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team06
03-07-2006, 7:18 AM
Group:
I actualy did try to search this out but couldn't find the info. Here is my question. I have a non listed AR built to legal specs (as the specs are TODAY), can my minor son shoot it with me present?
I had heard that if it hits the AW list that if he shoots it I become a felon, so I am wondering how it sits now. Aren't the offlist guns treated the same as any other long guns?

Thanks,
Dave Wilson

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2006, 8:21 AM
Yes they are Dave or you wouldn't be able to possess them. Once they are listed, then the rules change.

-aK-
03-07-2006, 10:19 AM
It definately is fine to let him shoot it now in its fully legal configuration.

Even if it does become an AW and you register it as such I was not aware that you letting a minor shoot it makes you a felon.

You can lend an AW to someone to examine, fire, test, or check it out as long as it is done in your presence.

At least if my memory serves me correct.

bwiese
03-07-2006, 10:48 AM
You can lend an AW to someone to examine, fire, test, or check it out as long as it is done in your presence.

At least if my memory serves me correct.

Your memory does not serve you correctly...

...that 'someone' is OK as long as he's 18 or over and in your presence, if it's a registered AW.

Letting a minor shoot an AW is very, very questionable - even if under your direct and immediate supervision (i.e., standing over your kid's shoulder and he fires at your direction), as it revolves around what 'lend' means.

If it's a plain rifle (i.e., fixed 10rd mag off-list lower buildup) then it's OK - until listed.

I believe somewhere on the Chuck Michel-influenced website (calgunlaws.com) that there is discussion that you can't let your kid shoot your AW.


12280 (k) Subdivision (a) [general penalty+prohibition on giving/lending AW] shall not apply to:
(1) A person who lawfully possesses and has registered an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter who lends that assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle to another if all the following apply:
(A) The person to whom the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is lent is 18 years of age or over and is not in a class of persons prohibited from possessing firearms by virtue of Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(B) The person to whom the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifleis lent remains in the presence of the registered possessor of the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle.
(C) The assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is possessed at any of the following locations:
(i) While on a target range that holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range.
(ii) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets.
(iii) While attending any exhibition, display, or educational project that is about firearms and that is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms

ocabj
03-07-2006, 10:48 AM
According to current law, you cannot "lend" an AW to a minor.

The California code does not define the word "lend" in the context of AWs.

The dictionary defintion of "lend" is "to grant to someone the use of something on the understanding that it will be returned."

But this dictionary definition has grey areas in interpretation with respects of letting a minor under the age of 18 shoot your AW while you are present. If you let someone else shoot your AW while you are present, you are granting them use of it. But the issue at hand is are you actually giving up possession of the AW such that it has to be "returned"? Since you are present and are not at any time away from the AW during the discharging of said AW by the minor, I would argue no. But legal professionals may argue yes.

Does anyone have a DoJ letter stating the interpretation of "lend" in the context of the use of an Assault Weapon?

-aK-
03-07-2006, 10:52 AM
I guess it doesn't. Thanks for clearing that up Bill.

Rumpled
03-07-2006, 11:21 AM
I brought this subject up with a coworker a while ago.
His underage son, a police explorer, got to go to the desert and shoot full-auto with the cops.
Dad was jealous and the cops and the son were probably violating the law. (Unless a cop exception extends to explorers, but they aren't sworn officers; they're kids)

bwiese
03-07-2006, 11:22 AM
I brought this subject up with a coworker a while ago.
His underage son, a police explorer, got to go to the desert and shoot full-auto with the cops.
Dad was jealous and the cops and the son were probably violating the law. (Unless a cop exception extends to explorers, but they aren't sworn officers; they're kids)

Yep. And if Iggy were there, he'd've busted them.

Kevlarman
03-07-2006, 5:28 PM
Which is why Iggy is a punk.
;)

-aK-
03-08-2006, 6:55 AM
Which is why Iggy is a punk.
;)

Iggy may or may not be a punk, but not for that, if it happened.

The police should be held to the same standards as everyone else. After all they are also CA citizens.

YMMV but I believe there should be equality.

I believe any common infantry weapon should not be able to be deemed illegal by any government lest they become tyrannical and oppressive.

Certain things should/can be considered too dangerous. Main battle tanks or ICBM's for example could and should be a restricted item for both the police and the citizens. However any weapon that the police are allowed to carry the lawful citizen should also be allowed to carry. If not then King George's men can and will impose their own will on whomever they want, whenever they want.

ALTSEC972
03-08-2006, 3:08 PM
Your memory does not serve you correctly...

12280 (k) Subdivision (a) [general penalty+prohibition on giving/lending AW] shall not apply to:
(1) A person who lawfully possesses and has registered an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter who lends that assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle to another if all the following apply:
(A) The person to whom the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is lent is 18 years of age or over and is not in a class of persons prohibited from possessing firearms by virtue of Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(B) The person to whom the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifleis lent remains in the presence of the registered possessor of the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle.
(C) The assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is possessed at any of the following locations:
(i) While on a target range that holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range.
(ii) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets.
(iii) While attending any exhibition, display, or educational project that is about firearms and that is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms


No where on here does it allow you to posess AW's in a working environment.... and I have to wonder.... Can Security people/ Executive Protection Specialists/ Bodyguards/ licensed investigative professionals, etc. who are in full compliance with the laws for their respective professions keep AW's on site, when they are in a working/ protection capacity? It would seem kinda ridiculous to me, if they can have a CCW, have all of the training obligations, and be responsible for the protection of high profile clients, and yet they cannot keep any firepower with them to protect their clients.

I don't know where this falls, or if anyone knows the answer to this, but I just thought about this while reading these subsections you posted Bill. I think I will need to find this out ASAP, since it affects alot of my friends, and possibly myself.

bwiese
03-08-2006, 4:45 PM
No where on here does it allow you to posess AW's in a working environment.... and I have to wonder.... Can Security people/ Executive Protection Specialists/ Bodyguards/ licensed investigative professionals, etc. who are in full compliance with the laws for their respective professions keep AW's on site, when they are in a working/ protection capacity?

I don't know where this falls, or if anyone knows the answer to this, but I just thought about this while reading these subsections you posted Bill. I think I will need to find this out ASAP, since it affects alot of my friends, and possibly myself.

If it's your biz, you can keep AWs in your building/office.

If it's someone else's biz (i.e., your boss), you need owner's permission.

If you're visiting a friend's house that he owns, and he gives permission, you can visit him with your AWs.

If you're visiting a friend's house/apt that he RENTS, his permission is not the key thing - you need the owner's permission to visit the renter with AWs.

If you want to use/transport a registered AW in any manner different than what the law prescribes, you'll need to seek a nearly unattainable AW permit, which DOJ issues on a discretionary basis.

Some 'bright' folks got their AW pistols (say, HK SP89) listed on their CCW cards. CCW permit does not trump AW laws; if travelling to/thru, or ending up at a destination not authorized for AWs (practically everywhere, esp w/day to day wear of a CCW) these guys are in felony territory. The very fact that they're not carrying them unloaded and in a locked case is a 12280(a) violation anyway.

For all practical purposes in CA, AWs are for fun, and for hunting in limited areas (i.e., BLM land etc.) Perhaps one or two ultra-top-notch ultraexpensive executive protection services may have permitted AWs at their disposal but that would be as rare as hen's teeth (maybe a half-dozen, if any?)

ALTSEC972
03-08-2006, 4:53 PM
Thanks Bill.... figured as much..... But I find it completely moronic that EP guys couldn't keep these around to protect their clients, provided they followed all of the laws to a "T".....
With the pathetic response times of law enforcement in this state, The client and their entire EP team could be taken out in a matter of a few minutes, if they only have pistols, and a few mags to protect the clients.

well, I guess the guys with Uzi's at Hugh Hefner's house are breaking the law, big time!

bwiese
03-08-2006, 4:59 PM
well, I guess the guys with Uzi's at Hugh Hefner's house are breaking the law, big time!

Uzi pistols are banned by name.

But if they're clones of Uzi Model B pistols - they could well be legal. Such clones of Uzi pistols are not generic assault weapons if they do not have a flash hider or threaded barrel and do not have the magwell separate from the grip, nor have a buttstock.

7.62MM
03-08-2006, 6:27 PM
So if the off list AR type .223 self loading rifle( I still cant get one load it self yet ?) has a fixed mag will it ever be a AW ? It might as well be a ***-10 .So a minor or anybody else should be able to shoot it with or without you. I cant see any reason why it would make it to a list unless they change the rules again and even more strict .Can not have sights ,No butt stock,No barrel ,Can not accept bullets.So then we are all stuck with evil balck paperweights .I am just glad I finally have one of my own I slept with someone elses for 4 years.

artherd
03-09-2006, 2:24 AM
Uzi pistols are banned by name.

But if they're clones of Uzi Model B pistols - they could well be legal. Such clones of Uzi pistols are not generic assault weapons if they do not have a flash hider or threaded barrel and do not have the magwell separate from the grip, nor have a buttstock.
Bill, I bet those were full MGs...

ALTSEC972
03-09-2006, 11:42 AM
so how do I get my hands on a CA legal Uzi pistol??

bwiese
03-09-2006, 12:02 PM
so how do I get my hands on a CA legal Uzi pistol??

Pretty difficult, if not impossible.

I believe the Uzi pistol is referred to as Micro Uzi or Uzi Model B. (These are a different platform than a regular Uzi that just happens to have a short barrel.)
I think they're in 9mm and 45ACP.

I don't think any other company made these under license, they were all IMI Uzis, which are banned by name as part of Roberti-Roos AWCA '89 - for both the rifle & handgun categories.

Now, regular Uzi rifles (carbines) were made by several vendors. In fact, there are inventories of Group Industries receivers legal for semiauto use still around. If you lived outside CA in a free state, and these receivers were 4473'd as a handgun to you, before 9/1994 and since 9/2004 you could build these receivers up into a handgun - providing there was no buttstock present to trigger an NFA violation.

You can't build such handguns in CA, and the Group Industries receiver could not be transferred to you as a handgun.

In addition - even though the mag well is in the pistol grip on such guns - the forward shroud/grip area would trigger a definition of AW:


12276.1(a)
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
.
.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.


From a practical standpoint, these aren't that much use. Especially since you can't legally get hicap mags for these.

Better off with a wide-body, long-slide 1911 in 45ACP...

ALTSEC972
03-09-2006, 12:14 PM
Thanks Bill..... while they may not be much use to the general public, they'd be of use to me, (# of rounds in them doesn't matter, but being able to use the stock would be).

yoda
03-09-2006, 11:01 PM
Question:

Under what circumstances, if any, may a minor legally
discharge a legally registered assault weapon, assuming this takes place on a target range or other location where AW use is permitted and under the direct supervision, control and constant presence of the registered AW owner?




Answer:

Pursuant to Penal Code Section 12280(a)(2) you are not allowed to lend
an assault weapon to a minor under any circumstances. I have copied the
code section for you to review.

12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes
to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state,
keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any
assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter,
is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by
imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.
(2) In addition and consecutive to the punishment imposed under
paragraph (1), any person who transfers, lends, sells, or gives any
assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle to a minor in violation of paragraph
(1) shall receive an enhancement of one year.

Sally Carney, Field Representative
Firearms Division

team06
03-10-2006, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the AW passages...
It looks like everything for me and my son will be just fine up until the time the AR-ish gun in question may be added to the AW list or Class 4 list. My son had helped with the assembly of it and it would have been a shame for him to now have to wait 6 more years to test fire it for himself. I do hope to have completely shot out the barrel by the time he turns 18, I figure if I actualy wear out a barrel, then I have definately got my moneys worth.

Dave Wilson