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rrr70
05-06-2010, 8:00 AM
Known their history, it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner~y2010m5d5-LAPD-lobbying-to-end-gun-rights

glockman19
05-06-2010, 8:12 AM
Who's the Terrorist? The one exercising his "inaleiable rights" or the one attempting to take them away?

advocatusdiaboli
05-06-2010, 12:22 PM
Who's the Terrorist? The one exercising his "inaleiable rights" or the one attempting to take them away?

I don't think the one taking them away is a terrorist: it doesn't fit the definition as they aren't trying to terrorize us. However they are trampling the Constitution and that is a very grave threat to our constitutional rights. that's worse than terrorism because it injures everyone for posterity.

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 12:25 PM
Who's the Terrorist? The one exercising his "inaleiable rights" or the one attempting to take them away?

The one trying to take away rights would be a tyrant, who will label anyone trying to hang onto their rights as a rebel, or terrorist, or any other disparaging term they can think of to force compliance. Oh here's another word tyrants would use to describe anyone resisting them:

Target.

Tarn_Helm
05-06-2010, 12:30 PM
Known their history, it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner~y2010m5d5-LAPD-lobbying-to-end-gun-rights

The link seems not to work at the moment.

A partial version of the article is available here:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/2507865/posts
(http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/2507865/posts)

If anyone has the entire version of the original article, it would be nice if we could see it.
:cool2:

RobG
05-06-2010, 1:11 PM
You'd think they would be more concered with interdepartmental corruption.

kcbrown
05-06-2010, 1:13 PM
Here's the original article's text:




LAPD lobbying to end gun rights

May 5, 5:14 PMhttp://image.examiner.com/img/greydot.gifLA History Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner)http://image.examiner.com/img/greydot.gifCharles Nichols

Two years ago this June the United States Supreme Court said the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights was an individual right to own guns unconnected with service in a militia.

Today, in Washington D.C., Los Angeles Policed Department spokeswoman Sandy Jo MacArthur testified before the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs in support of legislation that would take away an individual's right to buy a firearm and allow the Attorney General to deny anyone the right to buy a gun by merely claiming that he or she might be a potential terrorist or appears on some watch list. The hearing was labeled "TERRORISTS AND GUNS: THE NATURE OF THE THREAT AND PROPOSED REFORMS" S.1317 is titled "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009"

This really shouldn't surprise anyone. The LAPD has a long history of opposition to our Constitutional right to own a gun. Have you heard about the LAPD death squad? Not the 1996 Rampart one but the original set up in 1926 by then LAPD Chief James E. Davis. You can read about it here (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner%7Ey2009m10d14-LAPDs-Death-Squad).

Of the eight persons testifying before the Committee only one person testified against the legislation. Aaron Titus of the Liberty Coalition who summed up the bill as thus: "In short, S.1317 should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Act," because it gives the Attorney General the discretion to deny someone the enumerated Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, based on "suspicion" and "belief" of terrorist inclinations. In addition, S.1317 would turn NICS into a defacto National Firearm Registry. It will collect detailed personal information like name, address, phone number, social security number for every person who applies for a gun permit, with no requirement to ever delete the information."

Titus began with some rather common sense advice for the committee, no doubt lost on them and their hand picked panel.

"More importantly, today's discussion misses the point entirely. This committee should not spend time debating whether to take away Terrorists' guns, bombs, cell phones, cars, or other instruments of terrorism. If a person is a dangerous terrorist, then he should be thrown in jail. As a felon, convicted terrorists should not, and cannot under current law, own guns."

How S.1317 Works:

"An innocent citizen placed on the list (banned from buying a gun) will have no administrative recourse to ensure that he or she is removed from a list." "Furthermore, the personal information of the individual will be kept on file indefinitely."

If a person is denied his right to purchase a gun the Attorney General is not required to tell him the reason why, or even that his name appears on a list of persons banned from buying a firearm.

"...the Attorney General is not required to answer or correct erroneous information within the system."

"...even if the Attorney General explains the reason for the denial, the citizen would have no way to know that their right to appeal expires after 60 days after the notice."

"Assuming that the citizen appeals the decision in court, things only get harder and more confusing. First, the citizen must rely on summaries or a redacted version of the documents upon which the Attorney General made his decision. Neither the citizen nor his attorney has a right to see or rebut the evidence presented against him. Not even the court may consider the unredacted documents to determine whether the Attorney General acted reasonably in denying the firearms permit."

A citizen who does appeal his denial automatically loses his appeal just so long as the Attorney General can prove that his name is on a banned list regardless of whether or not the person should be on the list. Older readers recognize this as a Catch-22.

"The bill also reduces Due Process protections for gun dealers. S. 1317, strips gun dealers of their right to appeal a revoked license in court, and replaces it with the right to notice and hearing before the Attorney General." In other words, the person (Attorney General) who revoked his license in the first place becomes the judge and jury on appeal. And you thought the Soviet Union had collapsed.

"By 2009 that number (on watch lists which would become banned lists) had grown to 1.1 million identities and approximately 400,000 unique individuals. Bloated watch lists create more false positives, The lack of transparency leaves the public to wonder who these people might be, whether one out of every 750 people in the United States is a suspected terrorist, or whether the drastic increase in the database is due to poor design and over-collection."

"Based on the title of S.1317, one would think that convicted terrorists were allowed to own guns. However, nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, "convicted felons [including terrorists] , fugitives, unlawful drug users, and aliens illegally or unlawfully in the United States" are prohibited by federal law from receiving firearms."

"Denying the enumerated Constitutional Right to Bear Arms based on a secret list of suspect people is Constitutionally repugnant. The discretionary power to revoke the Second Amendment requires checks, balances, due process, and a meaningful opportunity for redress. S.1317 and S.2820 lack such due process."

S.1317 applies to all firearms; handguns, rifles and shotguns. It's companion S.2820 "Preserving Records of Terrorist & Criminal Transactions Act of 2009" is the national gun registration bill. As was mentioned earlier, it keeps records of sale for all firearms purchases which logically entails that the authors (LAUTENBERG, SCHUMER, LEVIN, REED, FEINSTEIN, and WHITEHOUSE) view all Americans as terrorists.

Members of the panel speaking on behalf of the Senate bills were the usual suspects: Senator Lautenberg (D-NJ), Representative Peter T. King (RINO NY-3), New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, New York Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly

The true nature of the legislation was summed up by one of its proponents, New York Police Commissioner Kelly who said "From the standpoint of the NYPD, it would also complement the aggressive anti-gun strategies we already have in place. Under Mayor Bloomberg’s leadership..."

The bills have nothing to do with fighting terrorists and everything to do with denying you your 2nd Amendment right to buy a gun.

corrupt
05-06-2010, 1:13 PM
Absolutely disgusting. It's not just the 2A, the bill pretty much spits in the face of what it means to live free as an American.

And to think that they're wasting time and money on this.

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 1:15 PM
S.1317 is nothing more than a PURE PERVERSION of due process.

CnCFunFactory
05-06-2010, 1:31 PM
When will it end....:(

The Director
05-06-2010, 1:34 PM
S1317:

6/22/2009--Introduced.
Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009 - Amends the federal criminal code to authorize the Attorney General to deny the transfer of a firearm or the issuance of a firearms or explosives license or permit (or revoke such license or permit) if the Attorney General: (1) determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be engaged in terrorism or has provided material support or resources for terrorism; and (2) has a reasonable belief that the transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism. Allows any individual whose firearms or explosives license application has been denied to bring legal action to challenge the denial. Extends the prohibition against the sale or distribution of firearms or explosives to include individuals whom the Attorney General has determined to be engaged in terrorist activities. Imposes criminal penalties on individuals engaged in terrorist activities who smuggle or knowingly bring firearms into the United States. Authorizes the Attorney General to withhold information in firearms and explosives license denial revocation lawsuits and from employers if the Attorney General determines that the disclosure of such information would likely compromise national security.

CHS
05-06-2010, 1:37 PM
Ahhh yes, the "watch list".

A list of people SO DANGEROUS that we can't allow them to fly in airplanes (or buy guns, apparently), but SO INNOCENT that we can't arrest them and put them in jail.

It's a bunch of horse crap.

IrishPirate
05-06-2010, 1:40 PM
guns turn people into child killing terrorists i guess......makes total sense :rolleyes:

Dr Rockso
05-06-2010, 1:46 PM
Here's the list of co-sponsors. The usual suspects, more or less. I guess the skeptics were right about Gillibrand.

Dianne Feinstein [D-CA]
Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
Carl Levin [D-MI]
Joseph Lieberman [I-CT]
Robert Menéndez [D-NJ]
Barbara Mikulski [D-MD]
John Reed [D-RI]
Charles Schumer [D-NY]
Sheldon Whitehouse [D-RI]

510dat
05-06-2010, 1:56 PM
Forget about the lobbying, look at the bill!

full text here:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-1317

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 1:57 PM
Here's the list of co-sponsors. The usual suspects, more or less. I guess the skeptics were right about Gillibrand.

Dianne Feinstein [D-CA]
Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
Carl Levin [D-MI]
Joseph Lieberman [I-CT]
Robert Menéndez [D-NJ]
Barbara Mikulski [D-MD]
John Reed [D-RI]
Charles Schumer [D-NY]
Sheldon Whitehouse [D-RI]

Surprised to see Lieberman on this, maybe I'm a little naive still, but I didn't figure him out to be a traitor.

natedogg1777
05-06-2010, 3:09 PM
Good Lord...talk about making 1984 a reality.

windrider
05-06-2010, 3:27 PM
good thing my name isnt bin laden, **** am i on the list now for typing that.

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 3:30 PM
good thing my name isnt bin laden, **** am i on the list now for typing that.

You're on the list just for DROSing a firearm :)

Maltese Falcon
05-06-2010, 3:33 PM
There was a letter in the LA Times today regarding down on their luck small communities vying to get Correctional Facilities sited in their area to boost the economy.

The writer mentioned that we are moving to a condition where we are all in prison either as prisoners or guards.....

Looks plausible if this s*** and Lieberman get their way.

Time to buy more firearms.

.

HondaMasterTech
05-06-2010, 3:37 PM
When will it end....:(

Well, the Andromeda Galaxy is on a collision course with the Milky Way. Our sun only has a few billion years left before it goes Nova. Pretty sure it will end then...

The Director
05-06-2010, 3:38 PM
And in other news, Chuck Schumer will head up the department of pre-crime.....

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 3:38 PM
There was a letter in the LA Times today regarding down on their luck small communities vying to get Correctional Facilities sited in their area to boost the economy.

The writer mentioned that we are moving to a condition where we are all in prison either as prisoners or guards.....

Looks plausible if this s*** and Lieberman get their way.

Time to buy more firearms.
.

I hate to say it, but it's **** like this that make www.prisonplanet.com seem not so :TFH: after all. Sure there's still plenty of :TFH: to go around, but they've been saying this is coming for a long time and now look where we're at. Even the loonies can be right about a few things.

RRangel
05-06-2010, 3:39 PM
The "leadership" at the LAPD has a notorious reputation for not only supporting anti-liberty and anti-self defense laws. They have outright fabricated arguments against firearms during their one sided dog & pony press conferences.

That means you can trust politically motivated LAPD officials as far as you can throw them. You can catch Chief Charlie Beck attending deplorable Brady Campaign events posted on youtube.

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 3:39 PM
And in other news, Chuck Schumer will head up the department of pre-crime.....

If that were true I think a whole lot of us would be getting our doors kicked in right about now :eek:

IrishPirate
05-06-2010, 3:46 PM
Can we get a pool going if this passes to see how long it will take for every Calguns user to get labeled as a "terrorist"? my bet is 2 months. 1 year though for every Californian.


I love that if they "suspect" you're a terrorist they can deny you.....so if one person named John Smith gets on their list, ivery person with the same name will be denied too until they pay a bunch of money and wait a long time for someone to give them a special pass. Don't think so? same thing happened and is still happening with the "No Fly List".




(I know, I've probably just made their list....:rolleyes: )

POLICESTATE
05-06-2010, 3:56 PM
(I know, I've probably just made their list....:rolleyes: )

With the MOLON LABE in your sig you've been on it for awhile :D

You didn't get that memo that was floating around a year or so ago?

JustLegalInformation
05-06-2010, 4:42 PM
Take a look at the Equal Protection argument in this brief -- you may like it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54832&d=1273135647

yellowfin
05-06-2010, 4:49 PM
The LAPD and the like minded politicians will continue this ONLY unless and until strong enough consequences are imposed upon them forcing them to stop. When you choose to do that is up to you.

Foulball
05-06-2010, 5:21 PM
Take a look at the Equal Protection argument in this brief -- you may like it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54832&d=1273135647

Ahh crap, another Gorski filing. Just what we don't need.
DAMNIT!!!!!!

--

PatriotnMore
05-06-2010, 5:33 PM
Outrageous, is this the mentality which is being promoted in government and leadership positions, to even suggest losing ones citizenship is disturbing enough, to actually think of passing legislation on the matter is crossing the line.

advocatusdiaboli
05-06-2010, 5:52 PM
I posted a lot about this on Huff Post in rebuttal of the foaming mouthed anti-gun loonies so plentiful there--a target-rich environment.

What bothers me in a nutshell is that an organization with a history of ignoring the Bill of Rights and Constitution, the FBI, gets to maintain a secret list compiled by secret criteria by secret individuals by a secret process kept secret from those on the list that will that revokes constitutional rights without oversight and due process of law. I believe similar conduct occurred in Nazi Germany with their lists of Jews--under Stalin and Pol Pot during their purges of intellectuals. The bumbling management of the No Fly List gives a peek at how incompetently this list is probably mis-handled (is that a double-negative sort of ;-). If this list existed during the Vietnam War, every student who ever even watched a war protest would have been on it, probably for life. Is my distrust of the FBI apparent? Yes and I am sure I'll be added to the list after this. Sad, sad day for America.

woodsman
05-06-2010, 5:58 PM
Tyranny is alive and well.

Cobrafreak
05-06-2010, 5:59 PM
When will it end....:(

Simple, with a war that none of us want but must be fought, or they will come to their senses, or it is so outlandish it won't happen by being rejected.

sniper5
05-06-2010, 5:59 PM
Sounds like an occupational safety policy for LAPD death squads. Yeah, I know, they don't exist anymore. . .ask anyone in LAPD. They don't have any evidence of any such thing. All that stuff is just rumor. Police corruption is a myth. . .ask any cop.

Window_Seat
05-06-2010, 6:03 PM
Noone ever mentioned here (or maybe they did, I might not have been paying enough attention) that if this passed, all gun owners who have ever DROSed any more than 1 time, and placed on a "No fly list" would eventually & effectively cripple the airline industry. If you think about it, the number of GOs in the USA + being deemed a terrorist + putting us on a "no fly list" = billions lost for the airline industry.

It wont happen.

Erik.

tuolumnejim
05-06-2010, 6:15 PM
When will it end....:(

When anyone who sponsors and signs onto anything like this is found hanging bye the neck.
(I really did hold back, honest)

advocatusdiaboli
05-06-2010, 6:16 PM
What strikes me as most eery (and history repeating) is that many liberal sheep-le on the Huff Post thought this was a good thing to protect them from terrorism--like the German people thought Hitler's Kristallnacht would restore their economic health by purging Jews--the root of all their problems. The irony of all this is that this is exactly what Bin Laden said he was trying to do--he knows he cannot take us down with his tiny group--his aim was to have us take down ourselves. And we are falling right into the trap. He's a damn clever SOB--smarter than a lot of our leaders it seems--and I hate paying that bastard a compliment but I respect a skilled adversary and he is--we ain't got him yet..

N6ATF
05-06-2010, 9:12 PM
When anyone who sponsors and signs onto anything like this is found hanging bye the neck.
(I really did hold back, honest)

I would prefer such traitors commit hara kiri out of guilt, but they are irredeemable sociopaths who enjoy crafting hostility, chaos and murder.

Apocalypsenerd
05-06-2010, 10:45 PM
Hopefully people here in CA will be angry enough still when Feinstein comes up for re-election. She's way overdue for a pink slip.

GuyW
05-06-2010, 10:53 PM
Why would anyone be concerned that only LAPD had the guns?

After all - they're bound to treat you like a King....

.

AJAX22
05-07-2010, 5:14 AM
So hypothetically is someone donated $20 to sinn feinn a long time ago... Would that make them a suspect?

Mulay El Raisuli
05-07-2010, 5:29 AM
So hypothetically is someone donated $20 to sinn feinn a long time ago... Would that make them a suspect?


No. It would make them GUILTY!!!!!!


The Raisuli

AJAX22
05-07-2010, 7:00 AM
Sinn féin is the Legitimate political arm of the IRA. They hold seats in parliment

advocatusdiaboli
05-07-2010, 7:25 AM
Sinn féin is the Legitimate political arm of the IRA. They hold seats in parliment

Legitimate in the UK--the FBI considers them the political wing of the IRA and the IRA is a terrorist organization according the State Department. THe PLO is the political wing of the terrorist organization Fatah. Would you argue that sending money to the PLO is not aid to a terrorist organization? I think not. Same here. In fact many Americans say PLO when they mean Fatah.

6114DAVE
05-07-2010, 7:51 AM
Why would anyone be concerned that only LAPD had the guns?

After all - they're bound to treat you like a King....

.

:) NICE!

TURBOELKY
05-07-2010, 8:05 AM
These people are plain and simply retarded. One day, we will need armed citizens to protect our country. The people of the United States think an attack on our homeland cant happen, 911 was just an example. With our open borders, you never know whats coming, and trying to strip our citizens of their right to bare arms, and purchase arms, could ultimately bare very poor results. Assuming this were to happen, I personally believe there would be some HUGE repercussion from not just Californians, but Americans across the US.

As far as I'm concerned, its probably China, or some major Banks pulling the strings on this one. Call me paranoid, I dont know. The US will be China owned (if it isn't already) soon anyways. They can all kiss my arse.....:chris:

ZombieTactics
05-07-2010, 8:23 AM
When anyone who sponsors and signs onto anything like this is found hanging bye the neck.
(I really did hold back, honest)
Probably unnecessary. There will come a day when these kinds of anti-gun loonies are seen for the deeply disturbed individuals they are. They'll get the same kind of attention afforded to those who think the moon landing was a hoax, or that they are the reincarnation of Napoleon.

Human history being what it is, we seem to eventually get it right. "Eventually" may mean decades or even centuries, but reality and truth tend to support each other with a slow, relentless, Darwinian certainty.

Roadrunner
05-07-2010, 8:25 AM
The "leadership" at the LAPD has a notorious reputation for not only supporting anti-liberty and anti-self defense laws. They have outright fabricated arguments against firearms during their one sided dog & pony press conferences.

That means you can trust politically motivated LAPD officials as far as you can throw them. You can catch Chief Charlie Beck attending deplorable Brady Campaign events posted on youtube.

The firearms industry could do what Ronnie Barrett (http://www.thegunzone.com/shot/barrett.html) did. Then we will see how fast they back pedal on their anti-gun BS.

advocatusdiaboli
05-07-2010, 8:45 AM
What blows my mind is the cartels and coyotes ship in tons of drugs, auto weapons, and people with impunity. How much does c4 weigh? A stinger missile? a tactical nuke Russia lost track of? Yet with all that danger, we had Bush/Cheney/Obama/Gates focusing on Times Square and airplanes. I think we've jsut been very, very lucky so far and that the guy in Times Square was an idiot and not well trained. I hope our luck lasts long enough until we serious about border control.

CHS
05-07-2010, 9:39 AM
The firearms industry could do what Ronnie Barrett (http://www.thegunzone.com/shot/barrett.html) did. Then we will see how fast they back pedal on their anti-gun BS.

Problem is, California is only second to Texas in firearms sales.

As much as people want to hate California, there's just too much money here for them to turn a blind eye to.

I respect Ronnie Barrett for what he did, but the fact of the matter is that his rifle's were already banned here. He wasn't losing any money on new sales here, just warranty work.

Roadrunner
05-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Problem is, California is only second to Texas in firearms sales.

As much as people want to hate California, there's just too much money here for them to turn a blind eye to.

I respect Ronnie Barrett for what he did, but the fact of the matter is that his rifle's were already banned here. He wasn't losing any money on new sales here, just warranty work.

I don't care how little or how much he's losing in sales by not selling to government entities in our state. The fact of the matter is, he is losing money. At 3000 to 5000 or more per rifle that adds up. Presuming for a moment that most police departments will use a Barrett rifle, when you consider the number of 100,000 + population cities and the 58 counties that would buy these rifles, and then consider multiple purchases of the rifles, parts and maintenance, the amount seems significant to me.

Sinixstar
05-07-2010, 11:10 AM
Surprised to see Lieberman on this, maybe I'm a little naive still, but I didn't figure him out to be a traitor.

Why are you surprised to see lieberman? Hell - he's got legislation to completely strip the citizenship of anyone accused of terrorism, or being associated with terrorists.

The thing that really stinks about this - is a LOT of people support this. Gun owners, NRA Members, the general public. You start mixing the terror card and gun control - and you're going to get some support. Especially given recent events.

The thing that bugs me about this - is it would pretty much be a tip of the hand that we're aware of who these people are. Planning something illegal? want to know if the gov't is on to you? Try and go buy a gun. If you get denied - hand off your plans and get the hell out of dodge before they come knocking on your door.

N6ATF
05-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Probably unnecessary. There will come a day when these kinds of anti-gun loonies are seen for the deeply disturbed individuals they are. They'll get the same kind of attention afforded to those who think the moon landing was a hoax, or that they are the reincarnation of Napoleon.

Only thing is, conspiracy theorists and those who believe in reincarnation rarely get people killed.