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choprzrul
05-07-2010, 2:10 PM
So, my CLEO pretty much told me straight up that he does not issue CCWs to anyone. Rather than dwell on that, I chose to move forward with the next best thing, keeping a handgun within arms reach with a very simple lock. I went to Office Max and found an organizer that matched my size requirements.

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw1.jpg

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw2.jpg

I then went to the hardware store and bought some 1/4" and 1/2" foam rubber padding, a tube of shoe goo, a grommet kit, and a small Master 3 digit lock. I removed all of the contents of the organizer. I then put in a 1/4" layer of foam on the top, bottom, and sides. I then placed a sized piece of 1/2" foam on the bottom side, put the gun and magazines in place, and traced around them. I cut out their spots and glued the pieces in. I then looked carefully at the top and cut pieces to hold the gun and magazines in place when the organizer was closed. Shoe goo seems to hold everything very well, but the odor is still working its way out. I then took the grommet kit and put in a grommet on the closed end of the zipper. This gave me a place to run the lock through to secure the whole thing. It tucks under my arm nicely with the lock hidden by my upper arm. It also fits very well in my briefcase that I take with me when I am working in the field. The black lock blends in pretty well and no one has said a word about the portfolio. Here are some more pictures:

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw5.jpg

You can see the grommet and lock in the above picture.

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw3.jpg

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw4.jpg


Thoughts...Comments...??

Mstrty
05-07-2010, 2:58 PM
I Like it. I want a planner with one of those integral locks that are made into the zipper like a money bag except combo and not key.
Or something like this
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54968&stc=1&d=1273269631

One like this might look less like a lock. Great job keep it up.
http://www.wellpromo.com/upload/upimg84/Triangle-3-Digit-Combo-Pad-Loc-150684.jpg

djleisure
05-07-2010, 4:12 PM
Very nice and creative solution!

Smokeybehr
05-07-2010, 4:24 PM
So, my CLEO pretty much told me straight up that he does not issue CCWs to anyone.

Paging Team Billy Jack...

Time for a FOIA/PRA request to see if he's issued any CHLs or not. Also, you need to see if he's "Declared". In either case, I'd go to another CLEO, like the Sheriff, DA, or Presiding Judge if it's a COP. There's more than 1 way to get a CHL issued.

paul0660
05-07-2010, 4:29 PM
I like it.

1BigPea
05-07-2010, 4:31 PM
Nice! I don't think anyone would even think twice even if they did see the lock on it. Just another planner with important docs in it.

Nose Nuggets
05-07-2010, 4:34 PM
so the fact that a $.20 razor blade could get into that is not really a relevant concern i take it?

SevenFifty
05-07-2010, 4:36 PM
Looks like my Dillon Plan B

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 4:59 PM
so the fact that a $.20 razor blade could get into that is not really a relevant concern i take it?

To bring Nose Nuggets up to speed, here is the relevent Penal Code:

[quote]12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

I would have thought that it would be most obvious that this organizer was never meant to stop would be thieves, but rather to meet the above PC confines. Hope this helps.

Experimentalist
05-07-2010, 5:00 PM
so the fact that a $.20 razor blade could get into that is not really a relevant concern i take it?

Every security container has its vulnerabilities.

The law simply states that the firearm must be completely enclosed inside a locking case.

I'm waiting for my cordless drill battery to recharge so I can continue work on my RFID enabled LUCC case.

OP has a nice solution, everything is well restrained and where you expect it when you need it.

Edited to get the right quote.

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 5:08 PM
Looks like my Dillon Plan B

I like the looks of the Dillon Plan B. Since we have to carry unloaded with no mag inserted, only having 1 mag available is a concern for me. I do like the smaller size of the Dillon though.

Dillon Plan B Exterior Dimensions: 9.5" x 6 3/8" x 1 7/8"

My home made version: 10 1/2" x 8" x 2 1/4"

Mine is bigger but I like the 3 mag capacity. I might buy the Dillon to carry a 380 in when I need a smaller size.

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 5:11 PM
I'm waiting for my cordless drill battery to recharge so I can continue work on my RFID enabled LUCC case..

Link to your thread when you get yours done. I would really like to see it. Are you putting the RFID on your hand so that proximity unlocks the case? Could it be made into a holster? Quite interested.

HellnBack
05-07-2010, 5:22 PM
This works well except that in my case it was just a matter of time when I noticed an imprint in the bag,its my EDC,I hold it while to & from work & other places. but since its easy to make & readily available that shouldnt be a problem.
JMTC.

Nose Nuggets
05-07-2010, 5:48 PM
To bring Nose Nuggets up to speed, here is the relevent Penal Code:


I would have thought that it would be most obvious that this organizer was never meant to stop would be thieves, but rather to meet the above PC confines. Hope this helps.

Every security container has its vulnerabilities.

The law simply states that the firearm must be completely enclosed inside a locking case.

I'm waiting for my cordless drill battery to recharge so I can continue work on my RFID enabled LUCC case.

OP has a nice solution, everything is well restrained and where you expect it when you need it.

Edited to get the right quote.

Sweet, thanks guys.

So, you could make a "case" out of a clear plastic bag. so long as it fully enclosed the pistol and had a lock on it, you are okay. the fact that you can tear the case in half with your fingers is not relevant?

Billy Jack
05-07-2010, 6:12 PM
So, my CLEO pretty much told me straight up that he does not issue CCWs to anyone. Rather than dwell on that, I chose to move forward with the next best thing, keeping a handgun within arms reach with a very simple lock. I went to Office Max and found an organizer that matched my size requirements.

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw1.jpg

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw2.jpg

I then went to the hardware store and bought some 1/4" and 1/2" foam rubber padding, a tube of shoe goo, a grommet kit, and a small Master 3 digit lock. I removed all of the contents of the organizer. I then put in a 1/4" layer of foam on the top, bottom, and sides. I then placed a sized piece of 1/2" foam on the bottom side, put the gun and magazines in place, and traced around them. I cut out their spots and glued the pieces in. I then looked carefully at the top and cut pieces to hold the gun and magazines in place when the organizer was closed. Shoe goo seems to hold everything very well, but the odor is still working its way out. I then took the grommet kit and put in a grommet on the closed end of the zipper. This gave me a place to run the lock through to secure the whole thing. It tucks under my arm nicely with the lock hidden by my upper arm. It also fits very well in my briefcase that I take with me when I am working in the field. The black lock blends in pretty well and no one has said a word about the portfolio. Here are some more pictures:

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw5.jpg

You can see the grommet and lock in the above picture.

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw3.jpg

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/choprzrul/ccw4.jpg


Thoughts...Comments...??

You had better cut out a place to carry bail money as you shall be going to jail if that weapon comes to law enforcement attention. If you have it stolen you would have to acknowledge carrying it illegally when reporting it stolen.

Care to send old Billy Jack the name of the department via PM? we would not want to embarrass the Chief here.

When a younger Billy Jack was a LEO we always enjoyed people who tried to circumvent the CCW law. Have lip balm handy for when you get to kiss the pavement.

Billy Jack



www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

GrizzlyGuy
05-07-2010, 6:17 PM
Very cool case!

So, you could make a "case" out of a clear plastic bag. so long as it fully enclosed the pistol and had a lock on it, you are okay. the fact that you can tear the case in half with your fingers is not relevant?

That probably wouldn't pass Librarian's 10-year-old test (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3403362#post3403362).

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 6:45 PM
So now I am confused. When I look at the penal code it exempts unloaded carry in a locked container. PC does not define 'locked container' so we are left to decide. obviously a zip lock bag is not enough and an armored car would be too much. PC does state that a combination lock is acceptable. I see videos of gun safes being broken into so where is the threshold of locked container?

advocatusdiaboli
05-07-2010, 6:50 PM
Sweet, thanks guys.

So, you could make a "case" out of a clear plastic bag. so long as it fully enclosed the pistol and had a lock on it, you are okay. the fact that you can tear the case in half with your fingers is not relevant?

Our resident sage The Librarian has frowned on this and I believe we should give great weight to his counsel for he is learned in these matters. He proposed an excellent rule: The Ten-yearold Rule. The rule is this: if a ten-yearold can get into the container quickly with out using using the key or combination and without using force or tools unavailable to the average ten-yearold, then it meets the test. Clear plastic bag. No. These planners, I think yes.

Taking a little license here, I'll venture to say the reason the Librarian prosed the rule is that while a bag may seem adequate when you first try it, if you end up shooting somebody, their attorney and the DA might bring up the fact that a reasonable person would not find it secure enough--and the consequences for you if the jury buys their argument are dire indeed. The Ten-yearold Rule provides you with enough cover that you'll likely escape that angle of attack.

If the Librarian is lurking here or there he might weigh in.

Nose Nuggets
05-07-2010, 6:53 PM
Very cool case!



That probably wouldn't pass Librarian's 10-year-old test (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3403362#post3403362).

Are you suggesting a 10 year old could not competently operate a pair of scissors to gain entry to the OP's "locked container"?

GrizzlyGuy
05-07-2010, 6:59 PM
Are you suggesting a 10 year old could not competently operate a pair of scissors to gain entry to the OP's "locked container"?

No, but it might at least take him longer than 10 seconds. ;)

Unfortunately, this is a grey area. From the wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting#Secure_container):

Secure container

Secure is not defined in the Penal Code. The implication of the lock language suggests access to the handgun should be difficult without properly opening the lock. While this page cannot recommend brands or models, both hard-sided and soft-sided gun cases and other 'substantial' enclosures which can be locked would seem to fulfill the requirements of the law.

Fully enclosed

Fully enclosed is not defined in the Penal Code. This language does disallow the use of only a trigger lock or cable lock; locks without the fully-enclosing containers are not locked containers.

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 7:00 PM
sure would like to hear from hoffmang or another one of the right people. if cgf does not have my back on this i am bailing. posting from phone so text editin is bad.

titus7
05-07-2010, 7:07 PM
So would this be legal to have inside of your vehicle with loaded mags as long as it is locked and the mags are not in the magwell??

And before any comments it obviously wouldnt be done with an SBR (CALIFORNIA) It would be done with an AR pistol.

Sorry dont mean to steal barge in on the thread it just gave me an idea.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/titus7/SM7A-CUK-00BT-02-7.jpg

3030
05-07-2010, 7:10 PM
Maxpedition Active Shooter Bag and toss in a Microvault, no need to lock the ASB, just stick your hand in the bag, push a button to unlock and out she comes :)

http://i.walmartimages.com/i/mp/00/87/64/04/00/0087640400756_P255062_AV_500X500.jpg

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_229932_imageset_01?$main-Large$

GrizzlyGuy
05-07-2010, 7:52 PM
sure would like to hear from hoffmang or another one of the right people. if cgf does not have my back on this i am bailing. posting from phone so text editin is bad.

Here you go (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3560901#post3560901). :)

Having studied the concealed carry exemptions pretty thoroughly, I tend to agree with cmth (LUCC is a legal minefield) whenever you are not in or on a motor vehicle. To each his own, and having CGF on your side sure can't hurt.

choprzrul
05-07-2010, 9:20 PM
So, here is Gene's take on this from another thread that Grizzly linked to above:

*sigh* LUCC is good enough for most gun lawyers in California who can't get CCWs to use. A unloaded handgun in a locked container isn't going to get you in trouble, especially since it is by definition concealed. Think about the fact that actually CCWing a loaded handgun registered to you is a minor misdemeanor. The reason it's not court tested is because it is simply legal and therefor people don't tend to be charged with anything.

I'm pretty confident that CGF will defend any attempted LUCC prosecution where the rest of the facts are ok (read, no drug dealers, lacerny attempts, vandalism, etc.) In point of fact, we already have defended an LUCC case as I think about it. The charge was concealed carry but the handguns were unloaded in locked containers that were broken open by law enforcement. Loved those facts. All charges dropped was the answer on that case.

-Gene

Hmmm...it would seem, given the above quote, that CGF has our back if LE gets stupid about this. Of particular interest to me is that PC specifically exempts LUCC from concealed carry penalties. Now it would seem that the question is regarding the standard of "locked container". Since the portfolio I made will fit nicely in my briefcase (title to this thread afterall), I can lock the briefcase also thus giving me layers of locked containers. A locked container inside a locked container would surely meet any minimum standard for both LE and juries (heaven forbid). This entire discussion reminds me of the basic premise of network and computer security: CIA in proper balance. CIA = Confidentiality, Integrity, and Availability. No matter what, when one aspect is changed, it always effects the balance of the other two areas. I feel that my portfolio achieves Confidentiality and a resonable level of availability. The question is centered on the state's standard for Integrity.

pgg
05-07-2010, 9:30 PM
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

So what's the point?

You can carry it from your house to your car, from your car to your house, from your car to a range, and from a range to your car. Maybe, possibly from your car to your place of employment and back, if you have some lawful purpose for taking it to work (do you expect to shoot it there? get it serviced?). Not while walking your dog, or going to the movies, or in a restaurant ...

So great, you can carry an unloaded and not rapidly accessible gun in your driveway.


I have 3 registered AWs but I can't stick them unloaded in a locked guitar-shaped case and stroll into a quickie mart, Desperado style.

Marxman
05-07-2010, 9:46 PM
Are you suggesting a 10 year old could not competently operate a pair of scissors to gain entry to the OP's "locked container"?

If you transport your pistol in a soft-case or a pistol rug with a lock on it can't the ten year old with scissors open that up too? IIRC locked pistol rugs and soft-cases count as locked containers, so why wouldn't the planner qualify as a reasonable lockable container?

GrizzlyGuy
05-07-2010, 9:57 PM
FWIW: IMHO, your LUCC case is plenty good for a legal secure container. I slap a $2 combo lock on a cheap Cabela's gun rug and call it a day. Same "secure" ballpark, a 10-year-old using all 10 fingers and all 10 toes won't open either one in 10 seconds and maybe not 10 minutes without tools. We're golden. :)

But... I'm not sure how you concluded this:

Of particular interest to me is that PC specifically exempts LUCC from concealed carry penalties.

Example: You decide to walk over to your local public park and spend the day there reading, sunbathing, and playing a little B-ball. You bring along your LUCC case for security. You walk home at the end of the day.

From the moment that you stepped across your property line, until the moment that you stepped across it again when you came home... LUCC was illegal and you were risking a 12025 charge.

Had you instead decided to ride your motorcycle to the park, you would be fine up until the moment that you sat down in your lawn chair at the park. At that moment you were no longer transporting, just possessing, so you were risking a 12025 charge.

Everyone needs to decide for themselves how they want to manage risk and how/when/where they want to carry. But there are lots and lots of situations when LUCC isn't technically legal per the Penal Code.

hammerhands32
05-07-2010, 9:58 PM
Directly to and from the motor vehicle for any lawful purpose. Going to the movies seems lawful, as does walking the dog. You just can't walk the dog from the house only the motor vehicle.

Please note that the above is written to the standard of the ca penal code ( It doesn't really make sense)

tankerman
05-07-2010, 10:22 PM
so the fact that a $.20 razor blade could get into that is not really a relevant concern i take it?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/container
Main Entry: con·tain·er
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈtā-nər\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: one that contains: as a : a receptacle (as a box or jar) for holding goods b : a portable compartment in which freight is placed (as on a train or ship) for convenience of movement

oaklander
05-08-2010, 9:20 AM
Please note that this is not legal advice, which can only be given to you by your lawyer, that being said. . .

While I respect BJ's opinion on these matters, it should be noted that he has financial reasons to discourage LUCC.

As has been debated ad nauseum, the general basic rule is that there is NO RULE. The law does not specify what is a locked container. I can tell you that thousands of Californians, me included, transport their unloaded rifles in soft locked nylon rifle "bags" when they pass through school zones on the way to the range (and they aren't being transferred in a locked trunk).

I have yet to hear of a court case that requires a "hard case" for this type of transport.

While LUCC relies on a different law, I have heard of no case, or even arrest, merely because the "locked container" wasn't made out of something hard.

I think Librarian's "10 year old" test is sufficient. That is my personal opinion.

n2k
05-08-2010, 9:51 AM
This has always worked for me:

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/n2kphotos/274442.jpg

On sale:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Promotion/default.aspx?promotionid=272100&utm_source=fp1&utm_medium=homepage

dantodd
05-08-2010, 11:06 AM
You had better cut out a place to carry bail money as you shall be going to jail if that weapon comes to law enforcement attention. If you have it stolen you would have to acknowledge carrying it illegally when reporting it stolen.

Care to send old Billy Jack the name of the department via PM? we would not want to embarrass the Chief here.

When a younger Billy Jack was a LEO we always enjoyed people who tried to circumvent the CCW law. Have lip balm handy for when you get to kiss the pavement.

Billy Jack



www.californiaconcealedcarry.com
what PC are you claiming would be broken by carrying in such a manner? And can you cite any cases where someone was charged for mere carrying in such a manner? If not; in Billy-speak: "Forked tongue brave blowing smoke signals."

advocatusdiaboli
05-08-2010, 11:41 AM
The way I am reading this is that because the law is so vague, LEOs have wide latitude for PC regarding what is legal and illegal in LUCC and to make arrests.

NOTA BENE: Given that the law is so vague--my conclusions below are pertaining not to the legality, but rather to the likelihood and LEOs will see PC and arrest you for a violation.

Assuming no associated or accompanying crime and the pistol is legal:

1) I am coming to the conclusion that if it is in your car and you are going to or from a range you are golden.

2) I conclude that you are pretty safe if in the car and there is reasonable evidence that a range trip is somehow associated with the carry or even if the intent eventually to go was there when the trip commenced and you are perambulating and may even have abandoned that goal.

3) However, once you take it out of the vehicle and carry it around and will not reasonably be thought going to or from a range or your home to the car to the range, you are increasingly less safe.

4) The more connected to your body the container is, the closer to a holster it may be in the eyes of LEOs. On a scale ranging from not very close to attached to you with increasing risk: the planner or other container carried in the hands, a purse or shoulder/messenger bag across and arm or shoulder, a back pack over both shoulders, and a fanny pack attached to the waist.

REMINDER: my conclusion are not about legality which is impossible given the vagueness of the code, it is about my perceived probability you'll be arrested by an LEO if discovered.

Thoughts? Corrections?

GrizzlyGuy
05-08-2010, 12:01 PM
Assuming no associated or accompanying crime and the pistol is legal:

1) I am coming to the conclusion that if it is in your car and you are going to or from a range you are golden.

2) I conclude that you are pretty safe if in the car and there is reasonable evidence that a range trip is somehow associated with the carry or even the intent eventually to go was there when the trip commenced.

3) However, once you take it out and carry it around and will not reasonably be thought going to or from a range or your home to the car to the range, you are increasingly less safe.

You don't need to be going to the range to be legal while transporting in a locked container in/on a motor vehicle, or going directly to/from the vehicle. Any lawful purpose for your transport will do. From 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html):

The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.

IMHO, other than the vagueness about what constitutes a locked and secure container, the concealed carry exemptions aren't vague at all. The mistakes people make in interpreting them seem to generally be:

1) Mistakenly assuming that once a handgun is in a locked container, you can transport it anywhere in any way for any lawful reason. You can't, 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) (for example) only applies to transport via motor vehicles.

2) Assuming that the 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) exemption continues to apply while you are doing the activity (or at the place) that was your lawful purpose for transporting. It doesn't. It only gets you to the activity or place.

3) Assuming that 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) is the only exemption. While it is the "best" one if transporting via motor vehicle, there are many more exemptions in 12025.5 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.5.html), 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html), 12026.2 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html) and 12027 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html). Those are important because they are what you need to use when transporting on foot, on a bicycle, etc. or while doing the lawful activity or carrying/possessing at a place. For example, if it wasn't for 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html), you wouldn't be able to carry concealed at your own house.

choprzrul
05-08-2010, 1:26 PM
So, as long as I have a valid hunting license and a pig permit, I can always be on my way to, or just returning from a pig hunt.

12027: (g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

Since wild pigs are found in any direction from where I am at, no matter which direction I am travelling, I could quite conceivably be going to or returning from pig hunting. Now to research into whether or not a 9mm is a legal weapon for shooting pigs.

**edit** found the dfg regulation on pigs:

(c) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs.
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#353

choprzrul
05-08-2010, 1:27 PM
I suppose that 12027 would work with a valid fishing permit also as all roads in CA lead to the ocean, lake, stream, pond, or river. Just keep a pocket fisherman and a lure in the vehicle.

**edit** as far as this section relates to fishing, I would think that one could keep 10yds of monofilament, a hook, and your fishing license in your locked container.

Officer: 'what are you doing', or 'where you headed'
LUCC'r: 'going fishing'

It would appear that 12027 would exempt you from prosecution under 12025 as long as you could show that you have the implements and permit for fishing. Just thinking this through as I go.

advocatusdiaboli
05-08-2010, 1:33 PM
So, as long as I have a valid hunting license and a pig permit, I can always be on my way to, or just returning from a pig hunt.
Since wild pigs are found in any direction from where I am at, no matter which direction I am travelling, I could quite conceivably be going to or returning from pig hunting. Now to research into whether or not a 9mm is a legal weapon for shooting pigs.

I believe the idea is for hunters and fishers to have protection from wounded game, human predators, etc. And the law doesn't restrict calibers in that case.
The carry has to be open but it can be loaded while hunting but not sure about fishing.

choprzrul
05-08-2010, 1:37 PM
I believe the idea is for hunters and fishers to have protection from wounded game, human predators, etc. And the law doesn't restrict calibers in that case.
The carry has to be open but it can be loaded while hunting but not sure about fishing.

California Penal Code Section 12027

Section 12025 (ccw, my emphasis) does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:

...

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

bohoki
05-08-2010, 1:41 PM
FWIW: IMHO, your LUCC case is plenty good for a legal secure container. I slap a $2 combo lock on a cheap Cabela's gun rug and call it a day. Same "secure" ballpark, a 10-year-old using all 10 fingers and all 10 toes won't open either one in 10 seconds and maybe not 10 minutes without tools. We're golden. :)

But... I'm not sure how you concluded this:



Example: You decide to walk over to your local public park and spend the day there reading, sunbathing, and playing a little B-ball. You bring along your LUCC case for security. You walk home at the end of the day.

From the moment that you stepped across your property line, until the moment that you stepped across it again when you came home... LUCC was illegal and you were risking a 12025 charge.

Had you instead decided to ride your motorcycle to the park, you would be fine up until the moment that you sat down in your lawn chair at the park. At that moment you were no longer transporting, just possessing, so you were risking a 12025 charge.

Everyone needs to decide for themselves how they want to manage risk and how/when/where they want to carry. But there are lots and lots of situations when LUCC isn't technically legal per the Penal Code.

zippers are not very secure

the tsa often doesnt need the master key
6wCwmYQRTrg

dreslinger
05-08-2010, 3:05 PM
A master lock can be defeated using a piece of soda can and pliars. If people are afraid of what can be easily opened, think about that. The PC is not defining what is a "good" lock, just basic guidelines on how to do it. Specifics are intentionally left out. I agree with Libraian, a 10 year old with no tools. Bottom line is, I like the case but am not willing to spend my time in county waiting for things to get cleared up. That is just me. I like the Dillon and would probably go that way. After all, I plan to go to the range later and do not have a lock box or trunk to store it so I am keeping it with me to "prevent" possible theft.

GrizzlyGuy
05-08-2010, 3:11 PM
It would appear that 12027 would exempt you from prosecution under 12025 as long as you could show that you have the implements and permit for fishing. Just thinking this through as I go.

Yes, I sometimes use that one when I'm in or heading over to the national forest to do some hunting or fishing (only a few miles from my house and there are no school zones along the route). Coyotes and jack rabbits can be taken 365 days/yr, as can most rodents. I've never met a trout that I didn't like, although I've met plenty that had no interest in being caught. :o

The nice thing about that exemption and all of them in 12027 is that you don't need a locked container. Shove the gun in your jacket and you're golden, whether transporting via motor vehicle, on foot, horseback, etc. Although legal, many people recommend not doing that so as to reduce the LEO drama potential. The LEOs around here are generally the low-drama types so I don't worry about it too much.

choprzrul
05-08-2010, 5:53 PM
As long as I have a fishing permit and some kind of fishing implement with me, I can be going to or returning from fishing and thus legally be CCW? Am I reading this correctly? No locked container needed?

**edit** read 12027 again, above holds only if unloaded.

advocatusdiaboli
05-08-2010, 6:18 PM
As long as I have a fishing permit and some kind of fishing implement with me, I can be going to or returning from fishing and thus legally be CCW? Am I reading this correctly? No locked container needed?

**edit** read 12027 again, above holds only if unloaded.

There you fixed in (bold) before I commented. As a person who often fly fishes in small groups or alone, protection is something I need. I paid a lot of attention to this one, OUC seems to work but, and a big but, not in state parks which really sucks. Crappy state we live in. Unless i have it wrong.

GrizzlyGuy
05-08-2010, 6:43 PM
There you fixed in (bold) before I commented. As a person who often fly fishes in small groups or alone, protection is something I need. I paid a lot of attention to this one, OUC seems to work but, and a big but, not in state parks which really sucks. Crappy state we live in. Unless i have it wrong.

You have it right. If you aren't in a motor vehicle using a mechanical mode of conveyance, there is no legal means for bringing a firearm into a state park. It isn't pretty even when you have a motor vehicle mechanical mode of conveyance: Can I have a firearm in a state park? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_have_a_firearm_in_a_state_park.3F)

For the 12027 (g) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html) hunting/fishing exemption it only needs to be unloaded while going to or from the expedition. Once you are actually hunting/fishing, you can have it loaded as well if 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html) and any other relevant laws/regulations allow it. Adding some white space to 12027 (g) like this helps show the two parts, "unloaded" is only in the second part:

Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing,

or

transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

EDIT: The state park regulations use the term "mechanical mode of conveyance" instead of "motor vehicle".