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Surveyor
03-06-2006, 4:04 PM
Okay, would it be legal to build an AR pistol with an off list reciever if the mag was pinned and you registered it as a handgun?

MsJamie
03-06-2006, 4:10 PM
Such a pistol would be legal. The problem is getting it in the first place; it's not on the approved handgun list.

So, unless you brought an off-list AR pistol lower with you when you moved to California, it's unlikely you'd be able to make one.

Rumpled
03-06-2006, 4:14 PM
We've been thru this one a bunch, search to see some of the history.

Basically, no - it's not appproved. If you can find one instate you could PPT.
You could also possibly have someone make a singleshot and sell that to you.

leelaw
03-06-2006, 5:05 PM
NO! NOT LEGAL!

An AR-15 "style" receiver has not been approved for sale in CA (the drop-test thing) so even though you could register it as a pistol (don't do it) and could build it up with a fixed mag and be within the law (physically) it is ILLEGAL to build a NON-CERTIFIED pistol in CA.

Don't do it!

EBWhite
03-06-2006, 5:27 PM
You can get it two ways, a PPT from one imported into the state or buying it was a stripped rifle receiver and having the company reclassify it as a pistol in their logbook. Some will do this and some won't, ATF has approved this in writing. Various letters from the DOJ have approved making a pistol as long as it is for personal use and not resold. It is very much in the grey area but it has been done.

kemasa
03-06-2006, 6:09 PM
You can get it two ways, a PPT from one imported into the state or buying it was a stripped rifle receiver and having the company reclassify it as a pistol in their logbook. Some will do this and some won't, ATF has approved this in writing. Various letters from the DOJ have approved making a pistol as long as it is for personal use and not resold. It is very much in the grey area but it has been done.

The problem is that any pistol which uses an AR lower will most likely fall into the a-salt weapons law and can not be transfered and you can not create a new a-salt weapon.

jojo760
03-06-2006, 6:17 PM
When I got my off list lowers, both of the megas say pistol. Does that make a difference? I'm planning on building them up as rifles.

PIRATE14
03-06-2006, 6:24 PM
When I got my off list lowers, both of the megas say pistol. Does that make a difference? I'm planning on building them up as rifles.

These were probably sold to you as rifles/long guns on the 4473 and DROS so they are rifles but chk w/ your FFL where u got them from.....

Surveyor
03-06-2006, 7:24 PM
NO! NOT LEGAL!

An AR-15 "style" receiver has not been approved for sale in CA (the drop-test thing)

Yeah, I forgot about that part. But I'm willing to bet that Vulcan and Bushy might market CA versions of their pistols in the future. If all of this "lower" frenzy hasn't shown them our love for the AR series then I don't know what will. If enough of us ask for them they'll make them.

Rumpled
03-06-2006, 7:58 PM
But I'm willing to bet that Vulcan and Bushy might market CA versions of their pistols in the future. If all of this "lower" frenzy hasn't shown them our love for the AR series then I don't know what will. If enough of us ask for them they'll make them.

Don't hold your breath on that. Many manufs have been asked to add pistols for CA testing but haven't. But, then again, they just might.

superhondaz50
03-06-2006, 8:44 PM
you cant build one with a detachable mag (AW) or a fixed mag (not approved) but you can build a single shot one with a DPMS single shot lower. Single shots are now exempt from testing.

tenpercentfirearms
03-06-2006, 9:16 PM
Are you guys forgeting that the AW list specifically bans pistols with magazines outside of the pistol grip? Nevermind, you should just have to fix the magazine.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/genchar.htm

EBWhite
03-06-2006, 9:29 PM
but if the logbook says pistol and you register with it if these ever get listed as a PISTOL on the form, you would be exempt from the pistol outside the grip thing...

tenpercentfirearms
03-06-2006, 10:24 PM
If the log book says pistol, then a dealer can't sell it to you unless it is on the California List or it is an exempt pistol. Even then, you would have to retain the fixed magazine and top load it because it would be a Category 4 assault weapon. :D

shopkeep
03-06-2006, 10:32 PM
you cant build one with a detachable mag (AW) or a fixed mag (not approved) but you can build a single shot one with a DPMS single shot lower. Single shots are now exempt from testing.

That is quite possibly one of the cooler things about the single shot exemption I've heard of yet. You can handload too so you wouldn't have to break open the action. If I had more cash I might look into that.

EBWhite
03-06-2006, 11:13 PM
I would think you could purchase it on the basis of making a single shot conversion or ppt would exempt everything and you could either fix it or run no evils.

shopkeep
03-07-2006, 12:37 AM
I would think you could purchase it on the basis of making a single shot conversion or ppt would exempt everything and you could either fix it or run no evils.

Wait a minute... I think you're on to something there. AR-15 and AK-47 recievers are lawful to be purchased stripped and imported into the state because there are pathways to lawful builds.

Therefore, would it not follow that off-list handguns such as the new XD45 could be imported into the state to build single shot versions? Perhaps there are certain mods that could be made out of state to single shot it.

What laws exist regarding the conversion of single shot pistols into multiple shot pistols? I am aware that once purchased, one can mod a handgun into one that isn't on the list (i.e. convert a Desert Eagle to .50 AE or remove a chamber load/magazine disconnect) provided it is for personal use.

Hence would it not therefore be lawful to import an AR-15 stripped lower with a bobsled pinned into it or other single shot mod?

oh yes, we're going to have fun with this one :D!

Rumpled
03-07-2006, 12:44 AM
I think only a dedicated single shot receiver would pass the smell test.
And, you would have to buy the complete pistol with a SS since the law specifies barrel length.

EBWhite
03-07-2006, 12:56 AM
Well shop,

The other point is that Allison wrote the letter that said you can make a unsafe pistol as long as it is for personal use only..
Now a way to get around this whole importation deal is buy the thing private party or go and buy a rifle recevier and have the maker change their atf logbook to pistol...
Then you create a single shot now or after the list is updated and you can register it on the AW form as a pistol since it would match the atf logbook which now states pistol. Remember i think this conversion would only work since you are making it for yourself and never to resell...

i do think we are on to something

shopkeep
03-07-2006, 1:32 AM
Well shop,

The other point is that Allison wrote the letter that said you can make a unsafe pistol as long as it is for personal use only..
Now a way to get around this whole importation deal is buy the thing private party or go and buy a rifle recevier and have the maker change their atf logbook to pistol...
Then you create a single shot now or after the list is updated and you can register it on the AW form as a pistol since it would match the atf logbook which now states pistol. Remember i think this conversion would only work since you are making it for yourself and never to resell...

i do think we are on to something

So here's what I'm thinking:

And epoxied 10 round pinned mag gets you DOJ approval and says something is NOT an Assault Weapon. Therefore could an epoxied single shot mod like the bobsled satisfy the single shot requirement? Could you then remove the epoxy on the single shot pistol and create a 10 shot fixed mag pistol after it was lawfully registered and possessed as a single shot pistol?

We're definitely on to something here.

jmlivingston
03-07-2006, 7:37 AM
Hhmm..... now I'm thinking, too much for not having my morning coffee yet. But the .50BMG is a RIFLE ban, correct? How about a single-shot .50BMG pistol built on a DPMS single-shot lower? :D

Wonder how that recoil would be..... :eek:

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2006, 8:23 AM
Did the .50 BMG legislation specify rifles? I thought it banned firearms based on shooting the .50 BMG round. You might want to check on that as a .50 BMG pistol still shoots a .50 BMG.

Mike Searson
03-07-2006, 8:41 AM
So here's what I'm thinking:

And epoxied 10 round pinned mag gets you DOJ approval and says something is NOT an Assault Weapon. Therefore could an epoxied single shot mod like the bobsled satisfy the single shot requirement? Could you then remove the epoxy on the single shot pistol and create a 10 shot fixed mag pistol after it was lawfully registered and possessed as a single shot pistol?

We're definitely on to something here.

That applies to rifles only.

So called assault weapons that are pistols have an entirely different set of criteria.

What kills the AR type platform in this regard is the magazine outside the pistol grip, regardless if it is fixed or not.

I doubt you'll get an Olympic exemption, either.

A single shot may be the way to go...but you'd be better off with a TC Contender in 223 if that's the case.

Mike Searson
03-07-2006, 8:43 AM
Did the .50 BMG legislation specify rifles? I thought it banned firearms based on shooting the .50 BMG round. You might want to check on that as a .50 BMG pistol still shoots a .50 BMG.

.50 BMG pistols are classified as Destructive Devices by the NFA.

If you're allowed to own a Streetsweeper, Striker 12, USAS shotgun, RPG-7, LAW, AT-4, etc...by all means go for it.

ohsmily
03-07-2006, 8:44 AM
Hhmm..... now I'm thinking, too much for not having my morning coffee yet. But the .50BMG is a RIFLE ban, correct? How about a single-shot .50BMG pistol built on a DPMS single-shot lower? :D

Wonder how that recoil would be..... :eek:

It bans the cartridge. And even if you could have a 50BMG pistol....no thanks...

jmlivingston
03-07-2006, 9:02 AM
The CA state regulation was in particular to rifles, I wasn't aware that there was an NFA restriction on them as well. But yeah, I sure as heck wouldn't want to fire that round in a pistol!

John

ldivinag
03-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Are you guys forgeting that the AW list specifically bans pistols with magazines outside of the pistol grip? Nevermind, you should just have to fix the magazine.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/genchar.htm


just tell them it for the olympic competition...:rolleyes:

EBWhite
03-07-2006, 12:36 PM
you can have a single shot but if you just have the stripped lower, I would think you would be okay until it is registered as an AW. Until then, it would need that single shot or need to be in the closet waiting..

EBWhite
03-10-2006, 11:51 PM
I just just looking over the laws and here it is:
12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

Now, lets break this down...
These things are a no-no:
who manufactures or causes to be manufactured---Only if it is non single shot.
imports into the state for sale---Not a problem if you don't resale
keeps for sale---Same as above, non-issue
offers---not a problem
exposes for sale---same as last four
gives---same as any pre-ban AW
lends---Again, see above...
any unsafe handgun...........

If you can find a PPT pistol receiver, wonderful! However, unlikely, Now, as long as you make a single shot you are not breaking any of the conditions of penal code. Those AR pump uppers come to mind, or a permenantly blocked gas port....

Surveyor
03-11-2006, 9:12 AM
You know, the more I think about this, the more it sounds like a bad idea. Since Kevlar isn't designed to stand up to rifles it would be a pistol capable of defeating a cops vest. The media really would pay attention to the "off-list" thing then. "Highly concealable, cop killer assault pistols that are many times more powerful than Uzis' and Tec-9s' " would be the headline.

TonyM
03-11-2006, 9:18 AM
You know, the more I think about this, the more it sounds like a bad idea. Since Kevlar isn't designed to stand up to rifles it would be a pistol capable of defeating a cops vest. The media really would pay attention to the "off-list" thing then. "Highly concealable, cop killer assault pistols that are many times more powerful than Uzis' and Tec-9s' " would be the headline.


Not likely with the velocity loss from such a short barrel. It would be alot like the FN5.7, which is still on the approved list.

xenophobe
03-11-2006, 10:50 AM
If the receiver is not listed as a pistol by the manufacturer AND you have not DROSed it as a pistol do NOT even think about doing this.

As far as I know, NONE of the AK receivers are classified as pistol receivers, and even a PISTOL marked MEGA cannot be built up as a pistol, because for you to have bought it here, you must have DROSed it as a rifle.

A DPMS single shot receiver is a rifle receiver. Even if they would reclassify one as a pistol, you would still need to DROS it as a pistol here... How would you do this legally? Without going into detail, there is no way you can get one here in California without breaking or stretching some law that can be used against you later on.

Making a pistol out of a rifle receiver is creating a Short Barreled Rifle and is illegal in the state, and without ATF approval would be illegal federally.

Mike Searson
03-11-2006, 11:05 AM
Making a pistol out of a rifle receiver is creating a Short Barreled Rifle and is illegal in the state, and without ATF approval would be illegal federally.

Technically if it's a stripped receiver that has never had a stock it would not be an SBR.

It would be an AOW. Don't know if you follow NFA weapons, but there are some short barreled shotguns made in this way that have only a pistol grip and no stock that are classed as any other weapon.

The only time a pistol falls into this category is when a vertical foregrip is mounted, though.

Maybe an 80% built into a single shot and not milling out the buffer tube might fit this criteria...but again...why? You can buy a TC Contender in 223 for less than the price of a decent upper.

:dunno:

xenophobe
03-11-2006, 12:03 PM
There's been great discussion at length on this on HKPro.com... in regards to turning DOJ HKs into MP5's... it would be an AOW if you removed the stock and added a front pistol grip. If you just made a pistol out of the rifle, without a stock or with a removable or retracting stock.... without a front vertical grip, it would still fall under a SBR, as it is registered as a rifle from the manufacturer. At least from what I rememeber of the discussion.


EDIT:

For me, I would prefer to go the SBR route with a pre-ban lower as it allows a lower to be used as a pre-ban rifle, a SBR (i.e. 14.5-inch M4 Carbine or shorter), a pre-ban AR-15 pistol, a AOW, or just about anything else. An AOW can only be an AOW, i.e. it can not be used as a pistol or as a rifle or carbine.


The second option you have in regards to an AR-15 pistol is to build a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) AR-15. Once the lower is registered as a SBR you can then remove the stock and replace it with a pistol buffer and your short 7-inch upper and use it in a PISTOL configuration or keep the stock! With a pre-ban lower you can use it as a pre-ban short barreled rifle including the flash suppressor, bayonet lug, etc. If you use a POST BAN AR-15 and register it as a SBR, you have a number of shortcomings including the fact that you can not use a bayonet lug, flash suppressor, or collapsible stock BUT there is no reason that you can not still use it in a PISTOL configuration! Because this is a SBR and NOT a pistol, the SAW laws do not apply as they would to a post ban Semi Auto Pistol as far as detachable magazine and pistol weight. NOTE: I am confirming these understandings with the ATF!!!

The AOW is a unique category for the AR-15 as the AR-15 will have a forward and rear pistol grip. An AOW is defined to be "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 USC sec. 5845(e). The ATF has made the decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW based on the gun a) being concealable and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal court has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW.

Taken from:
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

I stand by my initial reponse as being valid.

EBWhite
03-11-2006, 12:26 PM
You guys are very right. The whole thing is questionable. Now, lets say you buy a receiver that is Dros'd as a rifle and you find a company willing to change their manufacturers logbook to pistol (as you know this log book is the only one that matters in the end on the federal level)
You build the receiver into a rifle config for shooting in CA but when you get into the free states, you throw your pistol upper on. Its an idea. Federally you would have a grandfathered pistol receiver. It is an idea.

xenophobe
03-11-2006, 12:33 PM
You guys are very right. The whole thing is questionable. Now, lets say you buy a receiver that is Dros'd as a rifle and you find a company willing to change their manufacturers logbook to pistol (as you know this log book is the only one that matters in the end on the federal level)
You build the receiver into a rifle config for shooting in CA but when you get into the free states, you throw your pistol upper on. Its an idea. Federally you would have a grandfathered pistol receiver. It is an idea.

On the 4473, if it states RIFLE, then you'll be in a world of trouble in case of a NTC request for a copy of the 4473... they generally will not ask for a 4473 unless they're going to consider prosecuting you though. 4473 requests are very uncommon.

EBWhite
03-11-2006, 12:46 PM
The 4473 (federal) is only kept with the selling dealer though and according to the ATF (federal), changing a configuration is 100% okay as long as it has never been put together before. No question all federal laws in the case we are talking about are being followed. However, the California part of it gets a little to cloudy...

xenophobe
03-11-2006, 12:50 PM
Yes, but if for some reason they see the firearm being sold as a rifle on a 4473, it may be subject to further scrutiny.... Have the receiver listed as a pistol on that, and there is nothing to worry about....

But this doesn't really apply to California residents, as our laws are more strict, and won't let you buy an AR receiver as a pistol...

Stanze
03-11-2006, 1:46 PM
Let's just say you're able to buy your AR pistol legally.

Would a folded down bi-pod, or Grippod be construed as a forward vertical grip and thus subject to CA/A.O.W. law?

onley11
03-11-2006, 9:03 PM
To make a pistol you have to have the fixed mag per pistols with detachable mags outside the pistol grips are aw's automatically. Since the mag is fixed, it doesn't matter if you have a forward grip or not. But the only was any of this is happening is if Bushy or Vulcan certifies a carbon 15 pistol as drop safe and cali legal.