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View Full Version : Really weird question on NFA longarm-length rules...


1JimMarch
05-11-2010, 10:09 PM
As I'm sure y'all are aware, there's all kinds of minimum length limits on guns that have shoulder stocks, minimum barrel lengths, minimum overall lengths, etc.

And California's state rules mostly re-hash these.

But...do they apply to this guy?

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-4/verne-troyer-3.jpg

Seriously, if this dude had a rifle built for HIS size specs or other "short people" that was actually usable, he'd be way sideways with the NFA and state equivalents.

Could he be busted, or would the rules for lack of discrimination on the basis of handicap/disability mean he's operating under a different playbook?

CHS
05-11-2010, 10:44 PM
I have always thought that these kinds of cases are what will ultimately do in certain things about the NFA such as suppressors, SBR's and SBS's.

We might never win Machineguns back, but maybe we'll be able to get rid of the absurd '86 restriction.

In CA, a guy without a right arm is going to be key in destroying the "safe" handgun roster, since he can't get the gun he wants in an ambidextrous version. Just a right-handed version :)

GoodEyeSniper
05-11-2010, 10:50 PM
anyone have a hacksaw handy?

Telperion
05-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Could he be busted, or would the rules for lack of discrimination on the basis of handicap/disability mean he's operating under a different playbook?

What "rules for lack of discrimination" are there in the NFA?

1JimMarch
05-11-2010, 11:40 PM
I'm 6'4" so this is all theoretical to me :).

The "rules for lack of discrimination" are the various Federal protections for the disabled - the sort of thing that mandates wheelchair ramps all over the place. None of it is built into the NFA. The point is, the NFA would in theory have to be adjusted in such cases to meet the needs of a guy like this.

In theory. Dunno if any court rulings have actually held such.

Now, FredieUSA automatically thought "hunting". Horsecrap. Under Heller personal defense is perfectly valid and especially protected. Now, there's no way this dude is going to use an AR platform rifle effectively, right? It'd be a bad joke. So what WOULD an equivalent personal defense longarm look like for somebody like this?

Ignoring California law for now, worrying about Federal rules only...how about a Ruger 10/22 rifle in 22Magnum, with bigger mags, chopped and custom stock, maybe 14" overall and an 8" barrel? Weight around 3lbs or so? In terms of tactical effectiveness, that's probably about as close as he could get with a mildly customized gun...and wouldn't be half bad in a "repel boarders" situation. For more money, something more heavily customized using, say, an FN5.7 handgun converted to a small rifle might make sense. Trigger would have to be relocated away from the magazine as the stock grip would be WAY too big. Or chop up an FN P90 in the same caliber.

If those are illegal for him without getting into crazy NFA paperwork, then he doesn't have the same self defense ability under the law as somebody normal size. That's a problem under a mixture of Heller and the various anti-discrimination-against-the-disabled rules.

Note that as "little people" go this dude is unusually small so he's kind of an extreme example.

dantodd
05-11-2010, 11:46 PM
So what WOULD an equivalent personal defense longarm look like for somebody like this?

1911 with shoulder stock to help him deal with the recoil. 12ga trench gun.

1JimMarch
05-12-2010, 12:02 AM
1911 with shoulder stock to help him deal with the recoil. 12ga trench gun.

Nope. Ain't no way he's wrapping hands around a 1911 grip - you'd have to relocate the trigger to a second much smaller grip and that would be a pain. And a 12ga would knock him flat on his teensy little butt. .410 *maybe*.

I think the 22Magnum or FN 5.7 rounds make far more sense. Modified .380 subgun maybe. The guy's only 2 feet tall(!), can't weigh more than what, 30lbs? Recoil is a major problem. I can see using a Ruger LCR in 38Spl with custom smaller grips and a short shoulder stock to deal with recoil.

wildhawker
05-12-2010, 12:18 AM
Nope. Ain't no way he's wrapping hands around a 1911 grip - you'd have to relocate the trigger to a second much smaller grip and that would be a pain. And a 12ga would knock him flat on his teensy little butt. .410 *maybe*.

I think the 22Magnum or FN 5.7 rounds make far more sense. Modified .380 subgun maybe. The guy's only 2 feet tall(!), can't weigh more than what, 30lbs? Recoil is a major problem. I can see using a Ruger LCR in 38Spl with custom smaller grips and a short shoulder stock to deal with recoil.

Why would we want to make an argument that reasonable regulations might include class qualifiers or some sort of tiered ceiling based on conditions?

Tools as may be protected under 2A should be freely accessible to all not otherwise prohibited persons. The USDA food chart for guns is not what I'd look forward to as a little person, amputee, lanky runner, stroke victim, arthritic or otherwise.

crackerman
05-12-2010, 12:28 AM
Anything that can help overturn the dumb laws, I still want a suppressor. Hey if they can have them in Britain Australia etc..

nicki
05-12-2010, 1:49 AM
The issues will come down to what kind of scruntiny proection will the courts give us, once we have that, then we can go after various gun restrictions.

What I hope will happen is the government will have to show compelling reasons for so called restrictions.

The NFA was an attempt to tax out of existence as many guns as they could so they picked the evil crime guns.

Many states had restrctions on handguns by 1934, but rifles and shotguns were readily available.

I wouldn't be surprised if the real purpose of NFA restrictions was to dry up alternatives to restricted handguns. The truth is in many parts of the country handgun sales were restricted if you happened to be non white.

The Miller ruling said the 2A protected common arms that would be useful in military service. This of course was pre WW2.

The standard US rifle in 1939 was a bolt action rifle like many other countries, shotguns were actually banned by the Geneva Convention for use in warfare.

Now of course things have changed in the last 70 years. SBRs are standard miltary rifle and the standard miltary rifle worldwide is select fire. Sound suppressors, especially for urban combat are very useful, especially in close quarters.

SBS of 14 inches are becoming standard police lengths.

The only reason we may have issues with full auto is Justice Kennedy, but who knows, after victory on other issues, he may flip.


You can buy rifle caliber handguns, just can't have a stock on it, so if you look at the NFA

destro360
05-12-2010, 2:04 AM
lets not forget the shoe he is standing next to is like a 22 or 24 (very large)

1JimMarch
05-12-2010, 6:20 AM
I looked up his bio - turns out he's 2ft 8in tall.