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Midtown Gunner
05-09-2010, 2:12 PM
With all the rain that came this winter the rivers are expected to be running high this spring. Coupled with $1200/oz gold and my current unemployment, a friend and I are looking to do a little prospecting. Would I be able to legally carry on an unpatented mining claim? If so, could I conceal or open carry? And would it make a difference if the claim is on State vs Federal land?

GrizzlyGuy
05-09-2010, 3:01 PM
If it is a patented mining claim, the claim owner has title to the land and owns the mineral rights. Your carry ability would be the same as if it were any private property that you don't own (concealed with permission (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry), etc.).

If it is an unpatented claim, the claim owner only owns the mineral rights. The property is public and your ability to carry would be just like on any public property.

The usual laws/regulations apply as well (12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), etc.)

choprzrul
05-09-2010, 4:23 PM
Now, to play devil's advocate, a mining claim is considered real property in CA. That is why I have to pay property taxes for our claim in Siskiyou county. Would this not qualify as personal property and CCW be allowed as such?

Seesm
05-09-2010, 4:24 PM
Now, to play devil's advocate, a mining claim is considered real property in CA. That is why I have to pay property taxes for our claim in Siskiyou county. Would this not qualify as personal property and CCW be allowed as such?

That makes sense for sure but not all the laws make sense in CA... So just be sure...

IrishPirate
05-09-2010, 4:25 PM
If it is a patented mining claim, the claim owner has title to the land and owns the mineral rights. Your carry ability would be the same as if it were any private property that you don't own (concealed with permission (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry), etc.).

If it is an unpatented claim, the claim owner only owns the mineral rights. The property is public and your ability to carry would be just like on any public property.

The usual laws/regulations apply as well (12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), etc.)

+1

UOC might be your only choice unless you get a CCW.

Fot
05-09-2010, 4:28 PM
Takes some fishing poles and your fishing license and pull a two for one trip..

MP301
05-09-2010, 5:13 PM
AND, wouldnt it also be a campsite so you could LOC anyway?

GrizzlyGuy
05-09-2010, 6:22 PM
Now, to play devil's advocate, a mining claim is considered real property in CA. That is why I have to pay property taxes for our claim in Siskiyou county. Would this not qualify as personal property and CCW be allowed as such?

I don't know, but the general private property exemption for concealed carry is in 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html):

...or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident...

Would the law consider real property that you pay taxes on to be the same as private property? I'm assuming no CCW permit, that is exempted more broadly in 12027 (j).

Midtown Gunner
05-09-2010, 7:07 PM
Now, to play devil's advocate, a mining claim is considered real property in CA. That is why I have to pay property taxes for our claim in Siskiyou county. Would this not qualify as personal property and CCW be allowed as such?

Or, if that open-carry law is passed, would open carry be allowed? Simply put, is it "private" property as far as other rights go?

Decoligny
05-10-2010, 6:55 AM
If the mining claim is in unincorporated territory (outside city limits), and discharge of a firearm is not prohibited, then you can legally LOC.

Hogxtz
05-10-2010, 7:59 AM
Not to poop in your cherios, but be carefull mining too. Dredging is now illegal everywhere in California. I used to lease a claim on the shirt tail and run two dredges.

Midtown Gunner
05-12-2010, 1:36 PM
Nope, just sluicing and panning.

Barabas
05-12-2010, 1:55 PM
Not to poop in your cherios, but be carefull mining too. Dredging is now illegal everywhere in California. I used to lease a claim on the shirt tail and run two dredges.

We've had record rainfalls this year. There's going to be a lot of gold sitting around waiting to get sucked up.

But I've been out of the loop for a couple of years... the ban passed me by. Wow. I have no words.

AJAX22
05-12-2010, 3:09 PM
When did dredging become illegal? And how illegal is it? Slap on rhe wrists, jail time, or fine?

Barabas
05-12-2010, 4:46 PM
I found a little information, it's a moratorium while the DFG does an environmental impact study to determine if silting from dredge operations is part of the Salmon decline problem. The results of the study aren't expected any earlier than spring of '11. Rumor has it that there is no evidence that there is a connection since the Salmon numbers have declined even in watersheds where there has never been recreational dredging.

destro360
05-12-2010, 5:17 PM
i thought i read somewhere that it is like texas as far as property owner goes on the gold claim.. "shoot to kill on site" i thought was it for tresspassing or mining on someone elses claim? im probably wrong but i remember reading about an old law still in effect.

Barabas
05-12-2010, 7:10 PM
Having a valid mining claim does not give you exclusive use rights to the land, only mineral rights. I can fish, hunt, hike and even camp on an active claim as long as I'm not intentionally disrupting the mining activities. You don't even have the right to fence a mining claim unless it's patented, which it won't be since they haven't issued patents for the last billion and a half* years. You can't prospect or do any kind of mineral collecting without permission of the claimant, that's the only real restriction against a civil person.

*not really, I just can't remember the year they unfunded the department that did mining patents.

Interloper
05-12-2010, 7:31 PM
Having a valid mining claim does not give you exclusive use rights to the land, only mineral rights. I can fish, hunt, hike and even camp on an active claim as long as I'm not intentionally disrupting the mining activities. You don't even have the right to fence a mining claim unless it's patented, which it won't be since they haven't issued patents for the last billion and a half* years. You can't prospect or do any kind of mineral collecting without permission of the claimant, that's the only real restriction against a civil person.

*not really, I just can't remember the year they unfunded the department that did mining patents.

Exactly.
Mining claims these days are on public property. The claim holder owns the rights to the minerals, nothing else. You can legally hunt, camp, fish, whatever on someone elses claim. Just don't have any mining related tools with you! Most unclaimed land that will yield gold will be in State Parks. Panning (but not high-banking) is legal in these places, firearms are not. Concealed carry laws apply on your mining claim the same as they would anywhere.

Midtown Gunner
05-13-2010, 12:52 PM
But the OC bill couldn't apply to carrying on Federal land in unincorporated land--it would be overstepping its authority.

choprzrul
05-15-2010, 5:22 AM
Having a valid mining claim does not give you exclusive use rights to the land, only mineral rights. I can fish, hunt, hike and even camp on an active claim as long as I'm not intentionally disrupting the mining activities. You don't even have the right to fence a mining claim unless it's patented, which it won't be since they haven't issued patents for the last billion and a half* years. You can't prospect or do any kind of mineral collecting without permission of the claimant, that's the only real restriction against a civil person.

*not really, I just can't remember the year they unfunded the department that did mining patents.

I am curious where the fine line is drawn between my rights as a mining claim owner and the rights of a person to use land in the public domain? Since I own the minerals on that patch of land, you can not disturb my minerals without permission. Simply kicking a rock (my mineral) would probably be ok in the courts. Using a hammer to drive a tent stake into my minerals? Now that is starting to look a bit like a mining activity. Shooting on my claim and splitting open my minerals? Remember, there is no way to enter my mining claim without standing on the minerals that I legally own. There is also no way that you are not going to disturb my minerals. So where is the fine line between my rights to not have my minerals disturbed and your rights to public use?

GrizzlyGuy
05-15-2010, 10:36 AM
But the OC bill couldn't apply to carrying on Federal land in unincorporated land--it would be overstepping its authority.

Unfortunately, it does (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4130631#post4130631). I'm going to take my best shot at getting it amended so that it doesn't (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4281598#post4281598), but I'm just a nobody concerned citizen so don't hold out too much hope that I'll succeed. :(

Barabas
05-15-2010, 4:05 PM
So where is the fine line between my rights to not have my minerals disturbed and your rights to public use?

If I am standing on a spot you aren't actively mining, there's nothing you can do about it unless I am disturbing the peace in your campsite or otherwise "improved" land on your claim. You are "improving" your claim every year, right?

Claims have been legally jumped due to a lack of maintenance and improvement by the original claim holder. A claim does not confer the same legal weight that title or a patent does. You only own the right to extract minerals of commercial value, in accordance with your claim application and filed plan.

I'm generalizing here, it's been quite a few years since I've actually been involved in maintaining a claim. There are better forums for mining rights advice, IANAL, etc.

nitrofc
05-15-2010, 8:18 PM
When did dredging become illegal? And how illegal is it? Slap on rhe wrists, jail time, or fine?

In a nut shell...I'll try and make it short...

It started with CA environmentalist Senator Pat Wiggins (D) siding with an Indian tribe (Karuk) that occupies parts of the Klamath River Basin in Northern Cali. and a fight that started some years back between Dave McCracken and his 49'er memebrship club and the tribe. The tribe claims that the Salmon they catch and kill using Gil Nets that stretch across parts of the river have been falling off in numbers over the years and they claim that the miners that use a suction dredge are adding to their low count problem.

So she recently introduced...SB670.

Arnie (The Steroid Man) Schwarz......had a chance to shoot it down but instead sat on his hands and the bill passed. Nobody heard about it...because......the people involved did the whole deal under the table, behind closed doors. I knew about it because I have skin in the game.

So Dave Mc.....decided to sue the D.F.G. to stop the bill in court because it's a proven fact that suction dredging has no affect on salmon or any fish for that matter and D.F.G agrees, but a Judge up in the area took it upon himself to close all water ways in the State of California for suction dredging until further research by the D.F.G. can be completed.
It's expected to be completed by 2011....no biggy.

I'm affected because my Mining Claims are located on the Yuba River area near Downieville, CA......the problem I have with the whole screwed up deal is Salmon would have to have wings and have to be able to fly hundreds of miles across the State to my Area in the Mother lode District.

Thousands of Dredgers like myself that are Claim owners are affected by SB670 and....the biggest problem right now is...small towns all over the Sierra's are getting slammed that are dependent on mining Dollars spent for food, gas and supplies for survival during Dredge Season
and they are really getting hurt right now.

The D.F.G. has concluded that Suction Dredging during "Their" Dredge season has no affect on any fish in the State. They also issue the Permit's for Suction Dredging.
Yes... the Department of Fish and Game issues these permit's.

If you get caught with a Dredge on your claim in this State...you might get a warning...you might lose your equipment..it's a crap shoot.

Dredging will be back.
If not soon...then there are rumor's they have the entire mining industry behind those affected and there are $Millions ready to take the fight against California over this crap, not in their court.....but the Supreme Court.

I hope the fight goes to the S.C...........I want to see some pain.

choprzrul
05-16-2010, 6:27 AM
If I am standing on a spot you aren't actively mining, there's nothing you can do about it unless I am disturbing the peace in your campsite or otherwise "improved" land on your claim. You are "improving" your claim every year, right?

Claims have been legally jumped due to a lack of maintenance and improvement by the original claim holder. A claim does not confer the same legal weight that title or a patent does. You only own the right to extract minerals of commercial value, in accordance with your claim application and filed plan.

I'm generalizing here, it's been quite a few years since I've actually been involved in maintaining a claim. There are better forums for mining rights advice, IANAL, etc.

Ummm.....you do realize that I don't have to do any improvements to any of my claims, don't you? All I have to do is pay the waiver fee and the whole "improving" thing flies out the window.

You are also contending that as a claim owner I only have the right to remove minerals. Can you show me where it says that a claim doesn't confer mineral ownership to me as real property?

nitrofc
05-16-2010, 9:47 AM
Ummm.....you do realize that I don't have to do any improvements to any of my claims, don't you? All I have to do is pay the waiver fee and the whole "improving" thing flies out the window.

You are also contending that as a claim owner I only have the right to remove minerals. Can you show me where it says that a claim doesn't confer mineral ownership to me as real property?

Exactly right.....That's what I do, pay the Maintenance fee ($140.00 per claim) and then pay whatever the "assessed value" is to the Tax Collectors' Office for the property tax.

Oh....and by the way, A valid un-patented placer mining gold claim is both real estate and private property, with Constitutionally protected title and rights conveyed by recorded deed. Ownership does not carry the full bundle of rights generally associated with most other real estate. However, it carries a good part of that private property "bundle of rights".