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ap3572001
05-08-2010, 3:36 PM
Does standing Your ground and not allowing someone to treat You in a way that You do not want to be treated = STARTING a fight?

curtisfong
05-08-2010, 3:37 PM
Depends on how good your lawyer is.

BKinzey
05-08-2010, 3:39 PM
Depends.

You are going to need to add a little more info to your scenario.

ap3572001
05-08-2010, 3:51 PM
Depends.

You are going to need to add a little more info to your scenario.

Ok. Two guys and a girl go to movies Downtown. Park their car behind two bikes ( NICE BIKES) . At least 6-7 feet. A couple of guys with two women are standing by the bikes. One of them says to the people in the car that they are REALLY lucky that they did not touch the bikes and how sorry they would be if they did.

The two guys in the car , got out and said that they did feel lucky at all and don't need driving lessons......

It was on ..... they guys with the bikes lost, in a big way. They told the officers that the KIDS IN THE CAR started the fight.........TRUE STORY.

berto
05-08-2010, 3:57 PM
Pissing contests result in wet legs and are best avoided by walking away.

OleCuss
05-08-2010, 4:00 PM
Stupidity all around. No need to smart off at the bikers - simply saying that they're nice bikes and they wouldn't want to mess with them would have been enough.

Bikers didn't need to get uppity either.

Generally as I understand it, the one who throws the first punch is the one who started the fight. The words aren't the issue unless they contribute to a credible and immediate threat. (Sorry, I'm no lawyer so I could be off base here).

When you pick up your gun you must put down your pride. Wise to do it much of the rest of the time as well. OK, I don't mean you can't be proud - I mean that you have enough pride and self-confidence that you don't worry overly much about what others say to you so you don't spend your time trying to defend against mere words.

Most of the time fighting is just stupid.

JDoe
05-08-2010, 5:04 PM
Pissing contests result in wet legs and are best avoided by walking away.

This ^ and

Stupidity all around.

this ^

corrupt
05-10-2010, 12:48 PM
Stupid. There are more appropriate things to fight about. Parking and posturing is not one of them. How you tell the story doesn't come across as self-defense at all, it just sounds like a bunch of chest pounding.

My advice is don't say a thing to the Police, and get an attorney.

Casual_Shooter
05-10-2010, 12:54 PM
Ok. Two guys and a girl go to movies Downtown. Park their car behind two bikes ( NICE BIKES) . At least 6-7 feet. A couple of guys with two women are standing by the bikes. One of them says to the people in the car that they are REALLY lucky that they did not touch the bikes and how sorry they would be if they did.

The two guys in the car , got out and said that they did feel lucky at all and don't need driving lessons......

It was on ..... they guys with the bikes lost, in a big way. They told the officers that the KIDS IN THE CAR started the fight.........TRUE STORY.

I hope the film crew from Jersey Shore was close by. Sounds like something right down their alley.

develown
05-10-2010, 1:10 PM
four simple words

"I plead the fifth"

While fighting over a parking spot does sound tempting, I imagine you can find better things to fight about.

BKinzey
05-10-2010, 1:24 PM
Plenty of blame for both sides. Should have walked away.

Falstaff
05-10-2010, 1:34 PM
Confucius say: "buying harley does not make yuppies tough"

Kyle1886
05-10-2010, 1:41 PM
=Most of the time fighting is just stupid.


...and it hurts too!

Jpach
05-10-2010, 1:46 PM
Say if your happen to have bright lights in a raised truck that happens to shine right into someones car that would be in front of you, you have no choice but to go slow behind them because they are going 15 MPH below the speed limit.

They follow you to your destination for "being on their ***" to fight you, they get out of their car (with 5 other guys and you have only 1 friend) and get in your face and actually touch you......then they leave and come running/charging at you in a threatening manner after their friends were holding him back. You then destroy him.

Is it justified to throw the first punch in this situation?

The guy was behaving in a very threatening manner and actually batters the person with the truck as he tells his friends to get the agressive guy to get him out of his face. Battery alone, especially with all of his backup with him, seems like it could be justifiable to throw the first punch.

Say if it isnt, is the person charging at you in such a way that it is very apparent that he wants to commit great bodily injury to you and/or your buddy enough to bust him?

If not, then wow. I definitely wont be the first to take a punch in a fight. It may not always be legal but if you are definitely in a hot situation, especially when outnumbered, Im throwing the first punch. Who knows what they would do to you if you get sucker punched and KOd. Im not down to get stabbed, ribs broken, or raped.

SVT-40
05-10-2010, 2:54 PM
Mutual combat and no one goes to jail. Or 415.1 PC and one or both fools go to jail.

Words are just words. Whats the point in "standing your ground" when common sense tells you a fight will ensue.

Walk away.


Calif Penal Code
415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment
in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of
not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment
and fine:
(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or
challenges another person in a public place to fight.

Window_Seat
05-10-2010, 3:29 PM
Taser C2 (http://www.itaser.com/product_tour.html)

OLight SR-90 Intimidator (http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-sr90-intimidator.html)

Erik.

develown
05-10-2010, 3:41 PM
Say if your happen to have bright lights in a raised truck that happens to shine right into someones car that would be in front of you, you have no choice but to go slow behind them because they are going 15 MPH below the speed limit.

They follow you to your destination for "being on their ***" to fight you, they get out of their car (with 5 other guys and you have only 1 friend) and get in your face and actually touch you......then they leave and come running/charging at you in a threatening manner after their friends were holding him back. You then destroy him.

Is it justified to throw the first punch in this situation?

The guy was behaving in a very threatening manner and actually batters the person with the truck as he tells his friends to get the agressive guy to get him out of his face. Battery alone, especially with all of his backup with him, seems like it could be justifiable to throw the first punch.

Say if it isnt, is the person charging at you in such a way that it is very apparent that he wants to commit great bodily injury to you and/or your buddy enough to bust him?

If not, then wow. I definitely wont be the first to take a punch in a fight. It may not always be legal but if you are definitely in a hot situation, especially when outnumbered, Im throwing the first punch. Who knows what they would do to you if you get sucker punched and KOd. Im not down to get stabbed, ribs broken, or raped.

That's why people have "equalizers"

IE you have to fight two guys, get a base ball bat.

you fight two guys with knifes, get a sword,

Gun-Tank, Air craft carrier-Nuke

Equalizers equalize the fight :D

ZombieTactics
05-10-2010, 3:44 PM
Does standing Your ground and not allowing someone to treat You in a way that You do not want to be treated = STARTING a fight?

"Treat you in a way you do not want to be treated" ...? Seriously? Sounds like the logic of an arrested adolescent to me.

It's not about how you "want to be treated" or "being disrespected" or any retarded, brain-dead crap like that. It's not about your pride or if some idiot gives you "a hard look".

It's about whether or not you are in a situation where you are at risk of immediate bodily harm, serious injury, etc. ... PERIOD.

stormy_clothing
05-10-2010, 4:04 PM
oh snap "why you disrespectin me esa!!!!" kick them in the nuts for acting like ***otrons and be done with it.

Jpach
05-10-2010, 5:03 PM
That's why people have "equalizers"

IE you have to fight two guys, get a base ball bat.

you fight two guys with knifes, get a sword,

Gun-Tank, Air craft carrier-Nuke

Equalizers equalize the fight :D

I had none of those that night. Sometimes **** happens I guess. Guys talk crap and get in your face to act all tough and they think you wont do anyting about it. Most of the time, people do nothing. I did nothing besides telling his buddies to get him out of my face (and they did) and made sure the security guard who came up was on my side (and he was). Then he charged.

What else is one supposed to do in that situation? Call the cops while you get jumped? (not saying thats what you are saying)

corrupt
05-10-2010, 5:40 PM
I had none of those that night. Sometimes **** happens I guess. Guys talk crap and get in your face to act all tough and they think you wont do anyting about it. Most of the time, people do nothing. I did nothing besides telling his buddies to get him out of my face (and they did) and made sure the security guard who came up was on my side (and he was). Then he charged.

What else is one supposed to do in that situation? Call the cops while you get jumped? (not saying thats what you are saying)

It's called "de-escalation", and if you were ever to start CCWing a gun, it's something you should learn. You're not going to pull a gun because someone wants to get in to fisticuffs, and you don't want to be rolling around with someone on the ground while you have a gun. De-escalate. Even if you're not packing, fighting over stupid stuff like that is stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.

True, most people don't really want to fight, they just want to look tough, but it's all a waste of time. The people who are posturing aggressively like in your situation are usually the ones from well to do areas who live without the threat of real violence. If I can ignore something like that, I will. I usually try to reply to such challenges with humor, something along the lines of, "haha, you must really lovvvvvvvve those bikes to want to fight a stranger for parking next to you". Since I like motorcycles, I probably would have went on with something like, "especially since I know Mexican Judo... Judon't know if I have a knife, Judon't know if I have a gun...", and then started talking about motorcycles. If I was in a rush, I probably just would have replied with, "OK dude", and forgotten about it.

Having a little empathy or sympathy for stupid people generally makes life easier.

develown
05-10-2010, 8:33 PM
I had none of those that night. Sometimes **** happens I guess. Guys talk crap and get in your face to act all tough and they think you wont do anyting about it. Most of the time, people do nothing. I did nothing besides telling his buddies to get him out of my face (and they did) and made sure the security guard who came up was on my side (and he was). Then he charged.

What else is one supposed to do in that situation? Call the cops while you get jumped? (not saying thats what you are saying)

Well the way i see it, if your outnumbered then throwing the first punch is an equalizer in it self. Personally i fight to win, so i always fight real dirty. I have no qualms about eye poking or kicking some one in the nuts. All equalizers in them self, but to each his own.

However, regardless of my opinion on equalizers, you'll probably end up in jail for throwing down or get some sorta fine. So, rule #1 don't get caught.

Also, another trick is to simply take your pants off. The truth of the matter is, no one wants to fight a naked man.

Glock-matic
05-10-2010, 9:35 PM
Your best bet, as previously stated is to de-escalate. If you punch someone, they hit the ground, crack their skull, and die one of two ways to go:

1) you tried to de-escalate and walk away. The "victim" tries to jump you, you hit him, he dies. Police investigate, witnesses corroborate, you get a DP for justifiable self defense.

2) you engage in an argument, witnesses say you failed to back down and escalated the situation. He throws the first punch, you throw the punch that ends his life. Now you are a Mutual Combatant, further you will likely be charged with negligent homicide and spend 5-10 guarding your corn hole.

Also remember Assault is a prohibited offense for owning firearms. Ask yourself what is important, getting one over on a douche, or live free and enjoy your guns.

E Pluribus Unum
05-10-2010, 9:55 PM
I have a personal code of behavior not to throw the first punch. I have always felt that way. If everyone abides by this, no one would ever fight.

I have encouraged people to fight, but never started it (physically).

In my view, whoever starts getting physical gets what he deserves; I cannot very easily walk away once that physical boundary was crossed.

cmaynes
05-10-2010, 10:05 PM
to quote the ages....
If it aint worth dyin' for, it aint worth fightin' for.

If you get in a fight as an adult you are an idiot.... sorry, but I said it.

note- this doesnt apply to true self-defense....

Jpach
05-10-2010, 11:59 PM
I have a personal code of behavior not to throw the first punch. I have always felt that way. If everyone abides by this, no one would ever fight.

I have encouraged people to fight, but never started it (physically).

In my view, whoever starts getting physical gets what he deserves; I cannot very easily walk away once that physical boundary was crossed.

I understand what you are saying. Im not saying to just throw first if the guy is being a douche, but when in immediate danger. You said whoever starts getting physical gets what he deserves.

Doesnt charging someone with intent to harm in some way or fashion count as getting physical? To me it does. In a sense, that WAS the first punch. Had he and his "bros" made first contact, I could have had my first and last cornholing experience.

It sucks because if the police showed up when I was there, I could have lost my firearms rights even though the security guard was on my side. I doubt they would give a crap about me and just "let the court sort me out". Its sad when we cant even seem to protect ourselves without weapons.

Perhaps some day we can get an "I Will Defend Myself" permit, kinda like a CCW. (dare to dream :()

Jpach
05-11-2010, 12:03 AM
to quote the ages....
If it aint worth dyin' for, it aint worth fightin' for.

If you get in a fight as an adult you are an idiot.... sorry, but I said it.

note- this doesnt apply to true self-defense....

I agree somewhat. I wouldnt go as far as calling every last one an idiot, but most fights are over silly things.

Nowadays, its hard to tell what self defense really is. In absolute reality, the law doesnt decide what constitutes self defense. Sure, a legal definition can mean something to our society but just as our AW ban is for the children and all that other bs, doesnt make it anywhere near "right".

We just need to think and play smart and deescalate as much as possible. Sometimes though, S Hs TF and you gata get down, or die as a result.

SgtDinosaur
05-11-2010, 8:48 AM
I haven't been in a fist fight since 1980. I'd like to keep it that way, too. One of my favorite books calls stuff like that a "monkey dance", and that's how I think of it. Just a waste of time and energy, and undignified at that. I've gotten pretty good at calming people down and letting them save face, although I admit sometimes I piss them off at first until my common sense kicks in. Real self defense is different.

macadamizer
05-11-2010, 3:52 PM
I had none of those that night. Sometimes **** happens I guess. Guys talk crap and get in your face to act all tough and they think you wont do anyting about it. Most of the time, people do nothing. I did nothing besides telling his buddies to get him out of my face (and they did) and made sure the security guard who came up was on my side (and he was). Then he charged.

What else is one supposed to do in that situation? Call the cops while you get jumped? (not saying thats what you are saying)

That's not nothing -- that's something. If you truly wanted to de-escalate the situation, as others have correctly advised, you would have simply walked away.

longarmshortlegs
05-11-2010, 4:09 PM
I think that it depends more on the "force" rather than "standing your ground".

It's going to come down to that "reasonable person". If your actions make captain obvious say that anyone would have guessed that it would result in violence, then no.