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View Full Version : police contact with a finished 80% ar lower


destro360
05-12-2010, 4:03 PM
ok lots of people im seeing are finishing up their own "custom" 80% lowers for multiple reasons. i fully understand the attraction to this as far as cost, customizing, education etc. my question and concern lies here. from what i have read and understand once completed by yourself and only yourself legally you do not have to put any markings or serial numbers on them. (of course a serial would be good in case of theft) the problem i see is i cannot picture 98% of any leo not giving you a hell of a lot of attention or even letting you go with a gun that has no marking or markings that are "home made" i may be wrong but it seems most would try to call it stolen, a zip gun or illegally altered etc. unless of course the leo was very familiar with ar's and gunsmithing and the laws regarding these. has anyone else ran into this or have any info regarding it? is there a batf letter or statement that should be kept with ones custom lower? especially if you were to put a finish on the lower what is to stop a leo from "suspecting" that you may have covered up a stolen serial number etc?:(

cr250chevy
05-12-2010, 4:13 PM
I am not very versed in this area, however I have skimmed over many 80% build posts on this site. And I remember reading A LOT about how you MUST inscribe an id # onto your home-build guns. I also remember reading about a requirement that it penetrate into the metal a certain deepness....

Harrison_Bergeron
05-12-2010, 4:17 PM
I am not very versed in this area, however I have skimmed over many 80% build posts on this site. And I remember reading A LOT about how you MUST inscribe an id # onto your home-build guns. I also remember reading about a requirement that it penetrate into the metal a certain deepness....

This is only true if you are selling it or voluntarily registering it.

richzmn
05-12-2010, 4:40 PM
Stripped lower receivers are maked by company name, serial number, etc. When you buy a stripped lower, you should have a receipt and have to dros it.

Your not really building one. You are installing parts that you like.

richzmn
05-12-2010, 4:46 PM
Even if you painted it, the number would still show.

You should carry receipt and flowchart anyway.

Have a copy at home too, for when they kick in your door at 4AM.

Barabas
05-12-2010, 4:49 PM
He's talking about turning an 80% paperweight into a homemade firearm receiver, you aren't. There is no requirement to mark with a serial number a firearm receiver made for personal use only, with no intention of selling. If you ever sell it or transfer it, it must have a serial.


Trying to convince an LEO, without risking confiscation and handcuff time is going to be difficult at best, unless the officer has direct knowledge of homebuilds. Best advice remains; mark your receivers with a serial.

Call_me_Tom
05-12-2010, 4:49 PM
Rich, the topic is on 80% lowers not stripped lowers.

destro360
05-12-2010, 4:51 PM
Stripped lower receivers are maked by company name, serial number, etc. When you buy a stripped lower, you should have a receipt and have to dros it.

Your not really building one. You are installing parts that you like.

not to be rude but you either misread the post or are not familiar with the process of milling the fire control are and trigger slot etc of an 80% forged, cast or (my favorite) cnc billet lower. this does not require dros because it is not a fire arm until you make it into one yourself.

destro360
05-12-2010, 4:52 PM
Even if you painted it, the number would still show.

You should carry receipt and flowchart anyway.

Have a copy at home too, for when they kick in your door at 4AM.

anyone with experience in auotbody or any metal work at all would have no trouble grinding/filling any marking on a reciever to cover or "mask" the identity. follow that up with powder coating or any other heavy duty finish and you would see nothing.

POLICESTATE
05-12-2010, 4:56 PM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??

nick
05-12-2010, 4:59 PM
Stripped lower receivers are maked by company name, serial number, etc. When you buy a stripped lower, you should have a receipt and have to dros it.

Your not really building one. You are installing parts that you like.

They're talking about finishing 80% and less lowers.

destro360
05-12-2010, 4:59 PM
He's talking about turning an 80% paperweight into a homemade firearm receiver, you aren't. There is no requirement to mark with a serial number a firearm receiver made for personal use only, with no intention of selling. If you ever sell it or transfer it, it must have a serial.


Trying to convince an LEO, without risking confiscation and handcuff time is going to be difficult at best, unless the officer has direct knowledge of homebuilds. Best advice remains; mark your receivers with a serial.

im 100% in agreement with you on this. my onl question or concern is what would be considered an "appropriate serial" number in the eyes of mr. leo? the purpose of the home build is to customize even down to your own serial and using your rights to do such. i wonder what other folks have used as a method and how outrageous they got with the custom serial numbers?? i mean who wants to go through all this trouble just to stamp 12345 joe blow on it. i would like for mine to have meaning and be "one of a kind" so to speak. i wouldnt mind not having anything on it but maybe a laser engraved graphic but i fear harrassment from an un-educated leo as mentioned above...

thank you for the input so far im anxious to see what other chime in with on this.

nick
05-12-2010, 5:01 PM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??

It's an unfinished lower receiver. Per ATF, a receiver that's unfinished to a certain degree is not a firearm.

POLICESTATE
05-12-2010, 5:01 PM
They're talking about finishing 80% and less lowers.

I always thought it was the finish on the lower, like less bluing or something. So it's really about having less than all the parts on it? What's the point in that?

destro360
05-12-2010, 5:02 PM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??

google is worth a million words my friend ;) just take a look at some of the photos and desrciptions you find and you will get the idea.:)

Shotgun Man
05-12-2010, 5:06 PM
I always thought it was the finish on the lower, like less bluing or something. So it's really about having less than all the parts on it? What's the point in that?

There's no record of you buying it. You don't have to go through a FFL. You get the satisfaction of making your own gun.

five.five-six
05-12-2010, 5:06 PM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??

it's basicly an AR15 "flat"


http://quentin-laser.com/store/images/80%20sample%20pic.jpg http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/41600/41697/fc_approx_41697_lg.gif http://www.ifatactical.com/files/1772952/uploaded/AK%20Flat.jpg

steve92407
05-12-2010, 5:08 PM
my brother borrowed the buffer and machined his lower.he engraved it with his last name and dob . looks factory built.no one has ever questioned its manufacture.

destro360
05-12-2010, 5:09 PM
it's basicly an AR15 "flat"


http://quentin-laser.com/store/images/80%20sample%20pic.jpg

nice.... "quentin laser" picked up a box of 5 ;) solid one piece trigger gaurd and very meaty design. excellent 80%'s especially at the price.

POLICESTATE
05-12-2010, 5:09 PM
OIC, that makes more sense, the google images were still pretty confusing :rolleyes:

Woodymyster
05-12-2010, 5:10 PM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??

The ATF considers a receiver to be a receiver and thus a firearm when it is 80% complete. That means if you took a chunk of metal and started to make an AR lower receiver, it wouldn't be considered a gun until it was more than 80% complete.

So, it is possible to make a receiver to 80% completion and sell it without going thru firearm regulations. The purchaser would then complete the remaining 20% him/her-self.

cr250chevy
05-12-2010, 5:13 PM
He's talking about turning an 80% paperweight into a homemade firearm receiver, you aren't. There is no requirement to mark with a serial number a firearm receiver made for personal use only, with no intention of selling. If you ever sell it or transfer it, it must have a serial.


Trying to convince an LEO, without risking confiscation and handcuff time is going to be difficult at best, unless the officer has direct knowledge of homebuilds. Best advice remains; mark your receivers with a serial.

I stand corrected and now more informed :D Thanks Barabas!

I agree that it would be *VERY WISE* to put a serial number on it, but now that I know you do not HAVE to have one it, I'd be tempted to leave it blank just for the "cool factor" of not having any inscriptions on it :43:

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-12-2010, 6:40 PM
I fully marked mine. Why? Because I know full well that many of my former colleagues are not firearms-savvy and wouldn't know an 80% receiver if it landed on their heads.

Cool factor is nice, but is it worth the trouble? Not for me, but everyone has to decide that for themselves. <Why, oh why don't we have a cop smiley suggestively dangling a pair of handcuffs? That would be so very apropos right now...>

Noobert
05-12-2010, 6:42 PM
I fully marked mine. Why? Because I know full well that many of my former colleagues are not firearms-savvy and wouldn't know an 80% receiver if it landed on their heads.

Cool factor is nice, but is it worth the trouble? Not for me, but everyone has to decide that for themselves. <Why, oh why don't we have a cop smiley suggestively dangling a pair of handcuffs? That would be so very apropos right now...>

That actually would be a very useful smiley to have

Barabas
05-12-2010, 6:55 PM
i mean who wants to go through all this trouble just to stamp 12345 joe blow on it. i would like for mine to have meaning and be "one of a kind" so to speak. i wouldnt mind not having anything on it but maybe a laser engraved graphic but i fear harrassment from an un-educated leo as mentioned above...

thank you for the input so far im anxious to see what other chime in with on this.

Technically you can use any combination of make/model/serial as long as you can ensure you aren't duplicating a combo that exists already. I know a fellow who has a home made 10/22 receiver marked with his name, ROO-ARRRGH-10/22 SER1022, along with the city and state it was built in. It has a kangaroo with eyepatch cast into it as his logo.

There are some requirements regarding depth of the markings, but the figures aren't immediately coming to mind, so you'll have to look that up yourself.

GuyW
05-12-2010, 7:18 PM
Yes, one would be in danger of being arrested, charged, and possibly tried, for totally legal activities / property that meet the letter of federal and state laws.


ok lots of people im seeing are finishing up their own "custom" 80% lowers for multiple reasons. i fully understand the attraction to this as far as cost, customizing, education etc. my question and concern lies here. from what i have read and understand once completed by yourself and only yourself legally you do not have to put any markings or serial numbers on them. (of course a serial would be good in case of theft) the problem i see is i cannot picture 98% of any leo not giving you a hell of a lot of attention or even letting you go with a gun that has no marking or markings that are "home made" i may be wrong but it seems most would try to call it stolen, a zip gun or illegally altered etc. unless of course the leo was very familiar with ar's and gunsmithing and the laws regarding these. has anyone else ran into this or have any info regarding it? is there a batf letter or statement that should be kept with ones custom lower? especially if you were to put a finish on the lower what is to stop a leo from "suspecting" that you may have covered up a stolen serial number etc?:(

richzmn
05-12-2010, 7:22 PM
Hey destro360,

Thanks for the info, I've never heard about the 80% lower. I thought even flats would have numbers?

This just seems like a road no one has to go down?

Noobert
05-12-2010, 7:29 PM
Hey destro360,

Thanks for the info, I've never heard about the 80% lower. I thought even flats would have numbers?

This just seems like a road no one has to go down?

Flats are just a flat piece of metal (mostly flat), without numbers. If you stick around the "gunsmithing" forum, you see how many people build 80% AR/AK's

JagerTroop
05-12-2010, 7:39 PM
This just seems like a road no one has to go down?

Been down that road many times. It's a fun trip, every time :)

For many, it's the only road that leads to an AR/AK pistol. It's totally legal.

Just like owning ANY "evil black rifle/pistol", if it looks scary, then many people think it's illegal. Know the law. Have ATF letters, penal codes, etc. at the ready, and hopefully you leave without matching bracelets. Sadly, it's something all California gun owners must be prepared to face.

nick
05-12-2010, 7:51 PM
I always thought it was the finish on the lower, like less bluing or something. So it's really about having less than all the parts on it? What's the point in that?

No, it doesn't have certain holes drilled and FCG pocket needs to be milled out.

The point of that is the same as in bending AK flats.

CSACANNONEER
05-12-2010, 8:08 PM
The only interaction I've had with LEOs and 80% receivers has been helping them build their own!

As far as SNs go, you need more than just a SN to legally transfer it. Also, all required markings need to be at least a certain size and depth. Personally, non of my homebuilds are marked and they probably never will be.

Here's my second build:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/003-1.jpg

destro360
05-12-2010, 9:01 PM
Been down that road many times. It's a fun trip, every time :)

For many, it's the only road that leads to an AR/AK pistol. It's totally legal.

Just like owning ANY "evil black rifle/pistol", if it looks scary, then many people think it's illegal. Know the law. Have ATF letters, penal codes, etc. at the ready, and hopefully you leave without matching bracelets. Sadly, it's something all California gun owners must be prepared to face.

ok first i'll thank everyone for the input... now i'll remind everyone that the reason for the post was to be sent in the right direction for information/ letters that i need/should/will print out and keep with my lowers. ;) also maybe some info on people in ca that can do etching possibly?

dantodd
05-12-2010, 9:17 PM
Just out of curiosity. For all those who believe this might end up in an arrest, what PC would a police officer think is being violated?

nick
05-12-2010, 9:29 PM
Just out of curiosity. For all those who believe this might end up in an arrest, what PC would a police officer think is being violated?

When did breaking a law become a requirement for an arrest? :confused:

It'll probably be 12020, and the claim will be that it's a zip gun.

destro360
05-12-2010, 9:36 PM
I fully marked mine. Why? Because I know full well that many of my former colleagues are not firearms-savvy and wouldn't know an 80% receiver if it landed on their heads.

Cool factor is nice, but is it worth the trouble? Not for me, but everyone has to decide that for themselves. <Why, oh why don't we have a cop smiley suggestively dangling a pair of handcuffs? That would be so very apropos right now...>


dont get me wrong here. im not trying to attract attention or show off. im trying to keep my a** out of hot water i cant afford/ dont need. i dont have any means to make a clean engraving on this so its obviously going to have to wait til i find a smith or company close to me that can put a simple serial and some sort of graphic on it but in the mean time i'd like to know my options and be able to present some sort of documents to a leo if there is an encounter. GOD FORBID THERE IS:eek:

Pyrodyne
05-12-2010, 9:37 PM
PC 12091. Possession of any pistol or revolver upon which the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark of
identification has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated, shall be presumptive evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed, or obliterated the same.

This seems the most likely to me.

CHS
05-12-2010, 10:31 PM
They would probably try to get you either on a zip gun charge or the obliteration of markings charge.

Well, if something never had markings to begin with, there was nothing to obliterate. That will be pretty easy to prove in court.

And if it's not a Title 2 firearm, it's not a zip gun. So that's a slam dunk.

The firearms that I build will NEVER have serial numbers or any other markings on them.










But.... I can also explain to a LEO as to WHY my firearms are legal... Can YOU?

calixt0
05-12-2010, 10:45 PM
OIC, that makes more sense, the google images were still pretty confusing :rolleyes:

Imagine a hunk of aluminum that has been milled 80% of the way to being a complete ar15 frame. 80% of the milling and drilling and work is done and 20% still needs to be completed. because it is not completed the ATF/DOG doesn't consider them a finished firearm. From what I understand you can buy these 80 lowers and finish it yourself and have a firearm that does not need to be registered or labeled. you are allowed to do 1 for yourself. if you intend to frequently buy and finish and sell these then you become a manufacturer. this is intended for personal use and that alone

socalblue
05-12-2010, 10:46 PM
anyone with experience in auotbody or any metal work at all would have no trouble grinding/filling any marking on a reciever to cover or "mask" the identity. follow that up with powder coating or any other heavy duty finish and you would see nothing.

Any competent inspector would find it in about 90 seconds. It's a felony to alter or destroy a serial number.

destro360
05-12-2010, 10:52 PM
They would probably try to get you either on a zip gun charge or the obliteration of markings charge.

Well, if something never had markings to begin with, there was nothing to obliterate. That will be pretty easy to prove in court.

And if it's not a Title 2 firearm, it's not a zip gun. So that's a slam dunk.

The firearms that I build will NEVER have serial numbers or any other markings on them.










But.... I can also explain to a LEO as to WHY my firearms are legal... Can YOU?

yes i can explain til im blue in the face problem is this doesnt mean a officer of the law will like me any more or believe what i have to say any further... not to say that all will be rude or uneducated but there is always that one bad apple. not to get too in depth but i will mention that a few years ago a police officer decided to arrest me under the charges of resisting arrest for asking him "what the problem was?" and why he was stopping me inside of a gas station for a traffic violation on a bicycle.... my questions and trying to engage in conversation translated to something he did not like and ended me up in hand cuffs for a few hours. of course i hired an attorney and charges were dropped but it cost me $2,500 dollars plus missed work etc. the experience was eye opening and made me realize there is a big difference between what you are legally able to do and what a police officer decides he wants to do outside the law. charges dropped, yes... did i win? hell no. i lost money time and got treated like a piece of dirt over one officers bad day. i tread lightly when it come to leo no matter even before this and i do my home work but this all means very little to the man who calls the shots imo.

destro360
05-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Any competent inspector would find it in about 90 seconds. It's a felony to alter or destroy a serial number.

very true after it has been confiscated, taken in, the finish stripped and destroyed while the owner (you) sit behind bars.... not something i want to do anytime soon.

jlh95811
05-12-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm going to stamp the relevant penal code(s) on my future builds. No other markings will be present.

stitchnicklas
05-12-2010, 11:13 PM
just seems that i would be less hassel to just buy a completed stripped lower....imo...:beatdeadhorse5:

dantodd
05-12-2010, 11:45 PM
just seems that i would be less hassel to just buy a completed stripped lower....imo...:beatdeadhorse5:

simply not owning any firearms would be even less hassle.

CHS
05-13-2010, 12:16 AM
I'm going to stamp the relevant penal code(s) on my future builds. No other markings will be present.

I was just thinking.. If I did actually end up stamping any serials on a home build, maybe they'd just be profane. Why not?

Model: BRADYSUX
Serial: FUAWB01

limitdown
05-13-2010, 6:49 AM
It's extremely difficult for non-LEOs to purchase AR15 pistols, so I bought an 80% from Quentin, machined it, marked it, then slapped on a 7.5inch Model1Sales upper. Voila, AR15 pistol.

franklinarmory
05-13-2010, 7:22 AM
ok lots of people im seeing are finishing up their own "custom" 80% lowers for multiple reasons. i fully understand the attraction to this as far as cost, customizing, education etc. my question and concern lies here. from what i have read and understand once completed by yourself and only yourself legally you do not have to put any markings or serial numbers on them. (of course a serial would be good in case of theft) the problem i see is i cannot picture 98% of any leo not giving you a hell of a lot of attention or even letting you go with a gun that has no marking or markings that are "home made" i may be wrong but it seems most would try to call it stolen, a zip gun or illegally altered etc. unless of course the leo was very familiar with ar's and gunsmithing and the laws regarding these. has anyone else ran into this or have any info regarding it? is there a batf letter or statement that should be kept with ones custom lower? especially if you were to put a finish on the lower what is to stop a leo from "suspecting" that you may have covered up a stolen serial number etc?:(

Here's the definition of a zip gun under 12020 PC:

(10) As used in this section, a "zip gun" means any weapon or
device which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed
pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of
the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(B) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a
manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section
921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations
issued pursuant thereto.
(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption
from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181
and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing
with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States
Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(D) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an
explosion or other form of combustion.

An 80% lower is consistent with the definitions of sections A, C, & D. However,since the forging is not a firearm (yet,) could it qualify as an item that is "not originally designed to be a firearm" under section B? My guess is that it would not qualify for the definition in section B, but my point is that there is a narrow gate here where the home hobbyist is traveling through.

Besides 12091, 537e PC Is another section covering possession of property with obliterated serial numbers. Most cops would attempt to charge both sections and let the DA plead something away (if it ever got that far.)

As pointed out earlier, it might be tough to explain to Mr. LEO why your firearm doesn't have a serial number, and he may decide to confiscate your weapon for further analysis. :( All this considered, if you make a firearm out of an 80% lower, I highly recommend that you consider adding a serial number to it.

CHS
05-13-2010, 8:05 AM
(10) As used in this section, a "zip gun" means any weapon or
device which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed
pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of
the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(B) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a
manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section
921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations
issued pursuant thereto.
(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption
from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181
and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing
with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States
Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(D) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an
explosion or other form of combustion.


Read the definition again.

C is the key to home-built guns not being zip guns, even if they are new designs.

Unless they are Title 2 firearms, no tax is owed. Therefore, they have a de-facto exemption granted.

I've always concluded that the writers of this law actually knew what they were doing, and wrote it to specifically allow for the home hobbyist to build legitimate title 1 firearms for personal use.

Funny thing is, because of the NFA and Title 2 taxes, there are already SEVERE Federal penalties for building a Title 2 firearm without paying your tax. But that's California for you. California LOOOVES to write laws that basically mirror Federal law. Like they think they can do a better job than the Fed's or something.

destro360
05-13-2010, 9:22 AM
just seems that i would be less hassel to just buy a completed stripped lower....imo...:beatdeadhorse5:

this is the idea i believe they want most folks under... "why do something completely legal well within my rights that might get me arrested?"

picture it like this.. we are the horse, ca laws have the club haha :beatdeadhorse5:

Rob454
05-13-2010, 10:07 AM
Not to sound n00b or anything but what is an 80% lower??


Sort of like a AK receiver flat that has all the holes etc but its not bent into a actual receiver. I looked into a 80% receiver but I decided to go for a fully completed one so i can just get rid of the possible PITA factor for my first build. maybe if I do another build ill do a 80% but I doubt it.

franklinarmory
05-13-2010, 10:51 AM
Read the definition again.

C is the key to home-built guns not being zip guns, even if they are new designs.

Unless they are Title 2 firearms, no tax is owed. Therefore, they have a de-facto exemption granted.

I've always concluded that the writers of this law actually knew what they were doing, and wrote it to specifically allow for the home hobbyist to build legitimate title 1 firearms for personal use.

Funny thing is, because of the NFA and Title 2 taxes, there are already SEVERE Federal penalties for building a Title 2 firearm without paying your tax. But that's California for you. California LOOOVES to write laws that basically mirror Federal law. Like they think they can do a better job than the Fed's or something.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I think that section c said that a zip gun IS a gun that no tax was paid on. Of course there are many legal guns that are not subject to federal excise tax, but zip guns must meet all four qualifications under 12020

CHS
05-13-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm not a legal scholar, but I think that section c said that a zip gun IS a gun that no tax was paid on. Of course there are many legal guns that are not subject to federal excise tax, but zip guns must meet all four qualifications under 12020

Read it again:

(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption
from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181
and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing
with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States
Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

What they're saying is that if a tax is due (which it's not on a homebuilt weapon), you either didn't pay it or didn't get an exemption = zip gun.

When you build a Title 1 firearm at home, you DO NOT OWE a tax to ANYONE for it. You are exempted because no tax is due to begin with.

If it was a Title 2 firearm, a $200 (or $5) tax is owed.

The classic "zip gun" would be classified by the ATF as an AOW and a $200 tax would be owed by you to build one or a $5 tax to transfer one.

Texas Boy
05-13-2010, 3:53 PM
;) also maybe some info on people in ca that can do etching possibly?

Any machine shop with CNC equipment should be able to engrave just about anything you like in your receiver. Finding one that is firearms friendly might be a different matter, but a few calls should net you someone willing. You might also look at people who custom engrave guns (mainly for show, old SA type revolvers, etc). I'm sure a custom gun engraver could help you out.

Another area to consider is hobby machinists. There are a number of people (like myself) who own small CNC milling machines which are capable of engraving markings. In fact, that was one of my motivations for getting my CNC mill - to mark my home built lower (still haven't built one yet...). So, anyone in the San Jose area who has a legal home built lower and would like to engrave proper markings, feel free to drop me a PM.

Bottom line - if you have a legal home built receiver it would be wise to place proper markings on it, and doing so should not be a problem.

Barabas
05-13-2010, 5:23 PM
If you have a laser printer you can print your negative design in reverse, lay it where you want your design, use acetone to get the toner to stick to your bare receiver and then electro-etch it with an electrolyte and a DC wall wart.

You don't need to CNC or engrave your markings, you can etch or punch, as long as you meet the requirements for depth and height. With etching, you can get any design you can print on a sheet of paper as long as the lines aren't too fine.

CSACANNONEER
05-13-2010, 6:21 PM
dont get me wrong here. im not trying to attract attention or show off. im trying to keep my a** out of hot water i cant afford/ dont need. i dont have any means to make a clean engraving on this so its obviously going to have to wait til i find a smith or company close to me that can put a simple serial and some sort of graphic on it but in the mean time i'd like to know my options and be able to present some sort of documents to a leo if there is an encounter. GOD FORBID THERE IS:eek:

You can buy a stamp set for less than $10 at HF and do it yourself.

I was just thinking.. If I did actually end up stamping any serials on a home build, maybe they'd just be profane. Why not?

Model: BRADYSUX
Serial: FUAWB01

I've always been partial to:

SN # FUDIFI0001

Or course, model: AR69 or AK69 would be a hoot to hear a LEO try to explain over the air.

destro360
05-13-2010, 9:34 PM
If you have a laser printer you can print your negative design in reverse, lay it where you want your design, use acetone to get the toner to stick to your bare receiver and then electro-etch it with an electrolyte and a DC wall wart.

You don't need to CNC or engrave your markings, you can etch or punch, as long as you meet the requirements for depth and height. With etching, you can get any design you can print on a sheet of paper as long as the lines aren't too fine.

im fully aware of the many "cheap" methods that could be used ie: stamps and a hammer, an electric little etcher thingy, a buck knife, dremmel tool etc but i want a custom graffic with detail and a pro look when its done. i'm actually considering having a custom serial and image put on it and then polishing it to a mirror finish......

arfan66
05-13-2010, 10:48 PM
FYI - S/N, model, city & state of manufacture must be 1/16" hi & .003" deep. I used a Dremel vibro etch tool for my AK pistol build.

artherd
05-13-2010, 11:08 PM
Best way to stay out of jail here is to deeply engrave an SN and other info, then volreg it.

Barabas
05-14-2010, 7:59 AM
im fully aware of the many "cheap" methods that could be used ie: stamps and a hammer, an electric little etcher thingy, a buck knife, dremmel tool etc but i want a custom graffic with detail and a pro look when its done. i'm actually considering having a custom serial and image put on it and then polishing it to a mirror finish......

I suggest that you start a new thread in the Gunsmithing section since this thread is being derailed into a techniques thread instead of a legal thread.

CHS
05-14-2010, 8:39 AM
I suggest that you start a new thread in the Gunsmithing section since this thread is being derailed into a techniques thread instead of a legal thread.

I agree.

And with that I'll add another two cents:

While the idea of registration is deplorable to me, I do actually like the fact that if a cop sees you with a homebuilt AK pistol and makes remarks like "WHAT?! That can't be legal!" you can just smugly say "check the registration ;)"

CSACANNONEER
05-15-2010, 7:33 AM
Best way to stay out of jail here is to deeply engrave an SN and other info, then volreg it.

I agree.

And with that I'll add another two cents:

While the idea of registration is deplorable to me, I do actually like the fact that if a cop sees you with a homebuilt AK pistol and makes remarks like "WHAT?! That can't be legal!" you can just smugly say "check the registration ;)"

I wonder if DOJ will accept a vol reg for a homebuilt handgun without a SN. Has anyone tried this?

destro360
05-15-2010, 7:53 AM
what is "vol registration"? and i wonder if anyone on here has actually been through this scenario? i mean as far as a leo checking out their guns that have no sn....

asheron2
05-15-2010, 12:37 PM
The only interaction I've had with LEOs and 80% receivers has been helping them build their own!

Lol, same interaction ive had here, the local LEO's love building their own %80 firearms and i get a heft service fee for letting them use my tooling :P

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq257/asheron2/l_ba68276526333ec41f915945f5b08dfa.jpg

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq257/asheron2/IMG_0751-2.jpg

motorhead
05-15-2010, 1:20 PM
there's a certain beauty in a firearm with no marking and no paperwork. does it even really exist?

jester
05-15-2010, 3:59 PM
Stripped lower receivers are maked by company name, serial number, etc. When you buy a stripped lower, you should have a receipt and have to dros it.

Your not really building one. You are installing parts that you like.

you missed the point..

curtisfong
05-15-2010, 7:29 PM
just seems that i would be less hassel to just buy a completed stripped lower....imo...:beatdeadhorse5:

DROS, 10 day wait, blah blah.

You honestly don't see the draw to building a firearm using *just parts* you can buy anywhere, for cash, w/o any government interference?

You know, like we *should* be able to do with ANY firearm without the hassle of .. well.. the government interfering?

wildhawker
05-15-2010, 8:01 PM
I wonder if DOJ will accept a vol reg for a homebuilt handgun without a SN. Has anyone tried this?

DOJ is having a difficult time processing regs already in the pipeline. I expect that such a test would result in at least one phone call from DOJ and a number of months before your check was deposited.

destro360
05-17-2010, 11:21 AM
I suggest that you start a new thread in the Gunsmithing section since this thread is being derailed into a techniques thread instead of a legal thread.

well in keeping with the intention of this thread to find some letters or documention to print out and keep with my un-marked lower til i decide what i want to do with it then i think its best suited here.... there is a lot of mixed input here and im still not sure what i want to do...

Barabas
05-17-2010, 12:23 PM
Part of the reason for directing you to the gunsmithing section is because everything you need to know to keep legal has already been discussed, documented, hashed out, etc. This went from asking about LEO interaction and rights, to techniques. If you are unsure about what to do, doing the research in the gunsmithing forum and then checking out the primary sources discussed there might give you the direction you need to make a decision. Let me get you started by directing you to hoffmang's excellent primer: Homebuilt AK (and other firearms) - Serial Numbers and other issues (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627)

destro360
05-17-2010, 8:27 PM
Part of the reason for directing you to the gunsmithing section is because everything you need to know to keep legal has already been discussed, documented, hashed out, etc. This went from asking about LEO interaction and rights, to techniques. If you are unsure about what to do, doing the research in the gunsmithing forum and then checking out the primary sources discussed there might give you the direction you need to make a decision. Let me get you started by directing you to hoffmang's excellent primer: Homebuilt AK (and other firearms) - Serial Numbers and other issues (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627)

"not sure" as in whether to put a serial or not and so far i have seen nothing that i can put on paper that will give me any deffense in the event of "police contact" my recievers are finished and only at the point of whether i decide to mark or not before deciding on a finish (anodized, ceramic etc) thats why i was still curious to whether anyone else has actually ran into this situation and what they actually carry paperwork wise...

Harrison_Bergeron
05-19-2010, 4:51 PM
There is no paperwork available because laws say what you are not allowed to do, not what you are allowed to do. Not every issue has a court case associated with it.

whitey
05-20-2010, 5:02 AM
The ATF considers a receiver to be a receiver and thus a firearm when it is 80% complete. That means if you took a chunk of metal and started to make an AR lower receiver, it wouldn't be considered a gun until it was more than 80% complete.

So, it is possible to make a receiver to 80% completion and sell it without going thru firearm regulations. The purchaser would then complete the remaining 20% him/her-self.


Where can you buy a 79% lower receiver.

XJJack
05-20-2010, 8:43 AM
Where can you buy a 79% lower receiver.

It is not an exact % it is just spacific areas that can not have any work done yet. There are many places on the net to order these. I used nice billet ones from yellowdog. There are also jigs from Justin to finish the work with a drill press.