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CaptHobbes
05-08-2010, 10:14 AM
So I've been rereading How to Own a Gun and Stay out of Jail, and p. 64 got me thinking about this. Suppose a person locks a handgun in a container, but then for convenience puts the container in a backpack with the rest of his range stuff and carries the backpack to his car to go to a range. Is this: a) OK because the gun is still locked in a container; b) not OK because the gun is carried on a person? (a) sounds reasonable to me but I'm no lawyer.

GrizzlyGuy
05-08-2010, 10:32 AM
This:

a) OK because the gun is still locked in a container

Once in a locked container, it doesn't matter where you place that container in your vehicle. The 12025 exemption that this is based on is 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html). Note that many people recommend that you do not place that locked container in the glove box or utility compartment. It is still legal to do so, but a LEO might get confused and think it isn't legal (leading to unwanted drama).

More info in the wiki: Transporting (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting)

SigSoldier
05-08-2010, 10:33 AM
If the gun is unloaded and locked in a container you should have no problems. Besides why would the police be searching your backpack and they would need a warrant to unlock and search the container unless you give them consent.

littlejake
05-08-2010, 11:07 AM
Let's extend this scenario. Suppose the same locked container and backpack. Now, add to it, the person wants to ride the Metro light rail in the greater Los Angeles area.

Can he do it?

GrizzlyGuy
05-08-2010, 11:19 AM
Let's extend this scenario. Suppose the same locked container and backpack. Now, add to it, the person wants to ride the Metro light rail in the greater Los Angeles area.

Can he do it?

From the standpoint of 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html) (concealed handgun) that would be legal for a citizen or legal resident to do as the 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) exemption still applies: the light rail is a "motor vehicle". Walking directly to or from the light rail is also covered.

However, there may be an LA ordinance or other law that makes carrying a gun on the light rail illegal.

CSACANNONEER
05-08-2010, 11:20 AM
When I fly out of an airport, I put a gun in a locked container and then into my luggage. It is perfectly legal for me to walk around the airport with it until I check it in as long as I declare it to and TSA examines it.

hoffmang
05-09-2010, 7:51 PM
Just wanted to add the assumption here. The handgun in the locked container needs to be unloaded. Otherwise, carry on.

-Gene

hasserl
05-10-2010, 10:32 AM
Does putting a lock on the zippers of the backpack make it a locked container? In other words, is a separate locked contained inside the backback required, or does locking the backpack suffice?

joeyriv
05-10-2010, 10:48 AM
Since "locked container" isnt specifically defined, the backpack then becomes a locked container when you put a lock on it. Be sure that it is fully enclosed.

nrvnqsrxk
05-10-2010, 10:53 AM
What about this? Note the bolded part. Or does this not apply to California?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/concealed-weapons/

Concealed Weapons Law & Legal Definition

Concealed weapons are weapons, especially handguns, which are kept hidden on one's person, or under one's control. Carrying a concealed weapon is illegal in most states unless the party with the weapon is a law enforcement officer or has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Some states allow citizens to carry a concealed weapon, while allowing places open to the public to post a notice banning concealed weapons on the premises. Requirements for permits to carry a concealed weapon vary by state, but they usually require a minimum age, completion of a safety course, and prohibit felons or those found mentally unstable or guilty of certain crimes to obtain a permit, among other requirements.

A number of states allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons after obtaining the proper permits. These are often referred to as "concealed carry" laws. For example, one state allows a concealed carry permit to be issued to anyone who is at least 21 years old, has lived in the state at least 45 days, the county or adjacent county for 30 days, completes a 12-hour firearms training course, and passes criminal and mental-health background checks. As of this writing, only six U.S. states do not have a concealed carry law. Laws vary by state, so local laws should be consulted for requirements in your area.

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 was signed into law on July 22, 2004 by President Bush. Off-duty and retired police officers are allowed to carry concealed weapons anywhere in the U.S. under this legislation, which preempts state and local control over concealed-carry permits.

The following is a state law defining a concealed weapon:

62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed. A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible. A firearm or dangerous weapon is considered concealed if it is not secured, and is worn under clothing or carried in a bundle that is held or carried by the individual, or transported in a vehicle under the individual's control or direction and available to the individual, including beneath the seat or in a glove compartment. A firearm or dangerous weapon is not considered concealed if it is:

Carried in a belt holster which is wholly or substantially visible or carried in a case designed for carrying a firearm or dangerous weapon and which is wholly or substantially visible;
Locked in a closed trunk or luggage compartment of a motor vehicle;
Carried in the field while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping, or target shooting, whether visible or not; or
Carried by any person permitted by law to possess a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to that person's home or place of business, or to a place of repair, or back from those locations.
A bow and arrow, an unloaded rifle or shotgun, or an unloaded weapon that will expel, or is readily capable of expelling, a projectile by the action of a spring, compressed air, or compressed gas including any such weapon commonly referred to as a BB gun, air rifle, or CO 2 gun, while carried in a motor vehicle.

GrizzlyGuy
05-10-2010, 10:58 AM
What about this? Note the bolded part. Or does this not apply to California?

It applies in CA, and is clarifying that the firearm is indeed concealed when in a backpack. Because it is concealed, you need an exemption to 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html) if you wish to carry it that way. Many possible exemptions exist (12025.5 through 12027), including having a lock on the container while you (a citizen or lawful resident) are transporting it via motor vehicle.

ETA: I think I misread what had been quoted, and it doesn't apply here in CA. What I said beginning with "Because it is concealed..." is correct. It is correct whether or not the case is designed to contain a firearm.

Glock22Fan
05-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Since "locked container" isnt specifically defined, the backpack then becomes a locked container when you put a lock on it. Be sure that it is fully enclosed.

I agree, but there is also a suggestion (as far as I know not yet supported or denied by caselaw of any kind) that it is advisable that you cannot manipulate the firearm through the material that comprises the backpack. In other words, if the backpack is made of, say, thin nylon, and it is possible to rack the slide or operate the trigger through the nylon, some cops might get a bit ante.

You also might have a problem if you carry other objects in the backpack, as you cannot get these out without unlocking the backpack. If you are in a public place, you would then be illegally carrying a concealed firearm. (Say, getting a book out when you are on the metro.)

nrvnqsrxk
05-10-2010, 11:33 AM
It applies in CA, and is clarifying that the firearm is indeed concealed when in a backpack. Because it is concealed, you need an exemption to 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html) if you wish to carry it that way. Many possible exemptions exist (12025.5 through 12027), including having a lock on the container while you (a citizen or lawful resident) are transporting it via motor vehicle.

ETA: I think I misread what had been quoted, and it doesn't apply here in CA. What I said beginning with "Because it is concealed..." is correct. It is correct whether or not the case is designed to contain a firearm.

My initial query was whether we could carry like this in our backpacks in areas that aren't federal buildings, schools, or other firearms restricted cases. But because the concealed definition designates this mode of carry as "concealed", we would need a CCW if we really wanted to carry this around. Going to the range, it would be lawful if we carried it openly, out of the backpack, but breaking the law if put in the backpack. Or am I wrong on that point as well?

So...this is what I'm getting from reading the exceptions to 12025-12027:

12025.5 = We can violate CC when there is a reasonable reason for us to fear our lives (subsection b), or against someone we have a restraining order against because they pose a threat to our safety (subsection a)

12026 = You good if carrying in your house, in a place of business, or on property that you own.

12026.1 = We good with the law if you carry within a locked container (locked trunk or case), not in your glove compartment.

12026.2 = Alright, here we go. (a)(1) Shooting a REAL movie (a)(3) going to a training class, safety class, or event that uses the firearm [range?] (a)(4) transportation directly to places mentioned in 12026 [home, business, your property] (a)(5) going somewhere to fix your gat (a)(6) going home from FFL (a)(9) going to the range, and lots more, but aren't really relevant to us.

12026.2 (b) states that it has to be in a locked container to satisfy the exemptions in (a).

12027 is basically a list of class exemptions that don't apply to 12025.

Am I on the right track here? So carrying in the backpack in a locked container is OK as long as you're going to the range? or any of those exemptions?

Librarian
05-10-2010, 11:53 AM
My initial query was whether we could carry like this in our backpacks in areas that aren't federal buildings, schools, or other firearms restricted cases. But because the concealed definition designates this mode of carry as "concealed", we would need a CCW if we really wanted to carry this around. Going to the range, it would be lawful if we carried it openly, out of the backpack, but breaking the law if put in the backpack. Or am I wrong on that point as well?

So...this is what I'm getting from reading the exceptions to 12025-12027:

12025.5 = We can violate CC when there is a reasonable reason for us to fear our lives (subsection b), or against someone we have a restraining order against because they pose a threat to our safety (subsection a)

12026 = You good if carrying in your house, in a place of business, or on property that you own.

12026.1 = We good with the law if you carry within a locked container (locked trunk or case), not in your glove compartment.

12026.2 = Alright, here we go. (a)(1) Shooting a REAL movie (a)(3) going to a training class, safety class, or event that uses the firearm [range?] (a)(4) transportation directly to places mentioned in 12026 [home, business, your property] (a)(5) going somewhere to fix your gat (a)(6) going home from FFL (a)(9) going to the range, and lots more, but aren't really relevant to us.

12026.2 (b) states that it has to be in a locked container to satisfy the exemptions in (a).

12027 is basically a list of class exemptions that don't apply to 12025.

Am I on the right track here? So carrying in the backpack in a locked container is OK as long as you're going to the range? or any of those exemptions?

That's pretty much it; the 12026.1 exemption is for motor vehicles, and there are no destination restrictions. 12026.2 is for NOT motor vehicles, and there ARE destinations specified that are acknowledged to be OK, as well as (c)This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.

tacticalcity
05-13-2010, 12:07 PM
Talk about complete and utter confusion.

After reading all of this, I have no clue whether or not it is or is not legal to carry a handgun unloaded, in a locked container, inside a backpack.

I think the problem is people are pretty much half assing it when citing their source. I do not say that to be disrespectful. I appriciate the effort. But citing the code number, and your one sentece summery of what that code means is not really helpful. It is too subjective.

When they wanted to prove OLLs, and Bullet Buttons, and Featureless Builds were legal they cited the full code, then broke it down step by step with clear cut explinations of why the code made them legal. It was extremely easy to follow their logic and as a result we now have thousands of OLLs in California. If they had half assed it like we're doing here, that would never have happened.

Doing it the way we are doing it above, has one person citing the code number and saying that code says it is legal, then another person citing the same code and saying it is illegal, and neither showing us step-by-step how they came to that conclusion.

It is alot like math homework in high school. You have to show your work and how you got your answer, just entering the correct answer does not earn you any points. No step-by-step proof, no credit.

Glock22Fan
05-13-2010, 12:17 PM
All the back and forth has me a little confused. Probably because people are just listing the code numbers and not a step-by-step explination of the code like they did when explaining why OLLs are legal.

If the handgun is unloaded, and locked inside a container, and then inside a packpack is that legal?

Yes, in general, but see below.

Does the locked container it is in need to be visible, thus outside of backpack in order to be legal?

No.

Does where I am going matter.

That's a slightly grey area. Under one of the statutes, you would have to be going to an approved place (range, gunsmith etc.)

However, there is the exception for citizens in vehicles (but not on foot) to go anywhere.

There is a lengthy discussion elsewhere (I'll try and find the thread) where Gene Hoffman et al discuss LUCC (Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry) where I believe they conclude that it is legal to carry this way almost anywhere (excepot government buildings etc.). I believe that they further stated that provided the carrier had no "color" (i.e. wasn't doing anything else naughty) the CGF would support them if there was any trouble.


No half answers please. Part of the confusion is people are answering part of the above questions but not all of it. My head is swimming with all the contradictory answers from people who all seem to be right.

I think this answers your questions as well as they can be answered. As usual, Cal law is a mishmash of contradictory, confusing and self-contradicting statements.

Later:

Here's a post by Gene from last December. There are a lot more statements here and there, I leave it to you to find them.

Originally Posted by hoffmang http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3560901#post3560901)

Originally Posted by cmth http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3560581#post3560581)
LUCC is a potential legal minefield. It may not be legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked container anywhere you wish. This is largely untested in the courts.

*sigh* LUCC is good enough for most gun lawyers in California who can't get CCWs to use. A unloaded handgun in a locked container isn't going to get you in trouble, especially since it is by definition concealed. Think about the fact that actually CCWing a loaded handgun registered to you is a minor misdemeanor. The reason it's not court tested is because it is simply legal and therefor people don't tend to be charged with anything.

I'm pretty confident that CGF will defend any attempted LUCC prosecution where the rest of the facts are ok (read, no drug dealers, lacerny attempts, vandalism, etc.) In point of fact, we already have defended an LUCC case as I think about it. The charge was concealed carry but the handguns were unloaded in locked containers that were broken open by law enforcement. Loved those facts. All charges dropped was the answer on that case.

-Gene

tacticalcity
05-13-2010, 12:22 PM
I certainly like those answers. I am just weary to accept them without reading the entire code was my point. Its not that I cannot read it myself. I just wish people were as dilegent about this as they were proving OLLs were legal in California. Those guys did their homework, and put in a lot of effort proving their point. For which I am eternally grateful. If a step-by-step breakdown of the code were provided, people could point back to it everytime the question came up, and there would be no room for doubt, and little to no room for confusion. I guess I just miss the good ol' days.

Maybe this means I need to get off my rear and be the guy who looks it all up and breaks it down step-by-step. I just don't trust my own interpretation of legal code as much as say Bill Wise or someone who does this all the time. I tend to see what I want to see, whether it is there or not.

Glock22Fan
05-13-2010, 1:34 PM
I certainly like those answers. I am just weary to accept them without reading the entire code was my point. Its not that I cannot read it myself. I just wish people were as dilegent about this as they were proving OLLs were legal in California. Those guys did their homework, and put in a lot of effort proving their point. For which I am eternally grateful. If a step-by-step breakdown of the code were provided, people could point back to it everytime the question came up, and there would be no room for doubt, and little to no room for confusion. I guess I just miss the good ol' days.

Maybe this means I need to get off my rear and be the guy who looks it all up and breaks it down step-by-step. I just don't trust my own interpretation of legal code as much as say Bill Wise or someone who does this all the time. I tend to see what I want to see, whether it is there or not.

Some of us are, but when the codes are confusing, even for lawyers and D.A.'s, all that can happen is that we can make out best guess, and eliminate anything which case law says is to be avoided. That leaves a nebulous area, still to be decided by the court.

However, LUCC (outside restricted areas) would seem to be a very low risk activity.

Even here in California, some perfectly legal actions can get you into trouble, ususally temporary but still annoying. This is probably in the same area. We will not know for sure unless and until there is more case law.

But, you know, Gene is correct. The risk is low, especially if you regard concealed as meaning that nobody knows what you are doing, and even if you get stopped, the penalties are also low (As long as the handgun is registered to you, it is two minor misdemeanors if the firearm is loaded or one if it isn't. These become felonies if the handgun isn't registered to you, so be picky with what you carry).

I don't condone it, but I do know of people who have carried concealed, loaded and unlocked for years without problems. Furthermore, I have been told by several deputies that they turn a blind eye if the carrier is apparently an "upright citizen" (this may depend on where you live or are stopped).

So, is it a risk? yes. Is it likely to be a problem? Not very.

Your decision, that's the most accurate advice you are likely to get, even if you pay a lawyer big bucks to get it.

duldej
05-13-2010, 8:20 PM
for what it's worth, i think it's subsection (d) that makes legal some weapons that are hung on or below your waist but i had some bad luck once explaining that my knife was in a briefcase (and a sheath) that i carried below my waist.
my argument was untenable so i abandoned it because i was better-off carrying an open knife than a concealed one.

mofo74
05-13-2010, 8:22 PM
All day, everyday. :D