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View Full Version : How/where to weld mags to body?


gh429
03-08-2006, 2:13 AM
Since I feel the path of least resistance for the DOJ is just to change the definition of a non-detachable magazine so that it must be physically part of the frame of the rifle, I was wondering if anyone can advise as to any experienced gunsmiths that can permanently secure the mag?

I know it's probably a bit premature, but I feel pretty strongly we're headed in this direction. IMO, if you think about it logically it meets the all the requirements of the DOJ and the spirit of SB23...

Thoughts?

RoboTech
03-08-2006, 2:42 AM
If the DOJ gave you a bone would you sit?:confused: This is crazy. The Sporting Conversions kit, or any Home Depot kit similar in function is perfectly leagal. Why would you want to destroy your rifle? Dont lay down for them, get a spine. Stand up for your rights, instead of finding ways to apease them. They need to learn that we the people make the laws of the land and that they are our public servents. Protect and Serve.......not terrorize, threaten and harass. :mad:

Paramoose
03-08-2006, 4:27 AM
WHOA!!!!!!!!! Easy does it!!!!! First, just use the fixed mag kit...it fufills the requirements of the law. More than likely if ANY wording change in the law leads to having mags permanently fixed to the reciever, it will apply to all NEW imports. Like all of the past laws there is what is called "grandfathering" and that makes retroactive enforcement impossible. That is why none of the guys who owned AW's prior to the ban going into place had to modify or turn them in. I am not sure of all of the legalities involved, but it is not an action the DOJ could do without SERIOUS repucussions. If you are still so inclined, I would reccomend just doing what Vulcan did to make their lowers Calif legal. The magazine is epoxyed in place, not welded. DO NOT take a chance in ruining your lower by heat welding it. All of your tolerances could be lost from warpage. I don't think you want to make it into an expenisive paperweight. Just relax for the moment and lets all see what does happen. I do understand your philosophy...Hope for the best but prepair for the worst! (buy more ammo!)

glen avon
03-08-2006, 8:08 AM
If the DOJ gave you a bone would you sit? Dont lay down for them, get a spine. Stand up for your rights, instead of finding ways to apease them.

easy to be tough on somebody else's behalf.

I suppose you have defied all the un-constitutional so-called "assault weapon" laws, and marched right up to the capitol, spine intact and fully evil featured post SB23 AR15 on tow, and told them as your personal public servants, to obey *your* version of the law?

what's that? not yet? tomorrow maybe? no?

that's what I though.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa, shaddup.

megavolt121
03-08-2006, 8:21 AM
I am not sure of all of the legalities involved, but it is not an action the DOJ could do without SERIOUS repucussions

Hey even if it was legal, I dont think the DOJ wants to risk the NRA bringing down a fat lawsuit demanding money, not just an injunction.

crs1
03-08-2006, 8:35 AM
Weld the nut on the fixed mag kit...maybe?

NoTime2Shoot
03-08-2006, 9:12 AM
Epoxy and black pigment. Tap Plastics. If you would like to remove it at some point when you move to a free state, use mold release wax and PVA on the reciever.

LOW2000
03-08-2006, 11:24 AM
Is Glen Avon actually MarkM from AR15??

markymark
03-08-2006, 11:32 AM
easy to be tough on somebody else's behalf.

I suppose you have defied all the un-constitutional so-called "assault weapon" laws, and marched right up to the capitol, spine intact and fully evil featured post SB23 AR15 on tow, and told them as your personal public servants, to obey *your* version of the law?

what's that? not yet? tomorrow maybe? no?

that's what I though.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa, shaddup.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29817

glen avon
03-08-2006, 12:39 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29817

so be nice to me!

glen avon
03-08-2006, 12:40 PM
Is Glen Avon actually MarkM from AR15??

no, why?

..................

markymark
03-08-2006, 12:43 PM
so be nice to me!
Notice how I didn't add any other comments? ;)

shopkeep
03-08-2006, 4:01 PM
Glen Avon walks the border between being a Troll and an active member of the forums. He's a rather unusual character.

gh429
03-08-2006, 4:05 PM
WHOA!!!!!!!!! Easy does it!!!!! First, just use the fixed mag kit...it fufills the requirements of the law. More than likely if ANY wording change in the law leads to having mags permanently fixed to the reciever, it will apply to all NEW imports. Like all of the past laws there is what is called "grandfathering" and that makes retroactive enforcement impossible. That is why none of the guys who owned AW's prior to the ban going into place had to modify or turn them in. I am not sure of all of the legalities involved, but it is not an action the DOJ could do without SERIOUS repucussions. If you are still so inclined, I would reccomend just doing what Vulcan did to make their lowers Calif legal. The magazine is epoxyed in place, not welded. DO NOT take a chance in ruining your lower by heat welding it. All of your tolerances could be lost from warpage. I don't think you want to make it into an expenisive paperweight. Just relax for the moment and lets all see what does happen. I do understand your philosophy...Hope for the best but prepair for the worst! (buy more ammo!)

First off, thanks for your input regarding the epoxy / heat from welding issue, that definitely makes sense. Do you think just minor TIG spot welds would distort the frame? I guess I'll look into JB weld. :)

As you said, I am preparing for the worst. I do not believe that requiring the welding or permanent securing (instead of a sporting conversion kit) of the magazine to the frame of the rifle would be eligible for "grandfathering" or only on future purchases because to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the DOJ has not made a specific decision as to the legality of the sporting conversion. In fact hasn't the DOJ specifically refused to give its blessings to top-loading type rifles that did not have the magazine as part of the frame? Furthermore, I would imagine that in order to avoid the potential political liability of allowing the sale of 10K+ AR-15's that could be converted into an SB-23 AR-15 in the matter of 30 seconds (hehehe and that's why we love 'em) the DOJ would in fact seek to have the legislation and the intepretation of the legislation changed, as it is (relatively speaking) a minor change and would leave less room for legal challenge.

I'm looking for options at this point, because I'd like to have an idea of what to prepare for when the shoe does drop. I'm usually pretty busy (almost had to reDROS to pickup my 5th lower because I didn't have time to go get it), so I usually like to get things done in advance. Of course in the meantime I am just pinning the mags in with a nut. :)

EBWhite
03-08-2006, 4:38 PM
Just use black silicone or Permatex RTV ultra Black gasket maker....

JB weld is permanet and you will need to use a grinder and ruin the receiver later. Just use gasketmaker and be done with it. Don't worry about the DOJ.

glen avon
03-08-2006, 5:05 PM
Glen Avon walks the border between being a Troll and an active member of the forums. He's a rather unusual character.

it's not like they are mutually exclusive :confused:

jmgray
03-08-2006, 7:52 PM
I welded the mag catch to a nut on my ar. I am not confident in the sporting conversions system, now that i have my ar i dont want ANYthing to take it away from me. It can be easily reversed, I did not weld to the reciever at all. I put a washer over the mag catch stud, and then screwed on a regular nut. The washer held the nut a little high, so that when properly tightened the stud was only 1/2 threaded into the nut. Then a little MIG spot weld inside the nut to the stud. I can either drill out the weld or cut off the nut, replace the mag catch and im good to go.
If you weld directly to the receiver you will damage it, even with a TIG. The warping, loss of forged heat treating ect.
I can post a pic if my description is not clear - but i hear ya man, better safe then sorry.

Senna
03-08-2006, 9:48 PM
Are the magazines alluminum :confused:

jmgray
03-08-2006, 9:59 PM
most are steel, but some are alluminum.

RoboTech
03-09-2006, 3:06 AM
Glenn Avon you obviosly do not know me or what i have done. I am an active member of the NRA. I have been to plenty of events to support our constitutional right to have our arms. Being here in Sacramento gives me pletnty of opportunity to do this. I served 10 years in the Army in every craphole around the world you can think of, (Mogadishu and SandBox Part 1)included. To protect the rights of Boneheads like you, and people willing to give those rights up without a fight. To GH429 I do sinceraly appologize, I do have a tendency to get touchy and riled up on this matter. It's nothing personal against you. I can be a bit of a *******. According to this I'm in good company. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=29817

The fixed mag kit that sporting conversion sells or any similar Home Depot knockoff is perfecly legal. If you need just a little more assurance, use some blue locktite. To answer your question about my peticular .223 self loading rifle Glenn, if it was'nt for the fact you cant bring a weapon anywhere near the Capitol, or that brandishing a weapon in a public place is illegal, your damn right i would show it off. I'm not advocating the breaking of the law! But why should we have to apease and sneak around like we are criminals when we are not doing anything wrong? As for my personal LEGAL .223 self loading rifle, here she is in all of her glory. Evil features and all.:D

Paramoose
03-09-2006, 7:49 AM
Glad I could be of some service. Again, don't touch the reciever with a welder. Welding the nut in place is a good idea! I am still for the epoxy type of fix to things simply for it has the least potential for damage to the reciever.

Our best bet in this whole matter is to keep ourselves as informed as possible, reamain calm and use common sence when dealing with this. If the shoe does drop and the legislation is changed making the sporting conversion illegal, then we will deal with it then. I ceraintly do not expect a LEO to be standing at my door with a freshly printed letter from the DOJ outlining the revisions and wanting to see my "AR type" lower to make sure it complies with the law. Lets all cross that bridge when whe come to it. This thing could go alot of ways....lets hope for the best.

Keep monitoring the DOJ website for any announced changes, since the DOJ HAS to make a public announcement before the law is implimented so as to properly inform the public. I do believe that is the law....I just finished a graveyard shift and am a little sleepy, but that seems to be right. Anyway, I have rambled on enough and am going to enjoy an adult beverage before going to bed. Till next time

glen avon
03-09-2006, 8:12 AM
Glenn Avon ... I'm not advocating the breaking of the law...!

I misunderstood you then. I thought you were one of the blowhard gasbags who tell others not to obey the law blah blah blah. glad to see that's not the case.

Builder
03-09-2006, 9:09 AM
I agree that the allen nut with maybe some green Locktite should do the job legally.
Consider risk vs. benefit. Welding would be difficult and removal sometime in the future would be very difficult. There's the risk of damage to the receiver during the process. There's damage to the mag catch that would need to be replaced as would the risk of damage from removal. Also there would be the risk of corrosion after the weld. Then there's the epoxy suggestion. Epoxy can be as permanent as a weld. I should be less risky to the receiver, no corrosion, but removal might be just as damaging to all parts. Some epoxies have a low "glass transition temperature" which is the temp at which the epoxy softens and loses strength, so heating might do it. Most epoxies won't soften enough with heat for removal. Is it worth the risk when a lock nut will do the same job?
What is a person to do then if there needs to be some cleaning in the receiver mag well now that it is permanently fixed? How about using hot melt glue instead of welding or epoxy?! It is strong enough to hold the mag either on the mag or mag catch to receiver or nut and can still be removed. Here's the secret to removing the holt melt glue without damage. Spray a coating of isopropyl alcohol on the glue. Wait. In about 30 seconds, it loses its hold. It is strong enough the get benefit of a glued in mag but no risk of damage should there need to be a removal.
Builder

filefish
03-09-2006, 10:34 AM
Since I feel the path of least resistance for the DOJ is just to change the definition of a non-detachable magazine so that it must be physically part of the frame of the rifle, I was wondering if anyone can advise as to any experienced gunsmiths that can permanently secure the mag?

I know it's probably a bit premature, but I feel pretty strongly we're headed in this direction. IMO, if you think about it logically it meets the all the requirements of the DOJ and the spirit of SB23...

Thoughts?



I have a Vulcan fixed mag. Vulcan submitted a prototype to CADOJ and got an approval letter. What they did was to drill a small hole (about 1/8) in the receiver under the mag release. The hole goes through the edge of the magazine and the receiver. With the mag in place they installed a pin which holds the mag in place. (I was thinking of using a tap and an Allen stud so I could remove it if the receiver gets listed) then the mag release is installed as usual hiding the pin. Then the doj had them epoxy the mag in the well and tack-weld the base plate on the mag. If you wish to weld the mag in the well, I am not a metallurgist but, I think the only way would be to braise it or solder it which would require stripping the finish. I do not think you can weld dissimilar metals. The other method would be to get an aluminum mag and heliarc it which would require a master welder as it is very difficult to heliarc dissimilar thicknesses.

adamsreeftank
03-09-2006, 10:46 AM
If you are so concerned that you would risk damaging your receiver, why not just sell it and buy a Fab10.

ohsmily
03-10-2006, 11:07 AM
most are steel, but some are alluminum.

uh, no, most are aluminum and some are steel. (the crappy USA mag ones are steel and so are the british SA80 mags). All the USGI ones are aluminum.