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View Full Version : California gun laws are the most restrictive...


GunPhonatic
05-10-2010, 8:43 PM
We are the only ones limited to 10 round mags, have to use a bullet button, have to go by a banlist(rifles) and a roster(handguns)...

What about other states? I know that NJ has a mag limit of 15 rounds...

Shotgun Man
05-10-2010, 8:55 PM
I believe it. It sucks to be us.

This post reminds of an Auschwitz inmate wondering whether those in Treblinka had it worse.

Cokebottle
05-10-2010, 9:00 PM
There are several other states that are arguably worse.
Example: Several where there is ZERO chance of getting a CCW, while in California, it's up to the SO, and some counties are as close to "shall issue" as you can get.
MD has laws very similar to California (with no CCW).
Several NorthEastern states still follow the guidelines of the Federal AW ban (no flash hiders, threaded barrels, or bayo lugs).

patriot_man
05-10-2010, 9:02 PM
There are several other states that are arguably worse.
Example: Several where there is ZERO chance of getting a CCW, while in California, it's up to the SO, and some counties are as close to "shall issue" as you can get.
MD has laws very similar to California (with no CCW).
Several NorthEastern states still follow the guidelines of the Federal AW ban (no flash hiders, threaded barrels, or bayo lugs).

I guess we have it better than them :D

todd2968
05-10-2010, 9:03 PM
NJ you have to have a permit to own a handgun.
Illinois you have to have a Fire arm identity card issued by state police to own any gun/ rifle or buy ammo.

GunPhonatic
05-10-2010, 9:14 PM
ok so Far, CA, IL, NJ, MD , any more?

dfletcher
05-10-2010, 9:39 PM
MA is not very good, they have a similar roster set up. NY is not too good, especially on handguns.

Doheny
05-10-2010, 9:42 PM
It's interesting that if you can get a CA CCW, it's less restrictive than many states that are shall issue. With a CA CCW, you can pretty much carry anywhere, including schools, etc... (unless your issuing agency has put its own restrictions on the permit.)

chuckdc
05-10-2010, 9:47 PM
Check out the laws in Hawaii. When they got their 10-round mag limit, the old ones weren't grandfathered in. They had to modify their existing mags and make them 10 rounders. Also no real CCW, and lots more.

M198
05-10-2010, 10:04 PM
California is #1 on the Brady's report card.

Glock-matic
05-10-2010, 10:21 PM
NJ comes to mind as one of the worst. Read their laws about transporting as an out of state resident. Hawaii is very California like. MD, NY, IL, are fairly bad. Lets talk about this one next year.

Window_Seat
05-10-2010, 10:33 PM
Don't get caught at an airport in NJ or NY, even if your plane has to make an emergency landing on its way from Utah to PA... Hopefully these issues will be resolved sometime after McDonald.

Revell v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=09-2029&s=NJ&d=43309)

ETA: I guess you can't have "hollow point" ammo in NJ either. :rolleyes:

Erik.

Milsurp Collector
05-10-2010, 11:35 PM
http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BE400A_GUNS_NS_20100218212558.gif

Go to http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws to see details of gun laws by state. Obviously, the states they think are the best (like California) are the worst, and the states they think are the worst are the best.

bwiese
05-11-2010, 12:02 AM
The Brady scorecard doesn't have that much relevance in some ways. It was scored to their own views of importance.

California gun control is different than other offensive states like NY, NJ, MD, and MA (and IL for various matters).

In CA, if you're in a traffic stop, don't look like a dirtbag, and you have a unloaded/locked firearm with you and no other issues, you're generally gonna be on your way in !~10 minutes. This is often not the case in those other states - for example, MD has a 'specific destination' for handguns, and I'd bet rifle transport has aggressive scrutiny as well. While you can have AWs etc in MA there are other onerous rules stricter than CA gun laws.

CA generally has statewide preemption of local gun BS. NY vs NYC doesn't, unsure of other areas....

CA has a pretty useful 'castle doctrine'; these other states don't.

CA passed the "Katrina bill" - guns not seizable in times of emergency.
(Since then, there are Fed protections as well - but these states have not passed their own Katrina bills so issues in those states may end up in court first.)

CA statutory law is shaped by CA regulatory law. There's no fuzziness allowed in bypassing regulation. Other 'older' East coast states may not have as good a regulatory structure, and things like gun features might be left up in the air for interpretation.

CA does not have a "firearms ID card" that, if it expires, makes you in illegal possession of your guns. (The HSC just gates handgun acquisition, and your rights do not expire if it expires.)

Somehow I still feel less restricted in CA than I do in these other states; I have more hope in quick CA gunrights progress than I do in those states - the fights will be longer there, though the improved Fed situation will cause improvements there. Despite all the issues in CA, our polity is a bit more open/libertarian than the East coast.

Scratch705
05-11-2010, 12:11 AM
and yet CA is the most hated by outside gun owners... when there are other states worse than us.

Milsurp Collector
05-11-2010, 12:46 AM
and yet CA is the most hated by outside gun owners... when there are other states worse than us.

Gun owners in other states don't hate California, they just don't like to sell firearms to Californians because California DOJ puts additional bureaucratic hurdles and obstacles in the way that they don't have to deal with when shipping to other states. Imagine living outside of California and finding out you have to deal with this (with a few exceptions) to ship to a California FFL:


About CFLC

As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows.

The verification approval number, which the Bureau of Firearms provides in a Firearms Shipment Approval letter, confirms that the intended recipient of the firearm shipment is properly licensed and listed in the state's database of persons/entities authorized to receive firearm shipments. If the intended CA FFL recipient is not listed in the state's database, the transaction will result in a Do Not Ship letter, and it is a crime for the intended recipient to receive the firearms (Penal Code Section 12083(c)(1)).

As a courtesy to impacted FFLs, the Bureau of Firearms has established an Internet application that is available to FFLs nationwide 24 hours a day 7 days a week (24/7) to obtain Firearms Shipment Approval letters. All Internet transactions will be handled on a secure server, and the information provided will be used solely for the purposes associated with the administration of the CFLC program. For FFLs that do not have Internet access, the Bureau has established a telephone service that allows nationwide FFL shippers to enroll and obtain Firearms Shipment Approval letters via telephone or facsimile prior to shipping firearms to a California FFL. However, the telephone service availability will be limited to Monday through Friday 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time.

For additional information regarding this new program, please refer to our CFLC Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).

Enrolling in CFLC

You must have a valid FFL number to enroll in CFLC. Enrollment is a one-time process. There are several ways you can enroll. You can use the Internet, or mail/fax an enrollment application to the Bureau of Firearms.

To enroll using the CFLC Internet application, use the link in the "Not yet enrolled in CFLC?" section on the CFLC home page. After completing the CFLC enrollment process, you will be able to log in to CFLC to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval letter. Also an enrollment acknowledgement email message containing your CFLC Logon ID and Password will be sent to the email address entered on the enrollment screen.

To enroll by mail or fax, complete the California Firearms Licensee Check Enrollment Application and return it to the Bureau of Firearms. Once your application is processed, you will receive an enrollment confirmation letter that includes a telephone/fax number you can use to request Firearms Shipment Approval letters via fax or mail.
Obtaining a Firearms Shipment Verification Approval Letter

To obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval letter 24 hours a day from the CFLC Internet application, Logon to CFLC. You will need the CFLC Logon ID and Password you received during the Internet or mail/fax enrollment process. You will also need the five digit Centralized List (CL) number of the CA FFL to whom you intend to ship firearms.

You can also request a Firearms Shipment Approval letter by calling the telephone number listed on your enrollment verification letter or faxing/mailing a CFLC Firearms Shipment Approval Letter Request Form to the Bureau of Firearms. However, you must have enrolled in CFLC prior to submitting a Firearms Shipment Approval Letter Request Form.

Firearms Shipment Approval letter requests received via phone, fax, or mail will be processed Monday through Friday between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. After processing your request, the Bureau of Firearms will fax you a Firearms Shipment Approval letter containing the verification approval number.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview.php

as well as having to worry about selling a California-prohibited firearm or magazine to a Californian.

yellowfin
05-11-2010, 3:36 AM
People dislike California on the issue of firearms because it exports anti gun population and laws to other states and sends Pelosi et al to DC. From that perspective it's no wonder, isn't it? I myself learned there's more to it but that took firsthand exposure and not everyone can experience that.

Suvorov
05-11-2010, 7:05 AM
Kalifornia laws do suck, but I'll agree with others that we still have it better than many other states.

The act of obtaining a firearm legally (especially a handgun) is far easier in Kalifornia than it is in New York or New Jersey.

You don't need a permit to own a gun here.

Magazine limits are a pain, but I'm sure most of us all bought normal capacity magazines long before the 2000 ban.

And the big one for me, as Bill has already mentioned, is that self-defense laws in Kalifornia are far better than in many other states. There is no duty to retreat and there are even provision where you can use lethal force to protect property, which I imagine is a legacy of the State's farming and ranching tradition.

gunsmith
05-11-2010, 7:15 AM
CA is a bastion of Conservative common sense and a gun owners paradise. ... compared to NYC & NJ.

BluNorthern
05-11-2010, 7:58 AM
California's gun laws suck, I don't see the point of comparing them to the few other states that are in about the same boat and congratulating ourselves on how more or less slightly screwed we are then they are. How about comparing them to the forty or so states who's gun laws are as ours should be, and focus on doing something about it.

big red
05-11-2010, 8:24 AM
I agree that we should be concentrating on changing our own laws and booting the old guard out of the legislature. The problem is that the voters are too lazy to do it. If the public had it drummed into their heads that the police cannot protect them or their families, which is true, you would see a lot of changes in all the laws on self protection and the hoops someone had to go through to get a pistol in this state. The public has been conned and they do not want to face that fact. No one other than the voter and the average citizen who does not vote is responsible for who is making our laws today. I tell people don't bi---about the laws if you did not vote last time and booted the incumbent out. Every two to four years you have the chance to change things so do it. Demand law change, get petitions, and if it is likely they will be voted out like the ones before them your reps will listen to you. Take away the huge retirement/benefit packages after two terms and power mongers will not be fighting for these seats.Waiting until we go to bankruptcy as a state is not going to work and we are on the edge now. Across this country people are booting incumbents on both sides in both parties and we need to do the same. It is done one vote at a time.

Big Jake
05-11-2010, 9:04 AM
I believe it. It sucks to be us.

This post reminds of an Auschwitz inmate wondering whether those in Treblinka had it worse.

I am not sure I would go that far! :rolleyes:

dadoody
05-11-2010, 9:07 AM
Check out the laws in Hawaii. When they got their 10-round mag limit, the old ones weren't grandfathered in. They had to modify their existing mags and make them 10 rounders. Also no real CCW, and lots more.

Hawaii is hands down the worst.

No one seems to fight for it in Hawaii either. Also, the Japanese kinda run things there...seems like it anyways.

Kyle1886
05-11-2010, 9:22 AM
I think I read somewhere that some states also have ammo restrictions. I don't think NJ folks can have "hollow points". (I suppose most states have restrictions on certain types of armor piercing ammo/tracer too).

Kyle

Ed_in_Sac
05-11-2010, 12:14 PM
When I lived in Vegas had to apply for a registration card for each handgun I owned. They took possession of the handgun while it was being "documented." It was pretty easy to go through, but them having a collectible like my Colt Python unnerved me.

It is true that getting a CC permit was easy, but there are other restriction not so nice.

Want one, ok: all the indoor ranges required that shooters use only TMJ bullets. No hollow points, no cast lead. Reason was supposedly a local ordinance on lead levels in public buildings. Several ranges did this so am presuming there must be some law on the books.

SixtyDashOne
05-11-2010, 1:10 PM
Basically just take a look at all the states with the highest crime, and there ya go - there's your states with the toughest gun laws.

GunPhonatic
05-11-2010, 2:03 PM
Thanks Bweise for chiming in! I was just curious on what the other restrictive states' gunlaws were.

dustoff31
05-11-2010, 7:22 PM
CA statutory law is shaped by CA regulatory law. There's no fuzziness allowed in bypassing regulation. Other 'older' East coast states may not have as good a regulatory structure, and things like gun features might be left up in the air for interpretation.

Slightly OT, but you've hit on something I've been meaning to ask you or Gene.

As an instructor, I've encountered differences between what the B&P Code and the CCR's say in regard to firearms training requirements for security guards. Shall I take your post above to mean that the CCR's hold sway?

bwiese
05-11-2010, 9:13 PM
Slightly OT, but you've hit on something I've been meaning to ask you or Gene.

As an instructor, I've encountered differences between what the B&P Code and the CCR's say in regard to firearms training requirements for security guards. Shall I take your post above to mean that the CCR's hold sway?

Hmm, interesting. B&P code is statutory law (like Penal Code). A regulation shapes or clarifies a law, often by creating definitions and parameters and expert control that the legislators delegate out. When there's conflict, we get into interesting territory - esp if the regulation extends the law.

dustoff31
05-11-2010, 9:59 PM
Hmm, interesting. B&P code is statutory law (like Penal Code). A regulation shapes or clarifies a law, often by creating definitions and parameters and expert control that the legislators delegate out. When there's conflict, we get into interesting territory - esp if the regulation extends the law.

I've seen both. B&P requires more than CCRs, and vice versa.

The latest situation:

B&P code says one must "requalify on the range" (pretty close to verbatim).
CCR says one must do "this" in order to requalify.
The official BSIS firearms training manual says one must do "this + that" in order to requalify.

Perhaps more an underground regulation than a conflict in this case?

CHS
05-11-2010, 10:51 PM
Here's the thing....

California has more LAWS.

Certain other states have less laws, but more restrictive ones than CA. Also, see places like NYC. If you live in NYC, you will likely never be able to own a handgun larger than 9mm or even .22. And all other firearms will be registered with disgusting ownership requirements attached to the registration.

SoCalCitizen
05-12-2010, 10:13 AM
Well put BluNorthern and yellowfin.

Someguy925
05-12-2010, 10:28 AM
New York is quite interesting when it comes to gun laws. For example like magazines, residents of NY are not allowed to purchase magazines greater than 10 rounds that are manufactured past a certain year. However, magazines manufactured before that year are fair game and you're free to purchase whatever the heck you want. Which I was surprised when my friend over there was happy when he picked up some DP-28 pans for dirt cheap out there.

I'm a bit surprised how easy it is to get a gun legally in California, the only problem are the laws, such as the restrictions on the kinds of weapons we can get and limits on weapon configuration and styles, etc etc.

Tim McBride
05-12-2010, 4:00 PM
and yet CA is the most hated by outside gun owners... when there are other states worse than us.

Because California by itself is the largest block in the House of Representatives and the largest number of electoral votes. No other state that is as or more restrictive has this sort of political clout.

A further issue is that many who move out of CA move to their new state and retain the CA mindset; and refuse to adjust to the area they have moved to.

b.faust
05-12-2010, 5:09 PM
Strangely enough, in Denver if you have a magazine for an AR (or other flavor AK, FAL, etc) over 20 rounds you have an "Assault Weapon"
But a 20 or less magazine is GTG....

No BB required either.

What I'm unclear on with them is if possession of a 21+ Magazine, or the actual inserting of it in the mag well suddenly turns your AR into a tool of satan.

(And people about it in Denver ***** about this...)

CHS
05-12-2010, 5:43 PM
Strangely enough, in Denver if you have a magazine for an AR (or other flavor AK, FAL, etc) over 20 rounds you have an "Assault Weapon"
But a 20 or less magazine is GTG....

Yup, Colorado is one of the freest states in the nation, but Denver city itself has some insane totally anti-gun laws.

Magpul actually had to get special permits and permission from the city of Denver because that's where they manufacture the 30rd PMAG's.

Bukowski
05-12-2010, 8:26 PM
I prefer CA gun laws for the most part to MA where I grew up. My father had to get an FID card signed-off by the CLEO of our town to buy me a BB gun when I was 8 years old.

I thought it was crazy when I moved here that you could buy a long gun with just a driver's license.

Of course in MA I could legally SHOOT that BB gun on our property, something I am currently unable to do here in CA.

abusalim81
05-12-2010, 8:29 PM
The Brady scorecard doesn't have that much relevance in some ways. It was scored to their own views of importance.

California gun control is different than other offensive states like NY, NJ, MD, and MA (and IL for various matters).

In CA, if you're in a traffic stop, don't look like a dirtbag, and you have a unloaded/locked firearm with you and no other issues, you're generally gonna be on your way in !~10 minutes. This is often not the case in those other states - for example, MD has a 'specific destination' for handguns, and I'd bet rifle transport has aggressive scrutiny as well. While you can have AWs etc in MA there are other onerous rules stricter than CA gun laws.

CA generally has statewide preemption of local gun BS. NY vs NYC doesn't, unsure of other areas....

CA has a pretty useful 'castle doctrine'; these other states don't.

CA passed the "Katrina bill" - guns not seizable in times of emergency.
(Since then, there are Fed protections as well - but these states have not passed their own Katrina bills so issues in those states may end up in court first.)

CA statutory law is shaped by CA regulatory law. There's no fuzziness allowed in bypassing regulation. Other 'older' East coast states may not have as good a regulatory structure, and things like gun features might be left up in the air for interpretation.

CA does not have a "firearms ID card" that, if it expires, makes you in illegal possession of your guns. (The HSC just gates handgun acquisition, and your rights do not expire if it expires.)

Somehow I still feel less restricted in CA than I do in these other states; I have more hope in quick CA gunrights progress than I do in those states - the fights will be longer there, though the improved Fed situation will cause improvements there. Despite all the issues in CA, our polity is a bit more open/libertarian than the East coast.

+1 ;) This is the reason why were not the worst... We just have a restrictive list of what "KIND" of weapons were allowed to have and "WHICH" way they are configured.

CalNRA
05-12-2010, 10:25 PM
CA is in a sort of limbo. Its farming and blue collar roots hasn't completely been eradicated by the progressives and yuppies but it's on its way. The saving grace about California is that LA and SF don't quite run the state like Chicago running Illinois, Boston running Massechussetts, or NYC running New York.

In ten years, who knows.

HotRails
05-12-2010, 10:32 PM
+1 ;) This is the reason why were not the worst... We just have a restrictive list of what "KIND" of weapons were allowed to have and "WHICH" way they are configured.

Having spent some time living in the northeast I can assure it isn't as bad here. Add into this that California's ambigious laid back whatever attitude has worked in our favor. They like the appearance of restrictions but believe me, they are not that determined. In NYC or NJ or MA, they are highly aggressive about enforcement and being anti gun, just like they are aggressive about everything else.

2Bear
05-13-2010, 1:21 AM
NY takes our laws and often gets more restrictive with them. My bro keeps complaining they have to pin their AW stocks, can't have them adjustable despite length or some such nonsense.

Sgt Raven
05-13-2010, 10:15 AM
Gun owners in other states don't hate California, they just don't like to sell firearms to Californians because California DOJ puts additional bureaucratic hurdles and obstacles in the way that they don't have to deal with when shipping to other states....snip........



I don't buy it, go on other sites like ARFCOM and see what the 'ant burner haters' have to say about California. With the popular comment that they hope California falls into the ocean and others. You get people from NY & NJ saying how bad our laws are, when they should look in a mirror. :rolleyes:

Sgt Raven
05-13-2010, 10:17 AM
NY takes our laws and often gets more restrictive with them. My bro keeps complaining they have to pin their AW stocks, can't have them adjustable despite length or some such nonsense.

Not just their stocks, they have to 'pin' their muzzle brakes too.

Pvt. Cowboy
05-13-2010, 12:16 PM
We are the only ones limited to 10 round mags, have to use a bullet button, have to go by a banlist(rifles) and a roster(handguns)...

What about other states? I know that NJ has a mag limit of 15 rounds...

Also, in New Jersey just a 15+ round magazine is illegal by itself.

New Jersey (both legislature and citizenry) is way more hysterical about firearms than California is. Probably the most hysterical of all the New England states. Otherwise, their laws mirror California's even if they're not as up-to-date as California's is. For instance, New Jersey has an AWB that's just like CA's Roberti-Roos, but there's no SB-23 -- firearms model names, not characteristics. The Attorney General of NJ updates the list all the time and includes the rider "The legislation also prohibits any firearms which are substantially identical to any of the above firearms", so that means no 'Off-List' firearms.

They also have goofy laws against 'dum dum' bullets and a strict 'firearms ID card' permit process where you wait around three months for a permit to buy firearms while your local police chief does a background check on you. Fingerprints, perhaps a sit-down interview, and references of two people in good standing are required.

Basically, the gun laws in New Jersey were written by Sally Jessy Raphael and Rosie O'Donnell.