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jm838
05-04-2010, 7:11 PM
If I were to have someone create a custom firearm receiver for me, would this be legal? Or would hiring them to do so constitute buying a firearm without going through an FFL? Has anyone tried doing this before with any success?

Barabas
05-04-2010, 7:55 PM
You can make your own, but you can't have someone else do it for you, legally, without a transfer being involved.

Rover
05-04-2010, 7:58 PM
The person doing the machine work would have to be an FFL, as they are manufacturing a firearm for sale, same as any of the OLL manufacturers out there.

Just-in
05-04-2010, 8:15 PM
How about an 80% paperweight?

Table Rock Arms
05-04-2010, 8:15 PM
If the guy creating the receiver for you is a 07 FFL and you DROS it, then no problem. If not then you have a couple problems. you can machine your own gun, but the guy would be breaking the law by making it for you. Also, depending on how "custom" it is then it might be considered a zip gun.

jm838
05-04-2010, 9:18 PM
How about an 80% paperweight?

I like this. What if I had someone mill me a partial receiver, then I finished it by drilling some holes and grinding off some superfluous metal from the back?

Also, depending on how "custom" it is then it might be considered a zip gun.

What exactly defines a "zip gun"? If it is appearance, this gun would not look unprofessional, improvised, or disguised in any way.

I really want to AOW a double barrel shotgun, and I figure building one from scratch is the only way to do it unless I somehow come across an Ithaca Auto & Burglar. I have no experience machining parts, and I really don't want to have to get a job at a machine shop just to learn; no gun is worth that much of my time. So, if I ever do this I need someone to make the part for me. Are there any FFL's in CA who do this kind of thing? Or is 80% a viable option? Remember, if I AOW this gun it will fall under some pretty strict scrutiny.

Also, now that I brought up AOW, I would build this up as a full-length shotgun with a pistol grip and no stock, then work on getting the AOW paper work finished. Does this work?

Josh3239
05-04-2010, 10:05 PM
I like this. What if I had someone mill me a partial receiver, then I finished it by drilling some holes and grinding off some superfluous metal from the back?

Well that is the hot question, what will the ATF consider a non-gun and a receiver/frame. Here is an interesting piece from Yellow Logic about it, who's 80% lowers are approved by the ATF:

"Machined in compliance with recent determination 903050:MMK-3311/2008-680, "Generally, if the receiver-blank can not accept a barrel and the fire-control components can not be installed (or it can not easily be modified to accept such components), it is not a firearm." And determinations 903050:MMK-3311/2009-323 and /2009-467, "To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)." "

jm838
05-04-2010, 10:24 PM
"Machined in compliance with recent determination 903050:MMK-3311/2008-680, "Generally, if the receiver-blank can not accept a barrel and the fire-control components can not be installed (or it can not easily be modified to accept such components), it is not a firearm." And determinations 903050:MMK-3311/2009-323 and /2009-467, "To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)." "

Well, as much as this sounds like a total pain in the a**, it sounds entirely possible. A fancy piece of metal in need of a few drilled holes could probably be contracted out pretty cheap, and would not be considered a firearm. I can handle a power drill myself. Something like this probably wouldn't be too bad:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=167790943

Obviously that's single-barrel, but you get the picture. Minus the holes, it's a paperweight.

There may be a way to get AOW double barrels after all :43:

ke6guj
05-04-2010, 10:31 PM
I like this. What if I had someone mill me a partial receiver, then I finished it by drilling some holes and grinding off some superfluous metal from the back?if they machined it to a point in which ATF ruled that it wasn't a receiver (basically known as an 80% receiver), yes, you could then take posession of it without needing to use an FFL, and could finish the machine work yourself.


What exactly defines a "zip gun"? If it is appearance, this gun would not look unprofessional, improvised, or disguised in any way.

per CA PC:

12020(c)(10) As used in this section, a "zip gun" means any weapon or device which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(B) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(D) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.


A registered AOW is exempt from the zip gun law.



I really want to AOW a double barrel shotgun, and I figure building one from scratch is the only way to do it unless I somehow come across an Ithaca Auto & Burglar. I have no experience machining parts, and I really don't want to have to get a job at a machine shop just to learn; no gun is worth that much of my time. So, if I ever do this I need someone to make the part for me. Are there any FFL's in CA who do this kind of thing? Or is 80% a viable option? Remember, if I AOW this gun it will fall under some pretty strict scrutiny.finding someone with the abiltiy to machine a SxS receiver for you, and the willingness to mess around with trying to stay below "80%" and not be considered an manufacturer. I doubt you will easily find someone willing to do so. YOu may have better luck finding an 07FFL willing to make you a 100% receiver compatible with an SxS parts kit you provide. Then have that AOW'ed.

jm838
05-04-2010, 11:03 PM
finding someone with the abiltiy to machine a SxS receiver for you, and the willingness to mess around with trying to stay below "80%" and not be considered an manufacturer. I doubt you will easily find someone willing to do so. YOu may have better luck finding an 07FFL willing to make you a 100% receiver compatible with an SxS parts kit you provide. Then have that AOW'ed.

Perhaps that would be the appropriate route. I would imagine a regular 01FFL could do the same though, no? If I can't find the proper FFL, I guess I could learn some basic machining skills and do this myself, I even have a friend with the equipment (though I have doubts he'd allow me to monkey around with it), but I don't know how hard a receiver is to make. I've worked with tools in the past, but never complex metalwork. I'm sure there's an FFL somewhere who could do this, though, it's just a matter of price. A regular shop probably wouldn't charge me much, an FFL who knows what he's doing could charge me whatever he wants, as he doesn't have much competition.

None of this would be an issue if CA just allowed SBS. This state is lucky it has good entertainment and perfect weather, otherwise I'd be out in a second.

smt77
05-05-2010, 12:06 AM
Just go out and buy a lower?

destro360
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
im not arguing the law i just wanted to comment because i find it to be very interesting that one man can buy an "80% piece of aluminum" and without ever selling it lending it or giving it away, but by law the simple act of another man doing some work on it then basically gives the other man possession and responsibility to then sell/transfer the piece of aluminum back to the man who paid for and owns it in the first F'in place. make any sense? not really, except to create legal hurtles and means of generating revenue....

ke6guj
05-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Just go out and buy a lower?did you read the thread? Nobody sells the stripped receiver that he needs.

jm838
05-05-2010, 1:16 AM
Actually, it would appear that there are many FFL's with milling experience. I doubt this receiver would be difficult to reproduce. This may be a viable option. I seriously doubt I'll have the money for it any time soon though. Maybe I'll do this as a graduation gift for myself when I finish college, unless we manage to gain legal access to SBS's by then.

GuyW
05-05-2010, 7:37 AM
Do a search here for zipguns....it is a particular definition - basically to avoid making an illegal gun in CA, it must be a copy of a gun which was commercially sold in the US....
.

Cobrafreak
05-05-2010, 11:35 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are allowed either 2 or 4 guns a year custom made by YOU for your OWN personal use.

Meplat
05-05-2010, 11:39 AM
Just screams creative innovation, doesn't it! How better to promote progress through interstate commerce.


Do a search here for zipguns....it is a particular definition - basically to avoid making an illegal gun in CA, it must be a copy of a gun which was commercially sold in the US....
.

ke6guj
05-05-2010, 11:44 AM
Do a search here for zipguns....it is a particular definition - basically to avoid making an illegal gun in CA, it must be a copy of a gun which was commercially sold in the US....
.

I posted the definition of a zip gun a couple posts above yours. In the OP's case, he wants to duplicate an existing SxS action, so it should not be considered a zip gun. Plus, if he gets his AOW approval before he makes the receiver, even if CA considered it a zip gun, he'd be exempt due to the AOW status.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are allowed either 2 or 4 guns a year custom made by YOU for your OWN personal use.incorrect. There is no quantified limit to the number of firearms that one can make for person use. You could make 25+ firearms if you wanted to. However, if ATF/CADOJ decided that you were making them in order to sell them, then you would have issues.

jm838
05-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Anyone ever reverse-engineered a receiver like this before? Is there a precedent?

Barabas
05-05-2010, 12:35 PM
hubel458 who occasionally posts in his 12ga. Break action from Hell thread, has made custom falling block receivers for some of his reloading experiments, which is likely more complicated than the SxS receiver you want to reproduce.

You would likely best be served by visiting the Home Gunsmith forum: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi

LOTS of experience to draw from there, and there are quite a few folks who have successfully completed projects that required lots of reverse engineering. You may even find someone local to you that will let you rent machine time in his shop to finish any work that needs to be done to turn a paperweight into a self-built receiver.

CHS
05-05-2010, 2:58 PM
Do a search here for zipguns....it is a particular definition - basically to avoid making an illegal gun in CA, it must be a copy of a gun which was commercially sold in the US....
.

This is not true, actually. The zip gun law is pretty easy to read and basically only applies to Title 2 firearms. You can invent a new gun entirely, and as long as it's Title 1 (no tax owed) it's good to go in CA. (assuming no other laws like AW prohibitions are broken).

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are allowed either 2 or 4 guns a year custom made by YOU for your OWN personal use.

Or 100. Or 1000. You can make a million guns a year if you want to. There is no prohibition on the quantity except determined by what your time and pocketbook allows.

socalblue
05-05-2010, 3:50 PM
I am not aware of any domestic commercial SxS shotguns being made these days, so it would need to be an import. Talk to Stoeger & see if they will import one with a pistol grip instead of stock (May even be a good new SKU to go along with the "tactical SxS" they have now). Get your form 1/4 approved & chop the barrels. Cost? about 1000% less than a custom gig.

ke6guj
05-05-2010, 4:27 PM
I am not aware of any domestic commercial SxS shotguns being made these days, so it would need to be an import. Talk to Stoeger & see if they will import one with a pistol grip instead of stock (May even be a good new SKU to go along with the "tactical SxS" they have now). Get your form 1/4 approved & chop the barrels. Cost? about 1000% less than a custom gig.that is the problem, I don't think they can import a PG-only "shotgun" without running afoul of the sporting purposes import regs. An 07FFL/02SOT talked to every manufacturer/importer of SxS and O/U shotguns at SHOT a couple years ago and was unable to get anybody to sell him some PG-only shotguns. He was even willing to buy an entire production run if neccessary, no dice.

CHS
05-05-2010, 5:06 PM
that is the problem, I don't think they can import a PG-only "shotgun" without running afoul of the sporting purposes import regs. An 07FFL/02SOT talked to every manufacturer/importer of SxS and O/U shotguns at SHOT a couple years ago and was unable to get anybody to sell him some PG-only shotguns. He was even willing to buy an entire production run if neccessary, no dice.

Hrmmm...

I wonder if they could import receivers for repair/replacement? :)

jm838
05-05-2010, 10:58 PM
I read up on milling a little bit, and with CAD it doesn't sound too hard. A few measurements here and there, and something as simple as a shotgun receiver wouldn't be hard to model on a computer (I have done some very basic work with 3D modelling software). I bet if I did the CAD work myself and came up with something even remotely usable I could find someone willing to let me use a machine at a reasonable price. I'll need to get involved with Home Gunsmith when I'm ready to do this, but yeah, I think this is feasible. If I succeed with my lack of technical knowledge, that would mean anyone else on here could do the same, and then we're set. AOW's for everyone!

motorhead
05-06-2010, 2:00 AM
you could have someone HELP you do it, like at a build party. you actually have to put your hands on the work. 80% mfrs. usually get a "not a firearm" letter from atf before going into full production, so trying to have someone do an 80% as a one off could lead to problems. there is no firm criteria as to when a reciever becomes a firearm. the only way to guaruntee safety would be to copy an existing 80%.

jm838
05-06-2010, 7:52 AM
you could have someone HELP you do it, like at a build party.

I was thinking about this. If someone does a CAD image of the part, then the machine does the tricky part, right? So, technically speaking, if I put the part in place and hit the start button on the machine, I manufactured the part, right?

jm838
05-06-2010, 8:02 AM
Another thought: if someone who isn't an FFL were to mill the part for me, could they then transfer it to me through an FFL? That seems like an easy solution if I can't gain access to tools.

Barabas
05-06-2010, 10:45 AM
I was thinking about this. If someone does a CAD image of the part, then the machine does the tricky part, right? So, technically speaking, if I put the part in place and hit the start button on the machine, I manufactured the part, right?

I would feel comfortable defending myself in federal court against an interpretation that did not have me as the manufacturer, in this case, so long as I was present for the entire machining process.

Another thought: if someone who isn't an FFL were to mill the part for me, could they then transfer it to me through an FFL? That seems like an easy solution if I can't gain access to tools.

No, but if you were to build a receiver for personal use, properly mark it and then later on decide to sell it, you will do the transfer through an FFL, legally.

Do you see the difference? Someone can't make it with the intent to sell without an FFL07. It's an important distinction that you need to observe before you head down this path. There are no easy solutions, which is why manufacturing for personal use isn't a commonly discussed topic on Calguns. 80% hasn't been defined sharply enough to make the legal-eagles feel comfortable going to bat for you should you run afowl of an incorrect interpretation of the law by the prosecuting party.

I'm not a lawyer, attorney, judge, DA, etc., and I haven't made a homemade receiver yet. If anything has changed WRT my characterization of the CGF's stance on 80% or home built receivers, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me, which would be welcomed.

jm838
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
Someone can't make it with the intent to sell without an FFL07.

Oops! I already knew that, but there are so many issues at play here it gets hard to keep track. Thanks for the reminder.

I guess the only way this is happening is if I either play an active role in the machining process, do it all myself, or find an FFL with a milling machine.

At this point, I want to do this more because I can than because I want the gun. I find it kind of funny that this is what we have to do in CA, when in any other state I could just take a pipecutter to the gun and be done in ten minutes.

Barabas
05-06-2010, 12:22 PM
Not without a tax stamp. These are federal rules you are playing with, the California stuff is small beans compared to dealing with the BATF&E and the IRS.

jm838
05-06-2010, 1:18 PM
Not without a tax stamp. These are federal rules you are playing with, the California stuff is small beans compared to dealing with the BATF&E and the IRS.

Yeah, for sure. The tax stamp is not to be screwed with, I read that they charge you with tax evasion on top of the weapons charges. Fun stuff.

Obtaining the tax stamp doesn't strike me as particularly difficult, mainly because the feds don't hate our guns nearly as much as the state of California does. Given, I'll likely have to set up a gun trust when I do this. Maybe Hunt will be sheriff by then though. I could imagine him signing some NFA forms... maybe...

CHS
05-06-2010, 1:59 PM
Not without a tax stamp. These are federal rules you are playing with, the California stuff is small beans compared to dealing with the BATF&E and the IRS.

Yeah, but obtaining the tax stamp in most states is as easy as sending in the check and waiting.