springfield 40mm I can't pull the slide back...which is an issue. I can on both the 1911 models in the house. But I still want one of my very own :D

gunsmith
05-16-2010, 7:02 PM
whew, what a long off topic thread, got bored half way thru because I've seen it a million times ... the old .45 V .9mm gunnies never ever tire of it.
OP!
in the narrow scope of what you had I would've stuck him with the Bayo left it in there then shoot him ( W/.22 ) because "he had my weapon your Honor".

Those rifle rounds should only be used in the home when you need to shoot thru multiple rooms, like maybe if they were full of zombies or hippies, or zombie hippies ( the worse )

misterjake
05-16-2010, 7:44 PM
Ignore what people "feel" and read this article, some great answers to your questions about defensive loads:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

nitrofc
05-16-2010, 8:01 PM
+1. I don't even leave the range without two full mags left.

+1

And those mags come in that way....and stay that way.
The rest of the stuff gets used up until it's time to leave.

jamesob
05-16-2010, 10:12 PM
if you live in an apartment your best weapon would be a shotgun with birdshot.

misterjake
05-16-2010, 11:13 PM
if you live in an apartment your best weapon would be a shotgun with birdshot.

#1 buckshot, go read my link a few posts above.

Snarky
05-16-2010, 11:44 PM
I love this thread. A lot of times threads on here get clogged up with the "gee golly I don't want to over penetrate I better use bean bags" junk. It is refreshing to see people point out that No, frangible ammo is for shooting steel, not people. It has to hit something harder than itself to break up. Also, "safe" ammo usually won't penetrate enough to be effective as you like.

Great job everyone.

And for god's sake, don't depend on the racking of a shotgun to scare someone away. If that is what is stuck in your head, how are you going to reacting when chambering that round make someone lunge at you instead of running away. I can't outrun buckshot, but I can certainly jump on you and take that shotgun away from you.

I use a sling and so can't afford to fool around with lunging BGs. After I rack and shout if they move one inch in my direction they are catching 15 00 projectiles as I posted earlier. I hope that doesn't offend anyones humanity but it would be something I would view as necessary.

gorblimey
05-17-2010, 2:32 AM
So why are some of the branches of the US Military looking to replace their Beretta 9mm's with a new gun in .45 ACP? Just for the hell of it?

Personally I use 9mm and .45 ACP and the 9mm is my go-to gun. However I've been following the 9mm vs 45 debate for many years and I must say that even with good shot placement the 45 is the more effective round vs a person-sized target.


Unless they're wearing more than a t-shirt, as .45 penetration is, shall we say, not the best.

gorblimey
05-17-2010, 2:35 AM
I have always thought a bayonet would make a hellish addition to a home defense weapon, if nothing else for the psychological effect. I know if I were a home invader the sight of a fixed bayonet would make me think twice.


We'd just engage you in endless negotiations and wait for the inevitable demise from the hantavirus. No bayonet necessary.

odysseus
05-17-2010, 2:36 AM
Unless they're wearing more than a t-shirt, as .45 penetration is, shall we say, not the best.

Here we go again... :lurk5:

Glock22Fan
05-17-2010, 8:32 AM
For those who have them, I will take 18 rounds of 124g +P 9mm hollowpoint over 8 rounds of 230g 45ACP any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

Hits count, period.

I understand this, but I can get off 17 rounds of 230grns in less than two seconds longer than it takes you to get off 18 of 124. That's nearly twice as much lead. I know seconds count, and (see my screen name) I often have 15 rounds in my G22 instead of .45. I feel happy with either.

dfletcher
05-17-2010, 8:47 AM
Last night while I was sleeping someone attempted to break into my apartment through the front door, a great way to wake up! I was able to ready myself but it was with an empty SKS. I had previously gone to the range last weekend, ammunition stocks were limited since I had no time to pick up any ammunition for my rifle or pistol. The only ammunition I had on hand was 7.62x54R for my Mosin Nagant M44 and 22lr.

Thankfully getting close to the door and letting the bolt go on the SKS made the perp run away.

Questions

Am I allowed to use the bayonet to defend myself, is this frowned upon in the courts? (I do not want to accidentally hit someone with a round that goes through the perp)
Would there be any legal ramifications if I instead used my M44 and shot the perp (if he physically entered into my apartment and went after me) and the round when through him and into my neighbors apartment?

Always - always, always, always .... take off the cammies and helmet after you bayonet someone and before the TV reporters show up. A skewered bad guy makes for quite the story, you should be wearing your best Dunhill smoking jacket when police and press arrive. Answer any questions with only a "harumph" and "The scoundrel - thought he could bushwack me, eh?"

Left hand in pocket, right hand holding pipe.

You'll be fine ..... ;)

gunsmith
05-17-2010, 9:59 AM
Ditto on never relying on racking a shotgun or any other gun to scare someone.
People scare better when hard rain is penetrating them.
IMO racking a gun only lets them know where you are, my firearm is already loaded and cocked-all I need to do is point and shoot. What you should have done is skewered him with the bayonet and left it in his chest then shot him with your .22 and then call the cops and tell them, you caught someone in your house and he has my milsurp rifle!

USAFTS
05-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the support.... Following up the hit "40 ways to kill a man with a melon-baller" was no easy task. If it weren't for dedicated fans like yourself I doubt I could have done it.

LOLOL... I especially like the chapters on proper melon-baller concealment and its ambidextrous applications. I was unaware just how many different styles of IWB and Belt holsters were available.

cortayack
05-17-2010, 12:40 PM
Unless they're wearing more than a t-shirt, as .45 penetration is, shall we say, not the best.

That is the :rolleyes: thing I ever heard................LOL!


My brother's friend, chased a guy out his house one evening, and was shot by the man he was chasing with a .45. He took one shot to the chest. He didn't died but it put him, flat on his back. He has a huge nasty scare across his chest now.....

You are going to get different benifits from both calbiers....Its all up to what you need it for...But there was a reason the .45acp was developed and used for so long.....It has knock down power!

caoboy
05-17-2010, 1:01 PM
That is the :rolleyes: thing I ever heard................LOL!


My brother's friend, chased a guy out his house one evening, and was shot by the man he was chasing with a .45. He took one shot to the chest. He didn't died but it put him, flat on his back. He has a huge nasty scare across his chest now.....

You are going to get different benifits from both calbiers....Its all up to what you need it for...But there was a reason the .45acp was developed and used for so long.....It has knock down power!

NO NO NO, that was because he was running towards the bullet! :rolleyes:

IrishPirate
05-17-2010, 1:09 PM
get yourself 2 boxes of HD ammo. It might be a little expensive at first, but it's the last time you're hopefully going to have to buy some. Take one to the range and see how it performs in your pistol, and leave the other one at home. If you like the ammo, load up your mags. if not find something else. Whenever you go to the range, LEAVE THE HD AMMO AT YOUR HOUSE!!!! That way you can shoot all your other ammo, and still have ammo at home to defend yourself. It's called HOME Defense ammo for a reason....it shouldn't leave your home unless you CCW and then it becomes HD/SD ammo. Either way, one shoot it in defense of your life....never go plinking with it.

Nevermore
05-17-2010, 1:36 PM
If you are in reasonable fear for your life, you can legally use... a spatula ...any other item you can grab and reasonably use to defend yourself.

Prediction: Cold Steel will eventually market a "tactical" model made from VG-10 or San Mai steel with a G10 handle

Such a thing exists in the world of QuestionableContent.net:

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq34/NevermoreCG/qc-540-4.png (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=540)

N6ATF
05-17-2010, 1:37 PM
Haha.

IrishPirate
05-17-2010, 3:51 PM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/cookie5_12/gun%20stuff/10mm-1.jpg

Fate
05-17-2010, 4:11 PM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/cookie5_12/gun%20stuff/10mm-1.jpg

Funny, but 100% Photoshop on the 10mm.

IrishPirate
05-17-2010, 4:23 PM
Unless they're wearing more than a t-shirt, as .45 penetration is, shall we say, not the best.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4616511845_13e46bb285_o.jpg

still think so???

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/4617126486_f7cd9b75fd_o.jpg

postal
05-17-2010, 4:30 PM
Funny, but 100% Photoshop on the 10mm.

I like the black/orange mushroom cloud they put in the temp cav though!

stix213
05-17-2010, 4:33 PM
oh man

you had so little ammo you didn't even have HD ammo ready? man, you MUST be low on ammo. I NEVER dip into my HD ammo.

I always have 2 mags ready for my pistol and AR = 4 total mags.

Yeah I have 2 mags for my pistol and Saiga for a total of 4 mags of HP HD ammo always available even if I shoot through "all my ammo," as those 4 mags don't count. They stay loaded, with one locked in each firearm in the safe, and one of each on standby. When I go to the range those 4 mags always get left behind.

(Pistol is for an HD situation, while breaking out the Saiga would probably only happen if society broke down)

I'm picking up a Saiga 12 in just over a week, so will probably upgrade that to at least one 10 round Saiga 12 mag with 00 buck.

jamesob
05-17-2010, 8:07 PM
#1 buckshot, go read my link a few posts above.

i agree with 00 or#1, but if you live in an apartment and folks are on the other side of your walls, might not be the best choice.